Sunday Pick: Protecting your time with Linda Babcock | WorkLife with Adam Grant

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Sunday Pick: Protecting Your Time with Linda Babcock | WorkLife with Adam Grant"

Release Date: August 10, 2025

In this enlightening episode of WorkLife with Adam Grant, host Adam Grant engages in a deep and meaningful conversation with Linda Babcock, a professor emerita of economics at Carnegie Mellon University and co-author of "The No Club." This episode delves into the complexities of setting boundaries, the societal pressures surrounding saying no, and effective strategies for protecting one's time both personally and professionally.

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1. Introduction to the No Club

Linda Babcock introduces the concept of the No Club, a supportive group designed to help individuals set and maintain healthy boundaries by learning to say no. Originating from Linda's personal struggle with overcommitment, the club serves as a collective intervention for those overwhelmed by the demands of their professional and personal lives.

Linda Babcock [02:39]: "The No Club was born because I wasn't getting time to do my work. So, I reached out to a bunch of my friends... and we've been meeting for the last 15 years to talk about the things we've agreed to that we probably shouldn't have."

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2. Gender Differences in Task Allocation

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on how gender dynamics influence the distribution of non-promotable tasks in the workplace. Linda and Adam explore the tendency for women to take on more of these responsibilities, which often go unrecognized and can hinder career advancement.

Rose [06:43]: "Women on average press the button 50% more times than men do. It's not that women are better at it, but they're more likely to take for the team."

This disparity highlights the societal expectations placed on women to be accommodating and supportive, often at the expense of their own professional growth.

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3. Impact of Non-Promotable Tasks on Careers

Linda presents compelling research illustrating how non-promotable tasks disproportionately affect women’s career trajectories. By dedicating over 200 more hours per year to such tasks compared to their male counterparts, women effectively reduce the time available for promotable work that is essential for career advancement.

Rose [10:13]: "Women spent more than 200 hours more than men did per year doing work that the firm had classified as non-promotable."

This substantial time investment not only limits their professional opportunities but also contributes to increased stress and burnout.

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4. Strategies for Saying No

To combat the ingrained difficulty of declining additional responsibilities, Linda and Adam discuss practical strategies that individuals can adopt. One notable method is the 24-hour rule, which allows individuals to delay their response to requests, providing ample time to assess commitments without succumbing to immediate pressure.

Rose [16:07]: "I have a 24-hour rule... if I think I might say yes, I have to wait 24 hours to more calmly think about if this is really a good decision."

Additionally, Linda emphasizes the importance of considering opportunity costs, encouraging individuals to visualize what they must forgo when agreeing to new tasks.

Rose [17:47]: "Pick up the picture of your children and say, 'I'm going to be commenting on this paper over the weekend... I'm not going to take you to the park.'"

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5. Organizational Solutions for Equitable Task Allocation

Beyond individual strategies, Linda advocates for organizational-level changes to ensure a fair distribution of non-promotable tasks. She suggests implementing systems such as rotating responsibilities, random assignments, or integrating these tasks into formal job descriptions to prevent them from being unfairly burdened on certain employees.

Linda Babcock [11:06]: "Identify all these non-promotable tasks, put someone in charge of allocating them, and make sure that allocation is fair and even."

Such systemic changes are crucial for cultivating a work environment where all employees have equal opportunities to focus on promotable work.

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6. Developing Personal Policies

Linda and Adam highlight the significance of personal policies in managing one's time effectively. By clearly defining what one will and won't commit to, individuals can navigate their responsibilities with greater intention and alignment with their personal values.

Rose [23:22]: "Are you doing the right non-promotable work? If you keep track of how you spend your time at work... that’s what you should be doing."

This reflective practice helps in prioritizing tasks that genuinely matter, both professionally and personally.

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7. Negotiating Boundaries When Saying Yes Is Necessary

There are instances where saying no isn't feasible. In such cases, Linda advises negotiating the scope of the commitment to prevent overextension. This includes delegating parts of the task, securing additional resources, or setting clear timelines to manage expectations effectively.

Rose [26:00]: "How do you negotiate the boundary of that when it is... I’m going to be handing that off."

Such negotiations ensure that while crucial tasks are undertaken, they do not disproportionately impact one's workload or well-being.

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Notable Quotes

• Linda Babcock [05:50]: "Women have a harder time saying no because there can be backlash when they do."

• Rose [12:18]: "Non-promotable tasks should not rely on volunteers but should be part of job descriptions."

• Linda Babcock [19:10]: "Sometimes a B job is good enough. You don’t have to strive for excellence in every non-promotable task."

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Conclusions and Key Takeaways

• Balancing Personal and Organizational Responsibility: Effective time management requires both individual discipline in saying no and organizational systems that distribute non-promotable tasks equitably.

• Recognizing Societal Pressures: Awareness of the societal and gender-based pressures that influence one's ability to set boundaries is crucial for personal well-being and professional advancement.

• Implementing Practical Strategies: Adopting strategies like the 24-hour rule and considering opportunity costs can significantly enhance one's ability to protect their time.

• Advocating for Systemic Change: Organizations must take active steps to ensure fair task allocation to prevent burnout and foster a more inclusive and productive workplace.

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Final Thoughts

This episode underscores the multifaceted nature of time management and boundary-setting in the modern workplace. By combining personal strategies with systemic changes, individuals and organizations can create environments where everyone has the opportunity to thrive without the undue burden of unrecognized responsibilities. Linda Babcock's insights provide a valuable roadmap for anyone looking to reclaim their time and prioritize their well-being.

Transcript

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[Rose]

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[Adam Grant]

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[Rose]

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[Adam Grant]

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[Linda Babcock]

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[Adam Grant]

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[Rose]

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[Linda Babcock]

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[Adam Grant]

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[Rose]

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[Elise Hu]

Hey, TED Talks Daily listeners. I'm Elise Hu. We are back this Sunday with an episode of another podcast from the TED Audio Collective, handpicked by us for you. The current season of Work Life has been all about saying no, which is not always easy. In this episode of Work Life, host Adam Grant spoke with Linda Babcock, who is a professor emerita of economics at Carnegie Mellon and co author of the no Club. About a club of people who help each other set boundaries, this conversation gets personal. Linda and Adam open up about some of their own personal struggles and the hard lessons they've learned around saying no. They also offer novel strategies for all of us when it comes to setting healthier boundaries. If you want to learn more ways to work smarter, you're in luck. You can find Work Life wherever you get your podcasts. Learn more at the TED audio [e-mail].

[Linda Babcock]

Linda, I have to ask you, are you a people pleaser?

[Rose]

I would say that I used to be before I started on this big research project about saying no and really realized how much of it was was about me trying to make sure other people liked me. And so once I started on this journey, on this project, I really learned if I was going to make any progress, I was going to have to stop doing that.

[Linda Babcock]

Hey, it's Adam Grant. We're doing something different this season of Work Life, my podcast with Ted. I'm still an organizational psychologist, and I still study how to make work not suck. But this season, we're pairing each of our regular episodes with a companion interview. It might be with an expert, a practitioner, or someone unexpected who can add a different perspective to our episode and build on and challenge. What we said today is our companion interview for the episode on how to say no. And who better to call on than Linda Babcock, professor emerita of economics at Carnegie Mellon and co author of the no Club? It's a club of people who help each other say no.

[Rose]

So one day I was in my office at Carnegie Mellon, and I looked at my schedule for the day, and what I saw is it was full of meetings. And none of these meetings were about research, which is the way I'm assessed and evaluated in my job. They were all meeting with students, going to a faculty meeting, talking to a reporter. And I went across the hall to my friend George, who has the same job as I do, and I said, hey, George, let me look at your schedule today. And he showed it to me. And of course, it was filled with research meetings all day. And what I realized is that I needed an intervention because I wasn't getting time to do my work. And so I reached out to a bunch of my friends in a panicked email saying, hey, I need an intervention. My guess is you all have the same problem. I do. Do you want to get together for drinks? And the no Club was born. And we've been meeting for the last 15 years, just about every month to talk about the things that we've agreed to that we probably shouldn't have.

[Linda Babcock]

Did this look different for your male colleagues?

[Rose]

Well, interestingly, the group that I reached out to is all women. And, you know, when I would tell male colleagues about the club, sometimes they just say, look at me like I was crazy. Like, why? Why don't you just say no to these things? It isn't that obvious. And what we realized is that women have a harder time saying no. And some of that is because there can be backlash when they do say no. That is, we have society's expectations that women are helpful, they're happy to help. And so when you say no, it's really counter normative and people can begin to form negative impressions of you. And so there is a ton of pressure on women to say yes.

[Linda Babcock]

Linda's experienced that pressure firsthand, but she's also studied it. She's done experiments on non promotable tasks, the type of work that helps organizations run, but isn't seen as strategic tasks like taking notes in meetings, planning social events, onboarding new hires, and volunteering for extra responsibilities.

[Rose]

You know, when you're in a meeting and the person leading the meeting says, hey, who would like to do blah, blah, blah, whatever task? And they're sitting around waiting for volunteers and of course everyone is like looking away, you know, packing up their stuff to go. No one wants to be the one to volunteer. And the question is, who is the one? After a very long period of silence, you know, breaks down and says, oh my goodness, okay, I'll do it. When they clearly don't want to. So what we wanted to do is design an experiment that was like that situation.

[Linda Babcock]

Linda and her colleagues put people in groups to play a game. If anyone in the group pressed a button within two minutes, the whole group would earn money. Easy, right? Only one person has to press a button and everyone wins. The catch. The person who actually presses the button, the hero of the group, earns less than everyone else.

[Rose]

When we look at who presses the button specifically, is it men or is it women that press the button? And what we find that over 10 rounds, women on average press the button 50% more times than men do. And so what's happening is that the men are just waiting around for someone else. There's probably a woman in my group, right? She's going to press the button. The women are thinking, oh, someone else isn't going to press it. I'm going to press it. And so it's not that women are good at pressing the button, right? Because some people say, well, women do non promotable tasks because they're good at them. Well, this is not one of those situations. Like everybody is equally good at pressing the button. No one really wants to. And so women press the button more.

[Linda Babcock]

Linda, that dynamic sounds like every group project ever.

[Rose]

Yeah, exactly. No, that's right. You want it to all get done, but you're hoping someone else takes one for the team. And it was very robust finding that women are just much more likely to do that taking for the team. And what's interesting about this research is that if you put women in all women groups and they see who presses the button. And you put men in all men groups and see who presses the button. Women and men on average press the button about the same amount that it isn't that all the women groups are always succeeding and the men are just free riding men. When they're with other men and they know it, they look around and they say, oh my goodness, I'm with other men. There's no woman here to press the button. I'm going to have to do it. And women are relieved. They look around, they see other women and they say, oh, like someone else is going to press the button. They don't have to do it as much. And so these differences that we find in these experiments are not coming from people's preferences or how good they are at doing the task, but it's the expectations that others will fill in and do it.

[Linda Babcock]

Frustrating. Now you also added a manager to allocate these kinds of tasks. What happened then?

[Rose]

Well, they were much more likely to ask the woman than the man in their group to press the button. And then again, we don't think she's better at pressing the button or that she likes to press the button. But we ask women because we think they will. And they were right. They did.

[Linda Babcock]

I have to say, when I first read your research on non promotable tasks, I shouldn't have been, but I was surprised that this was still so common that I'm like, what century is this? Why is this still happening? Can you quantify the problem for us? How much time are women spending on these non promotable tasks where they're helping but not getting any credit for it?

[Rose]

Yeah, absolutely. I'll tell you about a study of this wonderful data that we got access to. I was working for a consulting company doing some talks and they told me that they had data on how people spent their time at work. Because of course consultants have to take meticulous have, you know, keep meticulous track of their time because they're billing clients. And so the firm set up a system where every 15 minutes you have to account with a code about what you were doing those 15 minutes. And before we looked at the data, I had the company managers go through and classify what is promotable and what is non promotable. And then we looked at how men and women in the same jobs spent their time. And what we found is that the women spent more than 200 hours more than men did per year doing work that the firm themselves had classified as non promotable.

[Linda Babcock]

I'm sorry, that was 200 hours per woman?

[Rose]

Yes, 200 hours a year per woman on average, more than the men. And so it's like men have an extra month or women have one fewer months to be productive. And so you can imagine how that's going to affect your performance because either you have to stop doing so much promotable work or you have to work extra hours, and neither is a good option.

[Linda Babcock]

So I want to talk about what we can do about that. You know, when, when I, when I see how, just how systematic the problem is. Right. The scale of it. I think this is actually a problem for organizations to solve, not just individuals. And we ought to have systems for allocating these non promotable tasks equitably as opposed to dumping them on the people who seem most willing to volunteer or are least likely to say no. How do you think about that?

[Rose]

Yeah, I absolutely agree with you, Adam, because suppose everyone listening to your podcast decided they were going to start saying no to everything. Well, organizations would be in a very difficult bind then because this is work that's important for them and it wouldn't be getting done. And so organizations have to figure out a way to, to make this more fair. And so you can think about rotating these tasks, random assignment, drawing the name of the hat for who's going to plan the social event, the golf event this year.

[Linda Babcock]

So that means we have to take a few steps. The first one is to identify all these non promotable tasks. The second is to put someone in charge of allocating them. And then a third is to make sure that that allocation is fair and even.

[Rose]

And you know, that might not be an easy task. You think about sometimes how these tasks are allocated and often it's for asking for volunte. Well, that's probably the worst way to ask because the people that are the people pleasers, of course, are going to be the ones that are going to volunteer. They're going to get behind in their promotable work and then you're going to lose those as resources to your organization.

[Linda Babcock]

I was thinking on a similar note that if a task needs to be done, we shouldn't be leaning on volunteers in the first place. It should be in someone's job description.

[Rose]

That's exactly right. And that's kind of the big point that we try to make in our work. And that is maybe some of these tasks ought to be promotable. That is, if a task is so important that we're asking people to do it, maybe we should include that in our performance evaluation. And so one of the organizations I was working for, they were redoing their performance evaluation system when I came to give a talk about this work and what they decided to do is make helping promotable. And so they set up a system where if someone gave you some great help, you could put a little note in the file saying, hey, this person spent a lot of time really help me out with this work. And then that was accounted for when that person's performance was being evaluated. And so it makes what was non promotable. Promotable.

[Linda Babcock]

That makes so much sense. I've seen some companies do this too. I've studied peer bonus programs in tech companies, for example, where people can allocate a certain amount of money to somebody who's gone above and beyond to help them out. And importantly, they have to explain why they've earned the bonus. So they're not just being nice, they're actually helping to solve a problem or advance a goal. Let's recognize and reward those people. Why do you think it's so rare for organizations to build these systems?

[Rose]

Well, I think some of these non promotable work tasks are not that quantifiable. When I think about the consultants that I studied, how many hours you spent billing a client is very objective. Okay. Versus what's the quality of the work that you did on putting together a report for the organization, maybe that you won't be evaluated on, but the organization needed or how do you account for time spent on a governance committee or time helping others? And so I think we just haven't been as mindful to these other tasks that actually really do help the organization thrive that we might want to then reconsider for adding to performance.

[Linda Babcock]

Okay. So given that not all of our listeners are in a position to build the kinds of systems that you were talking about, we also want to equip people with individual strategies to join your no club.

[Rose]

Absolutely. There are some situations that are just make it difficult for us to make good decisions. So what are those situations? The first one is called the planning fallacy. We say yes to things because we're really underestimating how long something's going to take. Adam, when you ask me to be on this podcast, I have to think about, well, I'm going to be on for an hour talking to him, so it takes an hour. Okay, of course I can do that. But then I wrote a bunch of notes, I have my talking points, ended up spending a number of hours on it, which was much more than the hour that I agreed to, which of course I was happy to. But our rule for this is whenever you make an estimate about how long Something's actually going to take, multiply by four and then you're going to be in the ballpark. More. If you think about the future, when someone asks you to do something and maybe it's next month, well, future you is maybe not as busy as future is current you. And so you look at your calendar and you say, oh yeah, I've got some time, I can do that. But what you don't recognize is that that day a month from now is going to look just like today. You're going to be just as busy then. And so that can be a trap because you think you're going to not be busy in the future. So the fix for that is just imagine the request was for today or tomorrow. Would you still be as excited to do it and you'll be able to see, no, actually I really can't do that.

[Linda Babcock]

You know, Linda, as you describe this temporal discounting problem, I think future me is always busier than current me. Like not just as busy, busier.

[Rose]

Oh, really, future me?

[Linda Babcock]

Well, I just think opportunities and tasks only accumulate over time.

[Rose]

Yeah.

[Linda Babcock]

And unless I'm getting better at saying no at a faster rate than that accumulation, future me is actually in a worse position than present me.

[Rose]

Yeah, well, I think you have a lot of self awareness. You realize that future you is going to be busy. Whereas many people when they look, think about their calendar, they just look at it now and feel like they're not going to be busy. And so that's a real problem. Some of the problems that you can face is feeling pressure to decide immediately when someone asks you to do something. You can get a little panicked and just agree in the moment without really thinking it through. And so I have a 24 hour rule that is I can say no immediately, but if I think I might say yes, I have to wait 24 hours and that will give me time to more calmly think about is this really a good decision?

[Linda Babcock]

I love that one. The, the 24 hour rule is really powerful and it's definitely helped me avoid some yeses that I would have regretted later. I've also learned over time that I guess as I've gained power and status and I might be putting pressure on other people, I often give people a 48 hour rule before they're allowed to say yes to an invitation or an opportunity because I don't want them to be tempted in the moment and then kick themselves afterward. Do you know anything about the ideal amount of time? Do we have any data on that?

[Rose]

We don't have any data I think the point in general is don't decide right away. Give yourself however amount of time feels right to get back to them in a timely way. But have some time to think through it calmly.

[Linda Babcock]

I like it. Okay, what is the next trap?

[Rose]

Failing to think about your opportunity costs. Then this is a little bit like the future you, but realize that I can't just add one more thing to my plate. I know, Adam, you're really busy. If you add one thing you need to take off something else. You just can't pile it on. And so really thinking carefully about what is that thing that I'm not going to do. And one of my book co authors, Lisa Vesterland, what she realized is the thing she was always taking off was time with her kids. And so she had a rule that when she was going to agree to do something, she had to pick up the picture of her two children and say to their faces, yes, Jake and Laura, I'm going to be commenting on this paper over the weekend for someone I don't even know and I'm not going to be taking you to the park. And so ouch. She would. Yes, ouch. And that really made clear for her what the opportunity cost of what it is she would be giving up by agreeing to do this one thing. And that really helped her to prioritize her time.

[Linda Babcock]

This is like the mirror image of what I've done in my research for a long time, which is in my case, helping people see the meaning of their jobs by coming face to face with the clients or customers or end users who benefit from their work. In this case, you're coming face to face with the most important victim of your bad decisions.

[Rose]

Exactly.

[Linda Babcock]

That's incredibly clever. The other thing that's really interesting about this is when I think about this particular trap, it reminds me of one of our past guests, Lady Klotz, who was studying addition bias and said, every time you're going to make an additive change, you should commit to a subtractive one. And sometimes I've even formalized this and said, I'm in subtraction mode. I will not add anything else to my calendar unless I can subtract something equal or greater.

[Rose]

I think it's a great strategy and it's one we think about when you need help saying, no. For example, let's say at work you're getting a lot of these requests to do non promotable tasks. You might engage your supervisor and have a discussion with that person saying, you know, I can do this additional thing if this is really important. But what are the things that I can stop doing that maybe are less important, you know, for me to do? And so to work with another person, probably your supervisor, manager, to do that, if you're going to add something, you got to subtract something because you just can't keep piling on. And that actually provides a nice opportunity for you to work with someone else to help. You better think about how to prioritize your time because your incentives are completely aligned. You and your supervisor here, you want to do the things that are going to be best for the organization.

[Linda Babcock]

That's exactly what Sherry Liu did in our recent episode, and I love your framing of it to say, can you help me with the math here? I'm being asked to add a lot, but I don't see any subtraction.

[Rose]

Yeah, I guess the final one, the decision trap we've thought about was what we call the diva moment. And that is someone asks you to do something and you feel so honored that you were asked and so you feel so great about yourself. And so then of course you're going to say yes because you have this really positive feeling now. And it may be something you actually don't want to do is just that you were honored to be asked. And our fix for that is that you can still be a diva because you were asked. You can still bask in that glow, but you can still say no. And that may be just the best of both worlds.

[Linda Babcock]

That's my favorite moment for the referral to say, wow, I'm really honored and flattered. And now let me think about someone else who would be even more excited to bask in that glow and create this opportunity for them.

[Adam Grant]

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[Sleep Number Representative]

Choose a Sleep number Smart bed?

[Rose]

Can I make my site softer?

[Adam Grant]

Can I make my site firmer? Can we sleep cooler?

[Sleep Number Representative]

Sleep Number does that cools up to eight times faster and lets you choose your ideal comfort on either side. Your Sleep Number setting Get early Access to sleep number's biggest sale of the year 25% off the i8 bed our most popular plus free home delivery limited time all Sleep number Smart Beds offer temperature solutions for your best sleep. Check it out at a sleepnumber store or sleepnumber.com today.

[Linda Babcock]

Linda, I'm hoping that you can help me resolve a debate with a couple of colleagues. A couple of very smart women that I work with said I don't want to stop taking notes in meetings because I like having the power of the pen. The person who creates the record also shapes the record. And it did dawn on me then that there are sometimes hidden benefits of taking on these roles. How do you know where to draw the line?

[Rose]

Well, that's when a careful reflection of what it is you do is so important. And so if you keep track of how you spend your time at work, you have a list of all the things that you do, right? You have some promotable work, you have some work that's maybe somewhere in between and some that's clearly non promotable. And everybody has to do some non promotable work. So the question is, are you doing the right non promotable work? All right. And so for me, for example, I find great gratification in mentoring other people. And so that's the non promotable work that I want to do. And so looking at the things that you enjoy, the things that you know are personally meaningful to you, or maybe the things that bring your unique skills to bear. So for example, at the university, you're asked to do a lot of different kinds of tasks, being on a lot of different kinds of committees. And I won't just be on one that where I'm just a random body, right? They just need somebody. But if there's a committee that is developing issues about equity and fairness in personnel policies on campus, that's something I have some expertise in and that I'm going to be one of the few people qualified to be on that, that's something I'll say yes to. And so if your colleague finds that that's something that they find useful is to take the notes so that they can shape the discussion, then that's one of the things they should be doing and taking other things off the list that do not check that box.

[Linda Babcock]

That tracks very nicely with, I guess, with the advice that I've given over the years when people ask how do I become a giver without burning out or getting burned?

[Rose]

And exactly.

[Linda Babcock]

My guidance is usually it pretty much boils down to be thoughtful about who you help, when you help and how you help. Don't make yourself crazy helping takers. Don't compromise your own goals and make sure you're helping in ways that add unique value as opposed to just indiscriminately.

[Rose]

Saying yes, no, that's right. The characteristic of many of these non promotable tasks are that they just need a body, they don't need you in particular.

[Linda Babcock]

Okay. I also wanted to ask you about situations where people can't say no. Certain non promotable tasks that it may not be in your job description, but there's already an expectation that you'll do them. Many people work in organizations where their bosses are just not amenable to trying to think about how to allocate these more fairly. What do you do in those moments?

[Rose]

Yeah, that's a great question because we've been talking about this as you have the ability to say no. But you're absolutely right that sometimes we just must say yes. And so how to do that in a way that's going to be best for us. One thing to do do is agree to do part of it. So if the task can be broken up into several components, say yeah, I'll do this part and then who could I pass it onto when I'm finished with this part and they can carry it to the finish line. And that way you're setting yourself up for a smaller task than if you agreed to do the whole thing. Another thing to do is of course we talked about this earlier and that is get something else taken off your plate. So yes, I can see this is really important. I need to do this right now. I can help me think about what I should stop doing so that I can free some of my time up to really focus on this important issue. The other thing you can think about is try to get some additional resources. So if I'm asked to plan a big event, is there some staff support that I could have to help me with this? I can kind of formulate it and reach some decisions and then having someone else implement it.

[Linda Babcock]

You've used the term negotiate the boundaries of yes, absolutely.

[Rose]

So I'm not saying yes to the whole thing. I'm going to do part of it. Who else can help me with it? What are the resources I can have? What is the length of time I'll do the task? If I'm going to agree to take notes in meetings, I'll do it for the next month and then who are we going to rotate it to? So because you get a task, it's not yours forever. And to negotiate the boundary of that when it is, I'm going to be handing that off. One of the other things that you could think about doing is I don't know how you're going to feel about this one. And that is sometimes a B job is good enough. So it might take you 10 hours to do an A plus, but only five to do a B. And so that's a decision. How intensive an effort do I want to make on this and to decide is a B good enough? And people might not be expecting an A. That is, they might be thrilled with a B plus. And so it's not that it's not that I'm gonna look incompetent, it's that they're still gonna be pleased. I'm not gonna kill myself doing this task. And it's a win win.

[Linda Babcock]

Well, that's the ideal situation. I was thinking about the more problematic and for me, more common sort of no good deed goes unpunished where somebody hands you a task you don't wanna do, you crush it and then guess what? You've now invited yourself to get nine more.

[Rose]

Yes, exactly. It's yours forever. Oh, Adam. But you're the best person to do this. And you know my response to that is I'm sure that if x other person worked really hard on it, they could also do this task. And so just because you crushed it doesn't mean it's yours forever. Foreign.

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[Rose]

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[Linda Babcock]

Let's go back to the collective level for a second. I think we all know individual people pleasers. I've also worked with organizations that have cultures of people pleasing where there's a norm, an expectation, maybe even pressure to say yes to everything. How do you think about that problem and beginning to solve it?

[Rose]

Well, I think that that is maybe an organization who is not prioritizing people's time very well. And so it really takes top leadership to be thinking what are the things that are really strategic for us? What are the things that really need to be done? And finding a way to align your culture with how to incentivize those things.

[Linda Babcock]

I like that. I think it applies actually to maybe both of the flavors that I've seen. So when I think about people pleasing cultures, one version is organizations with extreme norms of politeness where no one ever wants to refuse a meeting invitation, for example, and then you end up with meetings with 28 people in them when only four of them are really actively participating. The other is customer obsession organizations where you can never say no to the client, you can never turn the customer down, the customer is always right. Good service means always saying yes. And that I think actually allows a lot of abusive client customer behavior.

[Rose]

You know, the organizations that we've worked with tend to be ones that are coming to us because they're having a problem with this inequitable allocation of these non promotable tasks. So it is that some people are free riding and others are doing too much of this work. And that imbalance is also not good for an organization because it breeds resentment among co workers. You know, why am I having to do all these things and my colleague is saying no and then they're getting promoted because they're spending their time a different way. And so at some point point the people pleasing yesers are going to start saying no. And then you won't have any of this work getting done. And so, you know, finding a balance where everyone is doing a little bit and you can think about, you know, setting organizational norms. So everyone needs to sit on one governance committee, you know, everybody needs to do five hours a week of mentoring others in the organization, you know, whatever it is, that kind of makes sense. What are the non promotive work that you value, that you're trying to incentivize?

[Linda Babcock]

That also makes me think about another type of norm, which is we Talked in the last episode about personal policies and having a set of heuristics or rules for things that I just don't say yes to. I wonder if teams or organizations should have these too. Like if I'm a manager, I should have a list of things that you should never do for a client or that you should not agree to for a colleague. What do you think of that? That?

[Rose]

Oh, absolutely. I mean, I'm sure that you've mentored enough junior colleagues in your life that you have those list of things. Never agree to be on the faculty senate, don't referee too many papers, you know, whatever it is, you have that list in your head about all the things that you ought to say no to. And that's actually what a no club, I think can really do for you. And that is a group of like minded people or people that understand your work setting and you understand theirs. You can get together and talk about these things to try to develop your personal policies. Because I really like that about, you know, what you said on the episode, Adam, about having those policies. I just wonder, like, how did you arrive at those? You know, and I think it takes a lot of work to think about what are the things I value most and then the other things I can just let go.

[Linda Babcock]

Yeah, I think for me, regret is my best teacher. So I repeatedly said yes to certain kinds of requests. It's like, should not have done that. Okay, that's going on the, on the, you know, on the no list. But speaking of the episode, I want to give you a chance to say no to something that we recommended. What did you hear that you disagreed with or wanted to debate or complicate?

[Rose]

It wasn't so much disagreed with. But as we were talking earlier, taking such a micro perspective misses out on the bigger point of what should organizations be doing? We can all start saying no and find ways to better spend our time, but eventually this work that is important needs to get done. You know, organizations need to have people help each other fill in while each other's at work. We need to recruit people, we need to mentor, we need to train. You know, we need to prove someone's PowerPoint presentation. We need to plan outings.

[Linda Babcock]

Do we really?

[Rose]

Yeah, maybe, maybe not. We need to plan outings that to. To build culture. And so maybe those should be somebody's jobs. And I think if I were to critique anything, it would be taking too small of a perspective and only trying to change yourself in the system, not thinking about how to work through the system to change it. So that we're all happier, healthier, and more productive.

[Linda Babcock]

That's a valid critique as far as I'm concerned, and it's often where I feel I'm a little bit outside my expertise as a psychologist. And this is one of the reasons I called an economist. So. Okay, Linda, last question for you. How has the no club affected your life both at and outside work?

[Rose]

Well, profoundly in so many ways. I mean, professionally, this club that we started just because I needed an intervention led to some. Some rewards and maybe turned out to be promotable in the end because of the work that I did. I would say personally, I felt like it really helped me to make better use of my time to really be more purposeful about the things I was agreeing to and why. You know, like, you have your personal policies. I developed some too, that helped me guide my decision making, and I think that that made me a lot happier, a lot less stressed out.

[Linda Babcock]

Do you have, do you have a favorite example from your personal life of how you've put this into practice?

[Rose]

This. I guess one of the things that the club really did for me, and I talk about this example in the book we wrote, and that is I had a request come in, which is just one of the toughest ones for me to say no to. And that is a student that I had had. I had them in my negotiation class. They learned about my research. They're now in a company. They invite me to give a seminar at the company. And I just always feel so compelled to do that. Part of it is the diva a little bit. I feel like, oh, they invited me. You know, this is such a great honor. But it's also a student who I had a connection with and want to help. And in this particular situation, I reached out to my club and I emailed them. We usually met face to face, but in emergencies we'd email each other. And I emailed them, help, help, help. Like, what do I do? And within about 20 minutes, I had 10 different responses. And. And someone at the end had formalized the exact script that I should write, saying no and why. And it was. I would have never thought of it myself. You know, it basically said, you know, I'm afraid I can't do that. But, you know, you were such a good student in my class. You learned so many negotiation skills. I think you would be able to give a negotiation seminar yourself. And I'll happy to provide some materials for you if you want to give a talk. And I felt good about the request. She felt good about me having confidence in her. It all kind of worked out, and my club was there to really back me up on this.

[Linda Babcock]

What a fantastic example. I love that example. Not only because it was meaningful for you and for the student, it sounds like for the organization, but also it makes me think that, and I've experienced this personally, that joining someone else's NO club and helping them figure out how to say no is actually the training that you need to build the skills yourself.

[Rose]

Absolutely. Because you can see other people's lives so objectively when it's really hard for you to take that, you know, magnifying glass inside. And you're right, it does give you the training to think about. Okay, what are my triggers?

[Linda Babcock]

Linda, this has been wonderful. Thank you. I'm so glad you said yes to it.

[Rose]

Well, I'm glad I said yes to. And what I loved about your request is that you gave me full license to say no, and I appreciated that.

[Linda Babcock]

This episode was produced by Daphne Chen. Our team includes Brittany Cronin, Constanza Gallardo, Greta Cohn, Grace Rubinstein, Daniela Belarazo, Ban Bun Cheng, Alejandro Salazar, and Roxanne Hylash. Our fact checker is Paul Durbin. Our show is mixed by Sarah Bruguer, original music by Hansdale sue and Alex and Latent Brown.

[Rose]

I just have to warn you, there could be like a shipboard announcement that comes on, and if so, we'll just have to pause. But I can't control that because sometimes the captain gets on and says something.

[Linda Babcock]

So you know what? I think that would be one of the more entertaining disruptions we've had in the history of this show.

[Rose]

Okay, good.

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[Rose]

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[Linda Babcock]

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