Sunday Pick: Unsolicited Advice: How to get your mojo back at work | Fixable

Summary

TED Talks Daily: Sunday Pick — Unsolicited Advice: How to Get Your Mojo Back at Work | Fixable

Release Date: July 27, 2025

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In this episode of TED Talks Daily, host Elise Hu introduces a special installment from the TED Audio Collective—the podcast Fixable. Titled "Unsolicited Advice: How to Get Your Mojo Back at Work," this episode delves into overcoming workplace burnout, reclaiming energy, and reigniting passion in professional settings. Hosted by Anne Morris, a company builder and leadership coach, and Frances Fry, a Harvard Business School professor, the discussion offers actionable insights to help listeners transform their work experiences.

Introduction: Setting the Stage for Renewal

Anne Morris and Frances Fry open the episode by acknowledging the mid-year point and the importance of preparing for a summer break. They emphasize the episode's focus on addressing feelings of being overwhelmed, uninspired, or burned out at work. The hosts outline their goal: to provide unsolicited advice on recovering from constant stress, harnessing personal energy, and fostering an engaging work environment.

Part One: Understanding and Combating Exhaustion

Defining Exhausted Mediocrity

At [08:42], Anne introduces the concept of "exhausted mediocrity," a state where individuals feel both stressed and bored, without seeing meaningful progress or rewards for their efforts. Frances Fry references Adam Grant's term "languishing," describing a pervasive sense of being stuck without growth or satisfaction.

Notable Quote:

"It's a mix of feeling both stressed and bored at the same time... an experience where our nervous systems are jacked up, but we're not getting any payoff for it." — Anne Morris [08:42]

Root Causes of Workplace Exhaustion

Frances attributes much of workplace exhaustion to the "always on" culture, a concept explored in Leslie Perlow's research. This culture demands constant availability, leading to diminished individual performance and heightened burnout.

Notable Quote:

"We're never outrunning the lion. We're never bringing down the woolly mammoth. We are just in this state of activity without any return." — Anne Morris [09:33]

Strategies for Recovery: Intentional Disconnection

The hosts advocate for intentional disconnection as a remedy. Frances emphasizes the importance of scheduling time off for individuals within a team to ensure sustained performance.

Notable Quote:

"Being deeply disciplined about putting the phone away... rest and recover as much as training is essential for sustainable excellence." — Anne Morris [13:29]

They discuss practical approaches:

• Scheduled Time Off: Ensuring each team member has designated periods to disconnect.
• Reducing Emotional Contagion: Limiting exposure to negative emotions by either reducing interactions or accommodating them without internalizing the stress.

Notable Quote:

"You either reduce the amount that you let other people's emotions influence you by limiting your interaction with other people... Or you accommodate it in a way that doesn't drain your energy." — Frances Fry [17:09]

Part Two: Replacing Exhaustion with Ambition

Rediscovering Passion and Purpose

Anne introduces a transformative quote by Howard Thurman:

"Don't ask what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive, and go do it. Because the world needs people who have come alive." — Anne Morris [23:11]

This sets the stage for discussing how to reignite passion at work.

Identifying Personal Passions

Frances suggests an anthropological approach to self-discovery:

• Observe Interests: Pay attention to what naturally captivates you—what articles you linger on, which videos you watch, and what activities you pursue in your downtime.
• Non-Judgmental Exploration: Encourage a judgment-free observation to uncover genuine interests and passions.

Notable Quote:

"Be an anthropologist about yourself and just float around beside them and notice where you stop and dwell... Be judgment free." — Frances Fry [27:21]

Anne shares a personal anecdote about winning a Starbucks quote contest, highlighting how unexpected passions can lead to significant personal and professional developments.

Embracing Ambition and Mission

The conversation shifts to the importance of having a mission—a purpose bigger than oneself. Frances challenges the contemporary notion that passion is overrated, asserting that passion is, in fact, crucial for feeling alive and achieving excellence.

Notable Quote:

"The more ambitious you are, the more you will achieve. Ambition is our friend." — Frances Fry [36:50]

They emphasize dreaming big and setting lofty goals as catalysts for personal growth and workplace engagement.

Balancing Macro and Micro Needs

Anne and Frances discuss the necessity of addressing both macro (big-picture mission) and micro (daily personal needs) aspects to create a fulfilling work experience.

Notable Quote:

"Naming, naming, owning, solving for your micro needs at work… it's about without judgment because this is another inside job without self-judgment." — Anne Morris [34:16]

Frances underscores the importance of maintaining variety and mastering skills without falling into boredom or stagnation.

Conclusion: Taking Action and Dreaming Big

The episode culminates with a call to action—encouraging listeners to start pursuing their ambitions immediately rather than delaying. Frances shares her preference for prompt action ("How about now?") over extended planning periods, highlighting the benefits of immediate engagement over procrastination.

Notable Quote:

"The more ambitious you are, the more you will achieve... Don't start with a small thing, add a zero." — Frances Fry [36:50]

Anne echoes this sentiment by referencing Peter Drucker’s observation on long-term goal setting, suggesting that ambitious dreams can unlock significant energy and drive.

Takeaway Mantra:

"To get started on Dreaming Big." — Anne Morris [41:53]

Final Thoughts

Anne Morris and Frances Fry conclude by encouraging listeners to take intentional steps toward rest and renewal over the summer break. They remind their audience to reach out with workplace issues and participate in creating meaningful change both individually and within their organizations.

Notable Quote:

"There is just tremendous power to being in motion." — Anne Morris [41:15]

By addressing both exhaustion and ambition, this episode of Fixable provides a comprehensive roadmap for professionals seeking to rejuvenate their work lives and achieve sustained fulfillment.

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For more insights and episodes from the TED Audio Collective, visit audiocollective.ted.com. If you’re facing workplace challenges, leave a voicemail at 234-349-2253 or email [e-mail].

Transcript

[Elise Hu]

This episode is brought to you by Nordstrom. Okay, if you're like me, you wait all year for the Nordstrom anniversary sale. Because it's not about clearing out old stuff. It's about scoring new arrivals on sale. Think of it as a rare moment when time bends in our favor. Fresh styles, beauty exclusives, even home goods up to 33% off. It's the perfect time to stock up on those pieces you'll wear or use on repeat. And yes, there are great finds for under $100 from BR brands like Madewell, Free People and Charlotte Tilbury. The sale is on now, but not forever. Prices go up Aug. 4, and Nordstrom makes it easy, which, honestly, we all need. There's online order pickup, free shipping, free returns, and even free style help. If you're stuck in decision fatigue, check out all the fun anniversary events happening at Nordstrom near you, like in store promotions and daily beauty events. Shop now. Your future self will thank you. This episode is sponsored by Upwork. Navigating today's economy well, it's a lot. Tariffs, tight budgets, hiring freezes. But if you're trying to build something right now, one of the smartest moves you can make is upwork. Upwork is the hiring platform designed for how business actually works. Today you can find, hire and pay expert freelancers who deliver from day one without blowing your budget or your timeline. Whether you need support with AI, design, admin work, or a new marketing strategy, upwork gives you access to top talent without the overhead of full time hires. No subscriptions, no upfront fees. Posting a job is free. You only pay when you hire. Never tried Upwork? Well, now's the perfect time because they're giving our listeners a $200 credit. After spending 1,000 in your first 30 days, that's $200 you can put towards your next freelancer. Visit Upwork.comSaverightNow for this great offer. That's Upwork.comSave. don't wait. This offer is only valid through August 5th, 2025. This episode is sponsored by Dell. Introducing the new Dell AI PC. Powered by the Intel Core Ultra processor. It's not just an AI computer. It's a computer built for AI. That means it's built to help do your busy work for you. So you can fast forward through editing images, designing presentations, generating code, debugging code, running lots of apps without lag, creating live translations and captions, summarizing meeting notes, extending battery life, enhancing security, finding that file you were looking for, managing your schedule, meeting your deadlines, responding to Jim's long emails, leaving all the time in the world for more you time and for the things you actually want to do. No offense, Jim. Get a new Dell AI PC starting at [e-mail] AI PC how those ahead? Stay ahead. Hey, Ted Talks Daily listeners, I'm Elise Hu. Today we have an episode of another podcast from the TED Audio Collective handpicked by us for you. Are you feeling a bit overwhelmed, uninspired, or burned out at work? It's a question I know I've lived many times throughout my career. And this week we're sharing a special unsolved solicited advice episode from Fixable, where our hosts, Anne Morris and Frances Fry, get ready for summer by tackling the importance of rest and the power of intention. They offer unexpected tips and tricks for recovering from constant stress, owning what you need to feel alive and engaged, and creating an experience of work that unleashes your ambition. Whatever you're dealing with at work, Fixable is there to help, offering actionable insights to create meaningful change in your life and workplace. Listen to Fixable wherever you get your podcasts. And if you've got a problem you want fixed, call their hotline at 234-fixable. That's 234-349-2253. To leave Ann and Frances a voicemail with your workplace problem. Learn more about the TED Audio Collective at audiocollective.ted.com.

[Anne Morris]

Frances we are more than halfway through the year now gearing up for a quick summer break. I feel like so far we've done what we came to do on the show.

[Frances Fry]

I completely agree. I have loved the Master Fixers, the teach ins. I think we've done everything. I think it's been a good semester. And you know, I might be most proud about the fact that we give just enough advice.

[Anne Morris]

I feel like we have been holding back a little bit. I have to say, I think restraint has been a theme of the first half of this year.

[Frances Fry]

I think so. And it's unnatural for me, as you know, I think it, I say it is usually how I operate, but for our listeners, I'm trying to moderate a little bit.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah, well, it's good news because our plan today is to practice no restraint at all. We had a lot more to say to Rosemary about recovery and how to get your mojo back at work. And we're going to say all of it on this episode, which feels like the perfect way to help prepare our listeners for a proper summer season of rest and renewal.

[Frances Fry]

I love it. I love it so much.

[Anne Morris]

Welcome to Fixable, a podcast from ted. I'm your host, Anne Morris. I'm a company builder and leadership coach.

[Frances Fry]

And I'm your co host, Frances Fry. I'm a Harvard Business School professor and I'm Ann's wife.

[Anne Morris]

This is a show where we believe meaningful change happens fast forward with some intentional rest and recovery along the way.

[Frances Fry]

There is a reason a week is followed by a weekend.

[Anne Morris]

Exactly. Today on the show, we're going to give unsolicited advice to anyone who is feeling stuck at work right now, both overwhelmed and under inspired. We're going to tackle both parts. How to get unstuck, but also how to create an experience of work that is worthy of you and your short time on this planet.

[Frances Fry]

Oh, I love your ambition.

[Anne Morris]

I want us to deal with the deficit of life force, the burnout part, the part of work that feels literally unsustainable. And then I want to talk about how you replace that mediocrity with something else. Something bigger that may even create a surplus of energy. If we're making this equation work, we want to dial down the negative parts, but we also have to dial up the positive ones. How does that sound as a plan?

[Frances Fry]

Well, from my math mind, we are nowhere near the frontier, so I'm optimistic.

[Elise Hu]

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[Anne Morris]

So we sometimes call this state, this experience of work, exhausted, mediocrity. And when we say that, it really hits some people hard. And it's this mix of feeling both stressed and bored at the same time. So our friend Adam Grant sometimes uses the word languishing to describe this. A variety of this experience. It's a beautiful word, but it's something beyond just feeling stuck or stagnant. It's also an experience where our nervous systems are jacked up, but we're not getting any payoff for it. We're never outrunning the lion. We're never bringing down the woolly mammoth. We are just in this state of activity without any return.

[Frances Fry]

It almost feels criminal that we're exhausted and we don't even get excellence for it. We're exhausted and mediocre. If I was gonna be mediocre, I'd like to be well rested. Yeah, totally.

[Anne Morris]

Something. And today we wanna get after both of these parts, which I think of as almost a renewal equation. So there's part one, the exhaustion, which is this deficit of life force, the burnout, the part of work that is feeling unsustainable because we don't have enough energy holding us up. And then the second part is how to replace that deficiency with something else, something bigger, something more ambitious, something that's going to more reliably create, dare I say, a surplus of energy where we might even be jumping out of bed to get after it. In our experience of work, I feel.

[Frances Fry]

Like this is going to be a gift that so many people are ready to receive.

[Anne Morris]

Okay, Francis, let's start with the cause of the problem here on the exhaustion side. So your lovely colleague Leslie Perlow has done a lot of thinking on this. Why are we all so tired at work?

[Frances Fry]

Because we care so much. Is one part of the answer what Leslie's language would be? Because we are always on. And so she did just a breathtaking study which compared teams that everyone was always on. It was in professional services, where you really are like, your client needs you to be always on. And she had teams that were always on, individuals were always on, and then teams that were collectively always on, but individually had scheduled a time off orders of magnitude better performance in the latter. So you can for a team be always on, but it doesn't mean each individual. Although what I see in practice is that if we're an always on culture, everyone is always on. And what I know from Leslie's beautiful work is that that is going to lead to exhausted mediocrity. That is no way to win. You are giving up performance if you're doing that. So that's the first one. Is that the scheduled time off for individuals?

[Anne Morris]

Yeah. I was going to ask what's the rem? So I'm in a culture. There's an implicit expectation that I'm always on. What's the remedy?

[Frances Fry]

I think make always on a group thing, even a duo thing. So one of us will be always on.

[Anne Morris]

Got it.

[Frances Fry]

That's, I think the way. And that's how she designed the experiment. Because we don't want to give less service to the client, but we want our team to be able to deliver higher quality when they are on.

[Anne Morris]

So if it's a team of Ann and Frances, we can still be an always on culture. But Ann is on part of the time, Frances is on the other part of the time.

[Frances Fry]

Yeah. And I would say we have an always on value proposition to the customer. We don't have an always on culture. We have a scheduled time off culture.

[Anne Morris]

So Leslie's book is called sleeping with your smartphone, which is super memorable. So there's also a piece of this that is not just about job design, which I think you're offering a beautiful remedy here. But what do I do if I've just been pulled in to the reality of being alive right now, which is an always on human experience.

[Frances Fry]

Yeah. So I always have Leslie Perlo sitting on my shoulder, which is I have to take scheduled times off. So I have to turn off the news, I have to turn off the. I don't think anything replaces that. We need scheduled time off. Always on for any source isn't going to work. But to be alive right now, usually a cause of exhaustion, always on is one of them.

[Anne Morris]

So the phrase I like from her work is intentional disconnection.

[Frances Fry]

Yeah, I think that's exactly right.

[Anne Morris]

Being deeply disciplined about, you know, putting the phone away. Ariana Huffington has done a lot of thinking on this in her thrive movement. Has a little bed for your phone. She tucks her phone in at night. I think all of this stuff is really helpful and it's very aligned with the Jim Lair and Tony Schwartz's peak Performance literature where they found that these elite athletes would allowed them to truly excel in a sustainable way over time is they brought the same amount of discipline and obsession to their rest and recovery as they did to their training and their nutrition and all these other things we associate with elite performance. And channeling Leslie's advice, I feel like everyone chasing this is honoring our human biology, which is that we were designed to rest and recover, rest and recover, rest and recover, not these marathon work lives that we're trying to live.

[Frances Fry]

Yeah. And it's both marathon work lives that other people are imposing on us. Perhaps, but we also do it ourselves. Like we're taking our smartphone to bed. I gotta tell you, I don't think it's because anyone else is imposing anything on us. I think it's an inside job.

[Anne Morris]

That's, I think what we have to be accountable for. I think how much agency we actually do have to schedule rest, set some boundaries. I think the world is also very open to this. I mean, the whole movement around four day work week, everyone is in a lot of pain, which is terrible. We feel it. I feel this acutely. But it does mean that there's also an openness that I think is unprecedented to experiment and come up with solutions both in our individual lives, but also inside teams and systems as large as organizations.

[Frances Fry]

It's a great.

[Anne Morris]

So I think we have to own it and then use the formal and informal power we have to try new things because this is not working.

[Frances Fry]

And it's a great time to experiment. To your point, the world seems very open. Everyone is palpably feeling the problem. Now's a great time to experiment with solutions.

[Anne Morris]

So, Francis, is there some kind of optimal schedule here?

[Frances Fry]

There is not. So, interestingly, intentionality gets the headline. You have to be intentional about the off time, but it doesn't say you have to do it between the hours of 9 and 5 and you have to do it from here to there. There was no evidence that one was universally better than the other, but the intentionality of the off, that was the key ingredient.

[Anne Morris]

Beautiful. So let me poke at one other source of exhaustion that see a lot of which is the infectiousness of other people's emotion.

[Frances Fry]

Oh, goodness.

[Anne Morris]

So I'm coming at this as on the kind of empathetic scale leaning more towards maybe than you being deeply aware of other people's emotions. But I want to say that you are very good at designing a life where you are limiting your exposure to emotions that you know are not going to serve you.

[Frances Fry]

Yes.

[Anne Morris]

So talk us through this. We just talked to Amanda Ripley and one of the lessons from her work is that other people's emotions are a huge variable in our experience as human beings. We know this is true for the emotions of leaders, which is this broadcast feature you have. So what do I do if that's part of my challenge at work?

[Frances Fry]

So my operations DNA will say that you have two tools. You can. If there's something that's like you need to not get the full strength of it, you either reduce it or you accommodate it. So I'll describe.

[Anne Morris]

Those are my only two choices.

[Frances Fry]

Those are your only two choices. So you either reduce or accommodate. So by reducing, I think that's what I do, which is I reduce the amount that I let other people's emotions influence me by limiting my interaction with other people. Like I literally. I quarantine either them or me. And that's reduced. And it's a great strategy. Not everyone can reduce in every context. If you can't, you have to figure out how to palatably accommodate. How to palatably accommodate it. As good as I am at reducing, that's how bad I am at accommodating, which is why I'm so good at reducing. So I want to be super clear, but let me give you the second option, because I do have degrees of freedom to reduce. So accommodating, you know, the popular version of it today would be Mel Robbins, Let them. That's a beautiful accommodation, the ultimate accommodation.

[Anne Morris]

And what is let them for listeners who don't know and what Let them is our wonderful work.

[Frances Fry]

It's like mystical if you ask me. But I'll tell you what it is, which is when, if someone else is doing something that feels negatively, emotionally contagious, let them. Let they're being passive aggressive, Let them. If they're being inconsiderate, let them. And she just goes through this mantra of instead of trying to control it, you let them. And then you do your own inside job of you get to choose how to respond to it, but you, at all costs, do not try to control them. It's like the 100% accommodation strategy. Now, this has worked so well for people, they're getting tattoos, say let them. But I'm not an accommodator in that regard. I'm a reducer.

[Anne Morris]

And what I find liberating about it, because I'm a little bit of a sponge myself, so I have to be disciplined about these kinds of boundaries. I feel it's less about control and more about feeling responsible, like co responsible. That's great. Like if you are upset, then I am co responsible for helping you feel better. And let them to me is also about giving myself permission to not have to be a part of the solution for everybody's pain. Maybe I have signed up for your pain, Frances.

[Frances Fry]

Well and I'm very grateful for it.

[Anne Morris]

Part of the contract but you know that does not scale to the rest of the world.

[Frances Fry]

Yeah, I think we should think about reduce and accommodate. I will go ahead and give it hierarchy reduce everywhere you can which is quarantine, limit, contain and then when you can't.

[Anne Morris]

That's my.

[Frances Fry]

Let them.

[Anne Morris]

That's your. That's your. That's your introverted conclusion here. I might extroverted why it might have to. Yes. Just limit your exposure to other human beings. Problem solved, people.

[Frances Fry]

You're making my point for me.

[Anne Morris]

All right. The summary for a tactic to the energy drain. If I had to pick a word. It's intention. It's bringing deep intention to breaks, to job design, to boundaries and really taking ownership and using the agency we have, it's. You know, it can be variable depending on the situation. But using the agency, we have to take this issue quite seriously.

[Frances Fry]

And even taking your intentionality all the way to how you emotionally respond to other people as. As you just pointed out.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah, yeah. You gotta own it. You gotta own it.

[Frances Fry]

Yeah.

[Anne Morris]

You're the problem. It's.

[Elise Hu]

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[Anne Morris]

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[Frances Fry]

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[Anne Morris]

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[Frances Fry]

Wait, that's the actual fire alarm. We need to go visit your nearest Boost Mobile store for full offer details. Apple Intelligence requires iOS 18.1 or later.

[Elise Hu]

Restrictions apply.

[Trisha Hershberger]

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[Anne Morris]

All right, Francis, Part two of the equation Energy Sources A Response to the Mediocrity Part of Exhausted Mediocrity. I'll start us off with another quote, which one that I love and we've shared with our listeners before, which is Howard Thurman, one of the great 20th century theologians. He said, don't ask what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive, and go do it. Because the world needs people who have come alive. So this is the question I want to ask. If I'm feeling a lack of aliveness in the workplace, how do I get in touch with that life force and find a way to dial it up?

[Frances Fry]

This is such a rich topic and I can't wait to hear from your perspective because you coach people on this all the time. I'll begin with a couple of thoughts. One is to come alive. It really helps to work on something you're passionate about. It is order of magnitudes helpful.

[Anne Morris]

I love you saying that because I feel like passion has been beaten up as a variable in the last few years.

[Frances Fry]

It is now in vogue to say it is frivolous to follow your passion. Now I can't help but saying I look at the demographics and if I just showed you the photos of the people that were saying it, there are very clear demographic tendencies of who's saying this. And I like the people very much, but I disagree on their point that passion is overrated. I think passion is underrated in the quest to alive. Where we will agree is that it's not sufficient, but where we disagree, is it.

[Anne Morris]

It's not for serious people doing serious things.

[Frances Fry]

Yeah. And here's what's always funny to me. The people who claim that passion doesn't matter have come alive doing things they're passionate about.

[Anne Morris]

Oh yeah, the messengers are quite passionate.

[Frances Fry]

Yes.

[Anne Morris]

And quite alive. So the word that's also activating for me is mission, because I think what it is is finding a purpose for your life that is bigger than you. But I want to say it does not have to be world peace. Although if it is, we could use you out here but it has to be a purpose that is noble to you, and it can be taking care of your family. It just has to be bigger than you and your ego and identity for this to work.

[Frances Fry]

I do feel like totally internal focused passion is gonna somehow turn into toxicity. If we're only thinking about ourselves, we have to end up being unpleasant to be around.

[Anne Morris]

Oh, yeah, I think we see that pattern all the time with people getting stuck in that place.

[Frances Fry]

Yeah.

[Anne Morris]

So, I mean, tactically, how do I figure that out in your experience?

[Frances Fry]

Yeah. So when I used to coach MBA students who were thinking about, like, what did they want to do with, Particularly the ones that came to HBS to transition from one field to another, and they were like, I knew I wanted to transition, but I don't know what I'm interested in. Like, let's say I could go anywhere, I don't know. And what I invited them to do was to be an anthropologist about themselves and just float around beside them and notice. Where do you stop and dwell if you're reading the headlines of a newspaper, which articles do you read when you're looking at the magazine rack, which do you pick up when you're looking at YouTube, like, be judgment free. Observe where you are dwelling. That's a pretty good first order of what catches your interest. When I ask people to do that and they come back and tell me, it always begins with. I was super surprised to find that.

[Anne Morris]

I. Yeah, I love that I'll sometimes phrase it with people. What makes you weird? You know, what makes you different? What made you weird as a kid? What did you do that the other kids weren't doing? Before I found my way to writing, one of the weird things I would do, which had nothing to do with my job or my identity, was to just to do these silly writing contests. And one of them that I won, which is still my greatest publishing achievement, was Starbucks. Starbucks was doing this. You know that they had a competition where you could send in quotes that they would put on the side of a cup. And I was like, I don't know, 22. And I was in a Star. I was in a Starbucks in New York. And I was like, oh, I can win that contest. So I sent in this quote. Well, six months later, I got a package in the mail from Starbucks with a pound of coffee and a tiny little single plunger coffee maker. And then like, 60 cups with my quote on the side. This is what I want. They put it all over the world in the hands of millions of Starbucks customers. I know, because a subset of those customers has tracked me down for the last 20 years. Because the quote starts, the irony of commitment is that it's deeply liberating.

[Frances Fry]

There's my girl.

[Anne Morris]

And so, and so I still get messages like, I decided to propose to my wife or I decided to quit my job. So that was fucking weird. Right? And yes, I got a signal back that, okay, maybe there was something here. So that was useful. But the more useful data, in my experience and my experience coaching people is the fact that I was doing it in the first place.

[Frances Fry]

I love it. What do you do? That's weird. What are you doing on the down low?

[Anne Morris]

What are you doing on the down low? Yeah, that doesn't really fit with the Persona you have shared with the world.

[Frances Fry]

Yeah, it's really good. It's really good what I'm doing on the down low right now.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah. This is something I feel like I should ask my wife.

[Frances Fry]

Oh, I'm creating crazy shit all day long.

[Anne Morris]

All day long. And it is, if you look at the pattern, a clue to the things you're passionate about and the gifts you can share with the world. This is another episode. But it is, to your point, absolutely legitimate place to start. And if you really are struggling, start here.

[Frances Fry]

Yeah. I do think it's just a beautiful way. And if. That, if I anthropologically observed what I'm doing, I am experimenting like crazy with the art form of videos for teaching.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah.

[Frances Fry]

Because. And it reveals I really want to democratize access to education like I really want to. And I don't know how, but I think videos are gonna be part of it. And so if you saw me on the down low, when you're like, what are you doing? For sure, this is what I'm doing.

[Anne Morris]

No, in the middle of the night, that's what you're doing.

[Frances Fry]

That's what I'm doing.

[Anne Morris]

You know, early morning, that's what you're doing. And it absolutely connects back up to what you are most deeply passionate about, which is scaling access to learning and insight to everyone. I think that's how I would summarize your mission in the world.

[Frances Fry]

Yeah.

[Anne Morris]

But here's the thing. This top down mission purpose, we're going to rehabilitate the word passion.

[Frances Fry]

Yes.

[Anne Morris]

God bless you, Scott Galloway.

[Frances Fry]

And Reid Hoffman.

[Anne Morris]

And Reid Hoffman. Scott's been on the show, passionate about. We are so rooting for these beautiful emotional men. Build empires on top of their passion.

[Frances Fry]

And influence our boys.

[Anne Morris]

Please, please continue to. Okay, but that's not enough. We also need to think about this problem from the bottom Up. Which is what are the. Okay. We've dealt with the macro, passion, purpose, but you also have to deal with your micro needs.

[Frances Fry]

I like this.

[Anne Morris]

On a daily basis, this is where.

[Frances Fry]

You and I really, we go down different paths. This is a fork in the road.

[Anne Morris]

And we can't outrun these. And this was a hard lesson for me to learn. I started out in the not for profit world. The mission was deeply activating. The daily experience was so brutal for me in some of these organizations because I had a need for steep learning, variety, competition, risk taking. Like I have to have a certain amount of risk in my Life. And we're 20 years into the marriage, so if I'm not getting it at home.

[Frances Fry]

Yeah, no, no, no, no. Get it at home, get it at home.

[Anne Morris]

I gotta go. I gotta take responsibility and go out in the world and do like stuff with stakes.

[Frances Fry]

Yeah.

[Anne Morris]

You know, get on stages and build companies that might fail and all that stuff. I gotta go get those needs met. So what I'll say to people is, okay, mission great, beautiful, let's figure it out. But now you wake up in the morning, you go into work. What happens next?

[Frances Fry]

Yeah. And here's how I like if I was going to take that beautiful thought and just put in five categories of bottom up needs. And I like to think about them because you and I, we're similar on a minority of them. Oh.

[Anne Morris]

The overlap is minimal. I think that's why we're good collaborators.

[Frances Fry]

I think it's really beautiful. But so variety, you need it in so many aspects of your life. You are like desperately seeking variety. I am desperately seeking the optimal way once I have optimal mastery.

[Anne Morris]

Optimal way, like it's a totally different meaning.

[Frances Fry]

There is not a lot of variety in mastery. I mean, there's variety early on when you're learning, but as you get closer and closer.

[Anne Morris]

And so for example, like 10,000 hours. Do you know how much my throat closes whenever I hear you're supposed to. You need to do something for 10,000 hours before you're good at it. Oh my God, it's my nightmare.

[Frances Fry]

And then for me, it also goes all the way down to, you know, what I eat. Like, I do not seek variety in what I eat. I think it's a really serious thing. Makes me neither a good or bad person. You seek a lot of variety in what you eat. Makes you.

[Anne Morris]

I'm not coaching me to remove the judgment.

[Frances Fry]

Yeah, yeah, you come at me with a lot of judgment on this one. Variety is not superior.

[Anne Morris]

You're eating the same turkey sandwich you've had for 50 years.

[Frances Fry]

And there is. And your variety is not superior to my consistency.

[Anne Morris]

Not. No. But here's what's really important about this conversation. We'll get the listeners decide. Here's what's really important about the conversation is it is about without judgment because this is another inside job without self judgment.

[Frances Fry]

I'd like a little without other judgment, but go ahead.

[Anne Morris]

Naming, naming, owning, solving for your micro needs at work.

[Frances Fry]

Your needs and yeah, and I think it really is important and if you need variety, don't deny yourself variety. And if you need consistency, don't deny yourself consistency. And I think those are on the variety and the mastery. Where you and I do overlap I think is that we both need steep learning curves. Boredom comes in fast and furious and hard for us and when we are bored nothing good happens. And so we have to keep making things more challenging in order to be able to stick to it.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah, often it's one of the places where I'll start coaching people is okay, let's come up with a list like what do you need most from work? Give me your top five and how, like how well are you meeting these needs? You not this corporation that is doing this to you. How well are you meeting these needs right now? And then how might we evolve this job so that it gets closer to what you need? And if you can't get it here, then let's plot an exit for where you can find it.

[Frances Fry]

I love the bottom up and the top down and the top down needs and the anthropologists judgment, free perspective of ourselves.

[Anne Morris]

One more, I want to get into one more sandbox on this Francis. And I'm going to describe this, this one as add a zero.

[Frances Fry]

Yeah, I love this.

[Anne Morris]

And there is a point. You and I talk to a lot of companies, we work with a lot of great teams. There is a point early on in every conversation we have with leaders and teams of leaders where you say some variation on oh, interesting. Those goals are terrific. And what would happen if we added a 0? You also sometimes call this the magic dust question where if you could sprinkle magic dust, what would be different tomorrow than it is today? It is a totally electric moment when you give people license to really dream. So what does that look like for people listening on the scale of an individual life?

[Frances Fry]

Yeah. So I think in my experience, and this is quite counter to a lot of the popular advice that I hear. So I will tell you in my experience, but I'm right. But I will just tell you humbly in my Experience that the more ambitious you are, you will achieve more. Ambition is our friend. So adding a zero to a goal is a delicious way to thrive. Cutting a timeline in half is a delicious way to experiment and find new creative ways of doing things. And I sometimes look at the advice the same way that I hear the advice that, oh, passion is overrated. I often hear that from a lot of men. You know what I hear from a lot of women without their saying it? It's, you know what, just concentrate on the micro steps. Just do one small thing today. And it's so empathetic. But I couldn't disagree more. Don't start with a small thing, add a zero. I actually think if you start with a small thing, you're gonna end up in a path that I can totally see the destination from here. And I don't wanna be able to see the destination. I want it to be that far away.

[Anne Morris]

And the path may be one step at a time. But what I hear you saying to people is, let's pick a defin is let's pick a destination that's worthy of you. Like this is you're gonna get up every day and do something hard.

[Frances Fry]

So, like, what I need, and I need it to feel, I want you to give it your all. I don't want it to be so possible as just do one micro thing tomorrow. Oh, that's your 10,000 hours. How your throat closes. My throat closes to this so much because I'm like, these people are not gonna live up to their potential if you let them do that.

[Anne Morris]

And people sometimes ask about timelines. I think a lot about Peter Drucker's observation that people often overestimate what they can do in a year, but they underestimate what they can do in five years. And so the timeline I'll sometimes push people on is three to five years. Let's start with the three to five years. If you want to dare to dream, and I suspect you're shorter, but if you want to dare to dream what your life could feel like in three to five years, what could happen? What could go right? As human beings, we're wired to think so much about what could go wrong, let's really bring some ambition to what could go right.

[Frances Fry]

And I don't know if it's the age of AI or now. I feel like we are just way underestimating what can happen in three to five years. I don't even know how to think about that. I mean, here's my reference point. Most people have annual development conversations and they talk about like, oh, what am I going to do this year? When I, I'm like, that's obsolete. You should be having them quarterly and then monthly and some of your high performers weekly and maybe even daily. So this notion of like, even, even. When you say three to five years, I'm like, oh, goodness, no. And I bet if Peter Drucker were alive today, he would update the time. But I'm just hypothesizing there.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah, I, I, he was in a sleepier time. I like dragging him into this against his will. Yeah, but I, I think that provocative thought, I love it. In the age of AI, how would we update that observation? And I think point is very well taken. Here's what I'll also say is a lesson from our work is that a huge amount of energy gets released once you figure out what the ambition is. A huge amount of energy gets released from simply beginning. Oh, yeah, like taking action, addressing problems, choosing to be in motion. It's not just an antidote to anxiety, which it is. Right. It also, you know, just think about the emotional impact, the release of relief into the system and, and the license to dream about what could go right as we, as we start to move forward. There is just tremendous power to being in motion.

[Frances Fry]

You know, I would have these coaching conversations with people, and we'd be halfway through and I got them in touch with their ambition. And then they were like, all right, you know what? I'm gonna schedule a meeting with you in three to five weeks. I'm gonna go, really think about it. Three to five weeks, and we'll have a planning session then. And I was like, or how about now? And I became known as how about now? I'm sure people closed their doors when they saw me coming, but I have to tell you, when we did the how about now? It was gorgeous. Often better than the three to five weeks. Because in those three to five weeks, yes, you're planning, but you're also just finding creative ways to say no and to limit your ambition.

[Anne Morris]

I love that. As a summary mantra bumper sticker for this second part of the equation, which is to get started on Dreaming Big. Thank you for listening to this episode. Your participation helps us make great shows like this. Please keep reaching out to us. If you want to figure out a question about your own workplace problem together, send us a message, email, call or text [e-mail] or 234- FIXABLE. That's 234-349-2253.

[Frances Fry]

We hope you all take a great break this summer. Our team at Fixable will definitely be doing so. We'll have a lot of intentional recovery in the next few weeks. We're we're gonna share episodes from other shows that we love and we hope that you'll enjoy. Em.

[Anne Morris]

Fix the Bull is a podcast brought to you by Ted and Pushkin Industries. It's hosted by me, Anne Morris and me, Frances Frey. This episode was produced by Rahima Nassa. Our team includes Constanza Gallardo, Banban Chang, Michelle Quint, Daniela Baloriso and Roxanne Hylash.

[Frances Fry]

Our show is mixed by Louis at Storyard.

[Elise Hu]

This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Each Apple product, like the iPhone 16, is thoughtfully designed by skilled designers. The titanium Apple Card is no different. It's laser etched, has no numbers and it earns you daily cash on everything you buy, including 3% back on everything at Apple. Apply for Apple Card on your iPhone in minutes subject to credit approval. Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch terms and [e-mail].

[Anne Morris]

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[Frances Fry]

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[Anne Morris]

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[Frances Fry]

Thanks Ma.

[Anne Morris]

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[E]

Hey, I'm Trisha Hershberger, gamer, streamer and Amazon Live host. I stream about tech, gaming and the stuff I actually buy right here with my community. And Amazon Live makes it easy. Streaming, gameplay, scouting, new gear, chatting and shopping all at the same time. That's my kind of multitasking. And it all happens on Amazon Live. Shop on Amazon Live by searching Amazon Live in the Amazon Shopping app and follow your favorite creators today.