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TED Talks Daily Book Club: How to Be Free: A Proven Guide to Escaping Life’s Hidden Prisons | Shaka Senghor
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- [00:00]
Elise Hu
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Shaka Senghor
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Elise Hu
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- [00:41]
Shaka Senghor
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- [00:44]
Elise Hu
Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's Upwork.com post a job for free and get started. Today at Chubb, we set the gold standard in insurance. We deliver tailored solutions that help protect what matters most to you, backed by bold innovation and forward thinking coverage. That's excellence in action. Learn more@chubb.com you're listening to TED Talks Daily where we bring you new ideas and conversations to spark your curiosity every day. I'm your host Elise Hu. Today we're bringing you a new installment of our book club series where we check out new books from TED Speakers Shaka Singor is an entrepreneur and author of the New York Times best selling books Righting My Wrongs and Letters to the Sons of Society. He's also a resilience expert and recognized soul igniter in Oprah's inaugural Super Soul 100. Shaka's insight and wisdom is the result of his extraordinary journey from incarceration to transformation. Born and raised in Detroit, his life took a sharp turn at an early age due to economic hardship and abuse. He spent 19 years in prison, including seven in solitary confinement, before finding his own path to freedom. Today his mission is to show that everyone can achieve freedom and create a life full of possibility, purpose and joy. Shaka and I sat down for this month's book club to talk about his new book, how to be a Proven Guide to Escaping Life's Hidden Prisons. Through sharing the profound lessons he learned in and out of prison, he flips the script on traditional definitions of freedom. We discuss the practices he developed to embody a mind of joy, why he feels it's important to share his story, and why he believes that reinvention isn't just possible, but within everyone's reach. Because for Shaka. Most of our hidden prisons have doors. We just need to learn how to open them. Here's our conversation. Shaka, welcome to TED Talks Daily.
- [02:55]
Shaka Senghor
Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here today.
- [02:59]
Elise Hu
Well, you are no stranger to TED. You've given multiple TED and TEDx talks. But would you introduce yourself briefly for those who don't know your story?
- [03:09]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, I mean, I grew up in the city of Detroit in a working class family. And, you know, on the outside looking in, it was just this incredible model for what it means to be a working class family in America. You know, I was an honor roll scholarship kid with dreams of being a doctor. And my life completely changed due to the circumstances that was happening in our household. Unfortunately, we were navigating very tough circumstances, and as a kid, I decided to run away. When I was around about 13, 14 years old, I found myself seduced into the drug trade. And within the first six months, I dealt with every horror that comes with that culture. My childhood friend was murdered. I was robbed at gunpoint. I was beaten nearly to death. And despite that, you know, as a kid just trying to find his way and fit in, I found myself still immersed in that culture. And when I was about 17 years old, I was shot multiple times standing on the corner of my block. Yeah. And this, you know, it's one of the. One of the things that, you know, as a kid, you're navigating this high level of trauma and with no tools and no support. And so I went to the hospital, they extracted two of the bullets, they left one of the bullets in. And when I came back to my neighborhood, what I didn't realize back then, obviously I know now, is that I came back with, like, ptsd, which is very common in the inner city where there's high levels of gun violence. And within my family alone, I mean, there's been at a minimum, 10 of us who have been victims of gun violence. So what happened was that I created a narrative that said if I found myself in conflict, I would shoot first. And tragically and unfortunately, about 14, 16 months later, I shot and caused a man's death and was sentenced to 17 to 40 years in prison, where I ended up serving a total of 19 years, with seven of those years being in solitary confinement. And it was in that dark environment that I began to really start to reimagine life.
- [05:18]
Elise Hu
We are here today to talk about your new book, how to Be A Proven Guide to Escaping Life's Hidden Prisons. It came out just last week Congratulations on the release.
- [05:29]
Shaka Senghor
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
- [05:31]
Elise Hu
But you're pretty prolific. You already have two previous books out, Righting My Life, Death and Redemption in an American Prison, and Letters to the Sons of A Father's Invitation to Love, Honesty and Freedom. How do you see this latest book as different from your first two? And why did you decide to structure it as a blueprint?
- [05:52]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, that's a great question. Yeah, I mean, it's mind blowing just hearing you read back those titles. And to think like, you know, it's three major titles in 10 years, which is. I'm still taking that in right now.
- [06:05]
Elise Hu
I know how hard it is to write a book. I don't think I'm gonna do another one because the first one was so hard.
- [06:10]
Shaka Senghor
It is no joke.
- [06:11]
Elise Hu
For you to write three inside of 10 years is pretty impressive, but. Yes. How would you distinguish this one?
- [06:17]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, I mean, I think with the first two, the first one was really about helping people understand who's actually in prison. You know, I would get people to say, oh my God, you sound like so intelligent. You don't sound like you've ever been in prison. And I was just. I knew they meant it as a compliment, but I felt like they don't know these incredible men I left behind. And so I wanted to tell that story of how, you know, a kid who doesn't fit the narrative that America has had for those who end up in our systems, how they can come to be in those systems. And so that's what that was about. The second book was like. You know, I have all these experiences as a mentor working with young men across the country, globally. And I just decided to write these very intimate letters to just the society of young men. But really recognizing that my sons embodied all of these young men that I've met on my encounter. And so it's just a book full of fatherly wisdom from a very unique perspective. This book right here is the culmination of life wisdom as lived experience and really being able to share the things that I've learned throughout the course of my time incarcerated, but also what I've learned post incarceration. You know, I can't tell you how many people have come up to me over the years and said, just listening to your story has helped me break free of this anger, of this inability to forgive, of self doubt. It's given me confidence. And these are people who on the outside looking in, appear as confident as any human being could be and as accomplished. And what I realize is that we all have Our hidden prisons. But every prison has a door. And because I have this wisdom of experience of actually having walked through a real prison, there were life lessons that I could share to a general audience in a broader audience. And so I am so excited to just get this book out into the world. And just the immediate feedback has been unbelievable and mind blowing.
- [08:25]
Elise Hu
You start the book with a specific idea for the type of journey that it takes to find your inner self, to kind of look inward and connect with a story of your brother Sherratt and his murder. Can you tell us why you start off the book this way?
- [08:42]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah. You know, when I really was thinking about my own life, you know, it was in relation to my brother's end of life experience and him being murdered by a friend. And what I realized through my own process was two things was happening. One, I was trying to grieve my brother, and two, I was navigating the guilt of my own experience because I made somebody's family feel like my family was. And it was devastating to reconcile those two things. And what I realized is that grief is one of the toughest hidden prisons to get out of. There are people who I've talked to who have been grieving for decades. And so it's a very tough prison to get out of. And so I wanted to start the book with the toughest prison. I can't say to another human being, hey, you've grieved long enough, and tell them to just stop. That would be cruel. That would be mean. And so sometimes people don't realize how enduring grief can really prevent them from living the life that they are deserving of. And I was no different. I was very. I was very angry. I was depressed. I was. All the things I beat up on myself, like, what could I have done to make my brother's life outcomes different? And through that process, I landed on the one true key that I believe is the greatest opportunity to open those doors of grief. And that was gratitude. You know, I began to be really thankful for all the moments that I got a chance to spend with my brother. And that's how I've been able to navigate the grief and the guilt.
- [10:24]
Elise Hu
How old were you and how old was he when he lost his life?
- [10:28]
Shaka Senghor
So that was 20, 21. He was about 40. I think he was like, 41.
- [10:36]
Elise Hu
So you had 41 years with your brother until he was tragically killed?
- [10:41]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah.
- [10:41]
Elise Hu
Do you consider yourself somebody who has healed from that, or is it just this open wound that you'll always feel? I mean, grief is not Linear as we understand it.
- [10:53]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah. And I actually write about how grief is very. You know, sometimes it kind of snuggles up to you unexpectedly, sometimes it sneaks up to you, and then sometimes it's just like a sledgehammer that comes and just knocks a hole and drywall in your life. And for me is knowing that I have something that I go back to, you know, which is the gratitude. You know, the idea that one arrives at being healed is something that I think we've kind of bought into as a society because we want some type of end result to a thing. And I mean, you think about it, even in our work life, you know, someone passes, you get your bereavement leave, which is probably about two weeks on average, and then it's like, all right, back to work, back to zoom calls, back to meetings, and all grief isn't equal. But yet, you know, in our professional life, we treat it as such. And the way that I think of it is like we're on a healing journey. Uh, you know, and so we get a chance to kind of go in and out of these moments. And that's the power and beauty of being present in your life, is you can recognize like, hey, you know, today was a tougher day than yesterday, but I'm still thankful. And that allows me to kind of move forward. And so, you know, for me, it's really like offering these keys for people to be able to kind of move in and out of these moments and recognizing that we're constantly in a state of healing. And especially with grief, because it's the one. It's the one hidden prison that will be a recurring theme in your life. If you live long enough, you know, you're gonna lose loved ones, you're gonna lose opportunities, you're gonna lose relationships. And some of em you just outgrow, and then some of em are fractured and all the things. And so just having those tools that you can kind of go back to is something I wanted to really provide in an evergreen way.
- [12:37]
Elise Hu
This is a great opportunity to shift to talking about forgiveness, because that's another major step in the work to embrace freedom. As you write about. It's a word that's often directly associated with harm. And yet you call forgiveness a real act of self love, an act of grace versus justice. Can you expand on this?
- [12:58]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, you know, I think that oftentimes we're going through life and we're holding on and we're harboring resentment and anger and bitterness towards somebody who's done us. And you know, an egregious harm. Sometimes it's, you know, it's childhood trauma, you know, sometimes it's superficial. But the idea that this is somehow hurting the other person or somehow creating justice in a situation that may not have a resolve, we hold onto it with such determination. And so for me, what I realized is that forgiveness is what you do for yourself. You know, grace you extend to others. But the power and beauty of forgiving is really that you're free and your yourself up to live your best life possible. And the way that it showed up in my life is I was shot in March of 1990. It was literally 17 years old. And several decades later, I got a letter from the man who shot me. And he apologized. And I was just like, it was so mind blowing to get this letter, you know, and it brought up old feelings like I was, you know, the anger came back. And I immediately thought about, what have I preached in the world? You know, this idea that redemption is real. Second chances really do matter. And so the universe, you know, Creator, God, whatever you want to call it, was like, oh, so you believe in forgiveness and second chances? We're here. Let me give you your real test. And this is going to be a test unlike anything that you've ever imagined. And so he put this man right front and center in my life. And. And I was. The opportunity was there. You know, I could be angry. I can go back to that little boy who was hurt, and I can hold on to all of that, or I could say, you know what? I forgive this person. And so I sat down and started to write him a letter back. And then I just stopped. And I was like, you know, forgiveness doesn't require me to, like, extend my life to this person. Like, he's already caused harm in a way that's, you know, you can't repair that harm, but I can forgive him, and I can let that energy go and I can move on. And I could think about, who do I really want to write a letter to? And that's when I wrote this letter to my mother, because her and I have been on our own healing journey. And what I really wrote about in a letter was this time that her and I got a chance to spend together and how I got a chance to learn the experiences that shaped her life as a young mother. And that's what allowed me to really get to a deep space of forgiveness for my mother, who, you know, for years I had forgiven her with conditions. I had wrapped it kind of in this idea that, you know, yeah, I'LL forgive her if she's now the mother that I need her to be, and without consideration for her past experiences. And so when I wrote that letter, it was based on some time that I had spent with her and her sharing these deep, authentic stories of what her upbringing was. And, like, that's how the healing journey really settled for us around forgiveness. And that's the power and beauty of. It's like, you know, forgiving my mother was really about me, like, letting go of. Of the things that were holding me back as a parent, as a husband, as a friend. And I just didn't want to be, you know, trapped in that type of energy or anger.
- [16:27]
Elise Hu
Yeah. In your book, you start the chapter on forgiveness with a quote from Oprah, which really struck us. She said, quote, forgiveness is giving up the hope that the past could have been any different. What does it mean to you to have hope for the past in the first place? And why do we have to let it go? I think the story of your mom and your healing journey with your mom is really related to this.
- [16:51]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, absolutely. You know, when I was in that space of hurt, I kept going back to that little boy, you know, that little boy who yearned for the softness of a mother's love, the little boy who didn't want to be hit for things that, you know, he should not have been hit for. And, you know, just a retelling of that story. Well, maybe what if she wouldn't have done this? Or what if she wouldn't have done that? And the reality is those things had already happened. I couldn't go back and undo them. And so, basically, the inability to forgive and to get stuck in that narrative was almost like torturing oneself with something that no longer exists. And that, to me, was like, you know what? It couldn't have been any different because she couldn't have been any different. You know, the things that happened to her shaped who she was as a young mother. And once I was able to reconcile that, you know, it was one of the most powerful experiences, recognizing that what had happened and transpired in our childhood really did shape the way that we showed up in the world.
- [17:53]
Elise Hu
And now you're showing up for other people through your words and through your speaking. And even after all of this forgiveness of yourself, of others, of being forgiven, you write about this tension that you have to hold between gratitude and guilt, between embracing joy and feeling guilty. Could you expand on that a little bit?
- [18:16]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, that's a great question. You know, there's always this kind of tension that undergirds, you know, life. And I think in most people's lives and in minus can be a little bit more contrasted by the sharp differences between where I'm at at this stage of my life and where I come from. And within that there's this part of survivors kind of remorse and survivor's guilt. And I remember really trying to unpack this, this, you know, this kind of big idea around why was it hard for me to embrace and happiness and success in my life? And it was partially because I was still holding on to the guilt from my teenage decision that I made when I was a young hurt teenager. And that was really hard. And what I landed on is that me having joy does not remove joy from others. Me experiencing success at this point does not deprive anyone else from that experience. And, and ultimately, you know, my, my past is my past and my presence is what matters is being fully, you know, in this moment that I'm in, like even right now in this conversation, just bringing my whole self to it. And so what I, what I offer in a book is these kind of practices and these ways of like showing up, you know, journaling is one. It's one, it's probably the one that I turn to the most. One because I'm a writer. So I love the written word, but I see it as meditation on paper and I see it as an opportunity for you to go back and revisit and see the evolution of self. And that's how I've got to the space where I can experience these things.
- [19:56]
Elise Hu
Stick around. We'll be right back after a short break. This episode is sponsored by Stripe. Has your company ever wanted to test a new pricing model but couldn't? You're not alone. With AI and technology changing nearly every industry, the need for speed in updating new models, monetization models is essential. Stripe billing helps you bill and manage your customers however you want. From simple recurring billing to usage based billing and sales negotiated contract Millions of businesses worldwide rely on Stripe to grow their businesses their way. From the latest AI leaders scaling every second to centenarian household names launching exciting new revenue streams. Stripe Billing is built to handle them all. Because your business needs should dictate your billing system, not the other way around. Learn how Stripe billing can power any business or monetization model you can think of@swepe.com billing. Today's episode is brought to you by Wayfair. As the weather starts cooling down and days get shorter, I find myself wanting to make my space extra cozy. And Wayfair is exactly where I go to make that happen. I recently gave my kitchen a much needed upgrade with Wayfair's non slip kitchen mats and a colorful outdoor rug for entertaining. While the weather's still, still nice, these pieces instantly made my spaces feel more functional and inviting. And I love how easy it was to find exactly what I needed without breaking the budget. Whether you're looking for warm bedding to transition into fall, cozy reading chairs for those longer evenings, or kitchen essentials like that perfect espresso maker for homemade lattes, Wayfair has everything you need to cozify your space. From seasonal decor to storage solutions, there's something for every style and every home. Cozify your space with Wayfair's curated collection of easy, affordable fall updates. From comfy recliners to cozy bedding and autumn decor. Find it all for way less@wayfair.com that's W A Y F A I R.com Wayfair every style, every home I'd love for you to talk a little bit about your relationship with reading and writing, specifically journaling, and how that was such a big part of helping you break free, at least, you know, emotionally and spiritually when you were in prison.
- [22:21]
Shaka Senghor
I'm so happy you asked that question. It's one of my favorite things to talk about. And you know, it's also a tough thing to talk about. You know, I, I think of like this, you know, we hear the narratives that some people are born lucky, right? You're lucky to be born into a family of wealth or social status. You're lucky if you're 6, 8 and end up being 240 pounds and then you become LeBron. So there's this luck that we talk about. And for me, my luck, given the circumstances, was that I was actually literate in an environment where the average literacy rates are third grade. And I know that the reason that I'm here is now is because of my ability to read. And I was fortunate. I met some most incredible mentors in the world, these men who guided me to books. And they were so smart, they were so strategic. I was an angry young kid and they saw something redeemable in me and they knew that the way to reach me, they had to give me something that appealed to where I was at in life. And so they gave me like a lot of these gangster books, books about the underbellies of the streets, books by Iceberg Slim, like with titles like Pimp and Donald Gorn's Black Gangster and all of these books. And then those books Ran out. And that's when they was like, ah, here, you should read this. Malcolm X. You know, and when I read Malcolm X, what I fell in love with wasn't just his love for trying to, you know, help black people find their way, but the thing that struck me was his intellectual curiosity.
- [23:54]
Elise Hu
Yeah.
- [23:55]
Shaka Senghor
And his intellectual discipline. Like, him reading a dictionary from A to Z made me want to read the dictionary from A to Z. And him reading philosophy made me want to read philosophy. And so I got super curious, and I began to read everything I can get my hands on. Like, I mean, pop fiction. I was reading, like, Jackie Collins, Hollywood Wives and, you know, westerns and, you know, and Stephen King, who I think is just like one of the most fascinating, fascinating writers ever.
- [24:23]
Elise Hu
Yeah.
- [24:23]
Shaka Senghor
And, you know, then those books also led me to. To reading philosophy. And then I. When I was in solitary, I just structured my days as if I was at a university. And so I would study a subject every hour. You know, world history, African history, language. I tried to learn Spanish. I wasn't great. I can read some of it and understand, but I wasn't great at speaking it. But I was just like, I'm going to not let this environment, you know, destroy my sense of humanity. And in order to do that, I had to take some agency. And that agency was structured in those days. And then I would write into the evening, and my writing started with journaling. And when I started journaling, you know, I was at this place in my life where I was like, you know, I got this letter from my son. He told me his mom told him while I was in prison. And I was reading philosophy at the time. Socrates said, the unexamined life isn't worth living. And I remember just sitting with that, like, what does it mean to examine one's life? And that's when I began to journal. And I would journal when I was angry, when I was excited about something. Like, I just sat down and I call it my right or die moment. And it was like, write, as in.
- [25:36]
Elise Hu
W R I, T?
- [25:38]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was. It was like, if I don't write and get to the truth, I will definitely die in prison. Like, there was no. There was no in between for me. And so when I sat down to journal, I sat down with this understanding that I would only write at the point in which I was willing to be completely honest, uncensored, and just as raw as possible with myself. And that's what I did. You know, I would write those journals, and it would be painful, you know, the painful to see, the vulnerable boy, painful to see the harms that I've caused, the harms that had been caused to me. But what was powerful about it was that I was able to reassign responsibility. I had internalized a lot of things that had happened to me as if something was wrong with me. And being able to give that responsibility back was so powerful and beautiful, but it also allowed me to take responsibility for the harms that I had caused. And even in that, it was liberation, because I was like, okay, I can separate the act and the action from who I am as a human being, and I know who I want to be moving forward. And so, to me, it's like active journaling. Not just kind of a set it and forget it idea, but, like, no, you got to examine it. And then the other part of it is that journaling for me, just empowered me to see myself clearly. You know, one of the chapters, I talk a bit about shame, and one of the things about shame is that erases all your wins. You know, you can be having the most magical day. You could have got 10 things right, and you get one thing wrong, and it triggers that sense of shame, and it erases all those other 10 things you got right. What journaling does is it keeps the scorecard correctly.
- [27:28]
Elise Hu
Oh, I like that.
- [27:30]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah. You know, as a person, I was. I mean, I had done so much good that I hadn't given myself credit for it because I just couldn't feel it, you know, I couldn't feel it in my being.
- [27:42]
Elise Hu
I'm so glad you brought up shame and the difference between guilt and shame. We talked earlier about guilt, you know, like feeling bad about doing a thing, and then shame being, like, feeling bad about yourself, like you are bad versus that thing that you did. That action that you took was bad. You put it on the page. But now you speak very openly and honestly, too. Why was vulnerability such an important place to start for you?
- [28:08]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, you know, vulnerability was like, getting to the truth, you know, and knowing that, you know, as a father, how do I want to show up in the world? How do I want to lead, you know, as a mentor, as an entrepreneur? You know, how do I want to create, you know, great relationships with the people I work with? And for me, it was, like, getting real. You know, it was getting down to that truth and opening up. And I was struck by this whole idea that shame was really thinking something was wrong with you. And, like, that. It just. It just like all of a sudden kind of came together in a way that was extremely vulnerable. I mean, I was talking about something that had held me back for a significant part of my life, A memory from childhood that had created not just shame, but anger. You know, I had internalized an experience when a neighbor attempted to molest me. And in response to that, I burglarized his house out of anger. And then I got in trouble with my parents. And so what happened was that I internalized that. Well, it must be me. There must be something wrong with me. And that. That willingness to go into that story was the most freeing thing, you know, possible for me because I realized, like, I was just a kid. You know, I was a kid that had grew up with parents who didn't create space for me to tell them the story that would help them protect me.
- [29:41]
Elise Hu
Yeah.
- [29:42]
Shaka Senghor
And I was a kid who was preyed upon by somebody that my family trusted, and I was literally just a kid. And, like, so being able to get to that truth allowed me to really get to a space where I can help other people. You know, where I can. I'm willing to go into these spaces that are tough. You know, like, I built confidence over this. I've built resilience, because it, Lydia, is like, what I said, it's my ride or die. The truth has to live on those pages. Otherwise, it just kills me internally, and I just refuse to give it up in that way.
- [30:17]
Elise Hu
It seems like it's quite a difficult time or a difficult political environment to be talking with young men and boys about vulnerability, shame, compassion, empathy, because of all of this performative masculinity that is out there in the world today and being propagated on YouTube and on the podcasts and all those things. You work with boys and men, and you still talk with them about how important it is to be vulnerable, to be truly honest with ourselves. How well is that working in the environment that we're in right now?
- [30:53]
Shaka Senghor
You know, I think the idea of, like, all masculinity as kind of boxed into this package of toxic. I just think it's the wrong narrative. I think what I've expound in my experience as a mentor is that young males actually are open to being vulnerable. They just don't like to get hurt like any other human being. They don't want to be hurt. And so much of the focus on what creates and shapes the identity of young males is that you're only as good as your ability to provide and protect. That part is toxic. Right. There's nothing about our culture that says young men should be protected. It tells us that Society should be protected from us, but it never talks about how do we protect young males. And I can tell you, I have had more young men talk to me about being sexually assaulted as kids. And sadly, the way that this shaped in the culture is that it's something to brag about. So they don't oftentimes see it as assault. They see it as a rites of passage because we haven't created space to protect. You know, boys. You know, you think about gun violence in America and you think about the narrative that everybody has to be protected from. You know, who's been depicted as the villain in America's narrative, which has been black males. Right. Black males die at the, you know, as a result of gun violence at higher rates than anybody in the world, like black American males. So the idea that when you walk out your door, you know, your. Your physical being is up under constant threat of being annihilated, it's kind of tough to be think about being vulnerable. But the yearning is there, the desire is there. And so we just need more leadership that actually thinks about, you know, how are we raising men to lily, you know, be complete human beings? Because I think that's the extremes of it. Is that okay, if you're not toxic masculine, you got to be ultra feminine. And that's not. That doesn't work either. Right. So it's a human experience. You know, it's not really. It's not as gendered as we would like we think it is. I know it makes for great talking points and it probably sells tons of content because it creates conflict. But we're all on this human journey together, and getting to our truth is really what empowers us and really frees us to enjoy life and to show up in love and joy and happiness and fulfillment. And that's open to any and everybody.
- [33:30]
Elise Hu
I'm glad that you brought up some of the mentors to you in your life. You are also mentoring a lot of folks. Your friends and your author friends have also served as mentors and teachers to you in your work. What have they taught you about what it means to be a good teacher and good ancestor yourself?
- [33:54]
Shaka Senghor
I think sometimes with the roles of mentor educator, I think oftentimes we like to kind of button it up into these kind of neat boxes, right? Like, you know, I'm a mentor, so I meet with my mentees once a month and rinse and repeat, and it's a little bit more nuanced for that. Like in my life, you know, I think of the friends who I have that are, that are really deep friends, and they come from all different walks of life. And what I've learned from them in these deep, deep philosophical exchanges, intimate relationship exchanges, I mean, it's immeasurable, you know, and what I've learned is that you just have to show up. You know, whether it's formal or informal mentoring, you just have to show up. You know, I have a niece named Lagina who is just. I met her when I came home from prison. She was graduating college, and she's become such a brilliant leader in the world. And our philosophical exchange, I'm giving her books, she's giving me, you know, recommending it is the best thing. And so I would say the thing that I've learned more than anything is it has to be a reciprocal relationship. You know, sometimes mentors come in and they're like, you know, it's almost like they got a smoking jacket on in a pipe.
- [35:10]
Elise Hu
Wisdom.
- [35:10]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, yeah, let me share this wisdom. But I learned so much in turn from my mentees. You know, I've learned how to be a better dad, you know, just a better steward of my role in society and just how to continue to show up with fun. You know, they bring that part out of me. And so, and then my mentors, you know, you know, I've learned to really be thoughtful and be a good steward of the responsibilities that I'm given. And, you know, it's just a great, great relationship to have.
- [35:42]
Elise Hu
As you talk about hope and joy and love, say a little bit more about that. Why are embracing these things so fundamental to the work that you do? And how do you find and hold on to joy and love and convey that to others?
- [35:57]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, that's so. That's such a great question. It's the part of the book that I get the most excited about is that, you know, on the other side of some of these tough things, there is this, this opportunity to build incredible relationships and great life experiences and to be fully present in your life. And what I found is that when I'm fully present, there's so much joy to be found. And I didn't always know how to lean into that organically. It was something I had to, like, work toward. And I remember it hit me a couple of years ago, I was invited on this. I mean, this was like a dream trip that you could not even, you couldn't even like articulate how amazing this trip was. And my. And it was, it was. The trip was a 13 day trip to Italy on a yacht, Capri. And you just get A chance to be up and down the Mediterranean. I mean, five star chef. And only thing I had to do was get myself to Rome. That was it. And they took it from there, right? And I remember my first reaction to that was like, yeah, I probably shouldn't go. And so it was one of those things. It was the hidden prison of being able to yield to a moment, to be present in it, to accept that this too was my life, that it wasn't just the hard things, it wasn't just the painful things that I had to overcome. That joy, too, was a part of my life. And once I leaned into that, I went ahead that trip and it was. I mean, it still blows my mind a couple of years later. And I'm just like, I don't even know if I'll ever be at the top, that experience, but that's what it is. That in this world, especially now, you know, if you get caught up in a news cycle or doom scrolling, it feels like the world is coming to see the part at the seams and that nothing is worth waking up excited about. But then if you actually walk out your door and just take a stroll to your backyard, a stroll to your neighborhood and observe the beauty that is, that is in abundance, you'll realize that life is magical. And obviously, you know, I had an experience that took me away from that, right? Like I went, I went in 19 years without petting a dog or touching a flower or being able to, you know, stand by water like it was. I think I had. I didn't see the ocean until I was 40 years old. It's really about being mindful and being present and, you know, not taking things for granted. And so that's just how I try to show up in life.
- [38:25]
Elise Hu
How do you protect yourself when you share so much of yourself and your stories? I ask this because you just mentioned that when you went to Italy or you were offered this trip to Italy, you were sort of like, do I deserve this? Society also can have that judgment on people who have been incarcerated, right? You've done so many interviews over the years, you've shared yourself publicly. How do you navigate the judgment that can come from some corners of society that believes that those with violent past maybe don't quote unquote, deserve to be where they're at now?
- [39:04]
Shaka Senghor
So, one, there's the kind of social responsibility I have to really speak the truth to the experience of incarceration in America and beyond. And, you know, one of the things that I just remind people of is that 96% of people will get out of prison. And as a society, we have a choice in how those people come home. Do we want them to come home healthy, whole, able to contribute to society in a meaningful way, or do we want them to just come home broken beyond repair, which means that they'll without a doubt and without a question, cause significant harm to the rest of the society. And so that's more of like my social responsibility. And on the personal level, I used to, I used to have the reaction that I think most humans would have when someone's attacking them. I used to get offensive and you used to feel like I had to defend like my character and my personality. And then I just got to a point in life where what I realized is that people who attack someone who they think of as being vulnerable or unworthy are usually just attacking themselves internally and they're not happy with themselves, so they can't be happy for somebody else. They haven't created a deep enough human connection with their own experience where they can recognize we come with all type of, you know, experiences that differ even with given when we're brought up in the same circumstances. And so oftentimes when people are coming out and they're just, you know, being mean spirited, which is most of the time that anything is published about me publicly. You know, I just think about where am I, where am I at presently in the world? Because I can't get caught up in just other people's like, you know, misery and, and discontent. And there's a part of me that is also empathetic and compassionate toward understanding that there are people who have been victims of crime and that they are hurt and that, you know, when they see someone who's victimized other people, that it can trigger and bring something up. And I'm compassionate and thoughtful about that as well. And that's where, you know, standing up and being responsible and being accountable and not running from the decisions I made when I was a young man and accepting responsibility for that, you know, so that part has been also an integral part of my work is really working with victims of violent crimes and helping them to reconcile whatever, you know, hurt they're holding on to. And at times it can be heavy. But I've got to a place in my life where I'm really focused on helping people achieve the life outcomes that they desire and help them unlock themselves from those oftentimes self imposed prisons.
- [41:50]
Elise Hu
In your book you write that too often my own trauma had led me to traumatizing others. But this brutal cycle could only be broken by someone taking action that didn't involve payback. Why do you think it takes so much courage to stop to break that cycle?
- [42:09]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, I mean, it's the only way that we kind of bring things to a space where people can actually heal, you know, And I was thinking about my brother. You know, part of the gun violence in inner city is circular. You know, it's retribution, and it takes people to step in and disrupt that, you know, and given that I had a lived experience, like, I knew that I can speak to the young guys in my neighborhood who wanted to go and seek revenge and, like, understand their emotions, you know, And I think them hearing it from me meant something different than them hearing it from somebody who didn't come from that environment. But I think it's the way that we heal.
- [42:50]
Elise Hu
Besides for pushing for systemic criminal justice reform, can you tell us a little bit more about the work you're still doing in prisons, including the book club that you run?
- [43:01]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah. That's so exciting. So I launched the largest book club in prison history around one book. And I did that by giving a book away to over 1300 prisons and upwards of a million people who are incarcerated. And one of the things that was really important to me is making sure that they had access to this work, because it's very difficult to get books in the prison nowadays. Two of my. Both of my earlier books are actually banned in prisons throughout the country. But I wanted to make sure that people inside had access and that they really, you know, got a chance to interact with this work. And just recently I went to Rikers island in New York, where I spent the day with the Breakfast Club, Ho Charlemagne, Tha God. And former editor in chief of Vibe magazine, Daytwon Thomas. We went and we spent a day with women and men who had actually already read the book because they got it before the rest of the world got it. And they had so many great insights and questions and liberating moments. It was one of the most beautiful and powerful experiences I've ever had. And I plan to do this even more like my dream, like my dream job in the world. It's like if I had just the freedom to do would be to visit every prison in America and impart this wisdom and this hope and share. Because when I was in there, we just didn't have people like me come in and see us. And I know how much that matters.
- [44:34]
Elise Hu
Before we let you go. As you mentioned, hope 2 part question 1. What's scaring you these days? What's scaring you right now and then two. What gives you hope right now?
- [44:46]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah. You know, honestly, I don't think I'm afraid of anything at this point in my life. I think I've faced some of the toughest circumstances from the time I was a child. And one of the things that journaling actually did for me was it really showed me how courageous I had been in moments when I thought I was afraid. And what that courage looked like back then was that I kept fighting. You know, I kept advocating for myself. I'll never forget what it was like to be beat nearly to death, like, you know, when I was 14 years old by adult men and laying on that bathroom floor and telling myself, you know, you just got to get up and you'll be okay, and you can make it through this moment. So I realized through journaling that I've had more courage than I had given myself credit for. And so at this. This day and age, I don't. I don't think there's anything that I fear, because I realized that life is just life. There's events that are beyond our control, and I can only control what's in my dominion. What gives me hope is just every moment I'm in, you know, every moment I'm in is the moment of hope, you know, the ability to be present with those around me, to be present with myself, to be fully in a sense of enjoyment, wonderment about life and not losing sight of that. And so that's the work, right? It's like I have to. I'm like anybody else. I'm no different. Where I can drift off into what's happening, you know, three weeks from now or what happened. I just bring myself back to the moment. What are the moments you're in? What is joyful about this moment? What is magical and special about this moment? And that's what gives me hope, the ability to be present in any moment that I'm in.
- [46:27]
Elise Hu
Shaka, what a delight it's been to spend this time with you. And thank you for being so present with me and our listeners. And congratulations again.
- [46:35]
Shaka Senghor
Thank you so much. It's truly been an honor, and I'm so happy we got a chance to do this.
- [46:44]
Elise Hu
That was Shaka Senghor in conversation with me, Elise Hu, for the TED Talks Daily Book Club. And that's it for today. TED Talks Daily is part of the TED Audio Collective. This episode was produced by Lucy Little and edited by Alejandra Salazar. The TED Talks Daily team includes Martha Estefanos, Oliver Friedman, Brian Greene, and Tanzika Sangmarniva. Additional support from Emma Tobner and Daniella Balarezo. I'm Elise Hu. I'll be back tomorrow with a fresh idea for your feed. Thanks for listening. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you can see Save some cash? Progressive makes it easy. Just drop in some details about yourself and see if you're eligible to save money when you bundle your home and auto policies. The process only takes minutes and it could mean hundreds more in your pocket. Visit progressive.com after this episode to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.
- [47:56]
Shaka Senghor
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