TED Talks Daily Book Club: Human Nature—Nine Ways to Feel About Our Changing Planet | Kate Marvel

Podcast: TED Talks Daily
Host: Elise Hu
Guest: Dr. Kate Marvel
Date: November 16, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode features climate scientist and author Dr. Kate Marvel, discussing her new book Human Nature: Nine Ways to Feel About Our Changing Planet. Instead of the typical prescriptive or data-driven exploration of climate change, Marvel’s book offers a unique and deeply human perspective, using nine distinct emotions as lenses through which to examine the crisis. The conversation unpacks why emotions matter in science communication, the complexity of feelings climate change provokes, and the need for collective, systemic solutions. Marvel shares personal experiences, stories from science and mythology, and practical reasons for both hope and grief.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why a Book About Feelings?

• Science and Emotion ([03:27]):
  Marvel explains her realization that scientists pretending to have no feelings is dishonest and counterproductive. She argues for integrating emotion with scientific communication:

  “As scientists, we don't make ourselves more credible when we pretend we don't feel anything. That makes us liars. And I didn't want to be a liar.” —Kate Marvel (03:47)

• Marvel parallels science with journalism, both fields that seek truth but must acknowledge the humanity behind their work ([04:44]).

2. The Nine Emotions Approach

• Range of Feelings ([05:05]):
  The book explores wonder, anger, guilt, fear, grief, surprise, pride, hope, and love as valid responses to climate change. Marvel critiques climate communications that push a single emotional narrative:

  “It seemed like [media] was telling you to pick one feeling... abject terror, or rage, or staggering guilt... But I don't think there is any one way to feel about climate change.” —Kate Marvel (05:27)

• Emotions as Framing Devices:
  Emotions aren’t just responses; they help us process the enormity and complexity of the planetary crisis.

3. Climate Communication Challenges

• Limitations of Facts Alone ([06:58]):
  Marvel acknowledges the scientific impulse to believe “one more chart or table” will persuade, but emphasizes:

  “That’s not what moves people... we are story machines.” —Kate Marvel (07:50)

• Purpose of the Book:
  Not a guide to managing climate anxiety, but an exploration of how vast and amazing the planet is, and the mix of feelings it elicits.

4. Bridging the Science–Society Divide

• Intended Audience ([08:46]):

  “I want people who don't think of themselves as science people... to read this book and get a picture of what the science says, but also what the history says, what stories we can tell about climate change.” —Kate Marvel

• Beyond Scientists:
  Climate change affects all of us; addressing emotions helps bring the issue out of the purely scientific realm.

5. Stories, Mythology, and Narrative

• Cassandra & Prophecy ([09:58]):
  Marvel uses the myth of Cassandra, cursed to foresee disaster but never be believed, as a metaphor for climate science. But she “inverts the myth”:

  “How amazing must it have been to be the only one who knows the truth?... There is something wonderful... about the fact that we understand anything about this planet at all.” (10:27)

6. Human Agency: Predictions vs. Projections

• Conditional Futures ([11:32]):

  “We don’t make predictions about the future; we make projections... And the reason that's important is that really the future is still in our hands.” —Kate Marvel
  Climate models are “world-building machines” that respond to human stories and choices, highlighting our agency.

7. Historical Examples of Success

• Ozone Hole & Acid Rain ([13:13]):
  Both Marvel and Hu remember fears about the ozone hole and acid rain growing up. These were addressed globally through political action (e.g., Clean Air Act), offering hope for climate action:

  “It’s appropriate to point out and acknowledge that human beings can do really bad things, but we can also do really good things.” —Kate Marvel (14:29)

8. Surviving vs. Thriving

• Beyond Non-Extinction ([16:11]):
  Marvel stresses the “wide gap between merely surviving and thriving.” Climate action should aim for positive societal transformation, not just disaster prevention.

  “I want something better than not not extinct, because I have higher standards than that.” —Kate Marvel (16:55)

9. The State of the World & Irreversible Change

• Acknowledging Loss ([18:10]):

  “No climate change is not an option anymore... It's not necessarily demoralizing, that's just reality. We can still prevent the worst-case scenario to a large extent. Every ton of carbon dioxide matters and every tenth of a degree matters. Climate change is not binary.” —Kate Marvel (19:36)

10. Systemic Solutions vs. Individual Actions

• COVID as a Case Study ([20:44]):
  Emissions during COVID only fell slightly; individual behavior change alone isn’t enough. The concept of the “personal carbon footprint” was popularized by fossil fuel companies to deflect from systemic responsibility.

  “If you try to drive your personal carbon footprint to zero, you'll find that's impossible because you are embedded in a society...” —Kate Marvel (22:30)

• Community & Policy Action ([23:16]):
  Focus should be on collective change—communities, workplaces, schools—implementing accessible solutions (e.g., electrification, urban design, dietary shifts). Many solutions are “boring” and reassuringly mundane.

11. Speed and Scale of Change

• Transformation and Resistance ([24:43]):
  Solar and wind innovations are accelerating, but organized opposition and slow scale-up remain significant problems:

  “We do have almost all of the tools that we need ... The question is pushing harder, not giving up.” —Kate Marvel (26:15)

12. Who Are We Saving?

• Redefining 'Save the Planet' ([26:49]):

  “I am 100% sure there will still be a rock in this position orbiting the sun... what matters is saving ourselves.” —Kate Marvel

13. Grief for the Planet

• Personal and Planetary Loss ([27:20]):
  Marvel describes her grief at watching beloved landscapes change, comparing it to learning about a distant loved one's illness. She reflects on deep geological time and how fast changes today are:

  “Things are not supposed to be changing that fast. And that's disorienting. And for me, it's deeply sad.” —Kate Marvel (29:21)

14. Nature, Health, and Identity

• Personal Health Crisis ([33:00]):
  Marvel shares how surviving a blood clot made her feel both part of and separate from nature, reframing her relationship with the world:

  “We’re gonna have to constantly renegotiate our relationship with nature. And that’s what you have to do in any relationship that matters.” (34:01)

15. Parenting, Hope, and Future Generations

• Hope in Action ([35:15]):
  Marvel reframes hope as a verb:

  “When I talk to my kids about the future... we don't talk about hope as something you have, we talk about hope as something you do.”
  She encourages empowering the next generation to be part of the solution.

16. Embracing Many Emotions

• All Feelings Are Valid ([36:45]):

  “Feeling one thing does not preclude feeling something else... You are allowed to feel wonder and awe... and also feel sad... and guilty.” —Kate Marvel (37:16)

17. Innovation, Technology, and Limits

• Tech Fixes and Realism ([38:06]):
  Marvel discusses renewables and more speculative techno-solutions (carbon capture, solar geoengineering), but insists:

  “We can't just plant our way out of climate change... [carbon dioxide removal] is a little bit like having your stomach pumped. You want that to be an option, but you should probably stop drinking poison.” —Kate Marvel (41:07)

18. Careers and Collective Action

• There’s a Role for Everyone ([41:33]):

  “Whatever you are good at, whatever you're passionate about, you can find a role in helping drive climate action.”

19. Sustaining Hope — What Keeps Kate Going

• Daily Practices ([43:14]):
  Finds nourishment in curiosity, awe, in-person connections, and reading physical books rather than doomscrolling.

  “It feels almost subversive... to pay sustained attention to something that is not making somebody money.”
  “Communities, people, us. What matters is us. And we can go on and we have to win this fight.” —Kate Marvel (44:39)

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Cassandra’s Curse:

  “How amazing must it have been to be the only one who knows the truth?” —Kate Marvel (10:27)

• On Systemic Change vs. Individual Trying:

  “The concept of the personal carbon footprint was invented by BP. It's a fossil fuel industry creation.” —Kate Marvel (22:30)

• On Feeling Many Things:

  “Feeling one thing does not preclude feeling something else... You are allowed to feel wonder and awe... and also feel sad.” —Kate Marvel (37:16)

• On Planetary Identity:

  “I am 100% sure there will still be a rock in this position orbiting the sun. Okay, climate change or no climate change. But again, people, higher standards... what we actually mean is saving ourselves.” —Kate Marvel (26:49)

• On Hope as a Verb:

  “We don't talk about hope as something you have, we talk about hope as something you do.” —Kate Marvel (35:32)

Timestamps: Essential Segments

• [03:08] — Kate Marvel introduces the book’s mission
• [05:05] — The nine emotions and why one feeling isn’t enough
• [09:58] — The Cassandra myth and believing truth
• [11:32] — Human agency in projections, not predictions
• [13:35] — Ozone hole, Clean Air Act, historical hope
• [16:11] — Thriving vs. merely surviving
• [20:44] — COVID-19 emissions drop and systems change
• [22:30] — “Personal carbon footprint” industry myth
• [24:43] — Solutions: technology progress and political obstacles
• [26:49] — Whom are we saving in ‘saving the planet’?
• [27:20] — Grief, geology, and personal loss
• [33:19] — Health and negotiating our place in nature
• [35:15] — Parenting and hope as a ‘doing’
• [38:06] — Technological innovation, limits, and analogies
• [41:33] — Climate careers: everyone can participate
• [43:14] — What nourishes hope for Marvel

Final Takeaways

• Kate Marvel’s approach to climate issues is radically human—refusing to separate science from feeling, and encouraging the acceptance of many emotions at once.
• Individual action matters in context, but real solutions require systemic transformation, innovation, and collective action.
• Hope is not a trait—it's a practice. Wonder, love, grief, and even rage all have a place in the climate story, and acting from these feelings makes us fully human.
• Marvel finds solace and motivation in scientific curiosity, physical books, and community.

For a deeper, more emotionally resonant understanding of climate change—and your own place within it—Marvel's perspective urges you: it's not about feeling the “right” emotion, but about letting yourself feel everything, and then acting from that truth.