TED Talks Daily Book Club: Love Letter to a Garden | Debbie Millman

Summary

TED Talks Daily: Book Club Episode Summary Episode: TED Talks Daily Book Club: Love Letter to a Garden | Debbie Millman
Release Date: April 20, 2025

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Introduction to the Book Club and Guest Speaker

In this episode of TED Talks Daily, host Elise Hu welcomes Debbie Millman, renowned writer, educator, artist, designer, and host of the acclaimed TED podcast Design Matters. They delve into Millman's newly released illustrated book, Love Letter to a Garden, co-authored with her wife, Roxane Gay. The book merges storytelling with original recipes, encapsulating Millman's journey into gardening and exploring broader themes of creation, resilience, and the beauty of nurturing life.

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The Genesis of Love Letter to a Garden

[03:24] Elise Hu:
"We’re talking about Debbie's journey toward becoming a gardener and everything else that goes into the loving act of tending to the soil."

Debbie Millman shares how her foray into gardening was catalyzed by her publisher, Timbra Press, Hachette's gardening imprint. Initially skeptical about her gardening prowess, Millman embraced the project as a narrative quest to become a gardener rather than producing a conventional gardening guide. This approach highlights her expertise in visual storytelling, combining various art forms with written narratives to convey deeper personal and universal themes.

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Embracing a Quest Over Success

[05:15] Debbie Millman:
"I have moments of success, for sure. But I've always been intrigued by gardening... it's endlessly fascinating."

Millman emphasizes viewing her gardening journey as a quest rather than a straightforward success story. She reflects on the magical transformation of a seed into a flourishing plant, illustrating her enduring fascination with growth and the inherent potential within small beginnings. This metaphor extends to personal growth and creativity, underscoring the beauty in gradual development and persistent effort.

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Rediscovering Wonder Through Gardening

[06:35] Elise Hu:
"I actually would love for you to read that passage."

[06:47] Debbie Millman:
"It was then and there I began to associate gardening with wonder."

Millman recounts childhood memories of planting apple seeds with her grandmother in Staten Island, symbolizing the onset of her association between gardening and a sense of wonder. However, personal hardships, including her parents' divorce and subsequent family challenges, dampened this innate sense of awe. Returning to gardening later in life served as a medium to reclaim that lost wonder, fostering a renewed appreciation for the natural world.

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Gardens as Urban Sanctuaries and the High Line Effect

[10:27] Debbie Millman:
"Gardens in an urban environment are a respite from the pace, the freneticness, the ferocity of the city."

Millman discusses the pivotal role of gardens within urban settings, describing them as peaceful retreats amidst the chaos of city life. She highlights the High Line in New York City as a prime example of transforming urban spaces into accessible gardens, inspiring similar projects globally. This "High Line Effect" underscores the universal human need for natural sanctuaries, enhancing mental well-being and community engagement in urban landscapes.

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Addressing Climate Change and Environmental Stewardship

[13:24] Debbie Millman:
"I've seen firsthand... chunks of ice that have crumbled off of these icebergs. That is evidence of these icebergs melting."

Millman passionately addresses the undeniable impacts of climate change, drawing from her experiences in Antarctica. She underscores the urgent need for collective responsibility in preserving the planet, advocating for respect and awe towards the natural world. Her insights reflect a profound commitment to environmental stewardship, emphasizing that humanity's survival is intrinsically linked to the health of our planet.

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Navigating Failure in Gardening and Personal Growth

[17:57] Debbie Millman:
"Failure in the garden means the death of these plants that were living. And without sounding too dramatic, I just felt like a murderer."

Millman candidly shares her struggles with gardening, recounting repeated failures that led to feelings of inadequacy and frustration. Initially hesitant to seek help due to fears of appearing foolish, she eventually reached out to experienced gardeners who guided her through her challenges. This vulnerability highlights the broader theme of embracing failure as a pathway to learning and resilience, both in gardening and personal endeavors.

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The Role of Community and Support in Overcoming Challenges

[20:07] Debbie Millman:
"I'm afraid I'm going to look foolish or humiliate myself in some way... But I've come to understand that you can't wait for confidence to show up."

Millman reflects on the importance of community and support systems in overcoming personal fears and challenges. By seeking assistance and embracing vulnerability, she illustrates how collective wisdom and encouragement can foster growth and resilience. This perspective reinforces the idea that seeking help is a strength rather than a weakness, essential for personal and communal advancement.

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Cultivating Resilience Through Nature and Creativity

[26:30] Debbie Millman:
"I have one notch, maybe one atom more hope than shame. And that keeps me going."

Drawing parallels between nature's resilience and human perseverance, Millman emphasizes the cyclical and regenerative aspects of the natural world as sources of inspiration. Her experiences in gardening teach her about hope, renewal, and the relentless pursuit of growth despite setbacks. This philosophy extends to her creative endeavors, where continuous learning and adaptation are paramount.

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Impact of the COVID-19 Pandemic on Personal Life and Gardening

[28:10] Debbie Millman:
"One thing that I experienced... was the notion that I didn't always have to be busy and productive all the time."

The pandemic provided Millman with an opportunity to focus on gardening, leading to significant personal growth and the creation of a thriving vegetable garden. This period of introspection allowed her to value stillness and intentionality over perpetual productivity. However, she acknowledges the challenge of maintaining this peace in a post-pandemic world, highlighting the enduring impact of this transformative time.

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The Intricacies of Time and Its Influence on Life Choices

[31:22] Debbie Millman:
"Time is so important to me because it is, for me, one of the great mysteries."

Time emerges as a central theme in Millman's narrative, symbolizing both the finite nature of life and the expansive possibilities of the universe. She contemplates the relativity of time, inspired by concepts like time dilation, and reflects on how her perception of time has deepened with age. This introspection drives her to prioritize meaningful pursuits and personal fulfillment, emphasizing the importance of intentional living.

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Lessons from Design Matters: Continuous Learning and Seeking Greatness

[40:06] Debbie Millman:
"No matter who they are... Everyone still is searching for more and for better."

Drawing from her extensive experience hosting Design Matters, Millman shares insights on the relentless pursuit of excellence among creative individuals. She notes that even those who have achieved significant recognition remain committed to growth and innovation. This ethos of continuous improvement influences her approach to gardening and personal projects, fostering a mindset of perpetual learning and adaptation.

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Final Reflections and Takeaways

[43:26] Debbie Millman:
"It's just an attempt, my sort of somewhat feeble but earnest attempt, to make something from nothing."

In concluding the conversation, Millman articulates the essence of her book as a metaphor for creation and hope. Whether through gardening, art, or other creative endeavors, the act of bringing something new into existence serves as a testament to human resilience and ingenuity. She encourages readers to embrace their creative journeys with optimism and determination, fostering a collective effort to effect positive change in the world.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Debbie Millman on Gardening and Wonder:
  [06:47] "It was then and there I began to associate gardening with wonder."

• On Failure and Learning:
  [23:13] "It's only a failure, really, if you give up forever. Other than that, it's just a process."

• On Time and Life Choices:
  [31:22] "Time is so important to me because it is, for me, one of the great mysteries."

• **On Continuous Learning from Design Matters:
  [40:06] "No matter who they are... Everyone still is searching for more and for better."

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Conclusion

Debbie Millman's Love Letter to a Garden serves as a profound exploration of personal growth, resilience, and the transformative power of nurturing life. Through her heartfelt narrative and reflections, Millman invites readers to find beauty and purpose in the act of creation, whether in a garden or in other facets of life. This conversation encapsulates the enduring human spirit to cultivate, learn, and aspire, offering both inspiration and practical insights for anyone embarking on their own journey of growth and discovery.

Transcript

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[Elise Hu]

We bring you new ideas and conversations.

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To spark your curiosity every day. I'm your host Elise Hu. Today we're bringing you a new installment of our Book Club series where we check out new books from TED speakers that'll spark your curiosity all year long. This coming Tuesday is Earth Day and we're talking about the many ways to love and care for our planet with ted's very own Debbie Millman, writer, educator, artist, designer and host of of the beloved TED podcast Design Matters. Why Debbie? You might ask. Well, she just released a beautiful illustrated book called Love Letter to a Garden with original recipes from her wife, author and fellow TED speaker Roxane Gay. The book and our conversation is about Debbie's journey toward becoming a gardener and everything else that goes into the loving act of tending to the soil. You don't have to be a gardener to appreciate Debbie's story. In fact, she doesn't think of this as a book for gardeners at all. Rather, a love letter to our ability to create something beautiful from nothing and the strength and resiliency that come from engaging with the things we love most, however big or small. Now, onto our conversation. Hello, Debbie.

[Elise Hu]

It's so great to see you and have you back on the show.

[Debbie Millman]

Oh, thank you. It's great to be here.

[Elise Hu]

We're together today for a very exciting reason, which is that you have a beautiful and vibrant new book called Love Letter a Garden. So can I start by just asking you, why did you choose to focus on a love letter to your garden? And what does your garden mean to you?

[Debbie Millman]

Well, I decided to focus on my garden and gardening in general because I was invited to by the publisher Timbra Press, which is the gardening imprint of Hachette. I would not in any way have ever considered gardening doing a book at all on gardening because I'm still working on being a good gardener. Hachette had seen some other work that I had done, actually one piece that I had created for the TED conference that was completely online during COVID This wonderful editor, McKenna Goodman, saw my work and asked me if I'd be interested in doing this book in a similar method, which is what I call visual storytelling, which is combining photos, illustrations, watercolors, paintings, collage with words to tell a story. And I laughed when I got her email because there's no way that I could ever be a gardening guru. I am just not that good and border really on being okay and suggested that perhaps the direction could be a quest to become a gardener. And she was intrigued, and I was able to persuade her of that direction. And off we went.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, I'd love to talk a little bit about that quest idea. Why did you come to think of this book as a quest story rather than a traditional success story?

[Debbie Millman]

Well, success is still elusive, although I have moments of success, for sure. But I've always been intrigued by gardening. I think there's something really magical about the idea that a seed contains an entire species of plant, that there is this tiny little seed that could and has become a tree or a plant or a flower. And I find that endlessly fascinating. And when I was a little girl, I would make things with rose petals. I tried to plant my own apple tree using seeds with my grandmother that we planted together in my Staten island backyard. I wonder now if it is a tree, but since I have no way of knowing and doubt very much, I just like to fantasize that somewhere in a backyard in Staten island is a giant apple tree that I planted in the 60s and then over the decades, still dabbled. I often had apartments with tiny little decks or backyards and always tried to make something beautiful with very, very little success.

[Elise Hu]

Debbie, you mentioned that story about your grandmother who suggested that you could plant an apple seed and maybe it would grow into a tree, and we don't know if one is there now. I actually would love for you to read that passage.

[Debbie Millman]

We went out to our backyard and dug a hole to plant the apple seeds. As I was digging, I unearthed a dollar bill. I was in awe. How had it gotten there? Did someone plant it? I had so many questions. It was then and there I began to associate gardening with wonder.

[Elise Hu]

That childlike awe of the world. And wonder is something that we tend to lose as we grow older. And it's something we talk about at TED a lot.

[Debbie Millman]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

How have you grappled with losing wonder? And after returning to gardening, did that help you in finding wonder again?

[Debbie Millman]

It's such an interesting and good question, Elise. I have a lot of young people in my life, nieces and nephews and friends with children. I don't have any children of my own. So I spend a lot of time watching my friends and family's kids grow up. And I see how kids are all born with this sense of wonder and joy and curiosity and courage in the way they learn how to walk and talk, how they play, how they create worlds within their worlds. And I see just in general, not specifically with them, but I just see in general, how by the time a kid gets into third or fourth grade, that really changes. And I worry that that is because of the way we're socialized, the way that we begin to get graded and have to live up to expectations that are sort of out of our purview, how we end up having to comp who runs faster, who's smarter in math and so forth. And I think that if there's any way to keep that wonder ignited through a person's life, that it is such a worthy effort. My own sense of wonder, in many ways, was extinguished when I was a little girl, shortly after that experience planting seeds because my parents got divorced. It was a very acrimonious divorce. I didn't see my father for years and years. My mother remarried and married somebody who was really brutal to all the kids in the family, but particularly me, because I was the oldest. And it's taken me a long time to sort of recapture that sense of awe about the universe. And I think that's why I'm so Fascinated by science, because that is so, or seem so, both empirical and magical. And while there are laws of physics that we have uncovered and discovered, there is also this unknown, this magic that we are constantly contending with. Or maybe it's. Scientists would probably prefer to call it mystery, but I think it's magic. And that's something that I think about all the time.

[Elise Hu]

You were born and raised across New York City.

[Debbie Millman]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

And being a New Yorker is a huge part of your identity now, always has been. I love the quote from the late Oliver Sacks, who is an author and scientist, neurologist, who wrote that New York is a city sometimes made bearable only by gardens.

[Debbie Millman]

Yes, that's a great quote.

[Elise Hu]

Well, when people think of cities, I'm not sure that gardens are the first thing that pop into their minds. And so for you, and clearly for Saks, gardens have become a huge part of how you view New York City and your love for it. So I'd love for you to just reflect on gardens in a more urban environment.

[Debbie Millman]

I think gardens in an urban environment are a respite from the pace, the freneticness, the ferocity of the city. Gardens, by just the nature of being still, encourage us to ponder, encourage us to be still alongside. And there's something wonderfully meditative about being surrounded by nature, as opposed to honking cabs and speeding bicyclists.

[Elise Hu]

All the things.

[Debbie Millman]

That we contend with as urban dwellers. And gardens, I think just by the nature of being gardens are very peaceful, very beautiful to look at and be in. And they encourage us to observe and witness and experience in a very, I think, profound way. And I think it's so necessary for people in cities to have these places. I think that in many ways that's why the High Line is so popular, because it is so beautiful in this very unusual place. There's something I learned recently called the High Line Effect, which is how cities all over the world have been creating these spaces for people to go and appreciate and experience and observe and witness nature. Because the High Line has been so popular, and I think that's so wonderful that this beautiful, original park of sorts could inspire other architects and artists and gardeners to make these spaces for people all over the world.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, yeah, it happened when I was living in Seoul. They made essentially a High Line, or they were inspired by the High Line, and they took an old highway and turned that into a walkway and a garden and an area for respite for the people of Seoul. So, yes, the effect is happening and taking place. And I'm curious. We have Earth Day coming up. More and more people are moving into cities, but resources are scarce. Space is hard to come by. How do we think about reconnecting with nature in the face of our growing climate crisis? And just the affordability problem of having the land and the space to garden?

[Debbie Millman]

Well, for anybody that might be a climate crisis denier, I've seen firsthand, having gone on an expedition to Antarctica, where you can see the planet's most exquisite icebergs. And you can also see chunks of ice that have crumbled off of these icebergs. You can see the ocean peppered with all of these small boulders of ice and snow. And that is evidence of these icebergs melting. And being in a place like Antarctica, where it is so pristine, where it is so clean, where there are real serious rules about bringing any kind of bacteria onto the land, is suffering from climate change, then you can only assume that every other place on the planet is also being affected. And I mean, not only is it concerning for humans, we are really just a species on this planet. We owe it to our home to take care of it and to be respectful of it and to be in awe of it and to have wonder with it and about it. And the idea that we might be doing anything to harm this planet is just unthinkable. I've been very, very, very lucky in that I have gone on many different nat geo expeditions around the world and I've seen how people live. The range of flora, the range of environments is magical. It's wondrous. And I think that we as a species as likely in the top two or three smartest species on the planet. We must hold ourselves accountable to keep it as pristine as we possibly can, given what's ahead of us and the damage we've already done.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

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[Elise Hu]

Let's turn to topics the two of us talk about fairly often, which is fear and failure and loss and then resilience afterwards. You brought it up a little bit at the start of the conversation and these are themes that you explore in your work. At one point in the book you wrote something like the boxwoods perished as well. I was flomixed. I was told that nature finds a way. I felt I had completely lost mine. Talk to us a little bit more about this. What has failure in the garden taught you?

[Debbie Millman]

Well, failure in the garden means the death of these plants that were living. And without sounding too dramatic, I just felt like a murderer. I just had no ability to keep things alive and could not understand why and had to really figure it out and had to learn. You know, you reach a point where anything you're trying to do on your own that doesn't seem to work. You either have to pivot or you have to figure out what you're doing wrong. And at that point I wasn't willing to pivot because I enjoyed it so much. I really loved it. And this is pre Los Angeles. This is in the garden that I have in New York in my home. And I tried and tried and tried. I planted hardy things like rhododendrons and azaleas and tried peonies and sunflowers in a sunny spot of my garden. And nothing stuck. I mean, I'd have it really nice for a couple of weeks and then it would wilt. And it wasn't because of a lack of water or too much water. And so I had to learn. I had a neighbor who was a very, very, very dear friend of mine who had lived on my block and she had A little postage size stamp concrete deck outside her apartment in the backyard. She did have quite a lot of luck with container plants and the little bit of soil that she had and took me under her wing a bit and taught me quite a lot about her urban gardening efforts. And then when I was in LA and I was still having mixed results at best, especially with corn, you know, which, which no beginning gardener should try.

[Elise Hu]

Should be trying, I have to tell.

[Debbie Millman]

You, just so far above my pay grade. In any case, my cousin Eileen, who's an avid gardener, she really helped me and she's the person who I was sending the photos to on the regular to say, how did this happen? What did I do wrong?

[Elise Hu]

Right. And yet you have written or you've mentioned to me that you were initially afraid to ask for help.

[Debbie Millman]

Oh, yeah.

[Elise Hu]

And so I'm curious why that was. You know, why did you fear asking for help? And then how did you end up finding the courage to keep trying and to reach out for some more resources?

[Debbie Millman]

I've gotten to a point in my life where I'm old enough to know what I'm good at or what I consider to be good at.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Debbie Millman]

And I like doing those things because they make me feel like I'm doing something well and worthy. And there's a lot of. There's a good feedback loop there. But I've also gotten much more tentative about doing things that I don't know how to do.

[SimpliSafe Representative]

Yeah.

[Debbie Millman]

Mostly because I'm afraid I'm going to look foolish or humiliate myself in some way or I'm embarrassed that I don't know something that I should. And you know, one thing I've learned being a teacher for as long as I've been, that the students that are afraid to ask questions, those questions are usually questions that everyone else also has. And though they might feel silly about raising their hand and asking the question because they think, was that gone over already? Did I miss it? Why don't I understand this? Is there something wrong with me? Am I not smart enough? Despite seeing and witnessing that all the time, I was still afraid to look foolish or ask for help. And I look back on that now and think, what a lost opportunity to just keep learning. And not just in terms of gardening, but just in any aspect of my life. And actually learning from others and watching other people learn from others now has given me a lot of motivation to try new things, which, you know, in my 60s is something I never thought would have happened. I'm not a person that likes change. I'M not a person that likes failure. I'm not a person who likes humiliation. But I have come to understand that you can't wait for confidence to show up to give you a sense of urgency or ability or permission to do something. Confidence only comes after the successful repetition of any endeavor, and the success only comes after learning. And so there's this journey that you can take to confidence, but you can't start with confidence. You know, speaking about wonder and young kids.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Debbie Millman]

You have to learn how to walk. You have to learn how to talk. You have to learn how to go potty. There's so many things that we have to learn. Why would we think as we got older that things would just happen with osmosis? Just by the sheer virtue of being exposed to something or the sheer virtue of just wanting to be good at something, we all just don't change. Right.

[Elise Hu]

We have to go through that learning space between knowing and not knowing. And that learning space is. Is a roller coaster and dotted with failure. Yes. I think we forget that or get scared of it.

[Debbie Millman]

And it's only a failure, really, if you give up forever. Other than that, it's just a process.

[SimpliSafe Representative]

Right. You're just not good at it yet.

[Elise Hu]

Yet.

[Debbie Millman]

Right.

[Elise Hu]

I'll keep telling myself that.

[Debbie Millman]

And there's still hope. There's still hope. You know, that's the part. There's still hope.

[Elise Hu]

Right? Right. All right, Debbie, I've got another passage for you to read to us. There's a beautiful story in your book that you tell about a bush of white peonies that lived among weeds. Could you open up the book and read that passage for us?

[Debbie Millman]

There was an elegant bush of rather immodest white peonies that lived alongside a tangle of weeds in a rundown building on. On my block. I admired it nearly every day for years and often wondered how it got there, who planted it? Did itself sow? One evening while walking home from work, I realized the peony bush was gone. There wasn't a hole where the plant had been. There wasn't any splattering of dirt or debris. Its sudden disappearance was as mysterious as its existence. I was heartbroken. A few days later, I ambled by the building where my beloved plant once thrived and stopped short. There was a small bouquet of white peonies in the same exact spot. I approached it slowly, gently, reached out to touch the flowering buds and realized they weren't real. Someone else, more mourning their absence, had placed a plastic plant exactly where the real peonies had lived, real or Not. My heart was a little less broken that day. I'm always so impressed by the lengths New Yorkers go to make their lives beautiful.

[Elise Hu]

That's lovely. That's lovely. This actually connects to posthumous compilation album of Tupac Shakur. I don't know if you know this.

[Debbie Millman]

Really? Yes, That's. That's. That is. I'm impressed.

[SimpliSafe Representative]

Yes.

[Debbie Millman]

That range, that connection, that power of association.

[Elise Hu]

We do our research here at TED Talks Daily. You know, he wrote poetry, too, and there is a piece called the Rose that Grew From Concrete. I know you're a big hip hop fan, so.

[Debbie Millman]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

Do you want me to share it with you really quick?

[Debbie Millman]

Please. I would love to hear it.

[Elise Hu]

Okay. Tupac wrote, did you hear? About the rose that grew from a crack in the concrete Proving nature's law is wrong it learned to walk without having feet Funny, it seems but by keeping its dreams it learned to breathe fresh air Love lived the rose that grew from concrete when no one else.

[Debbie Millman]

Ever cared RIP Tupac.

[SimpliSafe Representative]

I know.

[Debbie Millman]

Rip. Oh, I hope there's a big garden around you somewhere out there.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, same, same. I obviously pick up on the themes of tenderness, but also resilience and perseverance from these two pieces of writing. We've touched on it already today, but after hearing this passage and the poem, I'm curious what the natural world taught you about resilience.

[Debbie Millman]

I think that the idea that almost everything in nature is recycled, that the seasons bring forth both new life and hibernation, is something that I'm mystified by, endlessly fascinated by, and again using that word, in awe of. I've spent probably most of my life trying to overcome obstacles, some of which were put in my way for me, and some of which I put in my own way. But there's always been this sense of hope that I've had about what I could be or what I could make or contribute. And I thought about this a lot over the years, and I just came up with the notion that in my life, I have one notch, maybe one atom more hope than shame. And that keeps me going.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, that's lovely, Debbie. All right, I want to pivot a bit and turn to the COVID 19 pandemic. This book was arguably born out of the uncertainty we felt during the pandemic. And I'd love to know your reflections now that we're five years on, but still coping with the after effects. What did you learn from writing this book and over the course of the pandemic that have helped you understand where we're at now, which feels like a very tumultuous and chaotic time.

[Debbie Millman]

Well, one thing that I experienced but have had great difficulty maintaining was the notion that I didn't always have to be busy and productive all the time.

[Elise Hu]

Yes. Yes. We got to come off of the hamster wheel of booking meetings in your calendars. Yes.

[Debbie Millman]

Oh, my God. I loved that. I loved not feeling obligated. I loved not feeling like I had to say yes to everything because I wasn't being asked to do much. And so I realized, probably for the first time in my life that I felt okay not being busy, not being obligated, and swore to myself and to my now wife, who also swore back to me that we were going to maintain some semblance of this moving forward, that we were going to respect the stillness and the ability to be more introspective and circumspect about what we said yes to. And I would say that that's gone out the window. Like, that's long gone. And we both look back on that experience feeling very lucky that we came out of it without very much illness. No one in our family suffered greatly from COVID We lived together for the first time in our relationship during COVID So many people were like, so how's it going? Thinking that because it was the first time that we had suddenly, you know, begun to hate each other. It was actually the opposite. We ended up eloping when, in fact, we'd planned this very big, beautiful wedding that we didn't get to have because of COVID No regrets there at all. And so one of the things that I experienced was this profound feeling of peace. I hoped that I would learn how to maintain that, and I haven't. But it is something I still aspire to, trying to reignite at some point in the future. Although it's, you know, planning for the future is such a crapshoot because we don't really know. And any control we think we have is just some false pretense we create for ourselves to feel like we have some service, when in fact, we don't. I mean, I think Covid showed us.

[Elise Hu]

That there was also that aspect of the way being still for so long played with time and really emphasized that elasticity of time. And you write about this theme and return to it in your work a lot. You even started your popular 2019 TED talk with the Big Bang and the creation of everything. Now, as you mentioned at the start of the conversation, you talk about the seed as kind of a metaphor for the Big Bang and where everything begins. Why is time something that's so important to you and a real curiosity and an anchor point for your work?

[Debbie Millman]

I think that time is so important to me because it is, for me, one of the great mysteries. I heard something yesterday about how if we traveled to Andromeda at the speed of light and came back, we'd have traveled for ourselves, you know, maybe a couple of days, but it would be millions of years on earth because of time dilation. And the idea that while time feels so fixed for us, is so varied all over the universe is just a mind blowing concept to me.

[Elise Hu]

Yes.

[Debbie Millman]

But, you know, for me, I think about time also very selfishly. Like, how much more time do I have? What kinds of decisions do I need to make about the time that I have? I never, ever thought about time as I was a youngster and even well into my 40s. It wasn't until I hit my 50s and now my 60s that I think, how much more time do I have? How could I be more choiceful with the time that I have? How could I make the things that I've always said I wanted to make but haven't? How could I learn the things that I've always wanted to learn but was afraid to? So all of these choices become so much more potent as I get older and think maybe if I'm lucky, I still have one third more of my life to go.

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[Elise Hu]

You mentioned Roxanne, so let's turn to talk a little bit about your wife Roxanne, who has a very sweet role to play in the book. Roxanne loves to cook and you share your connection through your garden and the food that you grow. So can you talk just a little bit about the LA garden and what it's grown into? Pun intended.

[Debbie Millman]

When Covid happened, I ended up moving to Los Angeles. And because I had a lot of time on my hands, I started working really diligently in our backyard, which was just sort of your more typical suburban backyard with grass and some boxwoods and things like that, and started to turn it into a vegetable garden and planted some lemon trees and little trees that were already sort of in creation as opposed to from a seed. And slowly but surely did have some success. My biggest success being my first ever salad comprised of everything that I had actually grown myself.

[Elise Hu]

And listeners, you get to see the parts of Debbie's salad from her garden in the book. So it looks delicious.

[Debbie Millman]

Roxane is quite an imaginative cook. She's really talented and she makes up a lot of her own recipes. She's always doing inventive things in the kitchen. She makes things that she doesn't like just because I like them. And part of what was so wonderful about COVID time for us was the harvest of this plentiful garden that I had started and nourished. So we had a lot of fun. I am not a cook. The only two things I can cook involve chickens. And we do not have chickens and did not in any way raise chickens. So everything was very vegetable based or fruit based. We were making all sorts of things with tomatoes. I just had an overload of all sorts of tomatoes. And she created this extraordinary recipe for tomato galette, which is in the book. We had a lot of strawberries and so she we created a recipe for a strawberry tall cake as opposed to a strawberry short cake so there'd be more cake. There was a good ratio of cake to strawberry, which was very important to me.

[Elise Hu]

So great. That first salad that you ate with the ingredients that you grew. You describe the excitement that you felt when you ate it for the first time in the book. Can you describe that memory and that feeling for us? And just what is it like to eat the things that you've grown when.

[Debbie Millman]

We'Re creating art or podcasts or anything that is creative. You know, you wonder, is it good? Is it not good? You need feedback. You need somebody to sort of tell you. It's very hard to just say to oneself, at least I've experienced this. Maybe other people experience it all the time, but I'm always needing reassurance and feedback and coaching. But with a salad like, it either tastes good or it doesn't. The lettuce is either too bitter or it's not. The seeds of the cucumber are either crisp or they're squishy. I mean, there's so many things that just tell you you don't need. It's sort of like math. One plus one equals two. It's empirical. Yeah, exactly. You don't need show notes, exact. You don't need somebody to give you a sense of what you could do better.

[Elise Hu]

Right.

[Debbie Millman]

Although, of course, there is always doing better. But a really delicious tomato is a really delicious tomato. And so that was what it was like. It was magic and wonder that we had grown and created and constructed this salad that was absolutely delicious. It was, dare I say it, divine. And I felt a lot of pride.

[Elise Hu]

I bet.

[Debbie Millman]

I'll bet my heart was sort of bursting. You know, I talk a lot about heartbreak in the book, but my heart was bursting at that moment with pride and joy and deliciousness.

[Elise Hu]

Things just taste better after you've grown them, too.

[Debbie Millman]

Oh, my goodness.

[SimpliSafe Representative]

You know. Cause, like, you've been with the fruit.

[Elise Hu]

Or the vegetable or the herb for the journey. Yes, there's a reward there. Debbie, we haven't talked about your podcast and how long you've been a podcaster. And for your podcast, Design Matters, you have now interviewed literally hundreds and if not thousands of people from all walks of life. And you've helped many, many more people, myself included, to understand why design matters, how it's connected to the way we live and the way we are connected to one another. So I'm curious if there are things that you have learned from your many conversations and from your own design practice and your career that you take with you into your pursuits today, whether it's gardening or anything else that you're trying to learn and get better at.

[Debbie Millman]

Yes, emphatically, yes. When you're talking to some of the world's most creative people, it's inevitable you're going to learn a lot. One common denominator that I always keep in mind now in my own search for something meaningful to make and do is the notion that no matter who they are, Oscar winners, Emmy winners, eGots, PE Gotts Peabody winners, Webby winners, New York Times best selling authors.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Debbie Millman]

Famous artists that show in galleries all over the world. Famous designers at the top of their game, performers, musicians, gardeners. Everyone still is searching for more and for better. I don't know that there's anyone that I've ever interviewed that's really, really great. That is resting on their laurels, right?

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Debbie Millman]

Especially when they've achieved something great. They don't want that greatness to be behind them. They want to keep achieving greatness, keep doing more, keep making more, keep making a difference. And that is really comforting.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, that's a great way to end. But before we wrap up, I'd love to take one more moment to reflect on where we are now and what you're hoping people will take from your latest book. You mentioned what keeps you going and it made us think of a quote from your TED 2020 video.

[Roxane Gay]

The view from the sky is so abstract. It reveals our connections, our continuity and our scale. Nevertheless, it's hard to see the big picture right now.

[Debbie Millman]

It's such a difficult time in the.

[Roxane Gay]

World as we pause and dismantle and rebuild our culture. I think back to my travels. I've seen how different we are, how diverse and distinct. But I've also seen, seen our commonalities, how much worship means in Tibet, in Pakistan, in Italy, in China, in Cambodia and in Peru. How much peace means to our future, how much we regret the mistakes of our past. And now insisting on what matters. No matter what, there is still so much beauty in the world, so much love. I'm hopeful for the next generation, for every creature large and small, and for the planet we call home.

[Elise Hu]

DEBBIE there's so much going on in the world right now. It doesn't feel peaceful. And the feeling of community can be really hard to hold onto at times. So for those who read this book and who are listening to this conversation, what are some things you hope people will be able to take away from spending time with your book and, you know, with us, even if they're not.

[Debbie Millman]

A gardener in many ways, this is not a book for gardeners because there's no advice, there's no how tos, there's no befores and afters. It's just an attempt, my sort of somewhat feeble but earnest attempt, to make something from nothing.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Debbie Millman]

And I think that is a metaphor for all of us. Anybody that is creating something, a drawing, a podcast, a meal, is making something that wasn't there before.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Debbie Millman]

And that is a worthy effort. It's usually a valiant effort. And I think the more we try to remake what's happening right now with a sense of hope about what we could do as opposed to a sense of despair about what is not in our control, the more chances we have of being able to make a difference. I mean, that's really what we need to make right now, is a difference.

[Elise Hu]

The book is Love Letter to a Garden. The author is Design Matters podcast host Debbie Millman. It's been so rewarding and lovely to be in conversation and in friendship with you. Debbie Millman. Thank you so much.

[Debbie Millman]

Thank you, Elise. Thank you for your heart and generosity and wit.

[Elise Hu]

I love it every time. I love our collaborations.

[Debbie Millman]

Me too.

[SimpliSafe Representative]

That was Debbie Millman in conversation with me, Elise Hu, for the TED Talks Daily Book Club. And that's it for today. TED Talks Daily is part of the TED Audio Collective. This episode was produced by Lucy Little and edited by Alejandra Salazar. The TED Talks Daily team includes Martha Estefanos, Oliver Friedman, Brian Greene and Tanzika Sangmarnivong. Additional support from Emma Tobner and Daniela Balarezzo. I'm Elise Hu. I'll be back tomorrow with a fresh idea for your feed. Thanks for listening.

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