Simon Sinek (4:55)

Thanks for having me.

Elise Hu (4:56)

Well, you are a longtime friend of ted and we are now kind of looking back at Start with why. It's the 15th anniversary. Given the extraordinary success of not only your TED Talks, but just your work generally, the idea of starting with why has clearly stood the test of time. So what was it like for you to update this book for this edition?

Simon Sinek (5:20)

When I first articulated the concept of why in the Golden Circle, it was never supposed to be a commercial exercise. It was I treated it like a scientific experiment, which is I had this little theory that seemed to have and the reason I called it the Golden Circle is inspired by the golden ratio. This one concept that seems to have sort of, you know, unlimited applications, from architecture to understanding snowflakes, you know, understanding the Mona Lisa, like this one golden ratio. And so that's what inspired me. That's like I had this little concept that seemed to have unbelievable ability to help you, you know, better write a speech or better marketing or direct your career and decision making.

Elise Hu (6:04)

Yeah.

Simon Sinek (6:05)

And so I chose to do the scientific method, which is, I had a theory. I'm going to keep testing it until it fails. That was really the idea. And so I would call people, I'd call different industries, and I'd say, I have this thing. Do you want to try it? And say, well, you have ever. Have you ever done it in manufacturing before? And I go, no, no, but I'd love to try.

Elise Hu (6:24)

Yeah.

Simon Sinek (6:25)

Well, how do you know it's going to work in politics? I don't, but let's give it a try. And I was very honest. And it just kept working.

Elise Hu (6:33)

Yeah.

Simon Sinek (6:33)

And because I wasn't trying to sell anything, it actually helped the idea spread. But long story short, we're. Long story less excruciatingly long. It kept working. It just kept working. And there's a point at which I was like, all right, this is a real thing.

Elise Hu (6:49)

Has the idea evolved over the past 15 years, though?

Simon Sinek (6:53)

No.

Elise Hu (6:53)

Is it pretty tried and true?

Simon Sinek (6:55)

It's based on the biology of human decision making. So until the biology of our brains changes, it's not going anywhere. The thing that has evolved is finding even more uses and applications, obviously, because that's just an ongoing learning journey. And the thing that I'm super proud of, if there's any evolution, I think the evolution has happened outside of the idea. The evolution has happened in the marketplace. Right. So when I first started, the concept of talking about purpose at work was like, you could not say the word purpose and work in the same sentence. You would literally. You'd be laughed out. You couldn't be taken seriously in a boardroom. And that was one of the reasons I didn't use the word purpose, by the way. The reason I called it the why is because I got tired of having these debates of what comes first, mission or vision? And like, literally, people debate. Vision comes first, Mission comes first. No brand comes first. No purpose comes first. And I got tired of having the debates. It was a semantic debate.

Elise Hu (7:50)

Right.

Simon Sinek (7:50)

So I went to the people who believed vision comes first. I said, what's vision? They said, it's why we get out of bed in the morning. I went to the people who believe mission comes first. I said, what's mission? They said, it's why we do what we do. And they all gave me the same definitions for all their different things. I said, great, we'll call it the why. Now we can all agree. And because I avoided poorly defined words, and because I avoided words with baggage like purpose, what ended up happening is the people who needed to listen listened. And what I'm super proud of is that concept took hold. Like, I can open up a newspaper and it'll say, this company clearly doesn't know their why. They don't know my work, they don't know me. And yet it's become part of the vernacular, which is kind of amazing. And as important, you can talk about purpose at work now. It's a thing like serious businesses, banks talk about purpose at work. And I'm super proud of that. That, to me, is the more important evolution, not me or my work. I was a proselytizer. I was spreading a gospel of a new way of seeing the world and seeing business. I consider myself a messenger. And the fact that the message has taken hold is the greatest thing in the world.

Elise Hu (8:57)

One example you bring up a lot, or you had brought up a lot was Apple of a company that could lead with why and often did lead with why. I'm curious what person or organization, politician, even, is inspiring you today? What do you think leading with y looks like in our modern business era or our modern society? Is it still the Apple model for you, or has anything changed?

Simon Sinek (9:26)

Yeah, no. I mean, the fundamentals are the same. The sad thing for me is we're living in pretty leaderless times. You know, there used to be many inspiring leaders in the world. You know, whether you agree or disagree with their, politics is secondary. But nobody can argue that. You know, Ronald Reagan, John F. Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Margaret Thatcher, Voxak, Havel. These folks were powerful and inspiring voices, and many of their lives overlapped like Valencia. Like all of these movement leaders, no one can argue that they definitely viewed themselves as being a part of something bigger than themselves. And whether I look in politics or business, that's precious few these days, to be honest with you. The loss of the Pope, you know, Pope Francis was pretty remarkable, whether you're Catholic or not. A Catholic, pretty inspiring guy who definitely saw himself not as somebody trying to accumulate power. He saw himself as a servant leader. He didn't need the pump and the circumstance. And if you go back to sort of Jim Collins work, sort of the old classic level five leader stuff, humility ranks real High in what it takes to be one of these great, inspiring leaders. And I don't fault the people because clearly, you know, people are people. Whatever generation we're in, I think it's the times we live in and the incentive structures around us. But we've over indexed on rugged individualism.

Elise Hu (10:52)

Yeah.

Simon Sinek (10:52)

We've over indexed on sort of heroizing CEOs. Like, they did it. Like. No, they didn't. There's a whole team. You know, we've over indexed on short termism. We've over indexed on. On shareholder supremacy. None of those things are bad per se. But when the weight is tilted too far, it impacts behavior because, you know, show me how someone's paid and I'll show you how they behave. Shareholder supremacy. You get a behavior that looks like a lot of the leaders that we have today.

Elise Hu (11:24)

What needs to be done to turn things around? Are there places where you are seeing pushback or organizations that are trying to turn things around?

Simon Sinek (11:32)

These things go in cycles. We have been in a bad Jack Welch, Milton Friedman cycle that started in the 80s, really got going in the 90s and the 2000s. Mass layoffs, for example, didn't exist prior to the 1980s. It wasn't a thing.

Elise Hu (11:46)

Yeah.

Simon Sinek (11:47)

You know, so we use layoffs to balance the books, which is just crazy. Right. Like, we missed our arbitrary projections. We're profitable, just not as profitable as we wanted. So you get to lose your job, which is just madness. And so for every action, there's an equal and opposite reaction. So what you're seeing is a young generation that's sort of scratching their heads. And I love to listen to CEOs complain about, you know, millennials and Gen.

Elise Hu (12:09)

Z. Gen Z. Yeah.

Simon Sinek (12:11)

And you listen to the language. They're entitled. You listen to the language of their disloyal. They show no loyalty to the company. Right. You listen to all of these things. Okay, so let's take a step back and let's look at the world that they've grown up in the 80s and 90s and 2000s. Right. So they watch their parents or their friends. Parents get laid off through no fault of their own. It's not a meritocracy. Okay, got it. The concept of the gold watch, literally, there's an entire generation that, when I talk about the gold watch, literally doesn't know what I'm talking about.

Elise Hu (12:40)

Step back and explain it.

Simon Sinek (12:41)

I'll explain it. There was a concept which is you would get a job for a good company, they would look after you, and you would work your entire Career at one, maybe two companies, at the end of your career, you would retire and they would give you a gold watch to thank you for your decades of service.

Elise Hu (12:59)

Yeah.

Simon Sinek (13:00)

And this was a thing. Yeah, everybody got their gold watch at the end of their career from the company that they worked for, doesn't exist anymore. And so you have this young generation who's scratching their head saying the company's demanding loyalty from me, but if they miss their arbitrary projections, I get sacked, I watch my parents get sacked. They offer no loyalty to me. Why should I give them loyalty? That makes sense.

Elise Hu (13:22)

That makes sense.

Simon Sinek (13:23)

My generation, we would work really hard, go above and beyond, do the extra projects, stay out, you know, work late. Then we would go to our boss and say, hey, I've really been going the extra mile, can I have a raise or a promotion? This generation, those in executive levels will complain. They come and ask for raises and promotions without having done the work. Well, if I were young generation going that there's no stability and no loyalty.

Elise Hu (13:50)

Right.

Simon Sinek (13:50)

Damn you, I'm going to cash in early and get that promotion and that raise. And that's what they say, like give me the commotion, the raise, then you're going to see what I'm going to do. Right. Which if you think about the circumstances in the environment in which they were raised, makes perfect sense. Like got to protect numero uno because the company's protecting numero uno. The company stopped caring about me, so I'm going to stop caring about the company. And so you're starting to see what is a more selfishly driven work mentality which would be the correct reaction to the environment that work has set. And so to answer your question, how do you solve it? I can't ask the employees to change. That's not fair. It's the companies that set the rules. And so if you want to change the way employees behave, the companies have to change the rules. And you are starting to see pressure from young people saying, I don't like the old system. I don't necessarily know what the new system has to be, but I don't like the old system. It just comes across as anti corporate or stuff like that, Right?

Elise Hu (14:49)

Sure.

Simon Sinek (14:50)

But there are some young and some forward thinking companies that are changing the rules. They care. Listen, that ooey gooey mushy, mushy word. They care about their people. They're coming up with incentive structures that promote growth, not just financial performance. And the result is the people who work in those companies are fiercely loyal. So Trek the bicycle company, remarkable Company pushing the boundaries, changing the incentive structures. The average tenure there is 30 years.

Elise Hu (15:28)

Wow.

Simon Sinek (15:29)

The average tenure is 30 years.

Elise Hu (15:33)

Wow.

Simon Sinek (15:34)

Right. And that's because it's a company that cares. Barry Wehmiller A company I've written about. Bob Chapman. It's a manufacturing company. But if you ask Bob, what does your company do, he talks about, we're here to grow people so they can achieve their greatest potential. You say, well, Bob, how do you measure success? We measure success by how we touch the lives of people. And he's a guy who, in 2008, when the economy hit the skids and his pipeline dried up, they didn't lay off anybody, but they did do furloughs. And what they said the public announcement was better we should all suffer a little than any of us should have to suffer a lot. And it's that kind of shared hardship. We're not saying that companies can't go through hard times and that we have to somehow struggle. We're not asking for the companies to give us huge bonuses when they're losing money. But if we all share in the burden, that means we can also share in the good fortune and the wealth. And if we take care of each other and look to each other's growth, this is a good thing. Venture capital screws things up because venture capitalists put pressure on all these CEOs to do things. They promote short termism in a horrible way.

Elise Hu (16:42)

Right. And that's where the incentives get all out of form.

Simon Sinek (16:44)

And that's where the incentives get all screwed up. And there's a great irony now, which is it used to be that just the public markets, if you were a public company would be the pressure and private was like, oh my God, you could do whatever you wanted. And now because of the amount of VC and public private equity, the irony is, is whether you're public or private, the pressures are the same to be short termism. So there's not as much protection as being private as there used to be. There's some, obviously, but it's not the same if you're venture backed, you focus.

Elise Hu (17:08)

A lot on purpose, not just for organizations, but for workers, for individuals. How do you know when people are actually being true to their purpose, their why, and living, as you say, from the inside out.

Simon Sinek (17:23)

Yeah. So, you know, if we talk to them, you'll find there's a calm confidence that they have. You'll find that there's a long term mentality, sort of an infinite mindedness that they recognize that it's all a journey that when things are going really well, they don't think that they're the hottest thing in the world because they know this doesn't last. But when things are going badly, they're like, okay, let's work together, hunker down, take it in stride, because this won't last either. And they tend to have insane amounts of calm and balance. Also, they talk the way they talk. It is sort of very hard to distinguish between their private lives and their professional lives because they view all aspects of their lives as contributing to their purpose. You know, the way I am as a friend is the way I am as an employee. What I choose to do for work is what I choose to do for my hobbies. And in some way, shape or form, they're all contributing to this view of the world that I'm trying to advance professionally. That's how they feel. Looking from the outside in, you can recognize that calm confidence. And the way they speak, for example, they don't give you resumes of how great they are. So tell me about you. Well, I'm senior vice president of one of the fastest growing companies in my sector.

Elise Hu (18:41)

Sure.

Simon Sinek (18:41)

You know, because they're not starting with what. That's a what mentality. I've got to prove to you how great I am. They speak in lofty terms like, well, you know, at the core, I'm an optimist and, you know, my life is an adventure to find ways that I can inspire people to do the things that inspire them. And I've been really lucky. I've earned a job as senior vice president at this company, which right now is doing pretty well. So the stuff can be in there, but it's not where they start.

Elise Hu (19:12)

But if we are talking about business leaders.

Simon Sinek (19:14)

Yeah, yeah.

Elise Hu (19:15)

At the end of the day, can the why or the purpose outweigh money as the ultimate goal? Because ultimately you do have to put food on the table or send your kids to school.

Simon Sinek (19:28)

Your question is very pointed. You said ultimate goal. As an ultimate goal. Why does absolutely trump money? You have to think of it like, why do we have companies? The purpose of company is not to make money. Money is fuel. You got to think of a company like a car. Right. You don't buy a car simply so you can buy gas. That's not the purpose.

Elise Hu (19:51)

Right.

Simon Sinek (19:52)

You don't start a company simply to make money. Money makes the company go. Gas makes the car go. The reason you have a car is so you can go places. So I started a company, I, meaning generic. I. You know, somebody started a company to make our lives a bit better, to offer some entertainment, to solve a problem, right? To go somewhere, to do something, to achieve something, to advance something, right? That's where we're going. And we need money to make this thing that we're trying to give to the world go. But you can't have a gas filled car with no compass, no gps, no direction, no destination and no map. You're just going to squirrel around saying how do we get more gas? How do we get more gas? Which is kind of the way companies look these days. The most beautiful companies, they have a plan, they have a map, they've got a compass, they're looking out the front window and of course they're looking at the gas gauge. And we follow the stupid Milton Friedman definition that the purpose of a company is to maximize profit within the boundary rules. In other words, don't break the law. That's a pretty low standard, right? Ethics is a much higher standard than the law. So companies do unethical things all the time. And the CEOs go in front of Congress and say like, well, we didn't break the law. Yeah, but you're still an asshole when you raise the you have a patent on an essential drug and you raise the price of it 1500%. Not nice, not illegal, but not cool. Right? And so we have to re understand what the purpose of a company is. The purpose of a company is to achieve something, take care of people and community, and make money.

Elise Hu (21:23)

We'll be right back after a short break.

C (21:27)

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Elise Hu (22:36)

Support for this show comes from Capital One. Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One Bank Guy. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast too. Oh really? Thanks Capital One Bank Guy. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capital1.com Bank Capital One NA Member FDIC Are you encountering more skepticism or cynicism about whether this why matters? In a time when there's so many bad leaders who are getting into and amassing so much power, there's a lot of folks who are following leaders who seem like they have compromised or unclear whys. That's for sure.

Simon Sinek (23:27)

Yes, but that's again, goes back to the incentive structures. The simple answer is no. I'm getting no pushback. Your question is sort of like Simon, you know, are people cynical about exercise? Because everybody's sitting on their couch and eating chocolate cake and getting, you know, getting fat, you know, Hashtag, has your theory of exercise really declined in value? No, they're not doing it. Doesn't mean it has no value. The golden circle in the concept of why is a tool. That's all it is. It's a hammer. If you leave it on a table, it does nothing. And you can do big things or small things with it. You can hang a picture or build a house with the exact same tool. But you got to use it. So the theory holds true. The tool exists. The question is, why aren't people using the tool?

Elise Hu (24:06)

Why aren't they?

Simon Sinek (24:07)

There's a few reasons. I mean, I'm going to sound like a broken record when I talk misaligned incentive structure.

Elise Hu (24:12)

Structural, of course.

Simon Sinek (24:13)

But another part of it is, and I'll use the same analogy, which is the big reason why most companies do not use any of my work is because I can't tell you when it'll work. And companies in this modern day and age with the pressures from their investors, have massive pressures to make things work on certain dates. So, for example, Simon, I need to get into shape. How do I get into shape? Easy, easy. I'm going to tell you how it works. I want you to work out every single day for 20 minutes. What if I'm really tired, you can skip a day here and there, but that's fine. But on balance, I need you to work out every single day for 20 minutes. And 100% of the time it will work, but I don't know when, and neither does any doctor. Right. And that's my work. My work you don't have to do every day. You can screw up, you can do things for short term, whatever. Just can't do it too much. Like, you can be healthy. You can eat chocolate cake now and then. Just don't do it every day. Right. But it's a discipline. It's a discipline to learn, to start with. Why? It's a practice. That's all it is. And 100% of the time, it works. Because I've been doing it for so many years and done it in so many industries with so many different people, I know it works 100% of the time, but because I can't say absolutely will work by your financial quarter, your financial year, they just don't bother.

Elise Hu (25:29)

Right. But it occurs to me that knowing your why could still be really useful and helpful in confronting uncertainty or even failure. Could you talk a little bit about how knowing your why could help with this time of tumult or uncertainty, whether it's individual or organizational.

Simon Sinek (25:48)

Yeah. So let's define what tumult or uncertainty are. Right. Tumult and uncertainty is the ground shaking beneath me. And bad news is different. You know, bad news we can kind of manage. Uncertainty is the killer. Right. Because I feel like I'm on shaky ground.

Elise Hu (26:05)

Yeah.

Simon Sinek (26:05)

Right.

Elise Hu (26:06)

Yeah.

Simon Sinek (26:06)

What a why is fundamentally, it's a foundation. You only have one why, and it never changes your entire life. It is literally the most stable thing. You can change how you do it. You can definitely change what you do, but you can't change why you do what you do. You can't change who you are. You are the sum total of the experiences you had that you raised. Now, whether you're living in balance with that cause is a different conversation. But the ability to know who you are even in times of uncertainty is very grounding.

Elise Hu (26:36)

Yeah.

Simon Sinek (26:36)

The ability to say to your friends and your colleagues, you can always rely on this one thing is very grounding.

Elise Hu (26:43)

You mention or you share something in your book about a time that you lost your own sense of why that this book or this concept came out of a darker time for you. When did you realize that? And how did you find your way back out? If you don't mind going into this.

Simon Sinek (27:00)

A little bit, it was a profound time. The golden circle. And the concept of why became what it became because of that dark period in my life. I never, ever want to go through it again. But I'm really glad it happened because like much darkness and journeys of darkness, there's learning and there's new things that come out of it. But that is 100% true. I went through this really dark phase of my life where I had a small business. This is pre y, pre Golden Circle, pre TED Talk, pre all of that stuff. I was living what some people would consider the American dream. I was an entrepreneur. I had survived more than three years because over 90% of all new businesses fail in the first three years. So I joined this very special club in America called entrepreneur. Right? And what you start to discover is that success is actually very more difficult than failure. Because what I didn't realize is my business had been built on the force of personality. I didn't have much of a structure. And as the business started to grow, I couldn't make every decision, and I couldn't be in every meeting, and I couldn't manage every account, and I didn't know what to do. And I was very embarrassed by the fact that I was clueless. I was afraid to ask for help. I felt that all of my reputation would be destroyed, put me into a dark depression. I didn't want to go to work anymore. I'd lost my passion. Anybody who's ever been in a dark place will know if you're in a dark place and you keep it to yourself, it gets darker. And I was lying, hiding, and faking every day of my life. I was just treading water. Everything was for show. And it wasn't until a very dear friend of mine came to me and said, something is wrong. Something is off. And I came clean. She offered me a psychologically safe environment to just admit that I didn't know what the hell I was doing. And I was clueless and afraid and paranoid and convinced I was going to go bankrupt. And all of these things were true. And just telling somebody without judgment lifted a huge weight off my shoulders. And it made me feel not alone. And she would say to me, you are not alone. You are not alone. That's all she would say to me, is, you're not alone. She would text me out of the blue, yna, you're not alone. And that feeling that I wasn't alone gave me the confidence to try and rediscover my passion. And I had this little idea on a shelf that I even called the golden circle back then, simply to explain why some marketing worked and some marketing didn't and it became an obsession. I learned my why, but more important, I figured out how to help other people find theirs.

Elise Hu (29:32)

If we have found our why, how do you know when your why might have gotten fuzzy over time? And then what do we do in response?

Simon Sinek (29:40)

Most of us, the way we live our lives, it's a little bit of roulette. You know, it's like sometimes we get it right, sometimes we get it wrong, sometimes we're in flow, sometimes we're not. It's kind of like you have good weeks, bad weeks, lucky breaks, unlucky breaks. And so the ability to put your why into words dramatically decreases the game of roulette. You're stacking the deck, you're counting cards. It dramatically increases the chance that you can stay in flow more easily, more often and more important or as important. You can explain why you made that gut decision so that other people have context and can help you and redirect things in the right direction, whether you're a human being or a company. Even if you know your why, sometimes whys do go fuzzy, where we start becoming more focused on the results and we forget the reason why we set out on the journey in the first place. Where to go back to our previous analogy, it's like we are staring at the gas tank. You should look down at the gas tank now and then, but you shouldn't be looking at the gas tank more than you're looking at the front windshield. So that starts to happen. I said it before, success is often the bigger challenge because the pressures increase, the obsession with money increases, the obsession with power increases, the obsession with fame increases, all of those things start to happen. It's a very Joseph Campbell journey where you become seduced.

Elise Hu (30:55)

And you brought this up a little earlier about how the why in our short term might feel different than the why in the long term, which is connected to so many current global crises like climate change. The struggle between the need for resources now and then the longer term need to protect future generations. So how do you consolidate or balance these two ideas of kind of the short term and the long term game?

Simon Sinek (31:25)

It's such a good question. And knowing your why actually helps you understand how these things work better. So people who advocate for climate change talk obsessively about how it's man made, and people who are climate change doubters talk obsessively about. Nope, just cycles. We've had these things come and go before. Well intentioned scientists, unfortunately Focused on what? Right. So they keep telling us about temperature, which is a result, right?

Elise Hu (31:54)

Yeah.

Simon Sinek (31:54)

And originally they called it global warming. Terribly bad marketing, terribly bad messaging. Global warming. This is the coldest winter we've ever had. You're idiots.

Elise Hu (32:02)

Right? Right.

Simon Sinek (32:03)

No. You start to discover that they're fighting over the wrong thing. They're actually fighting about whether it's man made or not, or whether these numbers are consistent with nature or whether they're exaggerated by humankind. It doesn't matter. That's like you have lung cancer. Let's have a debate. Whether it's genetic or whether it's because you're smoke, you have lung cancer. What difference does it make? Right. We're literally talking about the wrong thing. I don't care if it's man made. I don't care if it's a natural climate cycle. All I know is it doesn't look good. The planet has cancer. That's like saying there's a meteor heading towards the earth. Should we intervene and try and push it out of the way? Well, no, it's just a natural cycle. You got to let it. Of course, of course we're going to intervene. It doesn't matter if it's caused by human madness or not. The point is the trend doesn't look good. And whether it's true or not, maybe we should intervene just in case. Kind of like a meteor. Maybe we're completely wrong, but maybe we can tweak things a little bit. And maybe it's okay for companies to make a little less money or make money differently, you know, and change the way they do it. Just in case. This is part of the thing. When you start with why, you have a much clearer foundation on how to talk about the things that are concerning you. But because why exists in that ethereal part of our brains, what we do is we default to numbers and things that we can see and count. And now you end up debating the numbers and things we can count. And that's one of the reasons we find ourselves in the mess we're in.

Elise Hu (33:34)

Right? Right. And for the planet, if your why is just to continue to go on existing, then, well, that's the other thing.

Simon Sinek (33:40)

By the way, on both sides. Can people stop saying we're killing the planet? We're not killing the planet. The planet's fine. What we're doing is killing the human race. What's happening is the environment is changing to the point where we may not be able to sustain human life. But if you come back in 10 million years, I guarantee you life will be thriving without us. Right? The planet is 100% fine. It's us that's the problem. Yeah, sorry. Not passionate about this or anything.

Elise Hu (34:09)

Let's step back and talk a little bit. Just about actionable advice for listeners out there who are coming to start with why for the first time. What do you say to folks who are sort of like, how do I find my why to begin with?

Simon Sinek (34:23)

Yeah. So finding your why is process of discovery. And you go backwards and you look for patterns of when you are at your natural best. And you will discover that when you're at your natural best, when you're in flow or everything's going fine, you will find that these patterns exist and you can connect those dots and that's your why. There are many ways to do it. You know, I wrote a book called Find you'd why Six years after I came out with start with why, that was the biggest complaint. When I first came up with Start with why, people are like, got it. Got it. Amazing. How do I do it? So six years later, I came out with Find your why, which is just a workbook. You know, we have all kinds of tools to help people. But I can tell you right now how to do it. It's a fun little exercise called the Friends exercise.

Elise Hu (35:04)

Okay?

Simon Sinek (35:04)

And what you do is you find a best friend. You cannot do this with a spouse, a sibling, a parent or a child. Those relationships are too close. You do it with a best friend, the kind of person who you could call 3 o' clock in the morning. You know they'll be there for you and vice versa. You'll be there for them like best friend. Right?

Elise Hu (35:24)

Okay.

Simon Sinek (35:25)

And you ask them a simple question, why are we friends? And they're going to look at you like you're insane because you're asking them to put into words a feeling which exists in the part of the brain that doesn't control language, which is why it's hard to put emotions into words. And then you, ironically, you stop asking the question why because the question why elicits emotional answers and you convert to the question what? Come on, come on. What specifically is it about me that I know you'd be there for me no matter what. And they will hem and haw and they will try to describe you. Well, I trust you. You've always been there for me. And you play devil's advocate. That's just the definition of a friend. You have that from other people, too. What specifically is it about me? You're going to go through a few Rounds of this, and they're going to get frustrated, and you just keep playing devil's advocate, and eventually they'll give up. And eventually they'll stop trying to describe you and they'll start describing themselves. Simon, I don't know. I don't know. All I know is I can sit in a room with you. I don't even have to talk to you. And I feel inspired. And I got goosebumps because what they did is they articulated the value I have in their lives, which is my why. It's the thing I give to the world. It's the reason not everybody loves me. It's only the people who want that in their lives. Right. And I had the emotional response. So when you do this and they start saying something about themselves, you will either well up with tears or get goosebumps. And that tells you you're in the. At least in the ballpark of that's. That's what your why is. And the weird thing, fun thing is if you do it with multiple friends, they will say very, very similar, if not the exact same thing, because the thing you give to the world is the thing that they need. It's the void that you fill in their lives.

Elise Hu (37:08)

That's lovely. And there's plenty of people who do like you and want to hear this message and have. So I'm curious, before we let you go, do you have a story of impact that you've heard from somebody who's engaged with this book or your work that really moved you?

Simon Sinek (37:25)

My favorite stories are the ones where, like, it made it into a school or a church. I knew it would make it into business. And I'm touched by the number of people who write in or stop me on the street and say, I started my business or my business was built based on start with why. It's humbling. And I love those stories. I love those stories. But one where somebody says, I was just struggling to find my way in life. And I had just one yesterday, this guy said, like, just things weren't working for him. His career wasn't really working. His relationship was struggling. And instead of trying to solve all the problems to work on the edges, he went back to the root, which is him. Him. He is the root of all of these things in his life. You know, the only common factor in everything he's dealing with is him. And he was so lovely. And he basically said, you know, for whatever reason, maybe it was resignation. I just decided to stop trying to solve all those problems and go back to me and reconnecting with my why and learning what it is made clear all the mistakes I was making. And my career turned around. My marriage got better, I got happier. It's stories like that that I find so profound and inspire me to keep pushing and keep coming up with new ideas. Because when I get to see that my work can have an impact in someone's life, I mean, that's the greatest incentive in the world.

Elise Hu (38:59)

So, follow up question, what's next for you?

Simon Sinek (39:01)

I'm writing a book about friendship. I've become sort of obsessed with friendship. If you think about it, all the challenges that we face in the world today, people struggling with anxiety, depression, inability to cope with stress, in the worst cases, suicide. All of those rising rates of all those things. Friendship fixes all those things. I'm living proof of it. If it weren't for my friendship, I'm not sure what would have happened when I was in a dark place. If you peel the onion just one layer, you realize most of us are pretty bad friends. Like, would you cancel on a friend for a meeting? Would you cancel on a meeting for a friend? Oh, but my friend would understand. You know, we. And you find that we start to take friends for granted and you go even deeper, Right? Like, we know that if you have a struggling marriage, what do you do? You try and fix it. You go for therapy, you try and make it work. We know that if you're struggling at work, like you're struggling with a colleague, a boss or an employee, Right? What do you do? You talk to hr, you talk to each other. You try and fix it. You struggle with a friendship. There's no such thing as friendship therapy. Why not?

Elise Hu (40:00)

Right? Right.

Simon Sinek (40:01)

You know, there's entire books about how to be a leader. There's entire books about how to have successful marriages. Why aren't there books and books and books and books about how to be a friend? Why aren't we learning how to be better friends?

Elise Hu (40:12)

Great point. I agree with you and feel as though, you know, our society is over indexes towards romantic relationships over platonic ones. So I'm so glad that we have another big idea from you to read and share. When is that coming?

Simon Sinek (40:29)

You sound like my publisher. It'll come when it's done.

Elise Hu (40:34)

Love it. Great answer. Simon Sinek, thanks for sitting down with us once again.

Simon Sinek (40:38)

Thanks, Elise. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

Elise Hu (40:44)

That was Simon Sinek in conversation with me, Elise Hu, for the TED Talks Daily Book Club. And that's it for today. TED Talks Daily is part of the TED Audio Collective. This episode was produced by Lucy Little and edited by Alejandra Salazar. The TED Talks Daily team includes Martha Estefanos, Oliver Friedman, Brian Green Green and Tanzika Sangmarni Vong. Additional support from Emma Tobner and Daniela Balarezo. I'm Elise Hu. I'll be back tomorrow with a fresh idea for your feed. Thanks for listening. Ever wonder what your lashes are destined for? The cards have spoken. Maybelline, New York Mascara does it all. Whether you crave fully fan lashes with lashes sensational big bold volume from the Colossal a dramatic lift with falsies lash lift or natural looking volume from Great Lash. Your perfect lash future awaits. Manifest your best mascara today. Shop Maybelline New York and discover your lash destiny. Shop now at Walmart. You were made for taking care of your dog's every need and Farrah Pets was made for taking care of their digestive needs. Farrah's Probiotic supplement is made with innovative ingredients, ingredients, herbs and botanicals specifically formulated to help your dog thrive. Because when it comes to your dog's gut health, we were made for going above and beyond, just like you. Visit farapets.comdog to get 20% off today. That's F E R-A pets.com dog Farah Pets we were made for this.

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