Whitney Pennington Rogers (4:08)

For a lot of us, this is a moment when questions of family come into sharper focus. Who do we gather with? Who supports us? Who do we choose? And who chooses us? And for some of us, those answers might feel wonderfully clear, but for others, they there might be a tenderness around this or a sense that your answers aren't quite what tradition tells you they should be. And that's why our guest today feels especially essential right now. She's a journalist and author of the Other Significant Others, and last year she delivered a TED Talk that pushed us to expand who we count as our people and to recognize the deep, sustaining connections that don't always fit neatly onto holiday cards or family trees, but can shape our lives in very profound ways. I'm so grateful she's here to help us reflect on belonging, connection, and relationships that can carry us into this season and well beyond it. Please give a welcome to Raina Cohen.

Raina Cohen (5:03)

What a nice intro. Thanks, Whitney.

Whitney Pennington Rogers (5:05)

Well, I think just maybe to kick things off, your talk, the talk that you delivered on the TED stage is sort of a distillation of the Big Idea from your book, the Other Significant Others that essentially argues for a more expansive approach to friendship and the role it can play for all of us. And to pull a quote from the book, you say if we don't limit friendship, it can be central to our lives. So for those of us who Aren't familiar. As a primer, I think, for our conversation, what do you mean by this? How are we limiting friendship? And how could we think about it more fully?

Raina Cohen (5:39)

I think we limit friendship by thinking it can do less than it actually can. And one of the ways that friendship feels really clear is by looking across time and across places and seeing what friendship looked like in those times and places. And it was different, for one thing. I think the expectation now is that friendship is going to be a relationship that's private. It's just between you and someone else, or maybe it's a small group of people and it is a nice addition to your life, but it is not an essential part of your life. It's something that you can maybe put on the back burner. And that was just not true in many other places. I mean, you can see that there are rituals that were built around recognizing friendship potentially for the rest of your life. An example of this ritual is called sworn brotherhood. And it was recognized as something that people would witness, like that commitment. We don't think about friendship as involving commitment, let alone a commitment that you are going to formalize in front of other people. So I think even the idea of commitment is something that would surprise a lot of people. And then I think the kinds of feelings that we think are possible to experience in friendship are also kind of limited. That we hold out romantic relationships as the relationship where you can experience excitement and infatuation and the, you know, the sort of fluttery feelings that actually friends can experience. I can, you know, I can talk about my own experience with this. It's partly what led me to write the book. But again, if you look across different times and places, you will see that kind of affection where friends would talk about loving each other, and that's. That was obvious that you would love your friends. And I think especially, you know, talking about certain subsets of society, it's not that common to talk in that language of love or to snuggle up to your friend without that being a question of, you know, are you romantically involved. So I think between the idea that friendship is private, that it doesn't should be easy, it shouldn't necessarily involve commitment, and that there are. There's kind of a cap on how intense the emotional experience might be. All those are ways that we, I think, underestimate what friendship can. Can be and do for our lives.

Whitney Pennington Rogers (8:09)

And you, you mentioned just now that you have sort of a personal connection to this. Can you tell us a little bit more about why you wrote the book and then ultimately gave the talk.

Raina Cohen (8:17)

So I found myself in a friendship that really broke the definition of friendship that I thought was, you know, what it was supposed to be. And this happened in my early 20s. And I ended up meeting a friend who it turned out, lived 5 minute walk away from me. And we became much more intertwined in each other's lives than I had experienced. Maybe something somewhat comparable a couple of times. But we found ourselves struggling with even the language of best friend that, that felt inadequate, that something more like partners maybe fit. And I found myself thinking about other people that I had known at different points in my life who had these really intense, devoted friendships that didn't kind of couldn't be captured with the term friend or best friend. And then I looked to history, some of what I was just talking about before, and realized that we have a really specific idea about what friendship is now. And I wanted to find people today who had these kinds of friendships. And essentially over the course of those interviews, I realized that this wasn't just a project to lift up and help people recognize that there are these extremely close friendships that I call platonic partnerships, but that because they challenged the definition of friendship by blending together kinds of elements of partnership and platonic friendship, that they ended up asking all these bigger questions about how do we know that a romantic relationship is romantic? Why are romantic relationships held up higher than friendships by default? Like, how do we define what family is? How does the state define what an important relationship is? So basically like it started from this personal place, but all these bigger questions came up for me that I wanted to tackle in a book.

Whitney Pennington Rogers (10:13)

And I think it's really important to note that this isn't an argument against romantic relationships. You're not suggesting that you have either or, right?

Raina Cohen (10:22)

No, absolutely not. I mean, I. I try to be really careful in a number of ways to say that it's not either or. I think that would be kind of using the same logic that I am trying to push against the idea that there is one right way to live. I think currently the message we get is that the right way to live is to find a romantic partner, maybe have kids, to not be alone. And I don't want to say that that one right way is wrong, but I have found the other one right way. I think the bigger point is that there are a variety of ways to live deeply meaningful lives. And that building your life around a friendship or many friendships or some other kind of combo of things can be really important. And in fact, there are people who I profile in the book who have both a romantic partner and this really close friendship. And I explore the ways that those. Those different types of relationships can actually complement each other. Like it can make a romantic relationship stronger to have a really close friendship like this in your life. So I definitely don't see it as either or.

Whitney Pennington Rogers (11:32)

Hearing all of the things that you've researched and all the people you've encountered, it feels like you have just sort of this treasure trove of learnings and how you can think about friendship as sort of a primary, maybe even foundational relationship. And I'm curious to hear what you've learned about what can become possible for people when we do remove the limits from friendship and how it can function and how. Have you seen people's lives improve as a result of doing this?

Raina Cohen (11:59)

A really big lesson I got interviewing many dozens of people was that life takes you by surprise. And if you only have one way that you are told is possible to live your life and to be happy, it's just not that resilient to all of the things that can come up, which range from wanting a romantic partner, not being able to find one, to having a romantic partner and splitting up to having a kid with serious disabilities. I mean, there's sort of any number of things that I saw people struggle with, and what made them be able to move into a life that felt really full to them was being open to the possibility that a friend could be there, could be the backstop when things went wrong. I mean, I write about a woman who was dying of ovarian cancer, and her friend was really her primary caretaker, and her husband was not kind of in the position to help, especially with the kids. It's like having a wider safety net. Whether it's something that's acute or is just like your life didn't quite fit on the train tracks you expected. It's just this great way to still find a lot of meaning. And even for people whose lives don't take a turn that maybe they wouldn't have chosen, really benefit from having deep friendships because it means that they have more than one person in their life who can unlock a different side of them. I mean, I think about one of my friends who I'm just constantly laughing around, and I had had her and another friend, like, hang out. And I realized that one of my friends who brings up this really contemplative side of me had probably never seen me laugh as much as I had then. So I think also being open to the idea that you're going to have more than one really significant relationship in your life means that you have people who help you can figure out the fuller, well rounded version of yourself.

Whitney Pennington Rogers (14:13)

You know, I think there's been so much written these days about the challenges adults face in maintaining strong relationships, platonic relationships across different life events, you know, whether that's relocation or marriage or children. And, and I personally know that I've experienced some of these challenges as I've gotten older. What do you see as some of the biggest barriers to developing these types of relationships? And, and how do you recommend people overcome them?

Raina Cohen (14:40)

Well, one way to answer that is to think about what are the ingredients of a thriving friendship or thrive, I mean individual friendships. And this probably also applies to community. And researcher I talked to from the University of Utah said that the three magic ingredients of she was talking about attachment. So like any kind of close relationship were time, togetherness and touch. So if we work backwards from there, it's like how much time are we able to spend with other people? Well, if we live far from our friends or potential friends, if the priority we have is having a house that, you know, we can keep to ourselves, or there are problems with affordability, for instance, when we're trying to, to figure out where to live, that's going to reduce the amount of time we have. Same thing for if we're working all the time. Togetherness is also about like just sharing life together. And if the way that we are maybe inclined to spend time together because this is what's normal, is to like go get coffee or do an activity and, and not just let people into our everyday lives because that would be, you know, like going and doing errands for instance, because that would be boring or not appropriate. That also can be a barrier. And, and as well as if you think you're supposed to be kind of doing any activity of significance with your, with a romantic partner as opposed to a friend can be difficult for friendship. And then the third thing would be, is touch. You know, there's certainly norms that we have around how close you can get to your friends. As I mentioned before, I think straight men really bear the brunt of this, that this is why you see the side hugs and as opposed to like a full on hug or you know, see handshakes or one, one man I interviewed said that his, his father won't even sit next to him right next to him on the couch, he has to and all of his friends would do the same before he sort of had this other friendship. So I think the kind of those Sorts of barriers around touch, Norms of touch can also get in the way. And there are plenty of other things too, that I think get at the idea that friendship is supposed to be easy, that we shouldn't, you know, be inconvenienced or inconvenience others. That those are a few of the. I think the, the barriers that, that come into getting closer.

Whitney Pennington Rogers (17:23)

So then if someone were really interested in developing more intentional, platonic relationships that are deeper than friendship, as you're describing, what would be some of the steps you'd recommend people take to practice this in their. In their lives with existing friends? Let's start there.

Raina Cohen (17:39)

Yeah. I mean, one is how do you. How do you get more time together? And one thing that might sound simple but is really helpful is recurring ways to see friends. So I have a friend who has two young children and is really bound to her house. Like, there's a day of the week when her husband is. Has choir practice. And every other week I come by after her kids are in bed. And we hang out at the house. And it's like built into our calendars. And even if one of us is unavailable, traveling, whatever, we have this expectation of how much we're going to see each other that I think you can lose track of. If you, you see somebody once, you don't make plans immediately, and then, then a month or two or three passes. Another way that I've. I've done this is to plan the next time you're going to see the person before you leave your, like, the existing interaction. So if you're, you know, at dinner, get out your calendars and figure out the next time. So that, that's sort of like one thing that I would recommend, I think, on this, the idea of, like, what is acceptable to ask of a friend or do for a friend. I think trying to experiment with asking for help a little bit more or at least telling people when you're in a. You're having, you know, low mood, being open about the parts of your life that are not polished, it invites other people to then share those things with you. I've, you know, I seen this play out with people in my own life, that sharing something that is vulnerable becomes an invitation. And then that kind of is a flywheel that can bring you closer. And then the last suggestion I'll give is a more radical one, but maybe something to consider. On the one hand, I really believe in the idea that we should take friendship more seriously. We shouldn't run away at the first difficulty. We should try to have you know, harder conversations and make be intentional. But on the other hand, I think that there are ways that we, we make friendship harder than it needs to be because we have oriented so many of us, our lives around a different set of priorities, which might be as, you know, the idea that like, you want to have everything to yourself, you want to have a home that you have control over, or you make a decision about where to live so that it's as close to work as, you know, any, any number of other kinds of priorities. And then we accept that we're just going to have some social deprivation as part of it. I don't think that's actually, I say accept, but I'm not sure that people are even conscious of it, that there's this, this huge loss that we incur when we build our lives for some of these other values. And I have found that in my experience and in other people that I've interviewed, if they situate their lives so that they, it's built around friends physically close by their, to their friends, it makes it so much easier to maintain those friendships. And that is especially true for people who are really time strapped and like, bound to the home, like if they have young children or if they have to caretake for, you know, a relative in their life, that having somebody next door or down the block or, you know, just very close by, it can make or break the ability to get close to other people. So I know that that can take some work and we can talk about that, but that's the more radical suggestion that I think you're doing work on the front end that makes friendship easier in the longer run.

Whitney Pennington Rogers (21:29)

Well, you know, what you've shared is a lot around people that maybe are already in your life in some capacity and you see some opportunity to deepen the relationship.

Elise Hu (21:38)

How.

Whitney Pennington Rogers (21:38)

What are some tips you would suggest for people who are interested in meeting people with the hopes that it could turn into something more? How do you approach those sorts of relationships?

Raina Cohen (21:50)

Yeah, I mean, there are kind of a few steps there. So one is like the search process. How do you find people who you might potentially want to become friends with? And then there's, okay, you found somebody who you want to be friends with or a group of people, how do you make them, how do you like end up becoming friends? And then it's once you become casual friends, how do you become really close? I recently went to a party that I felt like was a very interesting example of a way to solve that first search problem. So there were a few of my Friends who had kind of realized that they wanted to widen their social circle because they would go to a party and like, all their friends were friends with each other. So they were like locked in this circle together. And they held a party that they called 3 degrees, like the 60 degrees of or whatever, 6 degrees of separation with the Kevin Bacon thing. And the rules were if you were invited, you were asked to bring one friend that the hosts didn't know. So that was the second degree. And then that person was also supposed to bring a friend that the first guest didn't know. So that's the third degree. And it meant that two thirds of the party were people that the host didn't know. And also because everyone was kind of at a. There were a lot of people at a remove, it made it more likely that you're going to meet new people. So that's a way I thought was really interesting for how you can encounter new people. Or you could do a version of that, I think at a dinner party with eight people. In addition to, like all the sort of standard things that people will advise because they make sense, like going to do some sort of activity that. That is oriented around community. Like, for me, that's swing dance. It could be a religious community. Something where there is a place where people are going to be and you're going to keep seeing them. And inevitably you'll strike up conversation because you keep seeing them. So that's kind of one way to deal with the search issue. And then in terms of how do you make friends from people that you find, I would recommend trying to make the first move. And this can be difficult in friendship because I don't think we have the expectation of rejection in the way that it's really built into, by contrast, romantic relationships that we understand that there's some amount of risk taking putting yourself out there in romantic relationships. But the same goes for platonic relationships. And it sucks to make a bid and have it rejected to invite someone to dinner or coffee or an activity, but I think trying to embolden yourself to make the first move, because otherwise there will be people who all maybe want to get to know each other, but everybody's a little bit afraid. And then the third thing is, like, how do you escalate the friendship? And I think that doing the kind of recurring hangouts that I suggested is one way I've sometimes been really explicit with people and told them I have a friend crush on them, or that, you know, earlier when I moved to D.C. where I live, I had decided I Like, told a friend, I'm, you know, deciding to focus on, like, making a few really close friends as opposed to a wider circle, and that she was one of those people. And that ended up, I think, pretty much transforming our friendship. We don't live in the same place, but I, you know, officiated her wedding this, this past year. And I think that really articulating that I had that I thought so highly of her and I really wanted to get to know her, made it easier for us to get closer, faster, and like, spend more time together than we might have otherwise.

Whitney Pennington Rogers (25:31)

It strikes me how much of a role, like just saying the thing really helps here in a way that maybe we do this in romantic relationships and not in others. Like, if someone were to say something like that to me, it would become immediately obvious how strongly you feel about that relationship. And that feels like such a simple but profound way to think about this. Well, we have a lot of questions from members about the important role of physically being in front of a person plays here. So Valerie C, for instance, asks if you could tell us more about the research around how important authentic connection is when you're an in person. Having it be an in person experience versus something that's virtual.

Raina Cohen (26:17)

I, you know, I didn't end up focusing that much on the kind of virtual connection piece, so I don't have like, specific people to cite other than what I was mentioning before around, you know, one of the key, key ingredients of a very close relationship, an attachment relationship, does involve physical touch. And obviously there's going to be variation across people. So I, but, you know, I would say, like, there are ways that you can connect with people virtually as we are doing now, but there are things that you don't pick up when you are texting with someone. As an example, I had a friend who I live with who was going through something very difficult and someone in the house asked how she was doing and, and she could not fake it. She couldn't, you know, she couldn't decide to. If someone had asked her that by text, she might have not answered immediately or, you know, brushed it off. But when you are in person with people, there's body language. There are, there are expressions that I think, especially if there's something that's kind of more difficult going on that you pick up on as well as just getting to know people better. You, you know, like, I think of a friend of mine who will just, like, she can get jittery and like, shake her leg a lot. And that is a signal to me that she's feeling particularly anxious and by observe, like observing that help me understand other things about her. So while I do think it's, it's really great to be able to connect with people all around the world through different kinds of online platforms and text and voice chat, I don't think that they are a total replacement for the things that you learn about people and the ways you are able to care for them, like giving a hug or being really what it means to be physically present. You need at least some in person interaction. I think at some point to get really close.

Whitney Pennington Rogers (28:27)

And I'd love to dive into this a little bit more later in the conversation. Just sort of thinking about the future and sort of where we're headed, but sort of sticking in this space of how to cultivate these relationships, thinking about support for this. What can loved ones or family members do to support people who have decided to deepen a platonic relationship?

Raina Cohen (28:50)

I think one thing is to come in from a place of curiosity rather than judgment. One thing that I saw people who had platonic partnerships really struggle with was the constant misunderstanding that they were up against. And often not just sort of benign misunderstanding, but people who kind of stigma, like treated their friendship in a way that was stigmatized and that could include gossiping or. You know, I write about a mother who is just like, I don't understand how you can be so close to somebody who you're not romantically involved in. And was convinced that the, the friendship between her son and her son's best friend was a romantic relationship. I mean that's pretty common. So I think coming in from not a place of like, here's how I expect you to live your life, why aren't you living your life that way? The only way I can understand this friendship is if it is romantic or, or telling them like your priorities are messed up. Which is also something I've heard. Yeah, those are, those are not very helpful. And instead being like, who matters to you? Why does this person matter to you? Like coming from a place of these open ended questions and trying to get to know the person, treating them as you would treat someone's new romantic partner or somebody that they, or maybe a relative that it's somebody who will, who really matters to a person you care about and therefore by extension you want to care about them too. So I think that that's, that's one way loved ones can be supportive.

Whitney Pennington Rogers (30:27)

And what about the structures around us? You talk about this in the talk and a fair amount in the book. This idea of Friends being supported in the workplace or their communities and government. What sort of things do we need to make room for more expansive and meaningful platonic bonds outside of these relationships in our wider communities?

Raina Cohen (30:52)

I mean, I think the kind of underlying principle of not coming from a rigid place of there's one or two kinds of relationships that matter, you know, romantic and familial and everything else is less important. I think that that translates to workplaces and to policy. So, you know, one way this tends to come up is when somebody, when a friend is ill or has passed away, and the question is, what will their workplace do to support them or not? And also, what does policy allow? So there was a woman who I mentioned earlier who took care of her best friend who was. Who was dying of cancer, was the main caregiver, and her workplace did not entitle her to family medical leave, nor when her friend died, was she entitled to bereavement leave, because those were benefits that were restricted to if it was a family member or a friend. Interestingly, if this had happened now, the state she lives in, Minnesota would. Has expanded the definition of kind of who counts as somebody that you can take this kind of leave for. So it's anybody that you, you know, you're close enough to consider family, which can be a platonic relationship. So that's something that both I think, workplaces and policy can do to be more expansive about providing benefits and rights to people who are outside of these boxes of blood or adopted family or marriage. And then the one other kind of significant policy area that I expect explore has to do with the fact that we really only have marriage as a source of rights and benefits in this country. Whereas in other countries and also in other times in the US There have been things like domestic partnerships that would allow people who are not romantically involved to be able to sign rights to another person. And instead, what ends up happening is that if you want to have your friend be your, you know, the heir to the, you know, the goods you have in your life, or you want them to have medical or legal power of attorney rights, I mean, those are things that you have to do by going to a lawyer getting, which can be expensive, and going through a lot of paperwork that may or may not be recognized in the heat of the moment, like in a hospital, because it's. It's not something that people are used to. They're used to this status that's associated with marriage or associated with being a family member, but not to the idea that a friend can be significant so one thing that I saw from different legal scholars was the proposal to offer legal alternatives to marriage like that there. You know, when you go to the dmv, you designate a person who is the default person to handle medical and legal things in your life. And that would be especially helpful for people who aren't married. But you can also, you know, in other cases, you would be able to assign rights to different people, which, again, is something that you can do if you spend a lot of money and have the wherewithal to go through a lawyer for different sorts of contracts. But that's not accessible to most people. You know, it's not like 20 or $30 in the way that a marriage license is. So having a way that the state could recognize relationships that are not romantic or familial in nature would be a really big step.

Whitney Pennington Rogers (34:35)

Well, we have a question from Carlos. Oh, which is really interesting. Connected to this. If we look at the opposite end of this, do you think that there's a business case for organizations to do this, to sort of support these sorts of relationships and connections?

Raina Cohen (34:54)

Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I think that people are more content when they have a life that sort of holistically feels full. I know that there is research also. I mean, if you're thinking specifically about friendships in the workplace, that. That can be really sort of have. Have effects on retention if people feel close, close to others at work. But if it's, you know, if you're talking about close friendships outside of work and let's say it's an occasion like someone is sick in their lives, I think people will feel a sense of gratitude to the organization that they are being seen as a whole person who isn't just there to be a kind of cog in the machine. And where there are very narrow exceptions for when they're not allowed to work, I think people respond to that really well. And it feels in line with, you know, different kinds of, like, affinity groups within organizations or the way that people can be really committed to a workplace that gives them high quality family benefits because they think that that will better, you know, allow them to experience the entirety of their lives and not feel like they're compromising, you know, getting promoted at work and that kind of thing. So I can imagine that businesses would benefit and have happier and more devoted employees when these sorts of relationships are recognized.

Whitney Pennington Rogers (36:32)

And I imagine that probably trickles out beyond organizations into the way communities sort of tackle this and think about this, too. One thing that really struck me in reading your book is is really the diversity of people who have you've encountered who have chosen to sort of pursue these types of relationships. It seems to really transcend everything from race, gender, age, sexuality, all types of identifying factors. Although you do see that the different identifying factors people have impact the way that those involved navigate these sorts of relationships. So I'm curious to know, as we sort of look to the future, how you, you see some of this changing as the demographic makeup of our world continues to evolve.

Raina Cohen (37:18)

Yeah, it was really important. I mean, thank you for saying that. It was really important to me to show that the variety of people who have these sorts of friendships, that it's not just some I don't like. I think young people often believe that they've invented everything. And in fact, I think the most powerful stories were people in their, you know, 60s, 70s, 80s, who have really shown what it looks like to have a real committed long term friendship. But you know, as we move forward, there are demographic trends that I think point to people finding or having the need to look more broadly for the kind of support and connection that they get. Many of the people that I wrote about, something, you know, something didn't quite work out in their lives that they, as they'd expected, they didn't, they maybe didn't find a partner or there's one person I wrote about who's on the asexual spectrum and realized that a sort of, I don't know, a standard or like conventional relationship was not going to be the kind of thing that they would pursue. And I think as we see the rates of marriage declining and people getting married later, that that can be a form of encouragement to be more creative with finding a life that you feel fulfilled by. I think there's also increasing recognition that the ways that we have set expectations for a healthy relationship are actually undermining those relationships and that it really helps to have a wider set of people. I mean, Esther Perel, the psychologist, has famously said that we now expect of one person what we used to expect of a whole village. So I think there are some kind of cultural forces that might increasingly encourage people to look to the significance of their friendships and broadening the kinds of people that they want to have in their lives. And I think I've just seen such a blow up in interest in chosen families and also particularly for caregivers having this idea of a village that they are, they don't have to go it alone. That parenting has been so difficult for so many people and isolating and there's just a lot More interest that I have seen and I can point to sort of like organizations that have, that are doing work on this in response to that, that growing interest in looking to friends and being creative about what it looks like to kind of like rebuild something that had existed more commonly in the past and exist in some kind of some cultures all over the place. To not just have a small nuclear family, but maybe to have multi generational homes or extended households where you have aunties and uncles who may or may not be related to you, but really feel like those deep connections.

Whitney Pennington Rogers (40:23)

Well, you mentioned tech earlier and how that wasn't really a big part of how you approached this. But as we're thinking to the future, I'm interested to hear your perspective on how you think tech will impact the nature of, I guess, all relationships, but these sort of platonic partnerships, as you say. A lot of people say that they, that tech might lead us to retreat from each other more and spend more time away from other humans, interacting less with one another. How do you see this playing a role in the future of these relationships?

Raina Cohen (40:55)

I mean, my best guess is that it will be a mixed bag, as it currently is a mixed bag. So I feel really grateful that I have a way to be in touch with friends from all over the place. I mean, just the other day I had a friend text me, you know, a photo from a place she's staying and that she was thinking of me. She lives on the other side of the country and we only get to see each other a few times a year in person or, you know, I left a voice memo on a walk yesterday for a friend of mine who lives in another city. So I think those ways of being able to reach out or coordinate so that you can go on a trip together, you know, whatnot, those are great ways that technology can enable or help us maintain friendships. I think the risk comes when technology becomes a replacement for the kinds of interactions that you might otherwise have with friends. When you're watching YouTube video after YouTube video or you develop parasocial relationship with someone that you haven't met and it feels, you know, it might feel like you, you are being known by whatever the. I work in podcasting, but you know, I think this can happen with podcast hosts or with television with celebrities, but it's, but it's fundamentally one sided. So I think tech can give us the illusion of having relationships when we don't. And then the. I think that. So with this newer technologies that around AI tools that are really, you know, skillful at mimicking Certain aspects of human relationships. I think one of the concerns there is that having relations is again about this one sidedness that having relationships with real humans or even like pets, like any kind of living being is, comes with like some difficulties. And I'm recalling a story that journalist I, I know told where she was visiting some people who are working on these robots that will, they think will kind of become friends for young, you know, for kids. And it's supposed to be a replacement for iPad interactions. And this journalist was, you know, a little bit unnerved by this and, and she was kind of cracking a joke about like, oh, have you guys thought about, you know, getting an AI girlfriend because she wouldn't have any needs? And this was, they'd also come up with like an AI dog that like the advantage that they said was, you know, you don't have to clean their pee or poop or train them or whatever, no needs. And these, the people at the startup were like, didn't take it as a joke. They were like, oh, that's like an interesting idea. So I think if people become used to interactions where there is nothing that they have to give up and they are getting what they want when they want it all the time, that that not only becomes a problem because it displaces time you would spend with other people, but also because it becomes this comparison point that it's impossible for any person to meet because a relationship is two sided and it's just not always going to be simple or easy all the time. So that's maybe my biggest concern around the future of technology and how it might shape our thinking about friendships.

Whitney Pennington Rogers (44:32)

And so much that you've shared here in terms of tips for people developing these relationships has been around being vulnerable and really putting yourself out there. And Renee A asked how you can attempt to connect with people without seeming needy. So what are I guess some of the ways you, you get over some of those feelings? And in doing that.

Raina Cohen (44:55)

You know, I think I still have, I will hear myself apologize for things and then have to backtrack on the apology. I think also like giving to people is one so that that might not feel vulnerable in the, in the same way as sharing that something difficult is going on in your life. But I'm thinking about a friend who hosted a small group of us at her house. I think letting people into your home is a very kind of intimate, revealing thing, period. And she just fed us all and had like multiple courses and she, you know, her expression of love and care is food and also like had, you know, my housewarming had brought these, like, incredible rooibos tea shortbread cookies. So there are ways that I think giving to other people and giving in a way that shows that you are maybe thinking about what in particular they might enjoy and giving them a little bit of exposure to your life, even if that's just like, what's the art on your walls? What are the books on your shelf? That can be a more. A smaller form of vulnerability. And I also think it's useful to understand for yourself, like, what are the conditions that make it easier to be vulnerable? I think for me, I'm probably more likely to open up in someone's home than I am out in public. So you can have these. The setting can be kind of a gateway to that kind of intimacy. So. Yeah, but, you know. Yeah, so those are ways to, I think, be a little bit vulnerable without feeling like you're immediately asking for help, and that by giving support to people, you're also giving permission to maybe later ask for help and also giving them permission to ask for help as well.

Whitney Pennington Rogers (46:56)

Well, Raina, as we wind down this conversation, and I sort of open by talking about the time of year that we're, you know, entering the holiday season, and, you know, this is a time for a lot of people that can magnify connection and also loneliness. So what are some ways you think we all can broaden our sense of family and the relationships that sustain us as we go into this period of the year?

Raina Cohen (47:18)

Yeah, I totally understand that. It is. It is a complicated and sometimes, like, difficult time. I'll share, you know, one thing that had a question current that I'm doing with my friends this year. So my husband is Dutch, and there is a very important holiday called Sinterklaas in the Netherlands, and it involves essentially, like a secret Santa. And you write poems that go with the gift. And it's kind of, you know, supposed to be fun. And we have. He and I have wanted to do this for each other. We've been together for a long time and have not. Have not often done it, because with two people, it's, like, not that exciting. We now live with six other people. And it occurred to me that we could do what his family had done when he was a kid and celebrate this holiday, that we were essentially taking what had been a family tradition and letting friends be part of that. And I think that this is. Is probably relevant for a number of things this time of year where there is a sort of more the merrier feeling and that it can be hard if you're on your own or maybe just have like one other person that you don't want to have a full Thanksgiving meal or you know, whatever, like whatever the kind of holiday is. So my suggestion would be is there some kind of sort of tradition or thing that feel would feel really nice to do this time of year that you that maybe you have attached to family but could be something that you invite other people into? I think the idea of, I think friendsgiving, which has has become very popular in the last several years in the US Is one version of that. And it can be a really like lovely way for people to experience Thanksgiving, but among people who are not necessarily their blood relatives. So yeah, that's one suggestion that I have for having people be to not feel like they are stuck with whatever the given family situation is and that they can make their own version of what they the things that they enjoy or might enjoy about this time of year.

Whitney Pennington Rogers (49:37)

So many great ideas here and Rayna, I feel like we could keep talking for ages. We've reached the end of our time, unfortunately. And thank you to the members who submitted questions that we didn't, we didn't get to this has been wonderful. Thank you so much for the gift of your time and your insight.

Raina Cohen (49:53)

Rena well, thank you for your thoughtful questions and to everybody who submitted questions to it's really, it's exciting to me that people care about this topic so much and want to learn more about it.

Elise Hu (50:10)

That was Raina Cohen in conversation with Whitney Pennington Rogers for a TED membership event in 2025. This conversation was part of an exclusive TED membership event. TED Membership is the best way to support and engage with the big ideas you love from Ted. To learn more, visit ted.com membership if you're curious about Ted's curation, find out more@ted.com curation guidelines and that's it for today. TED Talks Daily is part of the TED Audio Collective. This episode was produced and edited by our team, Martha Estefanos, Oliver Friedman, Brian Greene, Lucy Little and Tanzika Sangmarnivang. This episode was mixed by Christopher, Faizy Bogan. Additional support from Emma Tobner and Daniela Balarazo. I'm Elise Hu. I'll be back tomorrow with a fresh idea for your feed. Thanks for listening.

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Elise Hu (52:09)

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