The ethical case for taking on the climate crisis | Al Gore, Wanjira Mathai & Karenna Gore (TED Countdown House)

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Podcast: TED Talks Daily
Episode: The ethical case for taking on the climate crisis | Al Gore, Wanjira Mathai & Karenna Gore (TED Countdown House)
Date: December 6, 2025

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Overview

This episode features a dynamic in-depth conversation from COP 30 in Belem, Brazil, where Nobel laureate and climate activist Al Gore is joined by Wanjira Maathai and Karena Gore—the co-conveners of the Global Ethical Stocktake. Together, they discuss the urgent need to recenter ethics, justice, and values in climate negotiations. The conversation unpacks why an ethical lens is vital, emphasizes centering the voices of the most vulnerable, and explores pathways for accountability, just transition, and community-driven resilience in the climate movement.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Introducing the Global Ethical Stocktake

• Purpose: Taking stock not simply of emissions or fossil fuel usage, but of our progress on "the spectrum of right versus wrong" in tackling the climate crisis.
• Historical context: It took 28 COPs before "fossil fuel" was even mentioned in negotiation language, signaling a systemic avoidance of fundamental issues.
• Ethical reset: The 2025 stocktake, galvanized by Marina Silva, centers justice and values as the pathway forward.
  • “Taking stock of how many barrels of oil and how many tons of coal, that’s one thing. But taking stock of how we’re doing on the spectrum of right versus wrong is really at the heart of the challenge that the world faces..." — Al Gore (04:18)

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2. Centering People, Justice, and the Global Majority

• Civil society’s influence: Emphasized as critical since the 1.5-degree target’s Paris inclusion (05:30).
• Ethical perspective: Wanjira Maathai describes the initiative as a “reset,” moving people from the periphery back to the center, with a focus on local and indigenous communities.
  • “We have to center people. We have to center indigenous people, local communities, those who are most affected.” — Wanjira Maathai (05:57)
• Global majority: Framing most-affected nations as the "global majority," not merely as the vulnerable or disadvantaged.
• Upcoming momentum: Reference to G20 summit in South Africa and the continued push for justice-centric climate dialogue.

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3. Redefining the "Why" in Climate Action

• Faith, ethics, and accountability: Karena Gore explains the need to shift from just science and data to considering moral and spiritual dimensions.
  • “In order to know the how, we need to know the why... The way the circle of moral concern is drawn depends on who’s doing the ethics and what the ethics are applied to, applied to the whole earth.” — Karena Gore (08:41)
• The excluded voices: Climate justice requires including those with least say but most at risk—poor, marginalized, future generations, nonhuman life.
• Transparency and moral clarity: The fossil fuel industry’s role must be scrutinized in terms of moral consequences and accountability.

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4. Africa’s Response & Opportunity

• Showcasing Africa’s agency: African nations are leapfrogging outdated technologies, e.g. Ethiopia’s commitment to renewable energy and phasing out fossil fuel vehicles (12:38).
• Strength in solutions: Positioning Africa as a hub of future climate solutions due to resources and a young, growing workforce.
  • “Africa will not be defined by the deficits but by what we can actually do for ourselves... There is an absolute moral obligation to decarbonize and phase out fossil fuels.” — Wanjira Maathai (15:45)

Notable Moment

• Kumi Naidu’s Challenge: During the Africa stocktake, activist Kumi Naidu challenges COP leadership directly to treat fossil fuel phaseout as “non-negotiable.” (16:14)

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5. North America's Ethical Reckoning

• The U.S. and moral dissonance: Karena Gore highlights a disconnect between Americans’ daily experiences (climate impacts, pollution, anxiety) and prevailing cultural values, predicting an imminent cultural shift (18:59).
  • “I sense so much dissonance in the United States of America that feels like it can't possibly continue forever.” — Karena Gore (19:14)
• Environmental justice history: Recounts the 1991 People of Color Environmental Summit and its foundational principles—connecting American environmental justice directly to global climate discussions (21:15).
• Indigenous wisdom in dialogue: North America stocktake opened with the Haudenosaunee Thanksgiving Address, highlighting the omission of nature and women from the U.S. Constitution.

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6. Colonialism, Capital Flows, and Structural Injustice

• Colonial legacy vs. leadership responsibility: While colonization shaped current challenges, African youth increasingly blame their own leaders for perpetuating extractive, exclusive systems (27:02).
• “Fossil fuel colonialism”: The global finance system prioritizes fossil fuels over renewable investments in developing nations, perpetuating a new form of colonial exploitation (29:07).
• Loss and Damage Fund: Wanjira Maathai notes its chronic underfunding (<1% of what is needed), calling this the epitome of neocolonial injustice (30:33).

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7. Why Ethics Matters: Right vs. Wrong

• Moral claims and structural evil: Karena Gore invokes philosopher Dietrich Bonhoeffer, arguing that much climate harm is legal, normalized, and falsely justified (33:00+).
  • “Most of what is causing the climate crisis is perfectly legal and even socially encouraged… and financially subsidized.” — Karena Gore and Al Gore (34:21–34:35)
• The power of truth: Illuminating the ethical stakes is already shifting the debate, even inside heavily lobbied COP venues.

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8. Resilience from the Ground Up: Indigenous & Local Knowledge

• Local solutions, African science: Highlighting African wisdom and community-based approaches for resilient food systems, especially adapting to droughts, restoring landscapes, and maintaining seed sovereignty (41:29).
  • “The climate crisis ultimately is local, and the solutions that will make a difference are local, too.” — Wanjira Maathai (42:41)
• Seed sovereignty and resistance: Drawing from the Green Belt Movement’s legacy; communities resist seed patents and assert the value of “foresters without diplomas”—local women outperforming state systems (43:25).

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9. Reconnecting with Nature & Interdependence

• Climate and biodiversity unity: Karena Gore emphasizes that the root of the crisis is the illusion of separation from nature; indigenous philosophies teach interconnectedness.
  • “Other living beings are our relatives... It’s actually our relatives in an interdependent web of life. Our food is other living beings.” — Karena Gore (48:48)
• Ubuntu and global wisdom: African ethical traditions, like Ubuntu (“I am because you are”), reinforce the moral imperative of interdependency in climate solutions (53:00+).

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10. The Future of the Global Ethical Stocktake

• Making it permanent: Both guests advocate for the Ethical Stocktake to become a fixture at global COP meetings; the process must stay “anchored in our values towards others,” in every climate room, negotiation, and movement (52:33+).

Essential Questions from the Global Ethical Stocktake

Karena Gore summarizes five central questions, including:

• If we know what to do, why aren’t we doing it?
• Why maintain harmful production and consumption models?
• How do we ensure wealthy countries aid vulnerable nations in transition?
  • “These are questions that are actually quite disarming in their sort of overview approach, inviting in joy and space for grief when necessary. So I think it's incredibly healthy and necessary.” — Karena Gore (55:39)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Taking stock of how many barrels of oil and how many tons of coal, that's one thing. But taking stock of how we're doing on the spectrum of right versus wrong is really at the heart of the challenge...”
  — Al Gore (04:18)
• "We have to center people. We have to center indigenous people, local communities, those who are most affected.”
  — Wanjira Maathai (05:57)
• “Most of what is causing the climate crisis is perfectly legal and even socially encouraged… and financially subsidized.”
  — Karena Gore, Al Gore (34:21–34:35)
• “Africa will not be defined by deficits but by what we can actually do for ourselves. But there is an absolute moral obligation to decarbonize and phase out fossil fuels.”
  — Wanjira Maathai (15:45)
• "Colonization has come up... but our governance systems are responsible for the next phase.”
  — Wanjira Maathai (27:10)
• "This is actually the doorway through which we can walk into the next phase.”
  — Karena Gore (51:53)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |------------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 04:06 | Al Gore introduces the ethical lens and the Global Ethical Stocktake | | 05:30 | Wanjira Maathai on a justice-centered reset and people as the center | | 07:18 | Karena Gore on ethics, faith, and finding the “why” | | 11:48 | Al Gore asks about Africa’s climate leadership and agency | | 12:38 | Wanjira describes Ethiopia and Africa’s renewable energy leap | | 15:45 | The Africa Stocktake: self-reliance, moral obligation, and Kumi Naidu’s direct challenge | | 18:06 | Karena Gore on U.S. cultural and moral reckoning | | 21:15 | Environmental Justice roots in the U.S.—1991 summit and indigenous acknowledgment | | 27:02 | Colonization, neocolonialism, and modern African leadership | | 29:07 | Fossil fuel colonialism and injustice in climate finance | | 34:21 | Legal, moral, and structural wrongs in climate action | | 41:29 | Community-based resilience: African food systems, women leaders, seed sovereignty | | 46:41 | Green Belt Movement traditions and resisting corporate seed control | | 47:35 | Reconnecting climate and biodiversity, nature as kin | | 52:06 | The future of the Global Ethical Stocktake | | 55:39 | Karena Gore lays out the five disarming central questions of the stocktake process |

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Conclusion

The conversation shines a light on a vital shift in the global climate conversation: from spreadsheets and emissions to justice, ethics, interdependence, and moral clarity. The Global Ethical Stocktake emerges as a transformative platform, rooting climate action firmly in the “why”—justice, equity, future generations, and the interconnectedness of all life. Its future as an enduring part of the COP process is championed by leaders who see ethics as the key to unlocking real, inclusive climate solutions.

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Transcript

[Elise Hu]

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You're listening to TED Talks Daily where we bring you new ideas to spark your curiosity every day. I'm your host, Elise Hu. We are living the effects of climate change and see evidence of it with more frequent and intensifying natural disasters. So why aren't we solving the climate crisis? In this special in depth conversation from the TED Countdown House in Belem, Brazil, during the 2025 United Nations Climate Change Conference, otherwise known as COP 30, Nobel laureate Al Gore spoke with Wanjira Maathai and Karena Gore, who are leaders of the Global Ethical Stocktake, an urgent values first on climate action that seeks to center justice, phase out fossil fuels, and elevate indigenous and global south leadership. Discover the initiative that's making fossil fuel lobbyists squirm and climate veterans hopeful before the world moves on to COP31 next year.

[Al Gore]

It's such an honor to be here with Wanjira and Karena. I hope you can imagine what a pleasure it is for me to be here with Karena, but also with Wanjira. We've known each other for so long. We're here to talk about the Global Ethical Stocktake. This is a new initiative in COP30 that frankly, in my view, somebody should have thought of a long time ago. Taking stock of how many barrels of oil and how many tons of coal, that's one thing. But taking stock of how we're doing on the spectrum of right versus wrong is really at the heart of the challenge that the world faces in attempting to solve the climate crisis. It is really a groundbreaking initiative and it took 28 cops before the phrase fossil fuel was ever even mentioned. But now that it's been mentioned, the focus is really intensifying. So Wanjira and Corinna, you two have served as co conveners of the Global Ethical Stock Tag, helping to gather input from Africa and North America respectively. So I'd like to start by asking you both, each one of you, for your perspective on what makes this Global Ethical Stocktake so important to the negotiations underway here in Berlin. Wanjira, why don't you start?

[Wanjira Maathai]

Thank you so much. The Global Ethical Stocktake, in many ways in my mind is like a reset. Yesterday we were reminded by Lawrence Tobiana that when the 1.5 degree statement was placed into the Paris agreement, it was thanks to civil society, it was thanks to the people. And over time people have become more and more peripheral, the technical has taken over and it's time for a reset. In her wisdom, Marina Silva decided that this would be the cop. And let's remember she was courageous to actually convene five stocktakes across the world. I think she attended most of them and center justice in the process over a whole year. Said that this will be the COP where the lens through which we see solutions will have to be ethical and that we cannot address the climate crisis if we make ethical issues and values an afterthought. For me, that's everything because coded in that is that we have to center people. We have to center indigenous people, local communities, those who are most affected. I'm starting to like the thought of the global majority that the most impacted, large majority of those who've done the least, that we cannot ignore that. And that also made us a lot fiercer about how we show up here. And also remember we are moving on to the G20 in South Africa. The very first time it's being held in Africa. They will not believe what will hit them just because we will be talking about this issue and centering it constantly.

[Al Gore]

Fantastic. Well said.

Lorena.

[Karena Gore]

Well, thank you so much to TED Countdown House. I want to say that this is a great honor for me to be a part of the Global Ethical stocktake. I am delighted to be here with my father. I'm so happy and honored to be in the company of Wanjira Mathai who's such a wonderful leader in the world. And I've learned a lot from you. Thank you. I am not a cop insider. I haven't been somebody that's been at all the cops and following every single move of it. I have been at the center for Earth Ethics which had our 10 year anniversary last year. And we draw from the world's faith and wisdom traditions to face the ecological crisis. And we explore the moral and spiritual dimensions of climate. So when this was announced as an idea, the global ethical stock take, it was a great deal of excitement. And I have to say that picking up on what each of you has said, it feels like the time is so ripe. And this is the missing piece after 29 cops, as you've said, we know what the problem is and we know what we need to do about it. But we don't necessarily, from the data and the science and the technology know how to do that. And in order to know the how, we need to know the why. And it really strikes me that sometimes people lose faith in this process because it seems as if the why is about sustaining current systems that are very inequitable, that involve a hoarding of material wealth by the few, that involve a continued disassociation from the natural world that we evolved in, from our cultures, our communities, our deepest values. And so if through the global ethical stocktake, we can really face not only the moral stakes in terms of the suffering and the death and the loss that actually will occur, some people complain that's doom. But in the lens of the global ethical stocktake, we don't have to have that conversation. Is it doom? Is it optimism? Is it pessimism? It's just what the system mistakes are. It's doing a moral ethical stock take. These choices will have consequences. And I think that the other thing that we can do is look at issues of how one draws a circle of moral concern. It's one of the things that happens in ethics. You know, there's different types of ethics, professional ethics. So on the way the circle of moral concern is drawn depends on who's doing the ethics and what the ethics are applied to, applied to the whole earth. We need to look at the fact that those who are most impacted by the climate crisis are simultaneously those that are least likely to have a say in the decisions that are being made and least likely to have caused the systems that are causing the harm. And so for those three, the poor and marginalized people of the world, future generations, all non human life, we need to keep that present in the room. The global ethical stocktake has, has done that. It does that. It shines that light constantly, even knowing that it's here. And so that makes a difference. And then we also have to ask about accountability. You know, at Union Theological Seminary, where the center for Ethics is based, there was a way in which people began classes when I first went there by saying, who are you accountable to? Say your name and who are you accountable to? And at first I thought that was kind of off putting, but I understood it after a little while. It's actually very real. It explains something about your consciousness and presence. And so it was named early on that the fossil fuel industry's participation was a problem. And I think that drawing the circle of moral concern, understanding who people are accountable to, with that type of transparency and connecting to our deepest values, makes the global ethical stock take exactly the right platform, vortex force for this moment. And I'm so Happy to be a part of it.

[Al Gore]

Thank you. Thank you very much.

One of the groups that has been shortchanged, I don't know quite what the right word is, is the Global South. And Wanjira, you come from the global south. You've been one of the most distinguished leaders in Africa for two decades. Africa has.

Fastest growing continent and it has 60% of the prime solar resources in the world, but gets only 2% of the climate finance that is allocated in the world. And that is part of the structures that you said, Corinna. Some people are trying to keep them in place, but really our objective is to be accountable to all the people of the earth, including future generations, including non human life. So in the midst of this, Africa has been responding in its own energetic and unique way and it's not always seen and understood in the rest of the world. As one of the great leaders in Africa, how has Africa been responding to this? And what could the rest of the world learn from the way Africa is now responding?

[Wanjira Maathai]

That's a really good question because we just came out of the Africa Climate Summit in Addis, a country that has made a conscious decision to phase out immediately fossil fuel vehicles. That is Ethiopia deciding that actually it's not because they are emitters, because they are not, but it's because it makes economic sense. This is a country with 90% renewable energy in the grid. They said let's invest in the energy we have, the forces and the opportunities are aligned with for Africa to leverage and leap into the future and not invest in the past because it makes more sense for us. And you're seeing that happening in Ethiopia. You're seeing countries and governments investing in local manufacturing, local opportunities to increase demand for renewable energy. This is all happening despite what others are saying. Actually it's in spite of any doom and gloom. They're so busy doing the hard work. And this is what's really important about the African story right now. The common but differentiated responsibilities must remain. And it was centered in the Africa Global Ethical Stocktake. But immediately after that was the opportunity to see Africa not as a challenge, but at the hub and the center of solutions that actually the world will not address the climate crisis without Africa unlocking its renewable energy resources. It's the critical minerals that are responsible for the renewable energy and the fastest and youngest growing workforce. These are the resources of the future. They will be the opportunities to decarbonize deeply, if we are honest with ourselves, to deeply decarbonize, you will have to move some of these real industries, data Centers to places where there's 90% renewable energy. Those are the opportunities Africa is working, investing in and creating the political opportunity and sending political signals that that is the business we want to do the business of the future and not the business of the past.

[Al Gore]

Yeah, fantastic. And the African leaders summits have been quite inspiring to me. Corinna introduced me to Reverend William Barber II often quotes a line from scripture in my faith tradition about the stone that was rejected by the builder which then becomes the keystone in the new architect's design. And Africa is now in a place where it might become one of the real leaders in the world. You mentioned Ethiopia. Kenya is also making great progress. Zambia is making great progress. Nigeria, the biggest country in Africa finally eliminated the subsidies for diesel. And as a result the incredible boom in solar panels there is just startling the world. So and, and Corinna was telling me also she was at your Africa stock take. And tell me what happened at the end with Kumi Naidu.

[Wanjira Maathai]

Well you know I liked this about the Africa stocktake.

[Elise Hu]

It's.

[Wanjira Maathai]

It didn't spend a lot of time on what others must do for us. It spent a lot of time reminding people that Africa will not be defined by the deficits but by what we can actually do for ourselves. But that there is an absolute moral obligation to decarbonize and phase out fossil fuels. So Kumi Naidu and everybody who knows him knows that he's now leading the non proliferation treaty stood up and faced the COP presidency because we had President Correa Delago there, we had Anatoly there and of course we had Marina Silva and said if you as the COP presidency are serious and here we are the global ethical stocktick. You must take this issue on head on because the phase out of fossil fuels is non negotiable.

[Elise Hu]

And please stay with us. We will be right back after a short break.

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[Al Gore]

Karena, you co led the North American Ethical stock tank, which comprises not just the United States, but also Canada and Mexico, Greenland, Bermuda, some island nations. But the elephant in the room here at COP 30 is of course the U.S. absence and the U.S. departure from the Paris Agreement. U.S. is still the largest historic source. China will soon claim that title, but the US has a moral obligation to weigh in. What is your take now on how Americans are contending with the climate issue in the absence of any leadership from the U.S. government?

[Karena Gore]

Well, the United States of America is going through a moment.

We all know, ourselves, our friends. Sometimes people have those times, they're just going through something and then hopefully come back stronger than ever. And I think that one thing I would name is that and obviously so diverse to talk about what Americans are thinking is very difficult. But I would say that I sense so much dissonance in the United States of America that feels like it can't possibly continue forever. You know, dissonance between people's experience. We've had these in talking about climate, we've had these heat waves and stronger storms and droughts and wildfires and also people live with a lot of the pollution. Of course that is situated largely in low income communities and in communities of color and that is a big part of the story. But by and large it feels to me like many Americans are deeply unhappy with the lifestyle style, with the culture, with the society. There's so much, there's a lot of anxiety. And I would say of course that has socioeconomic dimensions to it and it's not fair, but it seems rather across the board, honestly. And I think that the dissonance is so stoked by our culture of distraction and screens and you know, it's not incidental to the Climate crisis, obviously, that so often we're just. People spend 90. I think the statistic is something like 90% of time indoors. And then on that, you know, much of it on screens. And there's so much emphasis on consumerism and commodification of everything. And so I feel that the way in which Americans are processing this is about to change because the dissonance is not tenable in the long term. There's that saying, darkest before dawn, things get so bad. There's a distillation of this idea of denial of the climate crisis, of an embrace of greed and selfishness and materialistic values and so on. And I think that in some way it's catalyzing something on a deeper level. And I can stop there and just say the global ethical stocktake was a really wonderful opportunity to look at. It was North America, as you say, it wasn't only the United States of America, but within the United States of America we have a lot of deep legacies and lineages and heritage to work with and to dig deeper and define those voices that can represent from what the best that's happened in that country is, was such a pleasure and an honor. And so just to give an example, the environmental justice movement I mentioned before about the location of the toxic sites and where most people are experiencing the impacts. In 1991, there was the first National People of Color Conference on the environment in Washington, D.C. and it was convened by actually the United Church of Christ played a role in this. And they had done this study in 1987 called Toxic Waste and Race, which tracked and mapped. And this is where data is very important, you know, to this movement that was being dumped in mainly black and indigenous communities, Toxic waste in the smokestacks and so on. So the 1991 conference came up with the 17 principles of environmental justice. And right in talking to the people that were there and the leaders of the environmental justice movement in the United States, which include Robert Bullard and Benjamin and Peggy Shepard and others, there was a realization that they all remembered. Yeah, we went to Rio right after we went to Rio in 1992. And wasn't that amazing that all of the UNFCCC and all of these conferences started there and there were conversations they already knew about what we were talking about. The very first principle of the 17 principles talks about Mother Earth, ecological unity of life. You know, it is about justice and fairness. And it's also about expanded consciousness of where we are, of the reality that we're living in on this living planet. So to have the Voices from and somewhere in the official and some of the self organized from the environmental justice movement in the United States, that comes from a deep place that's very American. And it's not just about, you know, the face that we're showing to the world on the biggest stage right now. It's about the depth. And I think I'd also like to mention too, we were able to open with the Haudenosaunee, better known as the Iroquois Thanksgiving Address, which is often called the world's before all else. We had Sophia Paulus, Onondaga young woman, give this address. And this is ancient from a culture that is indigenous to that region and was very influential actually on the founding of the United States in many ways.

[Al Gore]

So some of the key concepts that made their way into the U.S. constitution, checks and balances, for example, that came.

[Karena Gore]

From the Haudenosaunee, the Haudenosaunee Confederacy of the Six nations of the Iroquois. But they will say that we left out this is what Haudenosaunee people would say. We left out two things. We left out nature and women.

So.

We opened the Global ethical Stocking North America with the Thanksgiving Address with Sophia Palace. And what it is, it's acknowledging and thanking all of the beings of the natural world. The winds, the sun, the waters, the berries, the fish, the birds. I mean, I'm sorry, forgive me for paraphrasing this way. I'm just trying to communicate it quickly. Please don't mean to be disrespectful, but just to convey that this is the consciousness that we lack. And you've seen with this, you know, I don't want to call it a trend. I think there's something quite serious and heartfelt about it with land acknowledgments, which are very, very important. And I've always felt that there's something in there of that yearning, you know, it is about what was unfair in the past and who did something wrong and the loss that hasn't been acknowledged and the pain. But it's also about the land actually where we are. So to begin with, that Thanksgiving address, to have a moderator who was Taino, was the first people to encounter Christopher Columbus. There is a lot of Taino rooted people in New York City because they're Puerto Ricans. And so anyway, I'm saying these broad brushstrokes, but I just want to say, you know, as an American growing up the way I did, which was a little bit vicarious campaign trail politics. So it's exposed to the political culture, the electoral Process very much with an extremely idealistic view of who we are as Americans. And you know, at a certain point, and this is before this current administration, I had this realization through, you know, education of various kinds, not just in higher institution education places, but in life that, you know, I grew up thinking, gosh, we're so great as Americans because we threw off the colonizers, you know, we got rid of colonization, it's so great, that's who we are. And then at a certain point I was like, wait a minute, we are the colonizers?

Uh oh. And the complexities of that are of the essence of a global ethical stocktake. It's not that simple. And to be able to look internally and then to be able to use this, this modality of this global ethical stocktake. They call it the Balanso, the balance. I love how they call that in Portuguese. You don't need to feel guilty and shame and all of that. Primarily just demonstrate the other way, walk the other way. And I think that's what we're being given the chance to do.

[Al Gore]

Colonization has come up and one of the many legacies that complicates our path forward now is the history of colonization in Africa. Some of the long running conflicts in Africa really were not there prior to colonization when different groups were pitted against one another. Is that still an important legacy that must be addressed in Africa?

[Wanjira Maathai]

You know, it's so interesting because I think my mother's generation obsessed more about colonization than my generation. And it's interesting to see that because we are turning our eyes and our demands for responsibility on the leadership. Because our governance systems are responsible for the next phase. It is to them that power was handed. We remind them. And a lot of what we struggle with today is not thanks always to colonization alone. The foundations may have been set and they were. But we have leaders who have continued the legacy of exploitation. We have leaders who have continued to exclude and to impoverish by enriching themselves. We're calling them out. I don't know how many people know that a country like Kenya. The average age of Kenyans today is 19 years old.

80% are under the age of 35. They have no time to agonize about what may have happened. They're looking into the future and they're holding governments accountable. We have young people who have lost their lives challenging governance systems and saying no, we shall not be exploited by our own people. So I think the current obsession is on leadership. We don't have much time. We've got to transform economically we cannot adapt against poverty. And poverty is the number one SDG for a reason. We've got to focus on ensuring that people are not the hungriest and the poorest and facing the most dramatic impacts of climate change. When you are on the edge, it doesn't matter what sort of help comes, you're on the edge. And so I think it is a completely different conversation than we've had in the past because when you have young people who are looking for jobs today, who are looking at their leaders and saying you have the keys, how come it's still this way? So there's a bit of a different conversation now.

[Al Gore]

Yeah. But if I could persist a little bit on the, on the word colonization. Some of our mutual friends who are activists in Africa use the phrase fossil fuel colonialism with. I mean in the developing world as a whole, 100% of the increased global warming pollution emissions in the years ahead will be from developing countries. Yet developing countries only get 18% of the fossil fuel of the finance for the sustainable, for the green revolution, and yet they get almost half of the finance for building yet more fossil fuel facilities and the resource curse that Nigeria and many other nations in Africa have suffered. So the global system for allocating capital still has a legacy from an earlier era. And is that now changing in Africa?

[Wanjira Maathai]

I would say we then are using neocolonialism to define some of these new structures that have borrowed the patterns of exploitation, patterns of exclusion. And definitely the fossil fuel industry is one because we know we have 60% of the world's best solar potential. Why not invest in that, like you said, 2% of investments in solar.

[Karena Gore]

Why?

[Wanjira Maathai]

I called my friend who is a negotiator for Botswana here on loss and damage and I said I'm going to be speaking about global ethical issues. How are we doing on the Loss and Damage Fund as especially given the realities of the storms that we've seen. Horrific. Jamaica, 30% of their GDP wiped out in that storm. We couldn't possibly be waiting for more evidence that the Loss and Damage Fund needs investment. She wrote back that it has less than 1% of what's needed. That is the injustice we've got to be addressing. That is the neocolonialism. Because wherever those funds are being, because we're told the resources are there, but they're clearly not going where they need to go. And those are the real issues that are being centered here by the global ethical stocktake. And that's the colonialism, if you want to use that word. But we have to distinguish it and say it's new because it's these new forms that are being inspired by the patterns of extraction and exclusion.

[Al Gore]

So the money that's needed for the sustainability transition is sometimes the focus is on government to government aid. But in reality, if you look at, you know, last year, 93% of all the new electricity generation installed worldwide was solar and wind and renewables. But it's unevenly distributed. And where did the money come from for that, by the way? 75% of the money came from private investors, but most of that went to the rich countries and not to the developing countries where it's most needed. The emissions reduction that can come from building new solar and wind and batteries and EVs, et cetera, in developing countries reduces emissions. There are three times as many opportunities there. And I know that out of the global ethical stock tag, partly from Africa, partly from North America, came this number one priority that I've heard Marina emphasize, which is let's get back to the priority of phasing out fossil fuels. And this has come up in it came up in the North American stocktake as well. How do we do that? How can the focus on the difference between right and wrong, a focus on the ethics of the decisions we're making, help us get there?

[Karena Gore]

Well, I think it is helping us. IDA V. Well said. The way to right wrongs is to shine the light of truth upon them. And I do sense that even the fact that this light is shining is making a difference. I mean we know there are a lot of fossil fuel lobbyists at this cop more than ever, I'm told. So that hasn't changed. But I do think that knowing that there is an ethical lens is itself has an effect. And I would say that, you know, yes, ethics is essentially the difference between right and wrong and the implications for our behavior as individuals and collectives. And it is most powerful when there is a deeply felt and more and more widely shared sense of right and wrong that's out of step with both laws and social norms. And most if I could if I.

[Al Gore]

Could interrupt briefly, this is Corinna's become one of my principal teachers, by the way, over the last 10 years that she's been doing this. And so when you look at just I'm sorry to interrupt you, but this difference between the general understanding of right and wrong as it has evolved, the difference between that and what the laws and policies tell us is right and wrong, we saw that in the civil rights movement, we saw that in anti apartheid and now we're seeing it in the climate issue.

[Karena Gore]

Yeah. So one of the things that we have to face up to is that most of what is causing the climate crisis is perfectly legal and even socially encouraged.

[Elise Hu]

Right.

[Karena Gore]

So.

[Al Gore]

And financially subsidized.

[Karena Gore]

And financially subsidized is a reflection of those things. So it's not. It's also important, I think there's a concept from ethics that I think is useful here from structural evil. This woman, Cynthia Mo Labada, who is at Union Theological Seminary, drawing on the work of. Sorry to be so academic of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who was at Union and he actually went back to his native Germany to oppose Hitler back during the Third Reich and was executed by the Nazis. So he has some moral authority as well as having been this theologian. And so she talks about the elements of structural evil. One of the key characteristics is that it easily masquerades as good. So when you look at why fossil fuel development continues to be in there, it's because they make a moral claim. They don't, you know, abandon the idea of moral claim. They say it's for development, it's for ending energy poverty. It's for, and this is so dissonant with the facts that as we know them, that we have the renewable energy capability. People have worked very hard, including yourself, on getting that financing, getting that technology up to speed and so on. So it's becoming untenable to make that false moral claim that somehow this fossil fuel development and continuing that is going to be good for the world, but they're still trying and which makes the global ethical stocktake all the more important. So I think that bringing this lens and bringing this modality and as it came up, I can say in the North America dialogue, it came up in several ways. One of the ways it did was that Robert Bullard, who was from, as I said, in the environmental justice movement, who was in that 17 principles, it was the very last thing he said in his thing. He said just basically stop the fossil fuels. He said, this is really the main thing to do. And it came up in the idea of fossil fuel Non Proliferation Treaty from Sapporo Berman. It came up from David Suzuki and Fletcher Harper to get rid of the lobbyists and the cop. It came up in many ways. So there's no way with the President of the COP sitting there and the leadership and also Selwyn Hart, the representative of the Secretary General of the United nations, who we should acknowledge, Antonio Guterres has been a voice of moral clarity for really, I think, an extraordinary leader.

[Al Gore]

Yes, I agree.

[Karena Gore]

And he was represented By Selwyn Hart who said, look, fossil fuel companies are making record profits right now. It's not as if they're just doing all right financially. I mean, it's actually morally obscene. And so there has to be a way in which it's human perception that needs to change. And to do that, we have to look at what drives human perception. And, and that is values. It is the way we communicate. You know, there's so many aspects of this stocktake. We just started it, so we're just learning how to do it. But it's also drawing from the deepest impulses and wells of human wisdom and culture. So when you invite those people in, indigenous peoples, faith leaders, you know, people that are poets and musicians, people really know how to do this. It's kind of a different skill set than data science, you know, and we deserve as human species and we owe each other and future generations all of what human intelligence has to offer. You know, it really is as if the intelligence of our species is on trial right now. And we aren't going to make it unless we draw from those other forms of intelligence. And this is also a way to do that.

[Elise Hu]

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[Al Gore]

So in the ethical stock take how do we best understand the truth about the impacts of this systemic crisis? And I want to turn to you Angira Because Africa is suffering so many of the impacts of the climate crisis in your native Kenya. I was struck by the fact that there are 300,000 refugees already in tent camps in Kenya, some from the civil violence in Sudan and the Hornet Africa, which itself has been driven by the droughts and the food access crisis. The climate crisis has worsened, but the projections of temperature increases and humidity increases that may make more areas physiologically unlivable. How do we best understand the way to deal with those impacts? I'm sure you're hearing it from your fellow Kenyans and as an African leader for the whole continent, you're seeing it all over Africa.

[Wanjira Maathai]

Absolutely. In fact, that was a really strong feature of the Africa stocktake. The fact that African science and African led science and knowledge, indigenous knowledge and indigenous wisdom is called upon right now. Why? Because food systems that were resilient to some of the worst and most deepest extremes of climate are the ones that will see us through as the food basket gets more challenged. We have supply chains that are coming from so far away when we already know that we have food systems locally that dealt with extreme events. Food systems that helped water systems recover and trees and vegetation and restoration methodologies that were used to restore landscapes. We had cultural traditions that were about caring for each other in times of difficulty. And those are the ones that were centered by a lot of the leadership who are local community leaders, women like Hindu, women like Cecile Jabet who are mobilizing women to rediscover orphaned crops and orphaned foods, traditional methods of cooking and processing food that don't rely on modern technology. These are the real investments in resilience that we are seeing at the local level. Because you Know, one of the most important things is the climate crisis ultimately is local, and the solutions that will make a difference are local, too. So we are really looking at that and those who are centered. One of the women who spoke from Zambia said, we actually have 90% of the investments in science on Africa are not by African scientists, invested in African science, but not by African scientists. So investing in local knowledge, local knowledge systems, is one of the biggest outcomes of the values we need to center.

[Al Gore]

Your mother, Wangari, who I had the privilege of knowing as a dear friend, is known for planting trees and the Green Belt movement. And you have brilliantly led that movement onward. But she's also been known for promoting the use of local seed varieties in village gardens, to rely on plant varieties that have stood the test of time, that are well adapted to each particular region. And she taught mainly women, but all the villagers to create a sustainable food supply in there. But now in Kenya, as in many places around the world, the large seed companies like the. I can't remember the exact percentage. More than two thirds of all the seeds are controlled by three companies. And these laws have been passed that actually now make it illegal to save the seeds that the villagers have been relying on. And I understand the reasons for it. And the old way of thinking decades ago was, well, the green revolution has really helped to fight hunger. And there's a lot of truth to that. But with the climate crisis worsening, the food challenges, these local seed varieties become even more valuable. First of all, Kenya. But how is Africa dealing with this?

[Wanjira Maathai]

Well, that's also why we had the Africa Foods and Seed Sovereignty alliance centered at the Ethical stocktake, because this is a very serious issue. You know, the wisdom, the genius of the Green Belt movement was really not even to teach women. Women already knew. It's to remind them that their wisdom is actually incredibly important for this moment. That do not allow anybody to come and tell you that this is other than the best technology in the world. That was the genius of the movement. It was reminding us to invest in our own seed systems, that sharing seed from one farmer to the other was the only way to get the best possible seed. I remember when my mother was asked by the Ministry of Environment, how could women who have no diplomas be planting trees? You need a diploma to plant a tree. And she said, you don't need a diploma. Then she said, you can call my women, women foresters without diplomas because they were generating better quality planting material than the forest department was. Why? Because they look at the trees and the ones they like the best ones, they invest, they pick the seeds, they plant them, they have 100% germination. The ones that came from the government center, 60%. They don't germinate at all sometimes. And these foresters without diplomas were the heart of a movement that now has deep confidence and is fighting that very policy that farmers cannot share seed. So no, we had that. We have an army of people and farmers who are refusing to be convinced that some seed from somewhere else is better than the one they know.

[Al Gore]

Ah, yeah, well, well said. Well said.

As a footnote, I just want to note that your mom also did have a diploma as the first woman PhD in East Africa. But so she, she had an authority in speaking to these others that they could not ignore so easily. So the relationship between nature and climate. Corinna, one of the lessons I've learned from you is embodied in a quote from Thomas Berry that you taught me. The universe is not a collection of objects, it is a communion of subjects. So it's often the case when we are working on the climate crisis that some people say, well, we need to give equal focus on the crisis of the sixth Great Extinction, the rises in nature, they're actually intimately connected. And most climate advocates understand that this has also come up in the global ethical stocktake, Correct?

[Karena Gore]

Absolutely. So really, one other aspect of ethics I find compelling is just how you see a problem, whether you look at cause and effect in a clear way. So you could use the word karma from the Indic traditions to think about this as well, the cause and effect. We've all been around climate conversations that are mainly about effect. Right. And I don't mean to disparage adaptation as a field. Obviously, it's incredibly important. So when I say that, I mean something slightly different, but as if there's nothing we can really do to stop this from happening. And so how are we going to cope with it and how are we going to put the band aids on it and. And so on. But obviously, in any situation, and especially as we've heard people say, like, this is a crisis that we need to look at the roots, right? Not just the leaves. And so looking at what is the root cause on the material plane, I like to think about it the way that Gus Speth has forwarded and you know Gus well, and as do you, a great thinker about two modern megatrends. So if we think about how recent this is, right, in our species, in Earth history, that we've been living this way, the modern megatrends are pollution and depletion essentially, so pollution into that thin shell of atmosphere that is the sky and depletion of the carbon sinks, which is also of course, habitat for other species as well as for human beings. And so either one of those things would have an imbalance. To do both of them at an increasing pace and scale in the past several hundred years is what's gotten us into this, this mess. But that's the material plane. So what is the deeper level of cause? Why are we doing that? And fundamentally it's the illusion that we are separate from the rest of nature that is the deepest level of cause. And we are having this wake up call that we're not. And we can, we can read it in and know it in different ways. But, but one of the things is that other living beings are our relatives, as indigenous people would say. It's not just a set of objects or resources for us to consume and extract from for our economies. It's actually our relatives in an interdependent web of life. Our food is other living beings. That's what the food is. I mean, it sounds so silly sometimes talking about this because it is obvious, but we've been so conditioned out of it in modern society. And so I don't like to think about those crises as different biodiversity and climate, because the root cause is the same. And you know, there are different ways. I've heard some people say, well, I really care mainly about human beings. I want to center human beings. It's important to realize, of course, that, you know, human rights, you're dealing with people around the world who have been dehumanized out of being respected and treated as if they are in another classification. And that of course, I know there's a great deal of important regard that we have to pay there. But the idea that in indigenous, you know, cosmologies that even with the food that is eaten, whether it's the salmon for the Winnam and Wintu people, or the buffalo for the Lakota Dakota, Nakota people, the, the Great Buffalo Nation, Teotoyate, the ways in which the Gwich', in, the caribou, the food source, is the most sacred animal, it's. You eat something but you revere it and you take care of it, you take care of its habitat and home, that type of deep connection to other species, it doesn't mean that you're living in a kind of covenant and that way of thinking. And of course, being here in Brazil, in this place that is so deeply nurtured and nourished and fed with the indigenous and even mucharao, the word that they're using for this cop 30 as a call to come together in collective action. We need to remember that, that mindset, that way of thinking, where we regard other species of life as this is their home. It's not just canary in the coal mine, although there's some people that might like to think of that. And that works, whatever works, that if we see that the animals are affected, so will we be. So we better watch out for that. But it's deeper than that. It's that we are. We're in this community of life. So I think it's a. It's actually far from competing. I think it's actually the doorway through which we can walk into the next phase.

[Al Gore]

Wow. Okay, so I'm going to put one final question to the two of you about the future of the global ethical stocktake. A lot of people are now saying this should become a permanent part of the COP process going forward. And my understanding is that your leader, Marina Silva, is now proposing that that be the case. What should be the future of the global ethical stock tank?

[Wanjira Maathai]

You know, the truth is, Marina, as I said, Minister Marina, in her wisdom and of course courage, set this reset for us. But taking it forward has to be all our responsibility. And what that means is that whatever work we do every single day is to consciously think about what the moral values and ethical lenses we are called to think about. So I'll give you an example for us at the World Resources Institute, where we work on, yes, nature, climate, people making bets on cities and how they evolve and grow, making bets on how we protect forests and restore forests, but again, centering people. Because it is lives, livelihoods, cultures and identities that are the why. These are the why we do this work, that we do that with the absolute consciousness that it is not because it's work we have to do, but it is because everything we depend on is anchored in our values towards others. And I think the harmony of other living things was at the core that, at the very foundation. If we do not honor the contract to each other, then we will not see the phase out of fossil fuels. We will not see the crisis ended in the way that it needs to be. That actually we have in the African ethical stocktake, we have this concept when we welcomed the Brazilians, the South African ancestral blessing in the very beginning evoked this prayer of Ubuntu, very similar. I am because you are. And then we heard about another cultural tradition. My out breath is your in breath. I mean, there are so Many traditions that call on us to remember that we cannot but be connected and we our wisdom. I loved what Karina said about our intelligence as a species being on trial. Because the truth of the matter is, with everything we know, we surely shouldn't be making the sort of decisions we make. So everywhere, in every room, if we continue to make sure that our negotiators, our governments, are centering the Global Ethical stocktake, mention it in every opportunity you get. We would love to hear from you what happens in those rooms and how those negotiators can take action. But we are reminded that we are here. The Paris agreement was thanks to people pushing and insisting that we center the common but differentiated responsibility agenda. We can do it, but we all have to do it.

[Al Gore]

Corinna, what do you think the future ought to be for the global ethical stock take?

[Karena Gore]

For my part, I think it should continue. I think one of the things I'd like to say about it is that there were these five questions that they put forward. There was one underlying question, and if you look at the official COP 30 Brazil teams page of Global Ethical Stocktake, it begins with like, there's one basic question. If we know what, what we need to do to face the climate crisis, why are we not doing it? But then there are five underneath there and they really thought about it and it went through different phrasings and of course it's translated into English and so on. And. But they're interesting what the questions are. So I won't take up too much time by reading them all. But I just want to say one of the things I really like about this approach is, you know, a lot of times people are very weary of how we talk about these problems, right? Because it seems like lots of finger pointing and clubbing over the head and then this optimism or pessimism, all this kind of stuff. This is questions that are actually quite disarming in their sort of overview approach. The second one is why do we maintain production and consumption models that harm the most vulnerable and jeopardize the 1.5 mission? Why do we maintain production and consumption levels? Da, da, da. Well, there's an answer to that, actually. There are lots of answers to that. It has to do with that we're actually, it's not only about greed. It's partially that, but it's partially that people are asked to be consumers. We measure success and tell people they're doing well. If they hoard a bunch of stuff like why don't we look at these social norms and actually ponder them instead of just repeating them and going through the motions of them. Well, why is that? Well, in part because the global economy is the thing of jobs and that's how people get. So we're really looking deep, deeply at the systems and structures that underlie our modern civilization. But it's being done carefully and in a way that invites in joy and space for grief when necessary and so on. So I think it's incredibly healthy and necessary. The other one I was going to mention in this context was the third one, which is what can be done to ensure wealthy countries accelerate the transition and provide finance to the most vulnerable. So that is in there. It's not the common but differentiated responsibilities and so on. And I think that looking at where people are calling for systemic change, different voices, different ways of communicating, it must continue. I don't know exactly how the system works as to where it lives and so on and who does it. But I'm here to serve and especially if I get to do so alongside Wanjira and Marina is a great leader of this. And of course it will be many people. It won't be a select few, it will be many people. And the self organized dialogues and the way that it catalyzes and going forward I think will be a movement, it's called, you know, they've talked about a movement of movements and that's a good way to think about the global ethical stocktake.

[Elise Hu]

That was Al Gore, Wanjira Maathai and Karena Gore in conversation at the TED countdown house at Copper 30 in Belem, Brazil in 2025.

If you're curious about Ted's curation, find out [e-mail] curation guidelines. And that's it for today. Ted Talks Daily is part of the TED Audio Collective. This talk was fact checked by the TED Research team and produced and edited by our team, Martha Estefanos, Oliver Friedman, Brian Greene, Lucy Little and Tansika Sangmarnivong. This episode was mixed by Lucy Little. Additional support from Emma Tobner and Daniela Ballaro. I'm Elise Hu. I'll be back tomorrow with a fresh idea for your feed. Thanks for listening.

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[Karena Gore]

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