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- [00:01]
Eugenio Derbes
Hi, it's Eugenio Derbes. Did you know that with Boost Mobile, you can cut your phone bill in.
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Jodi Avrigan
Half this tax season?
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Elise Hu
Yes, half.
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Jodi Avrigan
Buy six months of service and get six months free. That's a full year of service paying half.
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Eugenio Derbes
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Jodi Avrigan
Visit your Boost Store today. Requires upfront payment, taxes and fees. Extra terms and exclusions apply. Visit boostmobile.com for full terms.
- [00:31]
Laura Popano
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- [03:08]
Eugenio Derbes
Been 50 years since Title IX passed in the United States? Or that in 2022, the U.S. soccer Federation announced that players on the men's and women's teams would would get equal pay for the first time in history?
- [03:21]
Jodi Avrigan
What about this one?
- [03:22]
Eugenio Derbes
This year, 2023, for the first time ever, the women's March Madness title game will air on network TV with a big pregame show and everything, just like the men. Thinking about those milestones, my reaction is, gosh, it's about freaking time. And yes, they represent genuine progress that we should celebrate. We are expanding our notions of who who gets to play sports and what kind of resources they get to do it. But of course, these milestones didn't happen without a fight. Many, many fights. And looking around, it's not hard to.
- [03:56]
Jodi Avrigan
See that there are still a lot.
- [03:57]
Eugenio Derbes
Of fights happening about gender in sports. I mean, just look at the debate around trans athletes, the latest chapter in the long fight around who gets to participate. I look at that debate and if I'm being honest, I feel a little overwhelmed. But I also keep coming back to a core idea. We can, and we should find more ways for more people to participate in sports. Not just because I think everybody should get to participate, but also because doing so means we get to know amazing new athletes, we get new styles of play and new records and new opportunities to push the envelope about what our bodies can do, which is what sports is all about, right? And as I started talking to people who think a lot about gender and sports, I heard something that really put this question into a new light for me. It came from Laura Popano, a journalist who co authored a book called Playing with the why Separate Is Not Equal in Sports.
- [04:56]
Raha Mozaffari
Transgender athletes have created so much of a challenge for a system that is set up as the most sex segregated social system we have in the country. I mean, it's more sex segregated than the military.
- [05:11]
Eugenio Derbes
Basically. What Laura is saying is that there are all these specific questions, including the one about trans participation, but behind all of them is the same root gender segregation.
- [05:23]
Raha Mozaffari
So when I look at the controversy over transgender athletes, I don't look at it as the transgender athletes being the problem. I look at, I look at it as the problem of having set up sports because we decide how it works, right? We decide what the rules are, we decide who plays, we decide how it's scored. We decide, you know, all those pieces.
- [05:47]
Eugenio Derbes
The debate about trans athletes stems from the same origin as all the other conversations about gender and sports. At some point in the past, we decided that they should be gender segregated. But why? And as the rest of the world is thinking more expansively about gender, and I really do think it is, why is sports lagging behind? And what would happen if we did start to move away from gender as some fundamental, immutable divide in sports? Well, I think there are some really cool possibilities. My name is Jody Avergan and this is Goodsport from the TED Audio Collective. Today's episode, a history of gender segregation in sports and a humble proposal for how we might start moving past it. Here we go.
- [06:54]
Laura Popano
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- [07:55]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
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- [08:57]
Eugenio Derbes
If we're talking about dividing sports by gender, maybe let's start with some possible alternatives. Because it does seem to me that there are all sorts of ways that you can categorize athletes to make sure that play is safe, fair, and competitive.
- [09:15]
Jodi Avrigan
Take wrestling, for example. I have a buddy who wrestled competitively who pointed out to me that in that sport, one way you go about categorizing people is by weight class. Maybe that's a way we could go about it. Or think about the Paralympics where they get really specific about different people's functional abilities. Paralympic skiing, for example, has a standing division, a sitting division, and a visually impaired division. Smarter people than me could probably suggest a bunch more ways to do it. But the point is, we don't have to segregate sports by gender. And to put a finer point on it, maybe we shouldn't. Because as our society's understanding of gender has gotten more expansive and generally I do think it has, sports has largely lagged behind.
- [10:03]
Raha Mozaffari
So we have created a very gender divided institution which just doesn't serve the reality of our population. It doesn't serve the broader purpose of athletics, in my opinion.
- [10:19]
Jodi Avrigan
Yeah, no, I mean, I think we're sort of like generally as a society in agreement that we have to address these things head on in almost every sphere. And then we walk right up to sports and people freak out.
- [10:31]
Raha Mozaffari
Well, I mean, it's. Sports are physical and men are supposed to be physically supreme. And this messes with that. I mean, it's. There are so many assumptions that have gone into the structure of the way sport works, and we, the idea that we need to revisit those assumptions is scary.
- [10:54]
Jodi Avrigan
One of the reasons that people find it scary to confront this stuff is because sports doesn't just reflect a strict gender binary, but also a gender hierarchy. Men above women. Just look around and you'll see it more, pay more prestige, more attention to men's sports than women's.
- [11:11]
Raha Mozaffari
If we have set up sport to be deeply sex segregated and segregated in such a way that it really is a celebration of men's, you know, gender hierarchy, that's a problem. And it is a problem that we still have.
- [11:31]
Jodi Avrigan
And Laura says this has a long history.
- [11:35]
Raha Mozaffari
Modern sports were created, you know, for socializing reasons.
- [11:41]
Jodi Avrigan
So let's go all the way back to the Industrial Revolution, the time when modern sports were invented. Bit Of a history lesson here. Buckle up. The industrial revolution upended society. Manual labor turned into factory work. People moved to big cities. Huge changes, disruption, a feeling of instability.
- [12:00]
Raha Mozaffari
There was a lot of, you know, confusion about how people should be. The changes that were happening, the urbanization. There were concerns that because we had vehicles that people would lose, you know, use of their legs. I mean, it sounds funny now, but there was a lot of anxiety.
- [12:20]
Jodi Avrigan
This is the moment when modern, organized sports were born, in part as a way to reintroduce physicality as people moved away from manual labor and provide some order in this brave new world, some continuity with the old ways.
- [12:34]
Raha Mozaffari
So one of the ways of combating that was to really enforce this idea of separate spheres for men and women. The women's sphere. Women was the home, the moral upbringing of children, all of those things. The men's was the public sphere. And there was a lot of attention to keeping those spheres separate.
- [12:56]
Jodi Avrigan
That separation has been around for a long time, of course, and modern sports doubled down on it. Sports emerged as an arena for men. Women were not to participate, or if they did not, in any real competitive way.
- [13:09]
Raha Mozaffari
You can look at it in the dress, right, or women's early tennis dress Were these long, onerous kinds of outfits that I don't know how one actually could move in them. And maybe that was the point.
- [13:22]
Jodi Avrigan
When women did participate in sports, it didn't challenge those gender roles. It often reinforced them. Like when women started playing competitive basketball in the early 1900s, there was a.
- [13:34]
Raha Mozaffari
Lot of concern that they were looking too masculine, and there would be these kind of beauty pageants in the middle of the game. So you had the queen of the court, who was chosen as a way of offsetting the fact that they were playing ferociously when it wasn't halftime.
- [13:52]
Jodi Avrigan
Take a second to imagine that, if you can, you're playing basketball, sprinting, sweating, and at halftime, you have to run off the court, not for a stretch or some water, but to put on some other outfit, probably change your hairdo, and then come back on the court to parade around in a beauty pageant. And then he has to go back to the locker room, change, and finish the game. Absurd, right? But Laura says it all reflects gender norms that are still going strong today. Number one, inferiority.
- [14:21]
Raha Mozaffari
The fundamental belief that women are physically inferior. Second is injury. The worry, the paternalistic need, desire to protect women from getting injured. And third is immorality. It was just wrong. And these things have had a tremendous impact on the way sports are set up and organized these days.
- [14:45]
Jodi Avrigan
We're not forcing WNBA players to slip into heels during halftime. But Laura says there are still a lot of rules that keep women's sports subordinate to men's. Like, why in the world do women's tennis players only play three sets instead of the five that men do? Or why is men's lacrosse full contact? The women's version of the game is not, though. Anyone who's watched or played knows how physical it can really get. And now they're not wearing helmets. There's a ton of these examples.
- [15:12]
Raha Mozaffari
I mean, there's been a long history of creating kind of these rules where the result is that the men are doing just a little bit more or a little bit longer. And that's not about women's inability to do the same distance. It's about men being, you know, the real version and the women's version being the second class version.
- [15:36]
Jodi Avrigan
In other words, we've designed sports to make it look like men are just more sporty, and we've gone a step further. We've even changed the design of sports when that image is threatened.
- [15:48]
Raha Mozaffari
I interviewed someone who won in rifle Ray in the Olympics, and she was given the silver medal. She explained to me how she had actually won the gold medal, but was given the silver medal and they were separated.
- [16:01]
Jodi Avrigan
Laura's talking about Margaret Murdoch, who competed in the 1976 Olympic Games in Montreal. Back then, men and women competed together in this event, and Margaret Murdoch tied a man for first place. But because misogyny is real, the judges decided to break the tie by awarding her the silver medal. And by the 1984 Olympics, you guessed it, there was a new rule. Men and women would compete separately in that event.
- [16:27]
Raha Mozaffari
That tells you everything you need to know about what's really going on here. So the history of and practice of organized competitive sport is so riddled with purposeful biases that go beyond physical differences. Yes, there are physical differences, but you know what? There are some guys that I'm better at tennis than. Right?
- [16:51]
Jodi Avrigan
I believe it me. Over time, over decades and decades, these rules, which we invented, become something like fact. Clearly, men are more athletic than women. Why else would there be these rules? So we need to keep these rules to make up for the difference between men and women, and round and round we go. In light of that, when I hear things like women are fundamentally inferior athletes or women don't want to be as physical or they'll get injured, when I hear those stories about a high school boys team beating a pro women's team in basketball or soccer, I wonder how Much of that is something that's inherent about gender. And how much of that is a product of women being told they aren't fast, they aren't physical, that they're going to get injured. Laura Popano has a story about this, about how those larger forces come crashing down to the individual level. It's from her time growing up as a young girl who played baseball with the boys.
- [17:56]
Raha Mozaffari
I remember one game where I stole a base. I moved on the motion of the pitcher, which in that league was what the rule was. I stole the base. And everyone was appalled. And my team, the other team, they just didn't think that a girl should be able to steal a base. And they. I just remember standing on second base and people saying, go back, go back. And I just remember crossing my arms and just sitting there listening.
- [18:24]
Jodi Avrigan
This is a children's baseball game. The stakes could not be lower. I mean, the whole point should be to get out there, move around, have fun. But instead, it became about trying to put Laura in her place.
- [18:36]
Raha Mozaffari
You know, maybe I wasn't the best player, but I wasn't the worst player on the team either, and I wanted to participate. And I think that that's what we go back to. Whether we're talking about transgender athletes or we're talking about, you know, kindergartners, or we're talking about recreational players. People want to participate.
- [18:53]
Jodi Avrigan
Yeah.
- [18:54]
Raha Mozaffari
They want to compete.
- [18:57]
Eugenio Derbes
But after being told over and over that a certain space isn't for them, what do you think's gonna happen?
- [19:04]
Raha Mozaffari
I think one of the biggest problems in the history of women and women's leadership and women's athletics and women in general, is self censorship, is that it is very easy to get to a point where you don't need to be told that you can't. You decide ahead of time that you can't, that you're not able to do this.
- [19:32]
Jodi Avrigan
See, there are other places in society where we've kind of established that when people are told that they are inherently not good at something, their performance gets weaker as a result. There's even a name for this, the Pygmalion effect. In Laura's baseball experience, she was able to push through those messages that she couldn't or shouldn't play hard. But I can imagine there's a lot of people who probably had a similar experience and didn't. So hopefully you're with me on this basic idea that in sports, we see larger gender problems reflected and reinforced, and hopefully you'll see that maybe there's a path forward for one if we understand that we made sports this way, then we can also see that we can remake them too. We can change them so that they line up with our values and our goals, so that they do reflect the reality of our population.
- [20:23]
Raha Mozaffari
So the essence of sport is really good competition. And at a moment when the rest of society is challenging that and breaking it apart, it's time to do that in sports.
- [20:35]
Jodi Avrigan
Absolutely. The question is how?
- [20:51]
Laura Popano
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- [22:08]
Eugenio Derbes
So, alright, there is a fair argument in some cases for continuing to segregate sports by gender, at least right now. As Laura pointed out, it can lead to meaningful differences between men and women when it comes to athletic performance, especially at the elite level. But hopefully, over the course of this episode, we've started to make a case that there's some version of sports where this isn't the only meaningful difference. That maybe there's a world where gender doesn't have to serve the role it's played, dividing athletes along lines that have all sorts of pitfalls. Maybe there are alternatives. So what would that world even look like? Admittedly, this is a very big question, and like we mentioned at the start of the episode, there are a number of directions you could go weight classes in wrestling, the Paralympic model, that new idea that someone smarter than me will come up with. But what I want to focus on for the rest of this episode is something I know really well.
- [23:04]
Jodi Avrigan
Because there are some sports where people of different genders already do play on the same teams, on the same field at the very highest level. And luckily for me, and maybe for you, my sport Ultimate Frisbee is one of them. There are men's and women's divisions in the sport, but mixed ultimate is thriving as well. If you don't take it from me, take it from the International Olympic Committee. The IOC has made it clear that the version of ultimate that they're interested in, that could become an Olympic sport someday is the mixed gender version, where teams consist of seven players, at least three of whom are men and three women.
- [23:43]
Unknown
I think it's just, like, really unique. Not many other sports out there at that level that are mixed.
- [23:50]
Jodi Avrigan
That's Raha Mozaffari, one of the top ultimate players in the game right now. She's one of those players who can do it all. She's comfortable gaining receiving yards with big cuts downfield. She can finesse throws, control possession. Yeah, she can kind of do it all.
- [24:04]
Unknown
I pride myself in my versatility. That's always been my strong suit. And I, as a defender, I think those types of players are one of the hardest players to defend.
- [24:19]
Jodi Avrigan
She's right. They are, which is why I mostly played offense. Raha plays for one of the best teams in mixed ultimate, and she loves it.
- [24:26]
Unknown
Discs are coming in faster, slower hanging, more. Separation is different based on individual matches, matchups. There's people, like, poaching off onto different genders, different speed, different size.
- [24:41]
Eugenio Derbes
Again, in my career, I generally played men's ultimate, but I did play a few years of mixed, and I loved it. My team even made the semifinals of the national championships. Thank you very much. To me, mixed ultimate felt like a new version of a sport I loved that I'd thought about a lot and tried to get really good at. And when I first joined a mixed team, it was like, oh, cool. Here's this new puzzle to figure out. As a player and a team, it's the same size field and the same rules of play, but now there's this new dynamic. We'd have strategy meetings and work in practice to figure out how do we take advantage of the unique way this version of the game is structured, because it's not enough to just mix it up and hope it goes right. You have to be intentional about what you're trying to achieve, how it might be different in a way that's better. Otherwise, you might make the same mistake that ultimate made.
- [25:34]
Jodi Avrigan
See, back in the early days of mixed, women were seen almost as a handicap, like the true version of the sport is played by men. And now there's women on the field getting in the way. And the response for many was to ignore them. Just focus on the men.
- [25:50]
Unknown
I remember the style being more geared towards, okay, so here are best players, best athletes, and we're going to try to figure out how to isolate them on the field.
- [26:01]
Jodi Avrigan
I noticed this myself when I played. It was hard not to. On some teams, the men wouldn't pass to the women at all. They'd just be looked off.
- [26:09]
Unknown
And that gets really frustrating. If that happens over and over again, you give up and you're like, hey, I don't know what else I'm supposed to do. I'm doing everything I can. I'm open, but I'm still getting looked off.
- [26:20]
Jodi Avrigan
That's a crappy way to treat women on the field. And it sucks to watch. But Raha's main point is that from a strategy perspective, it's a terrible approach.
- [26:30]
Unknown
If you're a smart defender and you see like, okay, your person is just not involved, you're going to leave them and go impact the field somewhere else.
- [26:39]
Laura Popano
So that's.
- [26:40]
Unknown
As an offensive team, that's a terrible strategy because then you have like extra defenders just guarding where the active part of the play is because they're not engaging all their players. So just basic Frisbee, really.
- [26:53]
Jodi Avrigan
But that's the way it was when things were getting off the ground. All those old hangups about men and women, about categories and gender, they were still very much in play. Take this example from earlier in Raha's career when she had a run in on the field with a guy who desperately needed to listen to this episode.
- [27:11]
Unknown
I was just making like a normal ink cut and all of a sudden I feel like this massive just impact from the side. Like, like a tackle just took me out as I was catching the disc.
- [27:25]
Eugenio Derbes
By the way, ultimate is technically a non contact sport similar to soccer. Sure, there's occasional body contact, but there shouldn't be stuff like what Raha's describing. So she was thrown by the contact. But more than anything in this moment, she saw a deeper dynamic going on. The guy just didn't feel think that a woman would be playing as aggressively as Raha was.
- [27:45]
Unknown
I was so mad. But, you know, I just kind of like stared him down and was like, what the heck was that? And he's like, oh, I didn't realize that you were going to be fast enough to get there.
- [27:55]
Jodi Avrigan
There's that inferiority bias, right?
- [27:57]
Unknown
That just made me more upset. It was like, are you kidding me? Like, do you know who I am? Like, I'm going to catch the disc. If the disc is in front of me, I'M going to go for it with all I can. So that really just rubbed me the wrong way.
- [28:11]
Jodi Avrigan
So, yeah, in mixed, we still have this larger gender problem affecting how individual moments play out. But here's the part where an incident like this can actually move things forward because over time, the community has started to recognize that this is a problem and has started to check itself.
- [28:29]
Unknown
People see these things, right? They don't go unsaid or unseen. So people make comments on Twitter and socials and like, as they should, and say, like, this is not okay. So that actually made that person be intentional about improving and working on that. And I really do think that they did. So that's a good way to learn, right?
- [28:51]
Jodi Avrigan
Over time, that has had a noticeable impact on the way that mixed is played. It's shifted everything from strategy to sportsmanship, and now, as I see it, the division is flourishing. You really saw this clearly at the World Games in 2022, where mixed ultimate was the only version of ultimate on display. To many, it was the best showcase the sport has ever had.
- [29:13]
Unknown
It was really awesome seeing Mosquera pulling a full field at the back of the end zone and seeing, like, the other team have to work all the way up.
- [29:24]
Jodi Avrigan
Okay, folks, we're a little in the weeds with ultimate lingo here. Did you ever think this would be happening to you? But the pull, it's like the kickoff. It's very important you try and pin your opponent deep on their side of the.
- [29:34]
Unknown
It was really cool seeing, like, Sarah Maxdrop just skying a bunch of guys taller than her.
- [29:41]
Jodi Avrigan
Skying, jumping in the air, catching the disc over your opponent. Sarah did a lot of that and.
- [29:46]
Unknown
So many other creative throwers like Finney and Carolyn and Trope just making these, like, incredible catches that she shouldn't.
- [29:56]
Jodi Avrigan
All those players that Raha just name checked, they were the women on the top team. And as I watched them push their teams to victory, it really hit me what a long way Mixed ultimate has come in just a couple decades.
- [30:08]
Unknown
So it was just the all around, like, amazing display of athleticism and a unique style with men and women on the same field together and working together.
- [30:18]
Eugenio Derbes
What I hear Raha saying is we have to learn to play with others, no matter who they are. It's a lesson I've learned over and over in sports. I've been a jerk and I've been a good teammate. The latter feels way better on the field and off. And it's not just about feeling good. Rethinking gender lines can have a real impact on and off the field, if you're trying to be a successful team in the truest sense, I think that means working hard to be more inclusive and welcoming to everyone. The more people feel welcome, important, seen, the better they'll perform, the better the team will perform. The best mixed teams, the ones that feel like they give us a glimpse of where sports could be headed, are the ones that include everyone. I think that message is pretty clear at this point.
- [31:11]
Unknown
Overall, I think it's been great. I think it's brought the community together. Like you said, it's just become a lot more cohesive. Like we're all trying to be more inclusive and listen to each other. And yeah, it has been good.
- [31:26]
Jodi Avrigan
Sports mirroring a better path, maybe even modeling it. Of course, it's not simple. Progress could be slow. Mixed ultimate is still working through those entrenched gender dynamics. But if sports has been a way of reinforcing gender segregation for what generations? These latest debates have been happening for like a blink of an eye. What we're seeing is the first few steps in a new direction. And so what I want to leave you with is if we let go of how unthinkable it would feel to get rid of gender segregation in sports and just sit with that idea for a bit, maybe what we'll find is not some tidy little solution that immediately sets everything right, but instead an opportunity, the space to try things and fail and maybe eventually land on something that.
- [32:17]
Eugenio Derbes
Works better than just works. We can find something new and inspiring and plain old fun. We gotta do this more often.
- [32:36]
Jodi Avrigan
Next time on Goodsport. What happens when suddenly you can't play your sport anymore?
- [32:42]
Unknown
Really?
- [32:43]
Raha Mozaffari
It was like, oh my gosh, I'm in survival mode. What can I do, you know, because I suffered the death of my athletic career.
- [32:50]
Jodi Avrigan
Retiring, aging and finding your next thing.
- [32:56]
Eugenio Derbes
Good Sport is brought to you by.
- [32:57]
Jodi Avrigan
The TED Audio Collective. It's hosted by me, Jodi Avrigan. The show is produced by ted. This episode was written and produced by Isabel Carter.
- [33:07]
Eugenio Derbes
Our team includes Camille Peterson, Ponce Ruch.
- [33:10]
Jodi Avrigan
Sarah Nix, Jimmy Gutierrez, Michelle Quint, Banban Chang and Roxanne. Hi Lash. Jake Gorski is our sound designer and mix engineer. Fact checking by Hana Matsudaira. Special thanks this episode to Charlie Eisenhood and Dr. Cherie Becker.
- [33:26]
Eugenio Derbes
We want to hear from you questions, ideas, reactions.
- [33:29]
Jodi Avrigan
Our email is goodsportded.com or you can.
- [33:33]
Eugenio Derbes
Find me on social media and yell at me there.
- [33:35]
Jodi Avrigan
One last thing, if you're game. If you like this episode, hit play in your podcast player and text it to a friend.
- [33:42]
Eugenio Derbes
Even better, text it to a friend who might not think that they are into sports. Who knows, they might be into this show. Thanks again for listening to GoodSport. My name is Jody Avragan. See you soon.
- [33:58]
Unknown
Foreign.
- [34:10]
Elise Hu
To get people excited about Boost Mobile's new nationwide 5G network, we're offering unlimited talk, text and data for $25 a month.
- [34:17]
Jodi Avrigan
Forever.
- [34:17]
Elise Hu
Even if you have a baby.
- [34:18]
Laura Popano
Even if your baby has a baby.
- [34:20]
Elise Hu
Even if you grow old and wrinkly and you start repeating yourself.
- [34:22]
Raha Mozaffari
Even if you start repeating yourself yourself.
- [34:24]
Elise Hu
Even if you're on your deathbed and you need to make one last call or text, right? Or text the long lost son you abandoned at birth, you'll still get unlimited.
- [34:31]
Raha Mozaffari
Talk, text and Data for just $25 a month with Boost Mobile Forever.
- [34:34]
Elise Hu
After 30 gigabytes, customers may experience slower speeds. Customers will pay $25 a month as long as they remain active on the Boost Unlimited plan. Moreover, this podcast is brought to you by Wise, the app for doing things in other currencies, Sending or spending money abroad Hidden fees may be taking a cut. That's why you should use Wise. Get the currency you need where you need it for less. Tap to pay in pesos in Cancun, easily move pounds to London. From paying overseas bills to sending money to family back home, you have up to 40 currencies in the palm of your hand. Wise always gives you the real exchange rate like the one you usually see on Google, which means you'll spend less on fees and more of your money gets where you need it to be. Join millions of customers managing their money with Wise. Download the Wise app today or visit wise.com Terms and Conditions apply.
- [35:18]
Laura Popano
This episode is brought to you by Mejuri. Mejuri does fine jewelry differently. They're all about buying for yourself, where.
- [35:24]
Raha Mozaffari
You decide the occasion.
- [35:26]
Laura Popano
Everything is handcrafted with quality, craftsmanship and responsible sourcing in mind. So these are pieces you can feel good about in more ways than one. Plus, there are so many designs you can mix and match to create a stack for every look. Shop in store, in app or online@majuri.com today.