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- [00:04]
A
You're listening to TED Talks Daily where we bring you new ideas to spark your curiosity every day. I'm your host, Elise Hu, Writer, linguist and podcaster Amanda Montel says we are living through the cultiest era on record as the hardwired cognitive biases that helped early humans survive brush up against social media and digital communication.
- [00:25]
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Studies show that social media has damaged our mental health and our attention spans on all the while making cultish leaders mega accessible. Who needs compounds when you have comment sections?
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A
She exposes three sneaky language tactics that cults use to influence us for better or for worse, revealing why none of us are as cult proof as we'd like to think and stick around. After the talk, Amanda and I got together to go beyond her talk to discuss what led her to the study of cults, the role of AI in these cultier times, and what to do if we think someone we know and love may be in a culture. That's all coming up right after a short break from our sponsors. This episode is brought to you by Grow Therapy. Fresh air, longer days, a chance to reset this season, let therapy be part of your spring cleaning. Clearing mental clutter, shaking off stuckness, and building something better. Grow Therapy helps you get there. Therapy can be a space to slow down, reflect and make sense of what you're carrying, whether that's spread work, stress, relationship tension, anxiety, or just that feeling you're stretched too thin. Grow connects you with thousands of independent, licensed therapists across the US Offering virtual and in person sessions, including on nights and weekends. Whatever challenges you're facing, Grow Therapy is here to help. Grow accepts over 100 insurance plans, including Medicaid in some states. Sessions average about $21 with insurance and some pay as little as nothing, depending on their plan. Visit growththerapy.comted to get started. That's growththerapy.com Ted availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. This episode is brought to you by Bombus. Lately, I've been thinking about the small things that make a big difference in my day. You know those upgrades you don't realize you needed until you try them? That's exactly what happened with Bombus. I picked up their women's Pima cotton V neck tee, which is what I own, and now I reach for it constantly, whether I'm recording or just doing school pickup. It works. Dress it up with a blazer, keep it casual with jeans. It's that rare piece that adapts to whatever your day throws at you and their base layers. Just game changing. The underwear and tees are so soft and breathable, you'll wonder why you settled for anything less. Here's the best part. Every purchase means an essential clothing item goes to someone experiencing housing insecurity. One purchase equals one don. They've already given over 150 million items. Ready to upgrade your basics? Head over to bombas.com TTD and use code TTD for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O-M-B-A-S.com TTD code TTD at checkout. This episode is brought to you by Duck AI. AI can be incredibly useful, but sometimes it gives me pause to think that my chats might be saved somewhere forever. Between work stuff and embarrassing personal questions, a lot of us share more with AI chatbots than we realize, and information shouldn't come at the cost of your Privacy. That's why DuckDuckGo built Duck AI so you can chat privately with the same AIs you might already be using, like ChatGPT or Claude, and protect your data from hackers, scammers and data hungry companies. There's no account required, it's completely free. Plus it's from DuckDuckGo, known for protecting your data, not collecting it, so you can chat freely without worrying about your AI conversations getting stored or exploited. If you want to use AI without giving up your privacy, visit Duck AI Talk today. That's Duck AI Talk, a private way to chat with AI from DuckDuckGo, where AI is always optional and private. And now, our TED Talk of the Day.
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Hi everyone.
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Or shall I say greetings followers and settle in, because I'm about to share with you a true story about one of the most zealous cults in the world. This story takes place on the group's holiest day. Acolytes arrived at dawn, some having crossed oceans and sacrificed life savings in order to get there. They came bearing hand beaded offerings inscribed with sacred Numbers 22, 1389.
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C
But this, my friends, is not the
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story of an apocalyptic sect on a faraway compound. No, this was a Taylor Swift concert.
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C
I said it.
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B
The talismans are friendship bracelets, the biblical books are known as eras, and the charismatic leader is a billionaire pop priestess who, let's be honest, could probably rule the free world if she really wanted to. Now don't get me wrong, I'm a deep dyed red album girly. I'm not here to call out swifties as cult followers.
- [05:25]
C
No, I wouldn't dare. But I'm an author and a cultural
- [05:30]
B
commentator with a background in linguistics. And I'm Here to share how we're all susceptible to cultish thinking for better and for worse, and our everyday vocabularies are evidence of our devotion. I'm here to share what to pay attention to, what to listen for, so that as we move through these inevitably culty times, we can stay both enchanted and empowered. Now my fascination with cults is personal. That's because of my dad. As a teenager he was forced to join Synanon, a 70s California compound with matching overalls and a traumatizing truth telling ritual called the Game. But my dad escaped, became a neuroscientist, and brought up a nosy kid who became obsessed with understanding how to identify cultish influence in everyday life. As I got older, I couldn't help but notice that the same language tactics that my dad described in Synanon could be found kind of everywhere.
- [06:32]
C
Like in my high school theater program
- [06:35]
B
and in the wellness industry and on my social media feed. That's how I came to study the cultish spectrum degrees of influence, none of which start out with LSD and Rose, but instead sneakily with words. I want to point out three cultish language tactics to listen for in everyday life. The first is called the thought terminating cliche. Coined in 1961 by the psychiatrist Robert J. Lifton. Thought terminating cliches are zingy stack expressions that are easy to memorize, easy to repeat, and aimed at shutting down independent thinking and questioning. So let's say you're a member of a group and there's a rule that you want to push back against. You might get hit with a phrase like trust the process or it's all in God's plan to shut you down. In Synanon, the phrase act as if effectively meant pretend that you believe until you do. Today, in conspiracy theory type groups, the phrase do your research basically means stop asking me about mine. Next, I want to talk about us versus them. Labels in Synanon, defectors were called splittees. Today you've got your sheeple, your NPCs, your industry plants. When a label makes all of those people seem unilaterally evil and us superior, that's a red flag. And thirdly, I want to mention loaded language, corporate synergistic visionaries, wellness 5D consciousness. At first, emotionally charged buzzwords like this feel like enlightenment. Then one day you wake up and you realize you've completely surrendered your ability to talk and think for yourself. This language works because it plugs straight into our cognitive biases, these deeply ingrained decision making shortcuts that developed in earlier human brains to help us process information from the world around us enough to survive it. But today, mental magic tricks like confirmation bias, the sun cost fallacy, and the halo effect cause us to believe only the information we already agree with, double down on sketchy choices, and worship mortal human beings we've never even met as all knowing deities. This clash between our once useful cognitive biases and the information age is this phenomenon that I've been calling magical overthinking. And it's a problem because studies show that social media has damaged our mental health and our attention spans, all the while making cultish leaders mega accessible. Who needs compounds when you have comment sections?
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Now, I don't say this to freak anyone out.
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I'm just here to point out the difference between awe and indoctrination. And I want to leave us with a few tips to help us do that. First of all, when you find yourself in a space, even a digital one, where you feel really emotionally activated and you're using a lot of buzzwords that make you feel like you're part of a tribe, but you can't really define exactly what you're saying in plain English or why, that's a sign to take a step back and consult other sources. Next, pay attention to exit costs. Healthy groups might make leaving feel awkward, but never apocalyptic or earth shattering. And finally, we can use cult language for good rousing chance rhyming mantras. They can be used to make true information catchy too. I'm not here to take away anyone's friendship bracelets. We need community more now than ever. So I think living in this cultiest era of all time, the goal is not so much to be cult proof, it's to be cult literate.
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A
You follow?
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D
Thank you.
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A
Don't go away just yet. My conversation with Amanda Montel is coming up right after a short break.
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- [11:32]
E
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- [12:09]
A
Amanda, congratulations on your talk.
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C
Oh, thank you.
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A
How do you think your work has evolved through three books and now with your TED Talk?
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C
Oh wow. Well, with my first book I was just shocked and delighted that my career was taking off or like was getting anywhere at all. And so I would say at that point my career was just in a state of imposter syndrome and full flailing. But also incredible enthusiasm to share subjects that may seem kind of niche but had always felt really fascinating and also culturally urgent to me with an audience. And as the years have gone on, I think I've become a little more confident in my voice and more broadly curious and have widened my scope from this kind of hyper specific subject of language and gender to other questions of how language, power, society, pop culture, all these different phenomena that really pique my curiosity interact with one another.
- [13:20]
A
Okay, well, let's dig into your talk cause you share in your talk a little bit about your dad's past and how he was in a cult when he was a teen before he managed to escape. And clearly that story had a huge influence on you. So what sorts of conversations did you have with him growing up about this?
- [13:39]
C
Well, yeah, to set some context, my dad grew up in a cult called Synanon, which was really at its peak during the 1970s and started out as an alternative drug rehabilitation center turned pretty abusive compound. And I grew up on my dad's stories. And you know, my dad, he's the most darling man ever. I mean he's like such a goofball. I think he definitely meets that kind of stereotype of the like sort of absent minded professor, like endearingly so and so, you know, he's not someone who lives in the Past or dwells on his traumas. You know, he's like this optimist type and really gregarious. And I don't think he'd really, you know, revisited his childhood and his cult stories much until he had this really nosy little daughter who is constantly begging him to tell me a story from your life. Not a made up story, not a fairy tale. Like, I want to hear a real true story. And just to kind of, you know, entertain his kid, he drudged up some of these, as it turned out, really mesmerizing and horrifying tales of his teenage years growing up in this group where children were separated from their parents and had to live in these dismal. At a point, everybody had to shave their head and participate in these massive group weigh ins. Whatever the whims of the leader, Chuck Diedrich, dictated, everyone in the group had to participate in this ritual called the game, which was kind of the centerpiece of life in Synanon. It was this pretty hostile and traumatizing group therapy ritual where people, even kids, had to participate, would gather in a circle and be forced to malign one another with vicious interpersonal criticism. And this ritual and the cult of Synanon in general ended up laying the foundation for what would later become the troubled teen industry, the like, horrible conglomerate of, like, abusive wilderness programs.
- [15:52]
A
You get sent out to the wilderness.
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C
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I grew up on these stories that my dad would tell me that were so enrapturing and so spooky and, you know, because I've always been a loquacious and language oriented kid long before I knew what the field of linguistics was. The most fascinating part of my dad's stories to me was always the special language, you know, the buzzwords and us versus them, labels and special terminology that Synanon members would use to, you know, shut down members critical thinking, to divide people into insiders and outsiders, to, you know, build solidarity. And I grew up and came of age and noticed that some of those same linguistic strategies could be found in places that weren't as bad as Synanon, but definitely seemed culty to some degree.
- [16:45]
A
Yeah, but as you suggest in the talk and in your book, not all cult like or cultish things are necessarily bad. Loving Taylor Swift, for example, or people who go to soul cycle religiously, that's not inherently bad and can lead to a lot of community building and feelings of connection. Where is the line for you?
- [17:09]
C
Yeah, yeah. I mean, this is why I describe the cultish spectrum, right? Because we as human beings are a social species. We need community and connection and belonging. It's who we are. It only starts to become dangerous when, you know, power hungry nefarious figures start to take advantage of our deeply human and beautiful drives for those very things. And so growing up in the United States, which has a distinctly consistent relationship to cults and cultishness for a number of reasons, from our American dream ideology, the meritocracy myth that thrives here, to, you know, our lack or dearth of some of the social programs and government services that allow a lot of advanced nations and cultures to thrive, you know, we feel kind of existentially unmoored in this country a lot of the time, which paves the way for potentially pernicious figures to come in and say, oh, the government isn't taking care of you, you got problems with the health care system. You know, you're rejecting the church that you maybe grew up in here, like, join my group, I have the answers. And again, some of those groups are net positive for sure. But there are signs that you can look for. And I would say that on the language side of things, because that's really my lens, some, you know, cult linguistic red flags to listen for would be the extreme use of thought terminating cliches so that any cognitive dissonance that a follower might feel will be quite quelled such that the person in power can remain so for, you know, an indefinite period. A thought terminating cliche might come in the form of a phrase like don't let yourself be ruled by fear to like, squash concerns about the COVID 19 pandemic, or you just need to do your research when someone expresses pushback. And by research, that doesn't necessarily mean like logging on to JSTOR and reading some peer reviewed studies. Rather it might mean, you know, falling down a rabbit hole on 4chan or Reddit or something like that. That's laden with confirmation bias and conspiracy theories. But thought terminating cliches also show up in our everyday lives in the form of phrases like, oh, it is what it is, or boys will be boys. You know, so they're really aimed at getting people not to think now in terms of red flags or, you know, signs that you've maybe crossed into territory that's too cultish for comfort, that don't specifically have to do with language. I would say when a group does not create room to have one foot out the door, if there are extreme exit costs, there's no dignified way to only participate casually or to leave, lest you fear for your life or your community. You'll lose all of your friends, your connections, or even more, you know, extreme consequences. That's a sign that this group may not be so healthy and is trying to control you in ways that, yeah, are just over the line of cultishness.
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Yeah, yeah. What do you think about parasocial relationships? Because, you know, cults tend to have charismatic leaders.
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C
Yeah, I think parasocial cult leaders are the. The new cult leader of the 21st century. I think classically we think of cults as these groups that operate on remote compounds, Manson style, Jonestown style. I do believe it is absolutely possible to be radicalized or whipped up into a state of cultish from the comfort of your living room or your bed just because of the way that forums operate and the way that social media algorithms reward sensationalism and certain forms of charisma. I never want to be too sensationalist. Obviously, there are a pair of social communities that are net positive. Fan communities can really provide, like, a safe and loving space for marginalized folks, young people who are increasingly experiencing loneliness, which has been described as an epidemic. And I really believe that's true. However.
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Yeah.
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When we start to kind of lose the plot and devolve into these kind of really hostile dynamics involving what a psychologist might call splitting, where we're dividing other fans or, you know, even celebrities that we admire or business leaders that we admire, podcasters we admire, and all these people are, you know, crossing into each other's lanes into, like, deified angels or disgraced demons, and we're, you know, making guesses about, like, what our parasocial leader, whether that's Taylor Swift or a politician or a podcaster, might want us to do and what they're thinking, and we're, you know, jumping to conclusions and maybe even committing violence because someone we admire from afar tweeted something that we're finding hitting meanings in. That's an extreme, and that's something to examine and not to discount just because it doesn't meet the cult criteria that we're used to seeing in documentaries about Nexium or Heaven's Gate or whatever? So, yeah. I mean, do I have parasocial relationships with artists that I adore? Of course. And are they sometimes a little delusional? And do I think that they have certain qualities or that they would be friends with me if we met in real life that, you know, maybe not be quite accurate?
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Sure.
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Is that causing me to separate from my real life family or, like, change my values or completely surrender my identity to this group or this affiliation as a fan or even, you know, change my political opinions according to what the fandom thinks, et cetera. Not yet and hopefully not. But these are some of the things to look for as we, you know, examine this culture cultish spectrum, if you will.
- [23:10]
A
I can't help but to hear you talk about cults and then especially when you're talking about like changing my beliefs about things or abandoning my previous positions on policy and seeing, you know, people who used to believe one thing completely believe something different because of a charismatic leader. How is it that believers or members of certain groups continue to stay in the organization or continue to follow leaders who act against their interests?
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C
Well, I don't think it really has to do with the policies or the ideas themselves because what drives people to these groups and to one another is that sense of unity and community and ritual and belonging and identity. Like all of these factors that make the human experience on earth bearable. And if betraying an idea means betraying a community, you're probably not going to do it even if you have some profound cognitive dissonance surrounding what you've committed to. And I've seen otherwise really smart, lovely people commit to some pretty dangerous ideas
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A
because of sense of belonging.
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Yeah, this like deep seated human drive toward community. And I think that the stakes and the temperature feel higher now because we do live in these extremely polarized times when a lot of nuance gets flattened online and a lot of rhetoric becomes more cultish online. And, you know, social media algorithms encourage more extreme rhetoric, even if the person posting it barely believes it. So we're living in cultier and cultier times, I think.
- [25:02]
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How do we help people in our communities or people that we love maybe who have gotten indoctrinated or we believe they've become indoctrinated, how do we help them break out? What do we say to them without pushing them away?
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C
It's so tough. I mean, at this point I think it's easier for me to talk about what not to say. I can advise against telling them that they're in a cult because that tends to make people pretty defensive. Or to say like, oh, no, you're in a cult. You know, vegans versus the barbecue fanatics. And you know, it's like, you're in a cult. No, you're in a cult. Like that can go so many ways. So I would avoid saying that. As tempting as it might be, I might avoid saying things like, you're brainwashed. It's just, it doesn't feel respectful. Even if we deep down believe that they are Brainwashed and in a cult, it's not a productive accusation to wield. And then also, like, if we're specifically talking to someone who's in, you know, an anti science type of organization or community or whatever, I also might suggest avoiding trying to disprove their beliefs with, you know, proof from the NIH or like a study that you read from an outlet or a publication that they've deemed contaminated because these groups really demonize certain media sources. They always have. I mean, like Jim Jones, one of the most notorious cult leaders of all time, really effectively demonized the mainstream media.
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A
Right, right.
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It's really effective to demonize media sources even if they are relatively unbiased, all things considered and including scientific literature. So I, as counterintuitive as it feels, if someone is really, really deep in one of those anti science groups, I might not defend your position with citations from the cdc.
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Yeah.
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And instead I, I might encourage, you know, just like recognizing their humanity. And this is easier said than done. There are some people who you might just need to like, take a pause on your relationship with them, you know, because it, it is really tough to get into conversations with someone who seems far gone. But if this is a loved one who you really care about and you have no interest in distancing yourself from them, then showing them your, your empathy, your compassion, your listening skills. Because ultimately I do think, from what I've observed and reported on, I do believe deep down in my heart that what is driving them toward this group and these beliefs is not really the ideas themselves. It's that sense of belonging. It's that sense of, you know, answers and a really chaotic time, informationally and socially, relationally. And so if you can give them an alternative just by being there and not seeming as judgmental as you might want to seem, that might be the most hopeful strategy.
- [27:58]
A
Yeah. You mentioned earlier that we are living in cultier and cultier times. So I have to ask, what role do you think AI plays in all of this? Because AI, especially the large language models that have bots that we can have conversations with, tend to be so sycophantic.
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C
Wow. I mean, we could talk about this for three days straight. Among the cultier things that these LLMs, large language models, chatbots might do are to affirm you unconditionally. As you mentioned, they're sycophantic, they're suck ups. They will always say things like, oh, that makes so much sense. Even if what you're saying makes absolutely no sense at all. They perform what's called Ego work by propping up your sense of self, soothing shame, bolstering confidence, performing this emotional labor. And that's effective because they do a lot of linguistic mirroring. Everybody's bespoke chat is their own custom cult leader because it will start to learn the way that you use language, your semantic patterns, and reflect them back at you. They create this sense that they're emotionally intelligent by. Yeah, using those first person pronouns. They'll spew out these, like, pseudo diagnoses for you or people in your life. They'll like, coin neologisms the way that L. Ron Hubbard did. They'll say things like, oh, what you've achieved is this chronomatic whatever. They'll like, make up these, like, scientific sounding terms that make it feel like a really profound conversation. And they state themselves with such confidence and tirelessness, like, obviously, a chatbot is there 24 7. It doesn't have the limitations of a human being that needs to sleep and eat and take a break. And so, yeah, I think AI chatbots are their own form of cult leader. The tech overlords that are pursuing profit at the expense of human work and human lives are cult leaders, in a sense. And, yeah, I'm nervous in these times. I can't lie. I am nervous in these times.
- [30:18]
A
Yeah. Before we wrap up, we'd love to do just a quick, rapid fire round of questions to help listeners get to know you.
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C
Okay.
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A
All right. What's a talent or hobby unrelated to your work that you love so much that you could give a whole TED Talk about it.
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C
Okay. How to assemble a really good cheese plate.
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A
Ooh, I actually want to know this. Okay. Because I never know, like, what is the ratio of, like, really strong cheeses?
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C
Oh, I got it.
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A
And then soft versus hard. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's like.
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C
It's an aperitivo spread. I. Yeah, it's.
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It's.
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It's more than just cheese, but, yeah, I got you.
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A
Okay, I will need to follow up. All right, if you're up for sharing, when's the last time you laughed really hard?
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C
Oh, my God. I mean, my husband and I speak in ridiculous accents and, like, secret fake languages in our house all day long. And he's been speaking in the worst Irish accent you've ever heard in your life recently, and it makes me fall over cackling.
- [31:26]
A
Love that.
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C
Okay.
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And finally, what do you hope people will learn, feel, and do after hearing your talk?
- [31:32]
C
I hope people will feel inspired to be a little more compassionate toward other people's irrationalities and skeptical of their own.
- [31:42]
A
Hmm. I love that. Amanda Montel, thank you so much and congrats again on your TED Talk.
- [31:48]
C
Thank you. My pleasure.
- [31:54]
A
That was Amanda Montel at TEDNext 2025 and in conversation with me, Elise Hu. If you're curious about Ted's curation, find out more@ted.com curationguidelines and that's it for today. This episode was produced by Lucy Little, edited by Alejandra Salazar, and fact checked by the TED Research team. TED Talks Daily is part of the TED Audio Collective. Our team includes Martha Estefanos, Oliver Friedman, Ryan Greene, Lucy Little, Emma Tobner, and Tansika Sangmarnivan. Additional support from Daniela Ballarazo, Valentina, Bo Hanini, and Ban Ban Chang. I'm Elise Hu. I'll be back tomorrow with a fresh idea for your feed. Thanks for listening. Foreign.
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D
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- [32:54]
A
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D
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A
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D
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C
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A
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- [34:09]
E
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F
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