Waymo's case for a driverless future | Tekedra Mawakana, Sal Khan

Summary

Podcast Summary: Waymo's Case for a Driverless Future

TED Talks Daily
Guests: Tekedra Mawakana (Waymo co-CEO), Sal Khan (CEO, Khan Academy)
Host: Elise Hu
Date: May 11, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the transformative potential—and societal challenges—of autonomous vehicles, featuring Tekedra Mawakana, co-CEO of Waymo, in conversation with Sal Khan. They discuss the current scale of Waymo's operations, the real risks and benefits of driverless cars, societal resistance to change, regulatory hurdles, safety data, market competition, potential societal impacts, and implications for jobs and urban planning.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Real Danger: Human Drivers

• Context: Despite decades of improvements (seatbelts, airbags), road fatalities remain staggeringly high due to human error.
  • "Nearly 37,000 people died on roads in the US last year. And globally that number is more than 1 million. And we've just accepted it." (A, 00:04)
• The societal tolerance of these numbers is compared to daily mass casualty events.
  • "We don't experience these as 737s falling out of the sky every day, but that's what it would be..." (B, 00:34)

2. Waymo’s Current Deployment and Growth

• Waymo operates in 11 US cities, serving 500,000 rides a week, aiming for 1 million weekly rides by year-end.
• Fleet: ~3,000 vehicles; over 4 million miles driven each week by the autonomous system—amounting to "six lifetimes of human driving per week."
  • "A human drives around 700,000 miles in a lifetime... This is six lifetimes of human driving per week." (B, 03:51)
• Airports: Service in San Antonio, Phoenix, San Francisco, and San Jose.
• First steps internationally in London and Tokyo (testing phase).
  • "We've moved from manual driving to fully autonomous driving... those will be our first two international markets." (B, 04:50)

3. Barriers to Scaling: Regulation and Adoption

• Main challenge is not always technology but regulation and public acceptance.
  • "In certain markets, it’s absolutely regulation... Now we have markets that are closed, markets that are open. We have to do all of the work with cities, regulators, first responders, everyone..." (B, 05:30)
• Waymo’s transparent approach: sharing safety data with researchers and policymakers.
• Public comfort with current rates of road injuries and fatalities impedes urgency for adoption.

4. Safety Data and Impact

• Waymo’s safety record: More than 200 million miles driven; 13x reduction in serious injury crashes compared to human drivers; over 10 times safer than a human at 170 million miles.
  • "We can now say we are just over 10 times safer than a human at 170 million miles." (B, 05:55)
• No deaths caused by Waymo vehicles so far.
  • "Waymo has not caused a death."[D, 07:10] — "That's right."[B, 07:12]
• Potential global lives saved: 900,000 annually if widely adopted.

5. Status Quo Bias and Societal Perception

• Public and policymaker reluctance is due partly to underestimating human error and the normalization of road deaths.
• Memorable analogy:
  • "We don't experience these as 737s falling out of the sky every day, but that's what it would be if we actually experienced it as mass casualties..." (B, 08:57)
• Sal Khan story: Media sensationalism about incidents (e.g., child struck by Waymo)—but factual performance is 'superhuman.'
  • "The Waymo... immediately came to a stop and it hit him at like 4 miles an hour or something. Like he literally just fell on his knees, brushed it off..." (D, 09:53)
  • "Our car was traveling 17 miles per hour, and we were able to get to 6 miles per hour before making contact. Obviously we want to make no contact, but we know that was superhuman performance." (B, 11:06)

6. Defining True Autonomy vs. Partial Automation

• Level 4/5: No driver intervention needed—vs. Level 2/3, which require humans ready to take over.
  • "If you do not need a driver's license to be in the car by yourself... that is fully autonomous, what is referred to in the geeky sense, level four and level five..." (B, 12:45)
• Early testing showed humans quickly disengage when systems are partially autonomous—reinforcing the necessity for full autonomy.
  • "People immediately unplugged from the driving task and they started shaving and curling their eyelashes…" (B, 13:38)

7. Societal and Urban Impacts (10–15 Years Ahead)

• Collaboration with public transit to reduce congestion ("kiss and ride" from suburbs); experiments offering discounts when combining Waymo and public transit.
• Vision for cities: Recapturing parking lots and urban space for parks and communal areas.
  • "Most of those parking lots in major cities around the world are central... city planners... start imagining a world where parking structures could move out, parks could come back, community life could sort of come back..." (B, 16:13)
• Autonomous vehicles could democratize mobility for those without licenses.

8. The Future of Work and New Job Creation

• Concerns about displacement (drivers, truckers) acknowledged—with a focus on transitional strategies and new roles:
  • Fleet management, operators, depot professionals, EV charging, AV maintenance.
  • Partnerships with education and community colleges to train new AV technicians.
  • Local economic impact: $40 million in economic development in San Francisco in one year due to Waymo-related tourism.
    • "Just from us... there are new jobs being created. So we have... fleet technicians... operators... All of that didn't exist 10 years ago." (B, 18:42)
    • "We did a partnership with Techforce foundation... helping like people who are in school to be mechanics... become mechanics of autonomous vehicles." (B, 20:16)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Safety is urgent, saving lives. If this technology can perform at this level, then we have a responsibility to figure out how to do it." (B, 07:52)
• "People don't generally view themselves or their neighbors or their friends or everyone they know as unsafe drivers. Even when they're distracted, drunk, tired, and angry. We just kind of accept that that's the human condition." (B, 10:57)
• "If you do not need a driver's license to be in a Waymo to get from point A to point B, that is fully autonomous..." (B, 12:45)
• "That's when we decided... The way to make sure that this multi ton vehicle is not as dangerous is to actually let humans be humans... Let the Waymo driver get you from point A to point B." (B, 13:56)
• "As the technology rolls out more and more, I think people's imagination actually starts to get sparked in ways that are very exciting…you should make it a yoga studio on wheels." (B, 16:45)
• "For better or for worse, it was also a really hard job... there are new jobs being created... these are like AV focused jobs, 1, 2 jobs that exist today..." (B, 18:42)

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Timeline of Important Segments

• 00:04 – Introduction: Framing the human cost of road deaths.
• 03:43 – Waymo’s current operations, scale, and plans for international expansion.
• 05:25 – Barriers to scaling: technology, safety, regulation.
• 05:55–07:12 – Safety data and potential impact; highlighting no Waymo-caused deaths.
• 07:52–09:53 – Societal resistance, status quo bias, economic studies about potential savings.
• 09:53–12:09 – Discussion of notable incident (child pedestrian) and public perceptions of safety.
• 12:09 – Competition, distinctions between full autonomy and assisted driving; implications for consumer experience.
• 15:19–17:45 – Vision for cities and urban transformation due to driverless vehicles.
• 18:06–20:16 – Impact on jobs and workforce; discussion of economic changes and role of education.
• 20:16–21:43 – Concluding thoughts about job transition, economic impact, and societal responsibility.

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Conclusion

Tekedra Mawakana and Sal Khan’s conversation makes a compelling case for the urgent societal need to rethink our streets and the role of technology in addressing the "patched-over" crisis of road safety. The episode counters skepticism about self-driving cars by transparently presenting safety data, clarifying the real levels of autonomy, and imagining a future where repurposed infrastructure and new job categories could reshape cities for the better, all while underscoring the persistent challenge of moving society beyond its comfort with the deadly status quo.

Transcript

[A]

You're listening to TED Talks Daily where we bring you new ideas to spark your curiosity every day. I'm your host Elise Hu. Cars have gotten safer over the years. Airbags, seat belts, better engineering. But as Waymo's co CEO Tekidra Mawakana sees it, there's one safety problem the world has been patching around for decades. Humans. Nearly 37,000 people died on roads in the US last year. And globally that number is more than 1 million. And we've just accepted it.

[B]

We don't experience these as 737s falling out of the sky every day, but that's what it would be if we actually experienced it as mass casualties. We sort of have to remind people that the status quo is totally unacceptable. And it's even more unacceptable when you have technology that could help address it.

[A]

When most people think about self driving cars, the first instinct is to worry about whether they're safe. But in this conversation with ted's vision steward and CEO of Khan Academy, Sal Khan, Kedra flips that question. What if the real danger is the status quo? She shares where autonomous driving actually stands today. What's accelerating the rollout? What's slowing it down, and what our cities might look like if we could turn parking lots into parks. That conversation is coming up right after a short break.

[C]

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[D]

Well, great to have you here, Takedra.

[B]

It's great to be here. Thank you so much.

[D]

So, Takedra, what's next? I mean, every time I look at the news, I see a new city, I see new models. What's new?

[B]

We are currently operating in 11 cities in the US we're providing 500,000 trips per week and we have the goal by the end of the year to be at a million trips per week. Just to help people wrap their mind around what that means or how to think about it. Our fleet of vehicles is about 3,000 cars and we drive. So the single Waymo driver drives over 4 million miles per week. The way to think about that is a human drives around 700,000 miles in a lifetime. A human who lives the full lifetime. This is six lifetimes of human driving per week. We're really excited. We're also in four airports right now. You can fly into San Antonio or Phoenix, San Francisco or San Jose and jump in a Waymo. Use the Waymo app. It'll take you from point A to point B. And so it's just we're at this point where the technology has moved from will it work and can we produce the kind of safety outcomes that we care about to scaling. And so we're really excited. And we are also in London and Tokyo. We've moved from manual driving to fully autonomous driving. We still have people behind the wheel. So we haven't launched a service yet, but those will be our first two international markets.

[D]

What's the rate limiting factor? Is it some notion of safety or is it regulation?

[B]

What is really depends in certain markets it's absolutely regulation. I think when you think about the evolution of this technology as a whole, it's been making sure that we could have the safety outcomes that we want. And all of that is the technology like, can the driver produce these kinds of outcomes? We've driven over 200 million miles in our time, and based on 170 million miles of data, we are now reducing 13x reduction in serious injury causing crashes over a human and the same amount of reduction as it relates to injuries with pedestrians. We can now say that we are just over 10 times safer than a human at 170 million miles. And so that's the kind of superhuman performance that we were seeking in order to then be able to scale this technology. Now we have markets that are closed, markets that are open. And we have to do all of the work with the cities, with the regulators, first responders, everyone, in order to advance our technology. So we're laser focused on doing that. And the reality is circumstances, citizens, consumers, riders, those who've been cut out of the mobility systems in cities, they're demanding and requesting and advocating for us to come. And so that's a really exciting inflection point.

[D]

Also, it's worth triply underlining what you just said. Over 10 times safer, at least based on the current data we were talking earlier, y' all have already driven the equivalent of 300 lifetimes.

[B]

240 lifetimes. Is that. Yeah, 200.

[D]

Waymo has not caused a death.

[B]

That's right.

[D]

Knock on wood. And there's an argument there's 40,000 people roughly in America every year who die of a car accident. I think in the world it's on the order of a million every year. So in theory, if this became everywhere, you could be saving 900,000 lives globally. You could be saving 30, you know, 35, 36,000 lives just in the United States. Why isn't there more? I know y' all are growing, maybe as fast, but why not roll out as fast as possible? What's stopping that from happening?

[B]

I think we are now focused on rolling out safely as quickly as possible. There is an adoption curve that has to happen though, right? I think what you're saying is what undergirds our entire company, which is like, safety is urgent, saving lives. If this technology can perform at this level, then we have a responsibility to figure out how to do it. And doesn't mean, though, that we're not being met with opposition. And so we also, we have the burden of making those policymakers who are not welcoming us with open arms. You know, we have to demonstrate our safety record. So we have A safety hub. You know, we make all of this data transparent. We hand it to researchers so they can make their arguments. And so it's been really fun lately to watch different sectors of the economy start to talk about how powerful this technology is. We have Dr. John Slotkin, a neurosurgeon who has just calculated that 900 billion to 1.25 trillion could be saved if our technology was rolled out, if every car on the road was a waymo. But this is the problem people are really comfortable with. The number of people who die on the roads, 40,000 people dead, 1.2 million globally. And avoidable in many cases isn't something upon which we share collective outrage or even moderate discomfort. And so we have to introduce sort of that reality in order for the technology to be viewed as solving a problem that society currently faces. Because we've just accepted it. Why? Because we don't accept, experience these as 737s falling out of the sky every day. But that's what it would be if we actually experienced it as mass casualties. We experience it. This person's mom, that person, my uncle. And so because of that, we sort of have to remind people that the status quo is totally unacceptable. And it's even more unacceptable when you have technology that could help address it.

[D]

Yes, definitely. I think it was a couple of months ago. You would know it much better. I saw a headline, it was a very clickbait headline. Waymo hits like an 8 year old outside of a school. And I was like, oh my God. And I click on it. And then they described what happened. And it was outside of a school and there was a car parked. And if I remember correctly, there was a kid, he just darted into the street. And the Waymo. Everyone who was observing that assumed the kid was going to die because he just darted into a street where traffic was coming. And the Waymo. I don't know what the reflexes are. You probably know the numbers. It just immediately came to a stop and it hit him at like 4 miles an hour or something. Like he literally just fell on his knees, brushed it off and looked at the Waymo. Kind of weird. And then why, why isn't. You know, there's a lot of. It's convenient. I mean, you feel like you're in the future. It's, it's. Why is it the safety? I mean, it feels like that message. Is that. Is that something that you all might want to lead with? Because that seems like safety. Such a clear value proposition.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, you know, I think what you're saying is, how comfortable are humans with this technology being better drivers than humans? You know, it goes back to the status quo. There is. People don't generally view themselves or their neighbors or their friends or everyone they know as unsafe drivers. Even when they're distracted, drunk, tired, and angry. We just kind of accept that that's the human condition. And so I think in the case of the child in Santa Monica, for us, our car was traveling 17 miles per hour, and we were able to get to 6 miles per hour before making contact. Obviously, we want to make no contact, but we know that was superhuman performance. And as so many of the bystanders said after observing it, like, the child would not have survived is what we were told. We weren't obviously there. Those moments actually cause entire communities to think differently about this technology. To your point, it's clickbaity. And on the other hand, it actually demonstrates what superhuman performance is.

[D]

Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more. I actually do assume most of the people I know are not good drivers. I'm the biggest backseat driver. The economics of the industry, y' all are the first mover. Obviously. There's the Tesla Robo Taxi. They've taken some different approaches. You have many other competitors. Amazon's coming into it. How are you thinking about the competitive space? What do you think is going to happen to the economics of it? I mean, it's already cost competitive with a typical rideshare drive.

[B]

Yeah, I think, you know, right now, for us, we're the only company operating at this scale. We think it's really important to just kind of stay laser focused on that. You know, the way to think about it, because everyone's calling everything either autonomous or robo taxi or. And so the way we think about it is if you do not need a driver's license to be in the car by yourself, which is for many, many people who do not have a driver's license. It's their first time ever in life. And so those are very special moments. But if you do not need a driver's license to be in a Waymo to get from point A to point B, that is fully autonomous, what is referred to in the geeky sense, level four and level five, if it is anything less than that, if you have to be behind the wheel, if you have to take over when there's a beep, when there's anything that's level three or level two or level one, it's really important for people to internalize this distinction because what we found back in 2012 when we had sort of a super cruise capability, the Waymo driver was at that ability. We could go from ramp to ramp, no problem. But when we got to surface streets, you needed to pay attention. And we told employees, this is early days. When we go from ramp to ramp, we have a camera in the car. This was just for employees. We need you to pay attention. And people immediately unplugged from the driving task and they started shaving and curling their eyelashes and they were picking up things from the backseat and plugging things in. That's when we decided cars have gotten safer over the years. They've gotten airbags and seatbelts and all of these things as a result of a lot of deaths. But what hasn't gotten safer is a human. We decided we're patching around the problem. Actually, the way to make sure that this multi ton vehicle is not as dangerous is to actually let humans be humans. Be distracted. Make your phone call, do the thing you want to be doing. Let the Waymo driver get you from point A to point B. And so when you ask me about competition, I think there are a host of companies that are in the level two plus and level three. They need an attentive human. After inviting the human to be inattentive, to be the most attentive at the moment when being most attentive is least convenient. And so that to me is not. That is still patching around the problem doesn't mean it won't result in safer driving when you are attentive. But it isn't actually level four autonomy.

[D]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you extrapolate all of this, how much do you all think about what the world is going to look like just because of this? Maybe just because of y' all and some of the other players. 10, 15 years, what will it look like? I mean, is there a world you mentioned if you don't have a driver's license, could this be a replacement in some ways for traditional public transportation? How are our roads different? Are our parking lots going to turn into parks? What's going to happen?

[B]

Yeah, we've partnered from the early days with transit. We think it's a really interesting way to take some of the congestion out of the city, have sort of the kiss and ride from the suburbs in have people take Waymo rides. We've gotten really favorable sort of reviews in the reports that have been done there. We've also partnered with people who take public transit in la. You know, we've offered discounts if you do public transit to a waymo or vice versa. You know, we want to think about the ways that this could become part of that fabric because we think it's important that this is also very accessible to a lot of people. So that's, that's one. But when we think about 10 to 15 years from now, it's really fun to think about parts of cities that would get recaptured. You know, space right now where cars are just sitting all day, people are at work, their cars are just sitting. Most of those parking lots in major cities around the world are central. And so the idea that that could get recaptured. There are city planners who've reached out to us to try to understand, do we have to make these investments for the next 10 or 15 years, or can we start imagining a world where parking structures could move out, parks could come back, community life could sort of come back to the center of a city? So that's a vision. I mean, who knows, right? I think some of this is, as the technology rolls out more and more, I think people's imagination actually starts to get sparked in ways that are very exciting. I said to you before, it's like in some ways people go from is it safe? Kind of to your poll, right? Is it safe? Should I get in? Okay, I got in. It's kind of boring and amazing. I really like it. Oh, this is kind of not a big deal. Now I'm gonna be the coolest person I know in my friend group. And then all of a sudden it's like, oh, what could I do in this thing if it got really exciting? So I get pitched. I'm like, you should make it a yoga studio on wheels.

[D]

I'm glad that was what was pitched. I thought this was going in a whole other direction.

[B]

This is, is. Everyone kind of starts to imagine what do I want to do instead of commuting. So that's the fun part.

[D]

I had a very G rated thought in a Waymo on the highway on 101 and then I remembered, but it would have been embarrassing. And then I remembered you do have a camera without sound. So I didn't even act on my G rated thought.

[B]

Just to be clear, I do not have a camera.

[D]

No, no. I was just going to do some grooming type of thing, jobs. And I, you know, I don't see this as something that's your responsibility in totality. But my, my uncle drives an Uber in New Orleans and I, I believe the. One of the largest jobs for men globally. And not just men, obviously, women also drive vehicles, but definitely for men is driving some form of a vehicle, taxis, rideshares, long haul trucking, et cetera. What happens?

[B]

Yeah, I think, you know, I'll answer the question in a few ways. My uncle was actually a truck driver too. And that job was really important to him. And for better or for worse, it was also a really hard job. And so I think there's an opportunity and it's going to take a really thoughtful approach because I'm sitting here talking about building the world's most trusted driver. And so it's a really tough place for me to sit in and kind of facilitate the dialogue around it. However, over time what I am starting to see just from us is there are new jobs being created. So we have running our fleet, we have fleet technicians who we need fleet operators as well as smart depot professionals. All of that didn't exist in 10 years ago. These are like AV focused jobs, 1, 2 jobs that exist today. Everyday drivers, we have to hire them too in order to validate our software. We have to accumulate miles in order to validate our software. So we hire drivers constantly or our partners hire drivers in different parts of the world. We also need people who can, you know, take care of our depots, build our depots EV charging infrastructure. And so what we've started to see as we have these partnerships of fleet operators is they are driving a lot of job growth as we scale. So this is, you know, we're just too early to be able to really quantify it. But in addition to that, earlier this year we did a partnership with Techforce foundation where we're helping like people who are in school to be mechanics, to actually become mechanics of autonomous vehicles. Because we think that transition doesn't have to pass anyone by, we just need to be mindful about it. So that's one thing we're doing. And then in addition we are doing apprenticeship programs, we're doing one in LA and we're doing curriculum development with Community College, Bronx Community College, City University of New York, because again, there's an opportunity for people to learn the skills that are needed. And then I think while there's a lot of focus on sort of the jobs, there's also the like small businesses in these places where we're launching, where, because Waymo has launched like in San Francisco our first year, we actually drove $40 million of economic development for local businesses from out of towners because we were the number one destination for tourists to try out a Waymo and then to go to a coffee shop and go to a restaurant. And so I think this is a long conversation. I appreciate you for saying we're one part of it. We take this serious. We think it's important for us to be focused on it. And we're also really excited when we get to go and talk to folks as they move from logistics into now av adjacent roles with their current skill set so it doesn't all require upskilling.

[D]

Well, we could talk for hours about this, but thank you so much.

[B]

Takedra. Thank you.

[D]

Yes, thank you so much.

[B]

That was awesome.

[A]

That was Tekidra Mawakana in conversation with sal Khan at TED 2026. If you're curious about TED's curation, find out [e-mail] curationguidelines and that's it for today. TED Talks Daily is part of the TED Audio Collective. This talk was fact checked by the TED Research team and produced and edited by our team. Martha Estefanos Oliver Friedman Brian Greene Lucy Little Tansika Songmar Nivong this episode was mixed by Christopher Faizy Bogan. Additional support from Emma Tobner and Daniela Balarazo. I'm Elise Hu. I'll be back tomorrow with a fresh idea for your feed. Thanks for listening.

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