Stefan Chow (3:49)

Didn'T even know what it was.

Hui Lin (3:51)

It was kind of just a way of communicating between the two of us, a way of extending that discussion about what poverty means. But when we started releasing the photographs online and we saw reactions coming from people in the US from people in Europe and people in Russia, and then later on, only much later on, people in China themselves, whether it was right, whether it was too little, whether it looks good, whether it looks fresh, whether it wasn't as what they expected. We found that different people had different responses to the same set of photographs. And it was very strange. It was really unexpected. There is no policy report I could have ever written that would have generated this kind of response. For me, that was supposed to be a very objective way of looking at poverty, but yet it became very subjective in the way that people connected and felt emotional or very deeply personal about the food that were represented. We all had reactions basically to food because it is a daily unifying human ritual. That kind of very visceral, instinctive reaction was something that surprised me, but later on became a very meaningful part of how their work engages people. So we expanded the concept to different places. We photographed what daily food choices at the poverty line looks like all over the world. And we ultimately covered 38 countries and territories across six continents. Poverty is at the base of many issues that we see today, and it will also be affected by Many of the trends that we see in climate change, in conflict, in migration and many crises, whether man made or natural, our photographs don't change that, but they do prompt conversations. The poverty line images have sparked policy conversations and prompted new research working in policy or working in economic frameworks. There is a tendency to look at the broad strokes, at the macro view, but it really depends on what is the local context. And it's not something in the hands of somebody else. It really is, you know, the next person beside us, the people in our own communities. We need to understand that we are all part of the same system and we all play a role in it. The poverty line is really about bridging the gaps in our understanding, making us very curious, also motivated to want to understand more, because there are so many things which really bind us together and that really changes how we view the world, how we view decision making and how we view the people around us.

Elise Hu (6:31)

And now a special conversation between TED Fellow Hui Lin and TED Fellows Program director Lily James Olds.

Lily James Olds (6:39)

Welcome, Hoi.

Stefan Chow (6:41)

Thank you very much, Ludhi.

Lily James Olds (6:43)

So I should explain for listeners who haven't seen your work yet that your photographs feature specific amounts of certain foods sitting against a backdrop of newspapers from the different countries you're highlighting. How did you and Stephane come up with the idea of photographing what poverty looks like on a plate? How did you decide which foods and which locations to spotlight in this project?

Stefan Chow (7:09)

So Stefan and I, we are from Singapore, we've been based in Beijing since 2008. Stefan has lived in New York and we've both traveled to different countries and places through different parts of our lives. And we kind of came very curious and very concerned as well about the development issues that we're seeing in different countries. And we realized that poverty and inequality is in every society, but it presents itself in very different ways. It also arises in very different conditions. And from myself, coming from an economics background, I was very curious about how it's actually defined. And I realised that it's actually very much dependent on different countries, social expectations, political inclinations, as well as economic resources. And each country, each government, has a different way of defining poverty and therefore after that, setting poverty alleviation policies. And we decided that we really wanted to understand for ourselves what it means to be poor. And basically we assembled like a local food basket of food choices. And that for us really translated into a very tangible understanding of what poverty means in terms of food choices. And when we first took the photographs of the food items, we placed it against the newspaper of the day. Because the newspaper later, we realized it just gives a very factual understanding also about the time and place that we were in. And, you know, in terms of selecting countries to go to basically for the project. We also decided that we would try to use the same methodology and bring it to wherever we could, which was also very much a matter of opportunity on where we could go for work or for our own personal trips. And we gradually built it up over the years.

Lily James Olds (9:03)

Wow. And your photos are really striking in their simplicity. I'm curious why you both chose this very minimalist style to represent such a complex issue like poverty.

Stefan Chow (9:17)

We found that food has a certain way of connecting people. Maybe it also has a connection with what we went through during our childhoods when our family went through certain difficult times. And the simplicity of the visual, I think, allows us to really associate with the commonalities that we have in terms of food, in terms of the newspapers. Because these are very much items that people of all strata of society will kind of recognize to a certain extent. I think that kind of builds us into a position of empathy and hopefully from there then we have a way of broadening the conversation.

Lily James Olds (10:01)

I love that. In some ways what you're saying is the simplicity sort of allows more people in to connect to the work in that way. What was one of the most surprising things you learned doing this project and research?

Stefan Chow (10:13)

We kind of often assume that poverty is visible, but as we carried out the project and as we went to different countries with different definitions of poverty, we found that it's sometimes actually really hard to tell who is living at the poverty line. Especially in high income economies in developed countries. You may be working, you may be educated, but there is a class of working poor. At the end of the day, it's about the choices that we have in life and the limitations of who has those choices and what kind of choices we are making on a daily basis.

Lily James Olds (10:50)

That's really interesting. I think it's so common that we can jump to thinking of it as it's on the shoulders of an individual instead of really looking at the structural inequality. And I think there's something really fascinating about how your photographs showcase that. You know, it's fascinating that your background is in economic policy development. As an artist myself, I'm such a proponent of the ways that the skills of an artist are applicable to so many different industries and professions. Can you talk a bit about how your art and policy perspectives and training support one another?

Stefan Chow (11:24)

Yes. I do come from developing economic policies and I think in that role, I used to Be thinking of issues, maybe more on a macro perspective and trying to build solutions with a multi stakeholder setup. Also kind of being exposed to working with different disciplines and agencies and so on. And I think that kind of built a good foundation. But yet in the real world, I think that as far as we try to build solutions, there are very definitely as well gaps that really impact on the ground and impact people on a day to day basis. And there are issues that really statistics and policy papers cannot adequately communicate as you try to engage a wider audience to understand and develop these solutions. So I think from that perspective, the art that I seek to do is really about connecting and engaging people in a way which is trying to bridge the perspective of a macro view, but at the same time also understanding what it is like from a very human perspective and affecting change on the ground. And I think good art really connects those different points and brings us into a different way of really looking at the issue and looking at the people who are involved and the implications and raises more questions that we can try to work on.

Lily James Olds (12:50)

Yeah, I love that. It really gets at something personal in terms of psychology and emotion and just beyond the data and the numbers, which can seem very cold when looking at them. Okay, so at this point, audiences from around the world have encountered this project of yours and it's even now in the permanent collection at the Museum of Modern Art in New York. What has been the impact of this project for you and what do you think the impact has been in the world on the culture?

Stefan Chow (13:19)

We are still working on broadening the impact and hopefully engaging more audiences with it. Being in a perennial collection of MoMA is really something we didn't expect. But having platforms like these really expand the outreach that we have and brings it into a institutional platform with audiences from all around the world. And what we really hope is that we are building conversations, we are building empathy through commonalities and making also people realize that we are living within systems, systems of production, of trade and the cultures that we live in. In a way very much seen from our own perspective of the environments that we're in, in the countries that we're from. But they are all connected. You know, it's about building a perspective that the problem is not about others. It's not something which is far away from ourselves, but it's really within the communities that we live in.

Lily James Olds (14:19)

Absolutely, I love that. And what's the next topic or theme you're interested in exploring in your art?

Stefan Chow (14:26)

So one of the projects that we started in 2021 and that was in the midst of the pandemic. It's called the Conversation. So basically, Chow and Lin is a partnership between Stefan Chow and myself, and we are husband and wife. We are also parents to two young children and we are working together as an artistic duo. Certainly during a time like the pandemic, I think we reflected a lot upon ourselves about who we are trying to be, about what the future may bring or may not. And we reflected very much about the idea of impermanence, about memories, about perceptions, also vulnerability, vulnerability and the imperfection of being human and with the passing of time. Certainly we are a interactive medium in which we ourselves form our viewpoints and project ourselves on the world. So we hope that this will be a long term project for us for the next 40 years of our lives. And that kind of brings in a certain introspection into the art and into ourselves.

Lily James Olds (15:37)

That's so beautiful. So finally, if someone listening is interested in diving deeper on these topics, what resources would you recommend to them?

Stefan Chow (15:47)

So one of our early inspirations is a book called Poor Economics. It's by Abhijit Banerjee and Esther Duflo, who are professors in economics in mit. So their book and their lifetime research is really based on field work that they've done in poor communities and households to understand how the poor really think and make decisions. And I think in understanding more about poverty, about how solutions for poverty can be developed, the Poor Economics book really brought together a lot of very important research and ideas on decision making, about policy implications.

Lily James Olds (16:25)

Thank you so much, Ho Yi, it's been such a pleasure talking to you today.

Stefan Chow (16:28)

Thank you very much, Lily.

Elise Hu (16:34)

That was Hui Lin, a 2024 TED Fellow. To learn more about the TED Fellows program and watch all of TED Fellows films, go to fellows.ted.com and that's it for today. TED Talks Daily is part of the TED Audio Collective. This episode was produced and edited by our team, Martha Estefanos, Oliver Friedman, Brian Greene, Autumn Thompson and Alejandra Salazar. It was mixed by Christopher Faizy Bogan. Additional support from Emma Topner and Daniela Balaurazo. I'm Elise Hu. I'll be back tomorrow with a fresh idea for your feet. Thanks for listening.

Ryan Reynolds (17:15)

They say opposites attract. That's why the sleep number Smart bed is the best bed for couples. You can each choose what's right for you whenever you like. You like a bed that feels firm, but they want soft Sleep number does that you want to sleep cooler while they like to feel warm. Sleep number does that too. Why choose a sleep number smart bed so you can choose your ideal comfort on either side. And now it's the lowest price of the season on the top selling i8 smart bed your best savings plus special financing limited time Shop a sleep number store near you See store or sleepnumber.com for details. Every idea starts with a problem. Warby Parker's was simple. Glasses are too expensive, so they set out to change that. By designing glasses in house and selling directly to customers, they're able to offer prescription eyewear that's expertly crafted and unexpectedly affordable. Warby Parker glasses are made from premium materials like impact resistant polycarbonate and custom acetate, and they start at just $95, including prescription lenses. Get glasses made from the good stuff. Stop by a Warby Parker store near you.

Lily James Olds (18:23)

My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for Career Day and said he was a big Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend. My friends still laugh at me to this day.

Ryan Reynolds (18:37)

Not everyone gets B2B, but with LinkedIn you'll be able to reach people who do. Get a hundred dollar credit on your next ad campaign. Go to LinkedIn.com results to claim your credit. That's LinkedIn.com results. Terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn the place to be to be.