Why countries should measure dreams and ambitions (just like GDP) | Lance Katigbak

Summary

Podcast Summary: Why countries should measure dreams and ambitions (just like GDP) | Lance Katigbak

Podcast: TED Talks Daily
Speaker: Lance Katigbak
Date: July 1, 2026
Episode Theme: Rethinking National Metrics – Measuring Dreams Instead of Just GDP

---

Episode Overview

Consumer researcher Lance Katigbak challenges the global focus on economic metrics by asking: what if nations measured what people actually aspire to— their dreams—rather than just productivity, remittances, and exports? Drawing on his research in the Philippines, he advocates for the creation of a “Department of Dreams,” proposing that countries track collective ambitions as rigorously as GDP. The episode explores what truly matters to individuals, why current systems fail to recognize those values, and how governments and businesses could better support citizens’ progress towards their dreams.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Shift from Dreams to Metrics

• Katigbak recalls how universally we’re asked, “What do you want to be when you grow up?” but later, adult society shifts focus to jobs, income, and tangible metrics.
  • “We’ve become really good at hitting metrics that were never ours to begin with and climbing a ladder that was designed by those who were already sitting on top of it.” ([00:22], Katigbak)
• He questions why national identity is tied to growth rates and economic status rather than real personal fulfillment.

2. The Filipino Dream: Major Findings from Nationwide Survey

• Katigbak’s firm ran a comprehensive survey to uncover Filipino aspirations:
  • 1. The Filipino Dream:
    • Top aspiration: Achieving financial security, primarily to absorb health scares.
    • Example Story: Tidri, a preschool teacher, dreams of becoming a beauty queen, host, or opening her own salon but is burdened by family healthcare costs.
  • 2. Dreams Are Altruistic:
    • Most Filipinos’ dreams aren’t solely for themselves, but for extended family.
    • Example: Joey, a 56-year-old radio technician, wants to retire but continues working to pay for his daughter’s education.
  • 3. Low Institutional Support:
    • Most respondents felt that both public and private institutions weren’t helping them achieve their dreams, leaving them to rely on themselves.
    • Example: Sweden, a news reporter turned entrepreneur, wishes to open a clothing store; she navigated her path without significant institutional aid.
  • “Tidri, Joey, Sweden, and 1,500 other Filipinos... their dreams seem so achievable, but somehow to them, they still feel out of reach.” ([04:24], Katigbak)

3. The Value of Measuring Dreams

• Katigbak notes that stakeholders—from business leaders to policymakers—are surprised these questions have never been systematically asked.
  • “Why haven't we tried to measure dreams?... Those who have the power to ask the question think they already know the answer.” ([06:19], Katigbak)
• There’s often a disconnect between senior leaders’ assumptions and what lower-income or younger individuals truly aspire to.

4. Beyond GDP & Gross National Happiness

• While Bhutan’s Gross National Happiness (GNH) measures well-being, Katigbak distinguishes between short-term happiness and long-term dream attainment.
  • He notes out-migration from Bhutan as evidence that happiness metrics alone don’t capture ambition.
  • “Being happy today is very different from feeling like you're coming closer to your dreams... that's what measuring dreams can do.” ([07:55], Katigbak)

5. Imagining a ‘Department of Dreams’

• Katigbak proposes institutionalizing the measurement and cultivation of dreams:
  • Annual “Aspiration of the Nation Report”
  • National dream centers and social workers as life coaches
  • Collaboration with existing departments (Health, Labor, Education, Trade) to align services with citizens’ ambitions
  • “If every country has a Department of Defense, why couldn't we have a Department of Dreams?” ([08:58], Katigbak)
  • “Imagine how much better the world would be if everyone was obsessed with helping each other achieve their dreams, and somehow there was a government official somewhere accountable for making that happen.” ([09:51], Katigbak)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Societal Metrics vs. Personal Dreams:
  “We’ve become obsessed with asking these types of questions to measure even our nation's productivity. We track growth rates... without really asking if these numbers reflect the lives people are trying to live.” ([01:34], Katigbak)

• On Missed Opportunities by Institutions:
  “We learned that most Filipinos actually didn’t feel like public and private institutions were helping them achieve their dreams and so they could only rely on themselves.” ([03:59], Katigbak)

• On the Disconnect Between Leaders and Reality:
  “In every single forum... I've never seen the most senior person in the room answer it correctly.” ([06:43], Katigbak)

• On the Imagination for a New Kind of Government Agency:
  “Imagine this, the annual Aspiration of the Nation report presented by the Secretary of Dreams...” ([09:08], Katigbak)

---

Important Timestamps

• 00:22 – Opening statement on societal obsession with productivity metrics
• 01:09 – Katigbak introduces his research and personal experience
• 02:28 – 05:18 – Key survey findings: Filipino dreams, who they’re for, and institutional roles
• 06:19 – Why this research is novel; leaders’ disconnect with real aspirations
• 07:55 – Limitations of Gross National Happiness; why dreams matter
• 08:58 – Vision for a Department of Dreams
• 09:51 – Final vision: a world obsessed with helping each other fulfil dreams

---

Conclusion

Lance Katigbak’s compelling talk advocates for a paradigm shift: from measuring economic output to tracking and nurturing the ambitions and dreams of citizens. Highlighting insights from Filipino survey respondents, he reveals that real development should be defined by progress toward collective aspirations. His vision of a “Department of Dreams” invites policymakers, businesses, and communities worldwide to support individuals as they pursue not just economic security, but personal fulfilment and hope.

---

[For more TED Talks Daily episodes or related information, visit podcasts.ted.com]

Transcript

[A]

You're listening to TED Talks Daily where we bring you new ideas to spark your curiosity every day. I'm your host, Elise Hu. What do you want to be when you grow up? Is a universal question. And yet at some point we stop being asked. Instead it becomes what do you do? Or how much do you make? Where are you going on vacation?

[B]

We've become really good at hitting metrics that were never ours to begin with and climbing a ladder that was designed by those who were already sitting on top of it.

[A]

Consumer researcher Lance Kotigbach decided to ask a different kind of question. Not how fast is your economy growing? But what do people actually dream of or aspire to? In this talk, he shares what he found and makes the case for something that doesn't exist yet we all still

[B]

want to be something when we grow up. If every country has a Department of Defense, why couldn't we have a Department of dreams?

[A]

It's coming up right after a short break. And now our TED Talk of the Day.

[B]

What do you want to be when you grow up? At age 4, I wanted to become a computer scientist. At 5, a vacuum cleaner salesman. At 6, a priest. At 17, an award winning filmmaker. And at 22, when it was finally time to decide on my first job, I became a management consultant. What do you want to be when you grow up? I'm sure everyone here has been asked some version of that question, but perhaps not recently. Somehow the questions have changed. What do you do for work? How much money do you make? Where are you going on your next vacation? We've become obsessed with asking these types of questions to measure even our nation's productivity. We track growth rates, remittances and exports without really asking if these numbers reflect the lives people are trying to live. I see the problems with the system at home. In the Philippines, our GDP is soaring, but we're doing it in a way that doesn't quite align with the kind of lives that people want to live. For one, we send millions of people abroad to take care of other people's parents and children. And we train millions more to stay awake while their families are asleep so they can be up all night answering phone calls from halfway across the world about how much money is in their bank account and somehow we're rewarded for it. We're told that we're Southeast Asia's second fastest growing economy and in a few years we'll be upgraded to an upper middle income country. As a nation, we've become really good at hitting metrics that were never ours to Begin with and climbing a ladder that was designed by those who were already sitting on top of it. But what would happen if you asked Filipinos what metrics mattered to them? What would happen if you tried to measure dreams? Last year, my colleagues and I at BCG ran a nationwide, nationally representative survey to answer this very question. Now look, no client ever asked us about dreams. But if you look at the websites and mission statements of the country's largest businesses, all of them are trying to connect their work to national development in some way. And so we knew that even if nobody was asking the question, the answer was one that many people would be interested in. We discovered three things. First, we discovered what the Filipino dream was. The number one ranked dream across all socioeconomic segments was to achieve financial security to absorb health scares. But we learned more than that. We also heard stories. We heard stories like that of Tidri, a 26 year old preschool teacher who dreams of becoming a beauty queen, a host, a politician, opening a hair salon just like her grandmother. But right now, Tidri can't afford to do that because she still has to help pay for her grandfather's health care bills because he just had a stroke. Second, we learned who those dreams are for. Most Filipinos don't actually dream for themselves. They dream for their extended family. We met people like Joey, 56 year old radio technician who works from 2am to 11pm most nights. He lives in a boarding house close to the station, given the demands of his job, but still wants to be a farmer, a social worker and high school teacher. But he really wants to retire. But every time he asks his company they say not yet. Right now he doesn't really have a choice because he still has to finish paying for his daughter's education. And third, we learned how people perceived institutions as helping them achieve those dreams. We learned that most Filipinos actually didn't feel like public and private institutions were helping them achieve their dreams and so they could only rely on themselves. We met people like Sweden, a 35 year old news reporter who spent years moving from one field assignment to another. When she had her first child, she decided to stay home and start a children's clothing business from her garage, believing that making and selling children's clothes online would be a better way of creating financial stability for her family. Today she dreams of opening up a flagship store in the mall for her business and of buying a second home in the mountains for her family. Tidri, Joey, Sweden and 1,500 other Filipinos still interviewed, all still want to be something when they grow up and their dreams seem so achievable, but somehow to them, they still feel out of reach. We shared this report with clients, the business community, media, even government officials. And every single time they asked us the question, why hasn't this been done before? Why haven't we tried to measure dreams? Look, there are many reasons, but I think it's because those who have the power to ask the question think they already know the answer. In every single forum where I've asked the question, what do you think is the number one Filipino dream? I've never seen the most senior person in the room answer it correctly. They usually guess something safe, like to buy a house or something generic, like to have a happy family. Less than about 5% of people guess it. And it's usually somebody more junior, somebody who grew up in a lower income family and worked their way up the ladder. And I wonder, in how many other countries in the world is this actually happening? Where what we call development is really just watching some number somewhere going up and to the right, but people on the ground feel nowhere closer to where they're actually trying to go than they were yesterday, where the only way up is out. But wait, we already have something better than gdp, right? Doesn't Gross National Happiness measure the same thing? Look, Bhutan's G and H, I think, has really redefined development for them. It's asked whether people are happy, whether their culture is thriving, and whether they feel spiritually fulfilled. But being happy today is very different from feeling like you're coming closer to your dreams. Bhutan might be one of the most obsessed countries in the world with measuring happiness, but about 10% of their skilled and educated population emigrated in 2022. Maybe that's the problem with measuring happiness. I could be happy today because I've got everything I need and things are going well, but I might not actually be closer to where I'm trying to go. And I think that's what measuring Dreams can do for us. Look not only at how we feel today, but at the vector of that progress over time. And I don't think what I'm suggesting is too far off. After all, most of us here already work for companies that have HR departments that measure the progression of our employees. So why couldn't our countries have HR departments that measure the personal ambition and fulfillment of its citizens? If every country has a Department of Defense, why couldn't we have a Department of Dreams? Imagine this, the annual Aspiration of the Nation report presented by the Secretary of Dreams. It looks at what people dream of by age, by income group, by geography. It looks at how people came up with their dreams, how they graduate to bigger ones, and when they decide to give up on old dreams. Imagine national dream centers where you could attend trainings on making personal progress. Or social workers trained as life coaches who can help keep you on track. Imagine the Department of Dreams could work with the Department of Health to measure how healthcare emergencies affect ambition. Could we not improve health care outcomes if we took a lens at how these emergencies affect ambition and motivation? The Department of Dreams could work with the Department of Trade and Industry to ensure that when people say they have these dream businesses, they actually get the tools to create them. Or with the Department of Labor to ensure that the jobs that people say they want are the same jobs that are being created. Or with the Department of Education to train future students for those dream jobs. Look, I understand that there are free markets, but could we not imagine a world where people said, I want to become a writer or a historian or an astronaut or a psychiatrist, and government said, sure, we'll find a way to make that happen. Imagine how much better the world would be if everyone was obsessed with helping each other achieve their dreams, and somehow there was a government official somewhere accountable for making that happen. There's so much more we still want to do in our work in measuring dreams, and we're really just getting started. For one, we hope to run this survey every few years to see how these dreams change over time. We also want to run the survey in other markets to see how the Filipino dream might be different from the Malaysian dream or the Emirati dream, and encourage governments and companies around the world to begin taking dreams more seriously. And so let's measure dreams. Let's measure what people dream of and how the content of those dreams changes over time. Let's measure how much progress people feel like they made versus last year and how much more progress they think they'll make last year looking into next year. And then let's measure whether people perceive institutions as helping them or holding them back from achieving those dreams. Then let's create the conditions that allow people to truly live their dreams. After all, we all still want to be something when we grow up. Thank you.

[A]

That was Lance Kotigbach at TedCG in 2025. If you're curious about Ted's curation, visit Ted.comCurationGuidelines and that's it for today. TED Talks Daily is a podcast from ted. This episode was fact checked by the TED research team and produced and edited by our team Martha Estefanos, Oliver Friedman, Lucy Little, Emma Tobner, and Tansika Sangarnivam. Additional support from Daniela Ballaraizo, Christopher Faizi Bogan, Valentina Bohanini, Banban Chang, Brian Greene, and Lainey Lott. Learn [e-mail] I am Elise Hu. I'll be back tomorrow with a fresh idea for your feet. Thanks for listening.