Why We're So Hooked on Scrolling

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Why We're So Hooked on Scrolling"
Terms of Service with Clare Duffy
Hosted by CNN Audio
Release Date: January 28, 2025

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Introduction

In the episode titled "Why We're So Hooked on Scrolling," host Clare Duffy delves into the addictive nature of social media and smartphone usage. Featuring an insightful conversation between cultural anthropologist Natasha Schull and tech expert Susan Ettlinger, the episode explores the psychological mechanisms and design strategies that keep users engaged for extended periods. The discussion also touches on personal experiences with screen time regulation and potential solutions to mitigate digital addiction.

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The Struggle with Screen Time

Natasha Schull opens the conversation by sharing her own challenges with reducing screen time, highlighting the ubiquitous pull of text message notifications and social media algorithms. She recounts her attempt to use the app "Clear Space" to limit her Instagram usage:

"I just went to try to open Instagram and it showed me my feed for just a Second, and now I'm getting a screen from Clear Space that's asking me to breathe in and breathe out."
— Natasha Schull [01:02]

Schull emphasizes the difficulty of self-regulating screen time despite her professional understanding of social media's engagement tactics.

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Psychological Drivers of Social Media Addiction

Susan Ettlinger explains that the addiction to social media isn't solely due to the devices themselves but the activities performed on them. She identifies two key features that make these platforms addictive:

1. Asocial Interactions:

   • "It's the asocial nature... there aren't interruptions the way there is in a conversation or social cues for stopping."
     — Susan Ettlinger [04:59]

   The lack of interpersonal interactions while using social media removes natural stopping cues, allowing users to continue indefinitely.

2. Continuous Action and Immediate Feedback:

   • "There's this element of continuous action where you can just keep going. You can keep scrolling... as you do that, you're getting immediate feedback."
     — Susan Ettlinger [05:08]

   Features like infinite scrolling and instant responses create a seamless flow that encourages prolonged engagement.

Ettlinger further compares online dating apps like Tinder to slot machines, highlighting their design's role in fostering addictive behaviors:

"Tinder is a kind of horizontal slot machine because you're swiping left and right... you can just keep going."
— Susan Ettlinger [05:55]

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Tech Addiction vs. Traditional Addictions

The conversation shifts to whether the term "addiction" is appropriate for describing excessive technology use. Ettlinger acknowledges the overlap but distinguishes tech addiction from substance addictions:

"If you drink, you're ultimately going to pass out... With tech addiction, people might not know that you're gambling or doing these things on your phone."
— Susan Ettlinger [10:56]

She argues that tech addiction is harder to detect and uproot because it doesn't produce visible external signs like substance abuse does.

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Design Strategies That Encourage Prolonged Use

Ettlinger discusses how tech companies design platforms to maximize user engagement for profit:

"It's the attention economy where profit emerges from volume of engagement... iterate your design in the direction of hooking people in and holding them there longer."
— Susan Ettlinger [09:49]

She elaborates on design elements that reduce friction and keep users engaged:

• Curved Interfaces: Inspired by casino carpet designs, which guide users subtly without obvious decisions to leave.
• Removal of Decision Points: Features like swiping and instant feedback eliminate natural pauses, making it easier to continue using the app.

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Potential Solutions: Self-Regulation and Policy Changes

The discussion turns to how individuals and lawmakers can address tech addiction. Ettlinger advocates for introducing "friction" into app usage to encourage mindful engagement:

"Reintroducing friction... to make it harder to continue without a deliberate decision."
— Susan Ettlinger [16:02]

Schull shares her experience with the "Clear Space" app, noting a significant reduction in her Instagram usage after implementing the app's restrictions:

"The day after downloading it, I spent just 37 minutes and from then on it's been about 30 to 40 minutes per day."
— Natasha Schull [21:03]

Ettlinger emphasizes that while self-regulation strategies (like moving apps to less accessible screens or using screen dimming) can help, there should be a broader push for design accountability:

"Too much burden is placed on the individual to regulate themselves. It's worth getting a little angry and redirecting it back on the design."
— Susan Ettlinger [18:28]

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Personal Strategies for Reducing Screen Time

Natasha Schull and listeners share various techniques to manage screen time effectively:

• Using Built-in Screen Time Limits: Features available on smartphones and specific apps.
• Third-Party Apps: Applications like AppBlock, Screenzen, and Opal help restrict usage.
• Physical Strategies: Leaving phones at home, charging them in another room, or letting them die to prevent access.
• Creative Solutions: One listener mentioned placing their phone in a "jail" box with allotted time away from the screen.

Ettlinger adds her personal strategy of making apps less accessible by relocating them on her phone:

"I moved it two or three pages over on my phone screen... that has helped to dampen it some."
— Susan Ettlinger [18:28]

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Conclusion

The episode wraps up with a reflection on the collective responsibility to address tech addiction. Ettlinger calls for societal recognition that everyone may need support in regulating their technology use, akin to how children are not expected to self-regulate constantly:

"We need to sort of think of all of ourselves more as kids who might need a little help."
— Susan Ettlinger [20:32]

Natasha Schull reinforces the idea that seeking external boundaries should not induce shame but rather be seen as a practical approach to managing digital habits.

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Key Takeaways

• Design Factors: Social media platforms are intentionally designed to maximize user engagement through asocial interactions and continuous feedback loops.
• Addiction Spectrum: Tech addiction shares similarities with traditional addictions but presents unique challenges in recognition and treatment.
• Regulation and Self-Help: Both individual strategies and potential policy interventions are necessary to mitigate the addictive nature of digital platforms.
• Collective Responsibility: Addressing tech addiction requires a societal shift in how we perceive and regulate our interactions with technology.

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Notable Quotes

• "It's the asocial nature... there aren't interruptions the way there is in a conversation or social cues for stopping." — Susan Ettlinger [04:59]
• "Reintroducing friction... to make it harder to continue without a deliberate decision." — Susan Ettlinger [16:02]
• "We need to sort of think of all of ourselves more as kids who might need a little help." — Susan Ettlinger [20:32]

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This episode of Terms of Service provides a comprehensive look into the mechanisms behind our compulsive scrolling habits and offers practical insights into how both individuals and society can address the challenges posed by our increasingly digital lives.

Transcript

[Claire Duffy]

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[Natasha Schull]

So we're almost a month into the New year, and it's that time when many of us fall off with our New Year's resolutions. This year I know a lot of people who wanted to do a hard reset on their screen time, but it can be really difficult to escape the pull of text message notifications and social media algorithms. Just ask hardcore TikTok users who had to endure the app's 14 hour shutdown in the US earlier this month. I myself have been feeling the pull to try to unplug more, and recently I went on a bit of a journey. So I'm going through the signup process because cutting back on screen time isn't easy. I looked into apps that could help, even though I wish I had the willpower to just do this on my own. Different services have different methods for this, like nudging you when you've spent too much time on certain apps or websites, or not letting you access them altogether. I decided to try an app I read about a while ago called Clear Space. The first app I am definitely adding to the restricted list is Instagram. It's for sure the one that I spend the most time scrolling on. It asks how many times a day would you like to use Instagram? And the default number is three I think to be realistic to start, maybe I'll say five and I will see how that goes. Okay, so I just went to try to open Instagram and it showed me my feed for just a Second, and now I'm getting a screen from clear space that's asking me to breathe in and breathe out. And now it's given me the option to open the app or say nevermind and close the app. So was this extra step enough to keep me off social media? I'll tell you about it in a bit. But throughout this process, I kept wondering, why do I need an app in the first place? Even as a journalist who covers these platforms and knows many of their engagement tricks, why is it so hard to keep myself from mindlessly scrolling? What is it that makes our phones so addictive as a Gen Xer?

[Susan Ettlinger]

So I'm 53. I was sort of on the cusp of the Facebook Instagram divide, but if I'm scrolling on some form of social media, it's going to be Facebook for me.

[Natasha Schull]

Natasha Schull is a cultural anthropologist who studies technology, design and addiction. She has some answers about why we're so hooked on our devices and some steps we can take to curb our infinite scroll. I'm Claire Duffy and this is Terms of Service. To start, I want to ask what is it that makes our phones and social media so easy for us to get hooked on and spend too much time on?

[Susan Ettlinger]

I think it's an open question whether it's the phone, per se. Right. Because, you know, the phone is a portal to so many websites and online interactive experiences and little processes. But it isn't just the phone, right. It's what you're doing on the phone. So one feature of the phone that makes it so addictive is the asociality of it. So even if we're doing things that are technically communication or that have the word social in front of them, like social media, the actual exchange is between a person and a screen, Right. So you're much less likely to self stop in something because there aren't interruptions the way there is in a conversation or social cues for stopping. You can just kind of keep going.

[Natasha Schull]

That's so interesting when we think about these things being sort of attractive because it's social media, but it's actually that asocial nature that kind of keeps us there. That's fascinating.

[Susan Ettlinger]

Yeah. If you think about it, your head is down and it's just you in the screen and you're quite isolated when it comes to the actual process of interaction. So that's one key thing. Another key feature is continuous action and immediate feedback. So whether it's Candy Crush, whether it's Twitter or Instagram, there is this element of continuous action where you can just keep going. You can keep scrolling. Right. The infinite scroll. And as you do that, you're getting immediate feedback and then you go to the next. So there's this sort of removal of pause and a kind of flow that happens.

[Natasha Schull]

Totally. It's like if you. You have sort of fomo, if you don't keep scrolling. What else could there be that I'm not seeing?

[Susan Ettlinger]

Right. And if you think about online dating, which you also do now from your phone. Right. I always think of Tinder as a kind of horizontal slot machine because you're swiping left and right, but it has a similar infinitude to it. Right. You can just keep going because what. What's the next one? What's the next one?

[Natasha Schull]

It feels like there is some controversy over this word. Advocates sometimes talk about tech addiction. Tech companies certainly push back on the idea that it's an addiction. But do you think it's appropriate to call the relationship that many people have with their phones or with social media an addiction?

[Susan Ettlinger]

Well, I understand that the word addiction itself has different lives. It has a very specific scientific life that might appear in a diagnostic manual, but it's also a lay term. And it's that feeling when you want to stop, but you know, it's two hours later and you continue to go. Would I say that that's a clinical, pathological addiction? I'm not a diagnostician, but I would say that there is an affinity there with other addictions, clinically speaking, and that we have to see it on a spectrum.

[Natasha Schull]

So one of the things that sort of strikes me as challenging about all of this is that almost all of us need to use our phones to some extent. I often struggle because looking at social media is part of my job. How do you differentiate what is sort of good, reasonable use of technology versus what might start to be a more problematic habit?

[Susan Ettlinger]

Yeah. When it comes to tech, it is really about those moments when you feel again that you don't need to be doing something. Part of you doesn't want to be doing it, but you can't stop. That would be the red flag when it's time to sort of step back from. Step back from the phone. It's a constant self regulation, and the burden really is on each individual person. Right. There isn't a form of regulation out there that's helping us with this, that cuts us off. It really falls to us.

[Natasha Schull]

Your first book is about gambling and slot machines. And one of the hallmarks of casinos is that they have no windows so that people lose track of time. And this is something that I notice about social media where all of a sudden you have been scrolling for an hour and you have take a minute and you're like, wait a second, what have I been doing? Where am I? Do you see parallels between casinos and social media?

[Susan Ettlinger]

I always like to refer to the example at the beginning of my book that has nothing to do with technology. It's about carpet design. And there's a rule in casino carpet design that you don't want to have right angles in the carpet because a right angle brings you up against a hard stop and it puts you in the position of a decision making consumer where you must decide and it engages your responsibility too. Right. You have to decide, do I want to go left into the gaming area or do I want to go to the exit? What you want to do as a casino designer is curve your carpet so that people don't notice where you're taking them. You just kind of get subtly guided where they want you to go. And if you look at tech design on these apps or even on the phone, it is all about this word, frictionless. Right. How to make it a smoother curve into a certain activity. Or think about Tinder and swiping and Facebook photo clicking. All these features that sort of catch us, that make us lose track of where we are and what we're doing have to do with the removal of friction.

[Natasha Schull]

Are the companies intentionally creating these features to keep people scrolling?

[Susan Ettlinger]

I feel truthfully that it's not like anyone set out to addict people per se. These are businesses and we are living in sort of late capitalist America where as a business you are supposed to increase your bottom line. And when we're talking about user behavior being a driver of revenue, you're going to keep just iterating your design in the direction of stickiness and engagement and time on site, as they call it in the website world, as a driver of your profit. Right. This is the attention economy where profit emerges from volume of engagement. And so when you've got that set up, when that's what you're supposed to be doing as a company, you're going to iterate your design in the direction of hooking people in and holding them there longer.

[Natasha Schull]

I think many of us have sort of a sense. But can the sort of tech addiction or draw to spend so much time on our screens affect people's lives in the same way that other kinds of addictions can?

[Susan Ettlinger]

Yeah, I mean, I feel like each kind of addiction can ruin lives or affect lives in a different kind of way. Right. Even something we might put in the same bundle, like alcoholism and heroin or gambling addiction, each one of those looks really different. And I don't know that it's so productive to draw an absolute equivalence. I think it's more about looking at what are the particular rhythms around tech addiction that makes it uniquely harmful because it's something different than a substance. If you drink, you're ultimately going to pass out. Right. And you're also going to be seen by people around you as being in a state of drunkenness. And this is not really the case with tech addiction. Right. I mean, people around you might not know that you're sports betting or doing these things on your phone. So in a sense, people think of it as lighter than other addictions, but it's actually in many ways harder to uproot because it's harder to see and detect.

[Natasha Schull]

That's interesting. Like, we talk so much about the loneliness crisis, and it's interesting to hear you describe how the isolation that comes with using tech can also make it harder to maybe find solutions or, or sort of change the habits surrounding our technology use.

[Susan Ettlinger]

Yeah. If you think of even a live game of poker, that's a social interaction where you've got to wait for other people. There's natural breaks kind of built in and guardrails and protective social cues. But when everyone's in a room seemingly together, you can each just be going into rabbit holes of your own with fewer social cues for stopping.

[Natasha Schull]

Are there certain people who are more at risk of being addicted to their devices or to social media than others?

[Susan Ettlinger]

I would say absolutely. But I want to, I want to sort of flag that I, I am not a fan of the over genetic and biologized answer to that question. In the casino gambling industry, often the line is, these poor people, they were born addicts, they have it in their DNA and we need to just help them. But everybody else can gamble responsibly. Right. We're all human beings, and some of us, it's true, may come into the world more liable to get hooked by certain kinds of things, but we all have that potential as humans. And by the same token, some devices and some apps come into the world more liable to hook people. And so I like to put my emphasis as a scholar on that side of the equation. Right. Addiction is always a relationship. You need two sides. And I look at the design side of the relationship.

[Natasha Schull]

So social media platforms are designed to make money, and that means keeping us scrolling there and viewing ads as long as possible. Is there anything lawmakers can do to keep this addictive design in check? And is there anything more that we can do to have a healthier relationship with our screens? That's after the break.

[Claire Duffy]

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[Susan Ettlinger]

I remember one of my colleagues saying, after you croak, nobody will ever talk about trauma anymore.

[Natasha Schull]

Wow.

[Claire Duffy]

Dr. Bessel van der Kolk. He is a founding father of trauma studies. We're going to talk about what treatments are available, from dance classes to somatic therapy to cutting edge psychedelic research.

[Natasha Schull]

And we're going to get really to the heart of this word trauma.

[Claire Duffy]

Listen to Chasing Life Streaming now. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Natasha Schull]

Do you think that this is something that lawmakers could or should address? And I wonder if there are regulations in the gambling world that you think could be a model for the tech world to follow.

[Susan Ettlinger]

Yeah, I do think that, you know, the gambling world is not a, is not a great model. Especially now with the exposure, explosion of mobile sports betting and the kind of advertising we see and a whole new generation now of young men being hooked into gambling on their phones. I mean, I don't want to point to the casino gaming domain as a place where great regulation already exists. You know, when people ask me, what direction should we go in for some kind of regulation, certainly I can say it would be in the direction of reintroducing friction, where you must decide whether to continue or not. There have been reports that show that what you really need to do is introduce more limits, interruptions by reducing the constancy of it, the continuousness of it. Right. I'd encourage lawmakers to recognize that reintroducing friction of different kinds is an important aspect of remediating this problem.

[Natasha Schull]

It's so interesting because I feel like even where the social media platforms have, in the face of criticism, tried to introduce a little friction, like these warnings that let you know you've been on the platform for an hour, it's often like, oh, hey, you've been on the platform for an hour. If you want to continue, click here. It's sort of like the least possible amount of friction that you could have while still doing something. For this episode, I downloaded this new app to try it out. There's a number of limits built into it, but one of the things it does is when I try to open Instagram, it shows me this screen and asks me to breathe for 20 seconds before I can open the app or I can say, nevermind, I don't want to open it. It's so interesting the way it just like, oh, wait, why am I doing this? Is there a reason I want to open Instagram or am I just kind of bored? It's a good pause.

[Susan Ettlinger]

Oh, I like that. Because the. Yeah, the pause in the breathing space is almost like a right angle of sorts that puts you in a different headspace where you orient to it as a decision and you reflect.

[Natasha Schull]

Yeah, yeah. It kind of puts you back in your body rather than just sort of the compulsive habit of reopening the thing. Are there other ways that you've seen that people can introduce that friction for themselves in the space where we're in, where the platforms aren't doing that?

[Susan Ettlinger]

I mean, there's so many sort of techniques and little playbooks for such self regulation, like dimming the screens, turning it black and white. For myself, I found that it wasn't deleting it exactly, but it was moving it two or three pages over on my phone screen. Because if I'm bored or I'm anxious or I just look at my phone and I see, oh, there's Facebook. It used to be right there. I would just click it and then find myself, you know, half an hour later. But when I have to actually make the decision to scroll four pages into my phone to find the app, that has helped to dampen it some. So that's been my strategy. I guess my reluctance to go too much in that direction of, like, methods for introducing friction for yourself is that I'm A firm believer that those limits should be placed on the design side. Right. That too much burden is placed on the individual to regulate themselves. And I think we always sort of reflect back on feeling guilty for our behavior and trying to think of ways that we can expend energy to regulate ourselves and have more willpower. It's worth getting a little angry and redirecting it back on the design and understanding that every little color and sound and procedure that is programmed into these has been done so to sort of remove friction and allow us to just continue. And so often getting a little mad about that can help.

[Natasha Schull]

I'm so glad that you said that because especially downloading this new app, I felt some shame around it. I'm like, I should be able to regulate my own screen time, but. But I've been saying that for years and I find actually that this has been really helpful to bring in some outside boundaries. So I'm glad that you said that. It's not, it's not necessarily our fault for not being able to self regulate here.

[Susan Ettlinger]

And I think people are more open in this country to that kind of conversation when they think about kids because kids are not expected so automatically to always be regulating themselves and to bear that bonus. So I think we need to sort of think of all of ourselves more as kids who might need a little help, some limits, some boundaries put in place as a sort of kinder world.

[Natasha Schull]

Awesome. Well, Natasha, thank you so much. I really appreciate your time and your insights about this. Thank you.

[Susan Ettlinger]

Thank you. It's been fun.

[Natasha Schull]

Now that I'm feeling a little less guilty about having to use an app to regulate my screen time, I. I want to tell you about how it went. I looked back at my time spent on Instagram and the day before I downloaded this app, Clearspace, and I was at the airport this day. So please don't judge. But I somehow spent three hours on Instagram. The next day after downloading it, I spent just 37 minutes and from then on it's been about 30 to 40 minutes per day. That still sounds like a lot to me, but I guess it's way better than three hours, which is horrifying and hopefully I can keep working my way down. I also reached out to all of you for your tips on reducing screen time. More than 100 of you responded to a call out on Instagram and shared a ton of helpful strategies. Many of you said that you use screen time limits built into your phones or the time limit features available on apps like Instagram and TikTok. Some of you did what I did and downloaded apps to reduce your screen time, like AppBlock, Screenzen and Opal. A few of you also had more physical strategies to keep your screen time under control, like leaving your cell phone at home, charging it in another room, or letting it die completely so you have no choice but not to look at it. One listener response I especially loved I put my phone in a box, I call it a jail, and give myself an allotted time away from the screen. We also got some voicemails with useful strategies like this one from my colleague Aditi in New York.

[Susan Ettlinger]

I started using Siri more. I let Siri tell me the weather or look up quick things as much as possible. So that keeps me away from endless scrolling or picking up my phone for one thing and inadvertently, you know, moving on to something else and basically getting sucked into it.

[Natasha Schull]

Thanks to all of you for writing and calling in. And thank you for listening to this episode of Terms of Service. If you have a technique for curbing your tech use, tell me about it. Send us an email@cnn termsofservicegmail.com I'm Claire Duffy. Talk to you next week. Terms of Service is a CNN Audio and Goat Rodeo production. This show is produced and hosted by me, Claire Duffy at Goat Rodeo. The lead producer is Rebecca Seidel and the executive producers are Megan Nadolski and Ian Enright. Production support on this episode from Jay Venables at cnn. Matt Martinez is our Senior producer and Dan Dezulla is our Technical director. Hayley Thomas is senior Producer of development. Steve Lichtai is the Executive Producer of CNN Audio with support from Kira Daring, Emily Williams, Taylor Phillips, David Rind, Dan Bloom, Robert Mathers, Jay Misandras, Nicole Pesaru, Alex Maniseri, Laney Steinhart, John Dionora and Lisa Namoro. Special thanks to Katie Hinman, David Goldman and Wendy Brundage. Thank you for listening.

[Claire Duffy]

Have you heard? You can listen to your favorite news podcasts ad free Good news with Amazon Music you have access to the largest catalog of ad free top podcasts included with your prime membership. To start listening, download the Amazon Music app for free or go to Amazon.com adfreenewspodcasts that's Amazon.com adfreenewspodcasts to catch up on the latest episodes without the ads. This week on the Assignment with me, Audie Cornish.

[Susan Ettlinger]

The truth is that many of us warned about this.

[Claire Duffy]

Reverend Gabriel Salguero, Pastor of the Gathering Place in Orlando, Florida. What are the kinds of messages you have been getting?

[Susan Ettlinger]

I got a call from somebody saying that they're not going to go to church because they're afraid. Many pastors are concerned that it will impinge on our religious liberty to serve immigrant communities and mixed status communities.

[Claire Duffy]

What does it feel like to be on the front front lines of the immigration debate? Listen to the assignment with me, Audie Cornish, streaming now on your favorite podcast. Apparently.