Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin – Dan Brown (December 10, 2025)

Episode Overview

Renowned author Dan Brown joins Rick Rubin for a captivating exploration into storytelling, creativity, science, consciousness, and the making of his latest and most ambitious novel, "The Secret of Secrets". Over the course of their discussion, Brown reveals his research process, philosophical perspectives, writing routines, and the deeply personal experiences woven into his fiction. The conversation dives into topics such as the intersection of science and spirituality, public reactions to his work (notably “The Da Vinci Code”), and the evolving role of art and literature in society.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Thematic Foundations and Moral Complexity

• Brown’s Creative Process:

  • Brown seeks big, morally ambiguous topics, choosing a subject he desires to understand. The theme comes first, then location, and lastly character.
    • “I love to write about people who do the wrong thing for the right reason.” (Dan Brown, 00:23)
  • Previous themes include AI, civilian privacy vs. national security, and lately: human consciousness.

• Villains and Heroes:

  • The best villains act from a place of warped morality; believing they’re saving the world through questionable means.
    • Example: Inferno's antagonist who plans to solve overpopulation through massive sacrifice.
    • "If you could save humanity by exterminating half of the population, could you do it? Could you pull that lever?" (Dan Brown, 01:55)
  • AI Dilemma: Even a benevolent AI logic could lead to catastrophic “solutions” (i.e., reducing population for the greater good).

2. Technology, AI, and Human Advancement

• Humanity’s Relationship with Technology:
  • AI will inevitably be weaponized by some, but Brown is optimistic that most uses will be beneficial.
    • "99.9% of the usages of AI are going to be affirmative and positive and creative..." (Dan Brown, 03:19)
  • Philosophical lag: Technology advances exponentially, but human morality progresses linearly, raising the question if our ethics can keep up.

3. The Science and Philosophy of Consciousness

• Researching and Writing "The Secret of Secrets":
  • Took eight years to write, the most ambitious and personal project to date.
  • Inspired by the “C-word” (consciousness), a term scientists are wary to define due to complexity and numerous anomalies (e.g., sudden savant syndrome, precognition).
    • "Scientists cannot agree on a definition. They don't want to talk about it. And they literally call it the C word." (Dan Brown, 04:38)
  • Paradigm Shift: Brown, citing physicists, suggests we may soon reject the view that the brain creates consciousness; perhaps the brain receives consciousness, a shift akin to Copernicus moving the sun to the center of the solar system.
    • "If we can make that leap intellectually, the amazing thing that happens is these anomalies evaporate..." (Dan Brown, 06:24)
  • Personal context: The loss of Brown’s mother at the start of writing led him to question life after death and whether consciousness persists.

4. Cultural Resistance and Controversy

• Societal Inertia:

  • New ideas, especially those challenging established narratives (like his depiction of Jesus in The Da Vinci Code), meet fierce resistance from entrenched interests and the “powers that be.”
    • "It rubs people the wrong way when what you have believed for generations is questioned." (Dan Brown, 09:26)
  • The Da Vinci Code was banned and burned in multiple countries, yet also fostered intense discussion—even among Catholic groups and priests.

• Unexpected Support:

  • The most positive feedback sometimes comes from those presumed to be most offended (e.g., Catholic nuns thanking him for highlighting the Sacred Feminine).

5. Keeping Fiction Grounded in Reality

• Research Philosophy:

  • Brown includes only real locations, discoveries, and scientific phenomena for authenticity. He reads only non-fiction and writes fiction he wishes existed.
    • "I write the kind of novel that I want to read, and then I just hope people share my taste." (Dan Brown, 14:57)

• Process Details:

  • Location as Character: Prague was chosen for its mystical history and the legend of the Golem, which became both plot element and metaphor for received consciousness.
  • Multiple plot lines make the process harder—but richer, likened to composing a symphony with interweaving melodies.

6. The Mechanics of Craft

• Outlining and Structure:

  • Often writes the ending first, then works backward; compares story structure to musical composition.
    • "A good melodic line asks a question, gives an answer. A good paragraph asks the question, gives an answer." (Dan Brown, 20:02)
  • Writes too much before trimming for pace and efficiency.

• Short Chapters and Pacing:

  • Prefers brief, impactful chapters (“get in late, get out early”) to respect the reader’s time and sustain narrative momentum.
    • "Get in late and get out early... and it creates this craving for more." (Dan Brown, 45:38)

• Characters:

  • Names come early, often as subtle cues to readers (“Finch” for a slight, birdlike character). Many are blends of people he knows or based on educators in his youth.
  • Always develops the villain first, as the villain defines the hero.

• Research Methods:

  • Heavy book research, then reaching out to specialists for details.
  • Significant time spent on location (visited Prague repeatedly) to absorb sensory detail.
  • Product and brand references are always researched for accuracy, not endorsements.

7. Creative Routine

• Daily Workflow:

  • Wakes at 4AM, writes until noon.
  • Uses the early dreamlike morning state for creativity; ends each session by beginning the next chapter to ease morning transition.
  • Post-writing: plays piano as a ritual to “reset” the mind.

• Physical Habits:

  • Hourly physical breaks (push-ups, sit-ups), gravity boots to change perspective, and healthy eating are daily practices to support writing.

8. Meditation and Spirituality

• Meditation Practice:

  • Longtime practitioner of Transcendental Meditation (TM), recommended by fellow author Harlan Coben.
  • Practices after writing (not before), finding it provides calm and a glimpse into non-local consciousness.

• View on Spirituality and Religion:

  • Not religious, but sees science and religion as different languages telling the same story.
    • “Science and religion are really just two different languages attempting to tell the same story.” (Dan Brown, 82:34)
  • Prays in the form of gratitude rather than requests.

9. Codes, Symbolism, and the Joy of Puzzles

• Personal Roots:

  • Grew up without television, surrounded by puzzles, codes, music, and books. Annual Christmas treasure hunts fueled his love for riddles.
  • Father was a code breaker and mathematics teacher; saw mathematics and music as symbolic languages—a concept that infuses his fiction.

• “Wild Symphony”:

  • Discusses recent project: a children’s symphony and book, blending music and picture books as a nod to his upbringing.

10. Publishing, Success, and Adaptation

• Publishing Journey:

  • Early books (Digital Fortress, Angels & Demons) failed commercially; The Da Vinci Code became a phenomenon due to publisher support, timing, and Vatican opposition ("The Da Vinci Code is all lies. Don't read it" sign at local church, 52:39).
  • Critical mass and word of mouth are what made the difference, not advertising.

• On Formula and Copycats:

  • Dismisses claims of being formulaic—if it were easy to replicate, he’d write faster.
  • Dozens of Da Vinci Code-inspired copycats followed, but few succeeded.

• Film Adaptations:

  • Surprised by Hollywood’s interest. Initially reluctant, accepting that film adaptations “collapse the wave” of all possible versions in readers' minds.
  • Describes the surreal experience of being on set in the Louvre, seeing imagined worlds physically realized.
  • “You’re a tourist really on set... but it was a very fun life experience to watch all that come to life.” (Dan Brown, 77:02)

11. Personal Beliefs and Looking Forward

• Change in Beliefs:

  • Once a materialist, Brown now believes some element of consciousness persists after death, based on eight years of research and conversations with scientists and near-death experiencers.

• Storytelling vs. Writing:

  • Sees himself first as a storyteller; writing is the means, not the end.
    • "Writing is the process by which you tell a story. And I try to make the writing as transparent as possible..." (Dan Brown, 95:29)
  • Each book aims for a higher level of challenge in theme, structure, and technique.

12. Manifestation and the Power of Vision

• The “Secret of Secrets” Title:
  • Visualized the title and its success for decades before writing; literally created a fake bestseller list with the title as a form of manifestation, now realized 20 years later.
    • "I have a book in this library called the Secret of Secrets that is, oh, 19 or 20 years old. ... And now I have." (Dan Brown, 99:14)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Moral Ambiguity:
  “I love to write about people who do the wrong thing for the right reason.” (Dan Brown, 00:23)

• On Consciousness Paradigm Shift:
  “Maybe the brain doesn’t create consciousness. Maybe it receives consciousness. And if we can make that leap intellectually, the amazing thing that happens is these anomalies evaporate...” (Dan Brown, 06:24)

• On Perseverance:
  "I had to take a long walk and really do that mind exercise of okay, so you go home and you call the publisher and say, hey, I'll give you all the money back. I'm not interested in writing this book. That call in my mind is generally far more painful than it is to write the book and I just get back to work." (Dan Brown, 39:54)

• On Crafting Story Structure:
  "A good melodic line asks a question, gives an answer. A good paragraph asks the question, gives an answer." (Dan Brown, 20:02)

• On Facing Controversy:
  "They put me on trial in Vatican City in absentia and found me guilty of crimes against Jesus or something." (Dan Brown, 52:39)

• On Manifestation:
  "...I always knew I'd write the book the Secret of Secrets. And now I have." (Dan Brown, 99:14)

• On Changing Beliefs:
  “Eight years ago, I did not believe in life after death. I believe now that some element of our consciousness does survive the death of the body. I guess in simplest terms, I believe consciousness is non local. Most people really don't believe that.” (Dan Brown, 93:12)

Important Timestamps

• 00:23–01:24: Brown on themes, villains, and moral ambiguity
• 03:19: On AI and exponential technological growth
• 04:38–08:15: The research and inspiration for "The Secret of Secrets"
• 09:26: On resistance from establishment and "The Da Vinci Code" controversy
• 14:57: Why Brown’s fiction is always based on fact
• 20:02: Parallels between structuring music and novels
• 33:00: The origins of Robert Langdon as a teacher/hero archetype
• 45:38: Brown’s rationale for short, fast-paced chapters
• 52:39: The Vatican’s public campaign against The Da Vinci Code
• 71:00: Brown on art’s power to predict and foreshadow the future
• 82:34: Science and religion as languages for the same truth
• 99:14: Manifesting the title "The Secret of Secrets"

Episode Tone and Style

Brown is candid, reflective, and occasionally self-deprecating, with deep intellectual curiosity and a passion for demystifying both his process and the big ideas at play in his novels. Rick Rubin’s warm, inquisitive energy draws out nuanced stories and insights, with an underlying tone of mutual creative respect.

Summary Takeaways

• Dan Brown approaches storytelling as a means to explore the world’s greatest mysteries, balancing scientific rigor with spiritual curiosity.
• He constructs his novels with the meticulous care of a composer, using real-world research, historical detail, and moral ambiguity to craft compelling thrillers.
• Personal experience and philosophical openness, especially following his mother’s passing, have transformed his views on consciousness, spirituality, and what it means to be human.
• Despite public controversy and resistance, Brown’s work continues to invite readers to question, explore, and embrace the complex dance between fact and fiction, science and myth.

This summary omits all advertisements, promotional segments, and non-content conversational sections, focusing purely on the rich dialogue between Dan Brown and Rick Rubin.