Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin

Episode: Daron Malakian

Date: February 5, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode features a deep-dive conversation between Rick Rubin and Daron Malakian, renowned guitarist, songwriter, and founding member of System of a Down. Through engaging memories and candid storytelling, Daron reflects on his earliest musical influences, family background, the evolution of System of a Down, and his personal philosophy of songwriting. The dialogue is rich with behind-the-scenes stories about the band's formation, creative process, and the fusion of cultural sounds that set System apart. Daron also opens up about the pressures of success, experimentation, and the ever-present desire to create regardless of fame.

Early Musical Influences and Family Background

• First Encounters with Rock (00:02–02:55)

  • As a child of Iraqi-Armenian descent, Daron’s earliest musical memories were shaped by visual imagery, especially the band KISS, which both terrified and attracted him as a child.
    • “It scared the out of me, the image, you know. I never heard a song.” – Daron (01:10)
  • Early exposure came through vinyl records and radio: Def Leppard’s 'Pyromania' was the first album he bought himself.

• The Pull of Aggression and the 80s Metal Scene (02:44–03:12)

  • "Aggressive music" naturally attracted young Daron, even with family and cousins leaning toward disco and pop.

• Household of Artists; Visual Roots (03:12–04:24)

  • Daron’s mother was a sculptor and art teacher; his father, a lifelong abstract painter. Music was not directly pushed on him; it was “in the air” via osmosis.
    • “It was normal to watch my dad paint. It was normal to watch him experiment.” – Daron (03:25)
  • He speculates his deep connection to music may stem from his mother’s singing, especially Arabic/Egyptian classics during pregnancy (04:00).

• Cultural Heritage and Middle Eastern Influences (06:33–09:40)

  • Family roots in Iraq; Egyptian, Arabic music was a staple (“the Aretha Franklin of Arabic music”)—influencing Daron’s musical DNA.
    • “I would have never written Aerials if you didn’t hear this. This wasn’t part of me.” – Daron (07:15)
  • Themes of heartbreak and deep sorrow from Middle Eastern music shaped his emotional understanding.

Growing Up: Immigration, Identity, and Music

• Moving from Iraq to Hollywood (09:40–13:29)

  • Daron’s parents fled political instability, artistry suppressed by Saddam’s regime. Daron reflects on gratitude and circumstance:
    • “If they stayed there, I would have ended up becoming a soldier.” (10:05–11:21)
  • Early memories of living in a small apartment, the sense of survivor’s gratitude, and the realization of how a single decision can change a life’s trajectory.

• Blend of Communities and Music (13:46–14:38)

  • Armenian, Arabic, and Western rock intersected in Daron’s upbringing. Folk/dance music was around but “never what I would put on” as a kid obsessed with rock and metal.

The Guitar, Songwriting, and Artistic Process

• Not in Love with the Guitar (16:24–17:36)

  • Intended to play drums, but logistical reasons (living in a small apartment) led to guitar by accident.
    • “The guitar was there, the amp was there... next thing you know I'm a guitar player.” – Daron (17:27)
  • The instrument remains primarily “a tool to write songs” rather than an object of obsession.

• Early Songwriting and Emotional Connection (17:36–19:26)

  • As a teenager, Daron noticed his songwriting could move even his toughest friends to tears at parties.

• Songwriting Approach & Philosophy (19:26–24:45)

  • Songs are always written as complete structures—never just riffs.
    • “If it’s just a riff, I’m not impressed. I could write plenty of riffs. I’m more impressed when I’ve written a song.” – Daron (19:40)
  • Maintains a “playful, evolving” relationship with ideas; returns to unfinished sketches until they feel right.
    • “I play with it like you play with a toy. You shape it, you try. Doesn't work. You know, until something comes along and you feel confident.” (23:35)
  • Writing is intuitive, not formulaic—sometimes a song is immediate, sometimes it’s years in the making (BYOB as a long process, 21:57).

• Relationship to His Own Music (25:13–26:15)

  • Daron rarely revisits released material, likening his process to his father's private painting:
    • “Once I put it out, it’s like... bye, bye.” (25:39)

Formative Bands and the Birth of System of a Down

• Early Bands and Musical Community (28:44–31:45)

  • Started with Metallica covers, evolved into bands with Armenian friends.
  • Meeting Shavo and Serge: Initially through Armenian school and shared rehearsal spaces.
    • Shavo (originally a friend, not a performer) encourages Daron’s participation.

• Cultural Tensions and Family History (32:25–36:36)

  • Many Armenian families in LA were refugees from conflict (Lebanon, Iran, Iraq).
    • “Everyone was kind of coming here for a better life. Things were changing in the countries that they grew up in, which takes balls, man.” – Daron (32:57)
  • Daron’s childhood trip to Iraq: Culture shock, regime omnipresence, music as emotional lifeline (“Slayer, Show No Mercy” on repeat).

The Formation and Evolution of System of a Down

• From Soil to System (41:03–54:45)

  • Soil: Daron, Serge, Domingo, and others, marked an experimental, song-based precursor to System.
    • “System of A Down is the song version of the Soil sound.” – Daron (51:15)
  • Soil played only one gig; several riffs/songs carried over into early System.

• Core Collaborators Solidify (54:49–58:48)

  • Recruited Shavo to bass; Andy to drums; eventually transitioned to John Dolmayan after Andy's exit.
  • Band quickly developed a unique, abstract sound blending metal, Armenian, and Middle Eastern influences.
    • “There is something abstract about System of A Down.” – Daron (58:23)
    • “It sounds like we're bringing worlds together. But these worlds belong together. They weren't forced to be together.” (67:03)

• Creative Intent: Not “Nu Metal” (78:16–79:31)

  • Though lumped in with nu metal acts, Daron prefers “alternative metal,” seeing System as more experimental and “detached.”

In-Depth: Albums, Songwriting, and Sound Evolution

Self-Titled Debut (1998)

• Representative Songs: “Sweet Pea,” “Sugar,” “War,” “Pluck” (62:02)
• Energy & Stage Antics:
  • "The goal at that time was play the clubs and start a pit. Be heavy. Be unique, but be heavy." (62:19)
  • Emphasis on chaos, theatrical stage presentation.
• Memorable Moment:
  • Daron notes a sense of humor in System’s music, rare in heavy rock:
    • “You don't hear... too much sense of humor in rock music. Zappa maybe had a little bit...” (65:05)

Toxicity (2001)

• Representative Songs: “Chop Suey,” “ATWA,” “Aerials” (79:31–86:30)
• New Developments:
  • Increased vocal harmonies, more emotional range, unpredictable song structures.
    • “Vocal harmonies... me singing in the band was not something foreign to the band... more vocal, Serge and I started doing more vocal harmonies.” (79:43)
• Process & Collaboration:
  • Describes writing “Chop Suey”—the intro came first, lyrics evolved, Serge added signature vocal flourishes.
    • “I didn’t think it was going to be the song that it was going to be. I mean, it’s our most popular song. It’s the song that introduced the world to us.” (88:16)
  • Middle bridge co-written with Rick Rubin and Serge by randomly pulling down a book (89:33).
• Themes of Judgment & Death:
  • “People judge people on how they die... I cry when angels deserve to die. It’s like how people are judgmental even in someone’s death.” (88:29)

Steal This Album (2002)

• Origin: Outtakes from Toxicity, released after being leaked.
• Artistic Evolution:
  • More experimental, exploring “heavy in different ways” (96:19–103:22).
  • “I was transitioning into... trying to be heavy in different ways.” (94:14)
  • Highlights “Inner Vision,” “Highway Song,” and explores melodic, Middle Eastern, and electronic influences (Greek/Bouzouki phrasing).

Mesmerize / Hypnotize (2005)

• Recording Innovations:
  • Experimented with recording guitar amps surrounded by walls of acoustic guitars for resonance (109:17–110:14).
• Songwriting Shifts:
  • Rick encouraged the band not to repeat themselves.
    • “You were really pushing us to not repeat ourselves... take my writing to a place where we were just trying new things.” (110:37)
  • Songs became less metal, more rock-oriented, embracing humor, unexpected structures, and world music influences.
• Democracy in the Studio:
  • Albums built from collaborative “lists” of songs—whichever resonated with the band, regardless of who wrote them (108:02).
• End of an Era:
  • Daron notes the band’s dynamic shifted, especially Serge’s passion for the group.
    • “We were just in a weird place... we had a member that was just kind of not along with it the same way that he was before.” (107:39)
  • Regrets not “getting to evolve even more” as a band (121:57–122:15).

Notable Song Discussion – “Lost in Hollywood” (120:35–124:26):

• Rick told Daron the song “wasn’t finished,” which led him to write a new, epic second half.

Cultural Identity and Band Dynamics

• Roots and Emotional Honesty (13:46–14:38 & 85:11–85:55)

  • Daron credits his comfort with non-Western musical scales and structures to family heritage.

• Band Synergy:

  • System’s success depends on all members’ versatility and openness:
    • “Everybody in the band has to be versatile... everyone in the band has to have broad taste and open mind.” (85:11)

• Fusion Without Gimmickry:

  • System’s mix of metal and ethnic influences is “a new thing,” not just patchwork:
    • “It sounds like we’re bringing worlds together. But these worlds belong together. They weren’t forced to be together.” (67:03)

Experiences with Touring, Success, and Pressure

• Initial Success: Euphoria & Anxiety (69:27–72:05)

  • Daron experienced panic attacks as the band’s popularity grew, highlighting the pressure of fulfilling childhood dreams.

• Challenging Audiences (72:05–77:43)

  • Made their bones opening for Slayer—one of the hardest audiences in metal. Embraced hostile crowds by “playing the heel,” mocking and challenging the audience to earn respect.
    • “I would start [the crowd chanting] and I would say, you’re not big enough Slayer fans.” (72:34)
  • Played in Europe to skeptical audiences, turning them around through persistence and performance (75:10).

Legacy, Songwriting, and Present-Day Philosophy

• Daron’s Songwriting Identity (133:28–134:03)

  • His “signature” is in how he arranges and connects disparate elements, not technical prowess.
    • “It's how I organize and how I compose and put things together that work in a way that it ends up sounding like one of my pieces.” (133:41)
  • Emphasis on authenticity and emotional honesty: “fans aren’t surprised when I do something different” because the music is always honest (134:32).

• Relationship to System & Scars (129:46–132:59)

  • Now writes at his own pace, for himself. Continues to create for Scars on Broadway; keeps a large backlog of unreleased songs.
  • Finds performing with Scars “more stressful” and uncertain compared to the massive, adoring audiences of System.

• Reflection on System’s Legacy (127:47–128:34)

  • Recognizes the band’s rapid evolution and wishes there had been more time to explore new territory together.
    • “I'm proud of the records... but it would have been nice to see where the band would have evolved.” (127:47)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Music found me. I didn’t really go look for it.” — Daron (02:55)
• “I would have never written Aerials if you didn’t hear this. This wasn’t part of me.” (07:15)
• “The guitar...for me, it’s a tool to write songs.” (17:27)
• “If it’s just a riff, I’m not impressed… I’m more impressed when I’ve written a song.” (19:40)
• “There is something abstract about System of A Down.” (58:23)
• “It sounds like we're bringing worlds together. But these worlds belong together.” (67:03)
• “I never thought of that up and... I always remember that bus ride and that's where that hit me.” (11:21)
• “I rarely put on Toxicity. I rarely put on System records... once I put it out, it's like. Almost like, bye, bye.” (25:39)
• “It seems like you work for it with System, but when the, the people are there to see you and adore you and all singing along with songs, a lot of the work is done.” (132:23)

Key Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:02 – Childhood memories of KISS, early exposure to music
• 03:12 – Artistic family background
• 07:15 – Influence of Arabic/Egyptian music
• 09:40 – Family’s emigration from Iraq
• 16:24 – Starting guitar by accident
• 17:36 – Early songwriting impact
• 19:26 – Songwriting as composition vs. riff-driven
• 28:44 – First band experiences
• 32:25 – Armenian diaspora in LA
• 36:36 – Trip to Iraq; impact of political fear
• 41:03 – Musical community, Soil, Serge, Shavo
• 54:49 – Soil ends, System begins
• 58:23 – Abstract sound and influence fusion
• 62:02 – System’s first album; Sweet Pea and unique heaviness
• 79:31 – Toxicity’s evolution; Chop Suey’s origins
• 86:05 – Chop Suey as turning point; discuss harmony and dynamics
• 94:14 – Artistic transitions between albums
• 107:11 – Mesmerize/Hypnotize era; recording innovations
• 121:50 – “Lost in Hollywood” – Rick’s suggestion transforms song
• 127:47 – Reflection on System’s legacy
• 129:46 – Daron’s life/creativity today

Closing Reflection

This conversation with Daron Malakian offers not only a detailed oral history of System of a Down but a revealing look into how cultural, personal, and artistic forces converge in modern music. Daron’s honesty about the struggles of creativity, the unpredictability of success, and the mosaic of his influences frames System’s evolution as both organic and revolutionary. His openness with Rick Rubin highlights the depth of collaboration that has helped shape some of the most innovative rock music of the past three decades.

For further exploration:

• System of a Down discography
• Scars on Broadway
• Tetragrammaton.com for more episodes and esoteric content