Daron Malakian - ON METAL (Part 1)

Summary

Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin

Episode: Daron Malakian - ON METAL (Part 1)
Date: December 31, 2025
Theme:
A deep-dive into the evolution of heavy metal music, led by Daron Malakian (System of a Down), with detailed listening sessions, band histories, and personal reflections, tracing the genre from its roots through its most transformative eras.

---

Main Theme and Purpose

Daron Malakian, joined by Rick Rubin and fellow conversationalists Chris and Sam, embarks on a comprehensive journey tracing the genesis and development of heavy metal music. The conversation weaves through proto-metal, classic acts, the rise of subgenres, and personal metalhead origin stories, all accompanied by listening to seminal tracks and critical riffs. Listeners receive not only a music history lesson but also get insight into how these sounds shaped Daron’s musical identity.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Proto-Metal and Early Heavy Sounds

• Power Chords & The 60s Foundation:
  • Daron credits British acts like The Kinks’ “You Really Got Me” and The Who for pioneering the hard-hitting sound that would become central to metal.
  • Early Beatles (“I Want You”) flirted with darkness, hinting at what Sabbath would become.
• Psychedelic to Heavy:
  • Psychedelic music of the late 60s (High Tide, Cream) began shaping what would become heavy metal, morphing folk and blues into something "darker."
• Quote:
  • “I don't know who invented the power chord… but you could put into a heavy metal song or change the notes a little bit and make it darker and that riff will become pretty heavy." —Daron (00:02)

2. The Birth of Metal: Sabbath’s Impact

• Black Sabbath as the Metal Blueprint:
  • Sabbath is positioned as the first “true” heavy metal band due to their “doom,” darkness, and unrelenting heaviness across entire albums.
• Comparison with Contemporaries:
  • Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, etc., are labeled as heavy but not fully “metal”; Sabbath’s consistency and lyrical themes were fundamental.
• Quote:
  • “Sabbath brought the doom… the name of the band, this Black Sabbath, just—they brought in a feeling of vibe that to me was the sound of heavy metal.” —Daron (05:00)

3. Key Riffs: The Spark of Genres

• How One Riff Can Change Everything:
  • The host trio listens to and deconstructs pivotal riffs (Cream, The Kinks, High Tide), highlighting how even one powerful riff can birth entire subgenres.
  • Distorted guitar (intentionally tearing speakers for effect) is discussed as a technical breakthrough (“You Really Got Me”).
• Quote:
  • "Their sound was massive…I always saw the Who as like an example for Led Zeppelin of what a band should be.” —Daron (00:11)

4. Etymology and the Naming of Metal

• From “Heavy Metal Thunder”
  • The term heavy metal is traced to Steppenwolf’s “Born to be Wild,” paralleling how “rock and roll” was named from song titles.
  • The rise of descriptive subgenres as bands pushed boundaries.
• Quote:
  • “The name heavy metal came from the Steppenwolf song… genres as we'll get into… were kind of named by songs or bands like death metal, black metal…” —Daron (09:34)

5. Transition into Harder, Faster & Theatrical Eras

• Evolution from Early 70s Bands:
  • Budgie, Deep Purple, Sir Lord Baltimore: Unsung proto-metal, influencing Metallica and others via both sound and dual guitar antics.
  • The importance of image and theatricality—KISS’s visual style married to Sabbath’s music becomes a meta-template for 80s metal acts.
  • American vs. British differences are noted, sometimes you “hear the place” in the music.
• Quote:
  • “It's the image of the demon, the fire breathing, the blood… just seeing them. Maybe KISS's music wasn't as heavy as what Black Sabbath was doing, but Black Sabbath didn't look like KISS.” —Daron (26:50)

6. New Wave of British Heavy Metal (NWOBHM) and its Legacy

• Blues Out, Speed In:
  • Bands like Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, Scorpions remove blues roots, embrace twin guitar attacks, fantasy lyrics, and sharper, faster energy.
  • Judas Priest/Scorpions dress the part—leather, spikes, BDSM imagery—codifying the metal "look."
  • Iron Maiden’s shift from blues/psychedelia to intricate, classical-leaning phrasing; personal stories from Daron about learning the guitar through these songs.
• Quote:
  • “What are you not hearing, though? Blues… It feels almost more related to like classical.” —Chris & Sam (47:24–47:37)
• Memorable Moment:
  • “When I first saw KISS, it scared the shit out of me. But I couldn't stop looking at it.” —Daron (26:50)

7. Personal Metalhead Evolution

• Initiation Stories:
  • Daron recounts that as a kid, metal’s forbidden thrill and taboo (alleged devil-worship, shocking album covers) drew him in, even before hearing the music.
  • Record store rituals, the allure of album art, and parental resistance form a backdrop to his formative metal years.
• Quote:
  • “The fantasy aspect… it's almost like they're cartoon characters… I was very young, so in my head they were fucking cartoon. I was still watching cartoons at this time in my life." —Daron (42:37)

8. The 80s: Fragmentation and Heaviness Escalates

• Thrash and Power Metal:
  • The aggression and technicality escalate: Metallica, Slayer, King Diamond/Merciful Fate, Metal Church, and Candlemass represent new branches—thrash, doom, and the origins of “extreme metal.”
  • Bands like Motorhead and Venom straddle punk and metal, influencing both scenes with their velocity and attitude.
• Scene Change:
  • “The press starts has to put a label on it in some way. So when did heavy metal start? I don't know…” —Daron (24:28)
  • Underground and indie labels (Road Runner, Metal Blade) become breeding grounds for new scenes.
• Quote:
  • “There was a technical proficiency… with Motorhead, it's superpower slurp… But James's [Hetfield] riffing… it's so tight.” —Chris (97:53)

9. Punk and Metal Influences; Drumming and Production Evolves

• Metal Merges with Punk:
  • Discharge and Bad Brains are cited as punk acts whose intensity and repetitive, assaultive structure directly inform thrash (especially Slayer).
  • Drumming transitions from jazzy looseness (Bonham, Moon) to locked-in, double kick aggression.
• Notable Drummer Highlight:
  • “The thing about Dave Lombardo is… no matter how fast it gets, it's always groovy… it never sounds like…it's always swinging.” —Chris (92:22–93:15)
  • Daron recounts jamming with Slayer’s Dave Lombardo and being awed by his improvisational fluidity.

---

Timestamps for Notable Segments

• Origins of Power Chord Metal: 00:02 – 01:33
• Darkness in The Beatles and Sabbath's First Heavy Influence: 01:34 – 05:19
• Cream and Metal Riffs: 03:01 – 04:47
• Black Sabbath’s Defining Qualities: 05:00 – 06:34
• Kinks – Distorted Guitar’s Shock Value: 06:42 – 07:41
• High Tide and Psychedelic to Doom: 07:46 – 09:28
• How “Heavy Metal” Got its Name: 09:33 – 09:41
• Sabbath’s “Symptom of the Universe” & Evolution: 11:23 – 13:27
• Dual Guitar Innovations (Thin Lizzy, Judas Priest, Iron Maiden): 33:38 – 38:05
• Theatrics and Early Metal Imagery (KISS): 26:50 – 27:37
• Personal Discovery and Metalhead Upbringing: 39:55 – 43:19
• British Metal Moves Past Blues, Iron Maiden’s Shift: 47:24 – 49:33
• Motorhead, Venom, and Early Thrash Foundations: 86:29 – 90:44
• Notable Drumming – Dave Lombardo, Slayer: 92:22 – 93:53
• Transition to Technical/Modern Metal (Metallica): 95:04 – 98:27
• Genre Naming, Press Influence on Labels: 24:28
• Punk/Metal Overlap, Underground Scenes: 80:30 – 85:53

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “One song or one riff can take a band… And someone who is listening to that would be like, I want to write more songs that are like this.” —Daron (06:21)
• “There's an emotion that heavy metal gives you, which is that fist in the air. Makes your face change into mean, grim face.” —Daron (36:32)
• “The kids that were listening to them… were about to be 18, 19, 20 years old and start bands.” —Daron (34:28)
• “A lot of these bands I would either find because I liked the album cover, or the guy at the record store knew what I liked and he would be like, check this out. It wasn't from mass marketing… It was underground.” —Daron (80:58)

---

Summary: The Metal Story So Far

This episode charts an energetic and obsessive course through the history of heavy metal—as music, as culture, as self-creation. Daron’s encyclopedic yet passionate take is matched by deep listening, scene-setting, and an understanding that heavy metal is as much about intention, feel, and tribal energy as it is about musical notes. The evolution of metal is both a history of sound and of attitude, with each new band and genre both rebelling against and building upon its predecessors.

The conversation closes on the threshold of thrash and the extreme metal of the late 80s, promising even darker and heavier sounds as the series continues.

---

This episode is a must-listen for music historians, metalheads, and anyone seeking to understand how a genre grows from a handful of distorted riffs into a worldwide subculture—rooted in both darkness and community.

Transcript

[Darren]

Tetragrammaton. You gotta start with the power chord, right? I don't know who invented the power chord, but you could think of. You know, you really got me from the Kinks, which was pretty heavy, I would think, for sure. Yeah. Like just that you could put into a heavy metal song or change the notes a little bit and make it darker and that riff will become pretty heavy. You had the who that were breaking guitars, blowing stuff on stage, and their sound was massive. I always saw the who as like a kind of like an example for Led Zeppelin of what a band should even. Just the way it was, like a great drummer, virtuoso, amazing bass player, guitar player that wrote the music, produced the records, songwriter. The presence of the vocalists kind of had a similar true vibe too. So, yeah, you know, you had the 60s bands, dude. Even you could say the Beatles in the song called I Want you. The end of that song where it gets all doomy and it's like dirge.

[Sam]

It's.

[Darren]

It's metal. It. It's. It gives you the feeling of what Black Sabbath gives you, without necessarily the same guitar tones or whatever. But the sound, the music, the darkness. So there were things that were happening before Black Sabbath, before Deep Purple, before.

[Chris]

Led Zeppelin was in a Godda Davida before.

[Darren]

I'm not sure what year that was, but those are all considered psychedelic.

[Chris]

Yeah, but it's heavy.

[Darren]

It's heavy. But the heavy stuff came from the psychedelic. Like that band High Tide, you know, the British band. Yeah, that was heavy. But that was before Sabbath. That was during the late 60s psychedelic era. And I think psychedelic music was moving into this direction.

[Chris]

It was certainly one of the flavors because it was also like a folk flavor. It's like Led Zeppelin has really heavy songs and then they have really folky songs.

[Darren]

Yeah.

[Chris]

And it feels like they didn't invent that. That was kind of what was going on.

[Darren]

Yeah, same with Sabbath. There's Sabbath, I think, took things to a direction that, like sometimes I think even a riff from a band can spark a whole genre. Just that tiny moment.

[Chris]

Do you want to play an example of a riff that inspires people?

[Darren]

Well, how about this one from Cream? Pretty.

[Sam]

And now baby get into my big black car. And I'm wet Get into my big.

[Darren]

Black car it's like heavy metal blues.

[Sam]

I wanna just show you what my politics love. I'm a political man and I practice what I be. I'm a political man and I practice what I be.

[Darren]

Could be a Sabbath song, for sure.

[Sam]

I support the left, though. I'M leaning, Leaning to the right of.

[Chris]

The American blues men who created the genre. Nothing sounded like that, you know, like, it definitely took it to a new extreme.

[Darren]

And there was other things going on. Maybe they were inspired by somebody else. I don't know that. I mean, it's always tough to tell. But then you got Sabbath at some point, you know, you got.

[Chris]

You feel like Sabbath is like the real beginning of metal.

[Darren]

Yeah. I kind of do more to me than Led Zeppelin, because Led Zeppelin had moments of heaviness. Their sound was heavy. The energy of harder rock was there. But Sabbath brought the doom.

[Chris]

Also.

[Darren]

Lyrics, the lyrics.

[Chris]

Yeah, Sabbath, the Trip was Dumb.

[Darren]

The name of the band, this Black Sabbath, just. They brought in a feeling of vibe that to me was the sound of heavy metal. The blues and the jazz was still there, but that came in between the heavy riffs. And the riffs with Sabbath weren't like. For example, we mentioned the band High Tide. But probably, if you listen to the rest of their songs, that was probably the only song that was heavy, that was heavy. Sabbath had the whole album was that vibe. And then the next album was that vibe and the next album, and it just, you know, that vibe continued. It became a character of the sound of Sabbath.

[Chris]

It seems true of heavy metal bands in general. That was the sound of those bands. They may have one ballad.

[Darren]

Yeah.

[Chris]

But it was the exception, not the rule. The rule was metal.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Darren]

And that's. That's what I mean by like, one song or one riff can take a band. And someone who is listening to that would be like, I want to write more songs that are like this.

[Chris]

Yeah. So, like the Kinks. Have you really Got Me? But that's not what all the Kinks songs sound like.

[Sam]

No.

[Chris]

No.

[Darren]

So it sparked. Those are the sparks.

[Chris]

Should we listen to youo really Got Me?

[Darren]

Sure. It's heavy as fuck.

[Chris]

And for its time, it was probably shocking.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Darren]

And then, like, to tear the speaker to get the distortion, you know. It's probably one of the first distorted guitar songs. The riff makes you do what heavy metal makes you do, which is like make a fist or like.

[Chris]

Or air guitar.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Darren]

Just something that makes your bass get like, you know.

[Chris]

Yeah. You want to participate?

[Darren]

I think we should play that High Tide song.

[Chris]

Let's hear it.

[Darren]

Once again. This is before Black Sabbath. Heavy as crazy.

[Chris]

It's like dirgy sludge.

[Darren]

But once he starts singing, it gets dark. That's doom for sure. Well, there's a whole genre called doom metal.

[Chris]

It sounds like this.

[Darren]

And it's like this vibe. Smell of burning flash like the lyrics.

[Chris]

Metal.

[Sam]

Crow.

[Darren]

This was considered psychedelic music. There's no name Heavy metal.

[Chris]

No.

[Darren]

And the name heavy metal came from the Steppenwolf song.

[Chris]

Or Heavy Metal Thunder.

[Darren]

Heavy Metal Thunder. Just kind of like, you know, rock and roll came from, like rock around the clock. And there was a bunch of songs at one point in the late 40s, early 50s, that started using the word rock. And that became the reason why people called it rock and roll. And I would say even with other genres as we'll get into as we're going, were kind of named by songs or bands like death metal, black metal, these kinds of things. So as things start getting more extreme, you know, Sabbath, the song Black Sabbath, really heavy, slow, doomy. But this song, Symptom of the Universe to me was aggressive. Like you can mosh pit to this song, and there were no mosh pits yet. But this riff. Is aggressive. Like you can bang your head to this.

[Sam]

Take me through the centuries to supersonic years Electrifying enemy is drowning in his tears All I have to give you Is a love that never dies the symptom of the universe is written in your eyes yeah, Yeah.

[Darren]

This takes things to another level of heaviness.

[Sam]

Our unicorn is waiting in the sky A symptom of the universe and love that never dies.

[Darren]

Led Zeppelin and all that other stuff. Sure, it was heavy, but this is heavy metal.

[Chris]

Yeah. This is less bluesy.

[Darren]

This song goes into a section that starts getting all jammy and bongos and stuff like that. Well, like Machine, like very extreme metal for early 70s.

[Chris]

There's no rock and roll in it.

[Darren]

No. Maybe the swing, maybe the backbeat, you know, but maybe. I mean, listen to how he's singing.

[Chris]

That's a big part of it all. Like, Ozzy's voice maybe is the archetype. Heavy metal voice.

[Darren]

Yeah. The thing is, nobody else sounded like him. Just the aggression. I think other people came and did aggression in their own style. But I mean, you have to. Yeah, of course it has to be. It's a starting point. Like, it gets more.

[Sam]

Sam.

[Darren]

And now here it is turns into. I mean, my band does stuff like that.

[Sam]

In your eyes I see no sadness. Yeah.

[Chris]

I mean, it's also really experimental. You know, the way the parts go together is not like regular song structure. It's much more free.

[Darren]

There was like this jazzy element to some Black Sabbath parts in Bill Ward's drumming. There was a looseness to it at some point. It wasn't just all riffs there. You'd Go into these sections where like this one. This is not heavy metal. This goes back to the 60s in a way.

[Squarespace Ad]

So much of today's life happens on the web. Squarespace is your home base for building your dream presence in an online world. Designing a website is easy using one of Squarespace's best in class templates. With the built in style kit, you can change fonts, imagery, margins and menus so your design will be perfectly tailored to your needs. Discover unbreakable creativity with fluid engines, a highlight intuitive drag and drop editor. No coding or technical experience is required. Understand your site's performance with in depth website analytics tools. Squarespace has everything you need to succeed online. Create a blog, monetize a newsletter. Make a marketing portfolio. Launch an online store. The Squarespace app helps you run your business from anywhere, track inventory and connect with customers while you're on the go. Whether you're just starting out or already managing a successful brand, Squarespace makes it easy to create and customize a beautiful website. Visit squarespace.com tetra and get started today.

[Darren]

Yeah, you had Deep Purple, but you also had other bands like we were talking about, like Budgie. They were doing a heavy sound, same time as Black Sabbath, early 70s. I mean. Yeah, you could say here's a song that Metallica later covered from them. Metallica actually covered a couple of Budgie songs.

[Chris]

Sounds like Metallica. They covered this, but stylistically, yeah, the original song sound like this too. Yeah, especially like early first album, you know, Aussiesque vocals.

[Darren]

Yeah.

[Sam]

Me.

[Darren]

So, yeah, there was stuff like this. Bands that are kind of like unsung heroes at the time. Like, you know, Zeppelin, Savage, Deep Purple, they get a lot of the glory and they get a lot of the attention. But there were other bands. So you know, you had all the early 70s stuff, you know, here's a Deep Purple, fireball, Double bass, which also became something later on in heavy metal.

[Sam]

Magic, in your opinion, which is all you gaze upon. Stand up on your head it only be bop all around you. I wonder where you're from oh yeah, they wonder where I found you. All my love is a long way you fall into a long way. Try to understand you try to love you right the way you smile and touch me always sends my heart alight Glimpsing like a five mile burning for my soul. People ask me where I'm from they really want to know. All my soul where you from? It's a long way.

[Darren]

All that. As much as Ozzy was an influence, Ian Dylan, a lot of people started doing that towards the late 70s, early 80s.

[Chris]

Also Ian Gillan in Black Sabbath. Looks great, too.

[Darren]

Yeah. Born Again. Some people don't like that record, but I love it.

[Chris]

Yeah, me too.

[Darren]

Yeah, I love that record. And I love Sabbath with Dio as well.

[Chris]

Dio is really different than the others. To me, it turns into more, like, mythical.

[Darren]

Well, his lyrics, his vibe. There's another dude that isn't from England that probably should be mentioned or a band. Have you ever heard of Sir Lord Baltimore?

[Chris]

I've heard his name, but I never listen to music.

[Darren]

They kind of get a little credit for being heavy before there was heavy.

[Chris]

It's heavy.

[Darren]

From the us though, from the east coast.

[Sam]

Woman, you are the master Heartache I know it's evil in the wake of a wicked wind Thunder, lightning Caught me in the stars Woman, you are the master Heartache Woman, you are the master Heartbreak Let it be the dance of every girl.

[Chris]

It's groovier than pretty much everything else we listen to.

[Darren]

Yeah, it's. They're from the U.S. you know. There's probably a difference in influences. And, you know, you. You sometimes hear. When a band is from a certain place. Like you hear the place, you hear that there's a difference in sound.

[Athletic Nicotine Ad]

The.

[Darren]

LA glam sound, compared to what the Seattle sound was like. You would hear different genres come out of the different parts of the world. And you would hear that part of the world in that genre, you know.

[Chris]

I don't think any of the bands that we've listened to yet, when they formed, formed as heavy metal bands.

[Darren]

There was no word.

[Chris]

There was no such thing yet.

[Darren]

Yeah. I mean, some people call my band New Metal, but I remember when we were doing it, there was no such thing as that. I mean, I don't really consider us numa. I think we came out of that genre. I think it was just the time we were around. I think there's things about our music that might be there, but when it's happening. I'm sure the bands in Seattle weren't calling themselves grunge. No, it's the press after. Yeah, the press starts. Has to put a label on it in some way. So when did heavy metal start? I don't know. I wasn't around at this time. We're gonna move into a direction where I was actually alive. I wasn't alive yet during all this stuff. You gotta mention Kiss. Yeah. Rock and Roll. All night, Party Every day. But the energy, the look. Spikes. Black and silver. The theatrics. Because theatrics is a part of a lot of metal as well.

[Chris]

What would be a Kiss song that would be representative of their metal side?

[Darren]

I always thought Parasite was kind of heavy.

[Chris]

Let's hear that.

[Sam]

She'd always be that smile to grab a hole she thought she knew that, but she didn't know. That I was that. I wanted her to go. Parasite lady Parasite, Parasite lady no need to cry.

[Darren]

It's the image of the demon the fire breathing the blood that was huge. To the kids that grew up with that and then started bands was huge for me. I mean, I was three years old, three or four years old when I first saw Kiss. It scared the shit out of me.

[Chris]

But you liked it.

[Darren]

But it just. I was just obsessed with it. I couldn't stop looking at it. Never heard a song yet, even at that point, Dude, I just had just the image. Just the image, just seeing them. Maybe Kiss's music wasn't as heavy as what Black Sabbath was doing, but Black Sabbath didn't look like Kiss.

[Chris]

Kiss's image with Black Sabbath's music together matched.

[Darren]

Yeah, matched.

[Chris]

And that's what brought forth the next.

[Darren]

Wave of heavy metal, which people call the new wave of British heavy metal, which started happening mid to late 70s, into the 80s.

[Chris]

What bands would those be? Do you know?

[Darren]

Well, you know, you could start with bands like UFO, but they were still kind of in the mid-70s. You could say then Judas Priest.

[Chris]

Did Judas Priest start in the 70s? I think so.

[Darren]

Judas Priest was pretty early on. But then their changes happened through their sound in the early days, it started becoming the blues and the jazzy elements that the earlier bands had. These bands kind of didn't have that. A band like UFO had a great guitar player. They kind of. Their early couple records were kind of more psychedelic. But then you get into, say, a song like this one.

[Sam]

That.

[Darren]

That gallopy kind of thing. There's a little Led Zeppelin in that. That gallopy thing became a very Iron Maiden.

[Sam]

Better now, you know we'll never wait till tomorrow Nights out Lights out in London well tight till the end God knows when I'm coming up.

[Darren]

So Ben's like this. And I'm gonna gives the Scorpions some love. Heavy metal kind of wave song like the Sails of Chaon. So those are all English bands we were talking about. These guys came from Germany.

[Chris]

Scorpions had really metal album covers.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Chris]

If you would play this, I wouldn't be surprised. Wow.

[Darren]

I love the Scorpion.

[Chris]

I can see.

[Darren]

Oh, you hear it in my instrument.

[Chris]

Yeah, but I never heard that before. Very interesting.

[Darren]

Yuli Roth, amazing guitar player.

[Chris]

I didn't know. It was this original.

[Sam]

Sam. There is no light in the realm of the black magic man Sold flies into the cold flight on the destroyer's magic land. You sucking your own blood soon black magic dying, you better start crying.

[Chris]

Also has, like, an operatic vibe vocally.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Darren]

And kind of Arabic kind of guitar lines and stuff. So their sound kind of changed as it went on into the 80s. It became a little bit more poppy. They're known for, like, their rock ballads, which I love rock ballads. And Scorpions did some of the best rock ballads. You know, bands like Thin Lizzy, Heavy.

[Sam]

As hell.

[Darren]

This dual guitar thing they did. Our minis very employed with bands to come, like Judas Priest, Iron Maiden. They did these dual guitar solos then. Lizzy, I think, was one of the first.

[Sam]

Come on, baby, take my dream.

[Chris]

Still not metal. None of these bands, I don't think we would have called metal yet.

[Darren]

I don't think they would have called themselves metal exactly. But the kids that were listening to them, or the teenagers that were listening to them, that were about to be 18, 19, 20 years old and start bands.

[Chris]

The next set of bands.

[Darren]

Yeah. Going into the late 70s, new wave of British heavy metal bands like Judas Priest, you would say we're starting to take the blues out and then the imagery as well. Judas Priest also, I think, had a lot to do with the look of metal with the spikes and the stuff.

[Chris]

Which kissed it first, but they kind of made it their trip. And they weren't wearing makeup, they weren't playing monsters, they were playing themselves. Yeah, but they dressed like that.

[Darren]

Yeah. And a lot of that spike and stuff came out of the BDSM kind of imagery and that. That's kind of where that came from. So Kiss and Judas Priest, I would say, had a lot to do with that. Heavy metal spikes, black leather towards the late 70s, early 80s. And here's a Judas Priest song called Hell Bent for Levitt.

[Chris]

Stranglehold again.

[Darren]

Hey, Ted Nugent had probably something to do with this, too.

[Sam]

Seek him, seek him on the highway Never known that he'll appear Elvait and his to con over Hear the roar.

[Darren]

As they sense the fear Double kick.

[Sam]

Echoes of steel and the flash of light screams Form a streak of fire as he strikes Hell bent Helpant for letters Help it, help and.

[Darren]

There'S an emotion that heavy metal gives you, which is that fist in the air makes your face change into mean, grim face. It does to me, at least. I can't help myself sometimes.

[Sam]

One to the ground Help it, help and forever Help it, help and forever. There's many who tried to prove that they're faster, but they didn't last out. They died as they tried. Sa.

[Chris]

Are they the first band that we've listened to that had two guitar players then Lizzy did? That's definitely a difference.

[Sam]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Darren]

Dual guitar playing, dual solos.

[Chris]

Yeah. Trading off solos.

[Darren]

Trading off became a thing.

[Element Electrolytes Ad]

LMNT Element Electrolytes.

[Darren]

Have you ever felt.

[Element Electrolytes Ad]

Dehydrated after an intense workout or a long day in the sun? Do you want to maximize your endurance and feel your best? Add element electrolytes to your daily routine. Perform better and sleep deeper. Improve your cognitive function. Experience an increase in steady energy with fewer headaches and fewer muscle cramps. Element electrolytes Drink it in the sauna. Refreshing flavors include grapefruit, citrus, watermelon and chocolate salt. Formulated with the perfect balance of sodium, potassium and magnesium to keep you hydrated and energized throughout the day, these minerals help conduct the electricity that powers your nervous system so you can perform at your very best. Element electrolytes are sugar free, keto friendly and great tasting. Minerals are the stuff of life. So visit drinklmnt.com tetra and stay salty with element electrolyte. LMNT.

[Darren]

So we're at the new wave of British heavy metal, late 70s, early 80s. I start remembering at this time of my life, remembering the older kids at my school when I was elementary school, the shirts they used to wear. It was just all like, wow to me, man.

[Chris]

Like black T shirts with bands on them.

[Darren]

Band shirts at the time. Judas Priest.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Darren]

Iron Maiden, Ozzy. You know, Ozzy had separated from Black Sabbath at that point. I mean, early Aussie solo stuff. You can't deny Randy Rhodes guitar playing. I remember going to the record store with my mom and seeing the album cover for Speak of the Devil, which is a live album, but it's Aussie. And he has his mouth open. He has this in his mouth. I know it's like jelly or something, but. But at the time it was like, oh, Ozzy used to bite heads off bats and all that stuff. So you would think, oh, is that the head of the bat in my head? As a kid And I don't know, man. As a kid I was really young, man. I was like 5 years old, but I was like really into this.

[Chris]

Like.

[Darren]

To the point where my mom should have maybe been concerned, you know, But. But I was just really, really into this shit. And. And so we're also getting to the point where people are starting to accuse these bands of being devil worshipers.

[Chris]

Oh, yeah.

[Darren]

Which was also something that was appealing to me as a five year old. But I'm sure as like kids that were 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, whatever. I'm sure that was also something that was.

[Chris]

But do you think it was about the danger of it? It wasn't about actually worshiping the devil. It was more like it was this scary thing.

[Darren]

Taboo.

[Chris]

Yeah. And it embraced the dark side that everybody has some aspect of in them. It wasn't hiding it away. It was celebrating the dark side.

[Darren]

And you were like, are they. Were they. There's something like kind of. You know how wrestling has kayfabe? There's something kind of kayfabe.

[Chris]

Heavy metal and pro wrestling kind of work in the same way where there's. There's definitely a theatrical element to heavy metal.

[Darren]

Yeah. Like, you know, the kiss, the demon. What is. Is this guy really. He lives like this? Is this really his life? Does he walk around the street like this? You know, we didn't have the Internet back then. We didn't have social media where everybody sees the person's life and what they are off stage. And you know, in my head, Ozzy was like this, wow, dude. This guy was like, not even from this planet.

[Chris]

The fantasy aspect of it appealed to you. It's almost like they're cartoon characters. Yeah.

[Darren]

Like I imagined what they were like. Like this person is really like this all the time, you know? Or is this. I never even thought about like, oh, they're not like this. It was to. I was very young, so in my head they were fucking cartoon. I was still watching cartoons at this time in my life. You know, I would take my mom to the record store and the band started playing into the satanic thing. And Iron Maiden had Eddie, you know, the. The mascot. It was always like these evil album covers.

[Chris]

It was like a horror movie. Eddie would be like a horror movie character kind of.

[Darren]

Yeah. But I always wanted to get those albums. But I knew if I took those albums to my mom, she wouldn't buy them for me. So I would like try to go to this safer, like, you know, Def Leppard, Pyromania didn't have that on there. It had a building burning. But I had my way of getting those albums to me through like an older cousin or whatever. They would record them on a cassette that didn't have the album curse. So I still get to listen to like Dio Holy Diver. Because the. The album cover for that is like the devil has this priest in the chains and wow. You know, so there's you know, there's two singers in Iron Maiden, Paul Dano and Bruce Dickinson.

[Chris]

How low was Paul Diano?

[Darren]

Two albums.

[Chris]

First two albums.

[Darren]

First two albums. And I was gonna play a song from those records because if we're talking about the evolution and the new wave of British metal. Yeah, this was the beginning of it. Yeah. Judas Priest. But early Iron Maiden, I would consider. And later Iron Maiden, but it wasn't the new wave after that. This. This was kind of the new wave.

[Chris]

So the first singer is more like in line with the Judas Priest era of new metal.

[Darren]

Not necessarily. I'll let you hear it. I'll play Killers, which is the title track off their second album.

[Sam]

Me. Sam.

[Darren]

That gallop is signature to Iron Maiden. Sound.

[Sam]

A footstep behind you he landed Prepared for attack Scream for mercy he laughs as he's watching you bleed Killer behind you he butt lusted by his knees.

[Chris]

Two guitar players as well.

[Darren]

Yes. Actors. And now they have three. But.

[Sam]

My innocent victims are slaughtered with wrath and despise A marking religion of hatred that burns in the night I have no one about to destroy all this greed A place inside me compelling to satisfy me.

[Darren]

Dual guitar playing. And then the bass playing. Very specific to Iron Maiden as well. I mean, Steve Harris is pretty much like the main writer in the band.

[Chris]

The bass player.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Darren]

What are you not hearing, though? Blues.

[Chris]

No blues. No blues. No rock.

[Darren]

Nope.

[Chris]

It feels almost more. A little related to like classical.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Darren]

Starts going, you know. Yeah.

[Chris]

Solo's a little bluesy, but that's what guitar players did it at that time. But the riffs are not music at all. And there's nothing, Nothing about the groove that's bluesy. It's very Germanic.

[Darren]

Germanic, yeah. I'm playing this era of Iron Maiden because this was very raw. This was their beginning. Just the dirtier version of Iron maiden.

[Chris]

Still late 70s.

[Darren]

This starts getting into the early 80s. Here's another song from Iron Maiden called Phantom of the Opera. This is the album before Killers. This is the first Iron Maiden record. Self titled. It's amazing. Undeniable. So influential. Nobody was really doing this. This was as heavy, I think, as it got at this point of metal in the 80s.

[Chris]

And very straight. It's not psychedelic.

[Darren]

No, there is none of that. There's no blues. No, no psychedelic. It's aggressive but very musical.

[Sam]

We standing in the way Wednesday.

[Darren]

I mean, I learned how to play my guitar playing these songs in my room. Just trying to learn them, you know.

[Chris]

And would you play along?

[Darren]

Yeah. Another thing about Iron Maiden, different parts. Long Songs. This one is like a seven minute song and it goes on parts over, but it keeps you interested.

[Sam]

Away.

[Darren]

It's music that should be sat down and listened to.

[Chris]

It's not a pop song. You don't dance to it.

[Darren]

Well, you could, but, you know, heavy metal has its dances too, man. Mosh pit, head banging. That's the heavy metal dance. Probably head banging before the mosh, because I think the moshfit came from hardcore and punk. But just banging your head is the feeling you get when you're feeling this heavy emotion. It feels right. A lot of things are happening all at the same time that are making things what they are a year later, two years later. While all this is happening with the new wave of British heavy metal bands, you have punk rock. Punk rock and I think it's somewhat meshing together somewhere in the late 70s.

[Chris]

But the kids probably listen to both of those. I know I did. I listened to punk rock and heavy metal at the same time. And then when you started hearing like probably. Metallica was one of the first where it felt like this was different than what came before it.

[Darren]

I mean, you would. Motorhead.

[Chris]

Motorhead's in a class by themselves.

[Darren]

Yeah, I love Motorhead, so I never.

[Chris]

Thought of them as a descendant of punk rock, though. The punks loved Motorhead.

[Darren]

Yeah.

[Chris]

But it felt like they were Motorhead in spite of what anyone else was doing.

[Darren]

Yeah, it was really aggressive rock and roll in a way.

[Chris]

Yeah, like. Like hard biker rock.

[Darren]

Yeah. And let's be loud and let's be fast. Here's another band that Metallica covered called Diamondhead. You know, Metallica is a very influential band, obviously, but these are bands that influenced Metallica. Just like we're talking about bands that might influence Black Sabbath. These are bands that probably influenced Metallica and Slayer. You know, all the early thrash stuff, but there was no thrash yet. So this is Am I Evil? Metallica made famous. A lot of people didn't even know that it was a cover until you know that, like this is a band called Diamond Head.

[Chris]

And this rhythm goes back to Jeff Beck.

[Darren]

Yeah.

[Sam]

My mother was a witch she was burnt alive. For the tears I cried Take her down now don't wanna see your face Bless the rainbow can't have my mist face 27 everyone was nice Gotta see them make em pay the price See their bodies out on the eyes Take my time Am I evil? Yes I am Am I able? I am.

[Chris]

In the break between the two heavy parts of the song, there's a tapping guitar part.

[Darren]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Did Eddie Van Halen invent that or were other people already doing it?

[Darren]

Other people did it before Eddie Van Halen, but Eddie Van Halen made it his thing.

[Chris]

No one had done it like he had done it.

[Darren]

Nobody had done it like he had done it, you know. And once again, guitar players, Randy Rhodes, Eddie Van Halen, Yngwie Malmsteen, these guys all shaped how heavy metal guitar players, you know, before there was Jimmy Page and there was all those dudes from.

[Chris]

You know, more rooted in the blues.

[Darren]

These guys were more rooted in like neoclassical. That kind of also pushed the blues a little bit out of the guitar soloing. Because we just heard the early Iron Maiden stuff. But as you go into deeper Iron Maiden, you'll hear less of that bluesy stuff and it gets to be a little bit more minors and neoclassical, neoclassical types of vibes. So singers, influential guitar players that were influential, drummers who played more aggressively. As time went on, Double Kicks started coming into the situation more. I'd say faster. Double Kicks started probably coming into the situation in the early to mid-80s with Slayer, you know.

[Chris]

But that was really different than what like John Bonham or Keith Moon were doing, who were incredible at what they did. Yeah, but this was a different kind of great new drumming.

[Darren]

Those dudes were still. You could hear the jazz. You could hear. Which later on will come back in metal in some way. Jazz fusion drumming. But. But in the early 80s, I would say it was just this stiff kind of heavy beat. Solid. Keep things solid.

[Chris]

In the 80s was also when drum machines were getting popular, also when disco was kind of in the air. So, like, the idea of the heavy straight beat was kind of everywhere from drum machines and from disco. Metal doesn't sound like disco, but it is as hypnotic straight.

[Darren]

It's not loose.

[Chris]

Yeah. It's not like improvisational.

[Darren]

Yeah. Here's another band. I really like this. I like this song. It's a band called Holocaust. The song's called Death or Glory. I just feel around when same early 80s kind of time. You could say influenced heavier bands to come, but wasn't necessarily that just yet.

[Sam]

Heavy, I guess I'm walk going nowhere Best off with life don't want no good still on me Only love my night Wednesday I'm out of my own in a street Best girl I'll come on. No data they know I'm not all bad I know that nobody loves me don't make me sad Gonna stand up to the ones to break me down. I can feel it now Every day.

[Darren]

For the early 80s it's made you bang your head.

[Athletic Nicotine Ad]

In a world of artificial highs and harsh stimulants. There is something different, something clean, something precise. Athletic nicotine. Not the primitive products found behind convenience store counters. Not the aggressive buzz that leaves you jittery. But a careful calibration of clean energy and footage clarity. Athletic Nicotine the lowest dose tobacco free nicotine available. Made entirely in the usa. No artificial sweetness, just pure purposeful elevation. Athletic Nicotine is a performance nootropic. Athletic nicotine is a tool for shifting mindsets. Athletic Nicotine is a partner in pursuit of excellence. Slow release, low dose, gradual lift, sustained energy, soft landing, inspired results. Athletic Nicotine More focus, less static. Athletic Nicotine More clarity, less noise. Athletic Nicotine More accuracy, less anxiety. Athletic Nicotine. From top athletes pushing their limits to artists pursuing their vision. Athletic nicotine offers the lift you've been looking for. Learn [e-mail] Tetra and experience next level performance with athletic nicotine.

[Darren]

Warning. This product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

[Chris]

When you were a kid, did the other kids in your school all listen to heavy metal or was it unusual music?

[Darren]

Some older kids I would see that weren't my friends, I would just see that they were, they wore these shirts and stuff like that. My surrounding people, like my cousins that were like older cousins of mine, they hated heavy. I didn't really have anybody that was. I don't know what it is about this music that was just. I was just drawn to it. What sparked it was just I walked into a distant older cousin. People that aren't really like that closely related to me went to their house and they were teenagers. I was three or four years old, opened the door and I saw KISS all over their walls. As I got older, it was just something, you know, my mom would go to the grocery store and I would be at the magazine stand and I would be looking at all the heavy metal magazines and not really reading them, just looking at the pictures. You know, the funny thing is she'd always say, as long as it doesn't influence you too much.

[Chris]

It seems like it influenced you just.

[Darren]

Right, yeah, right.

[Chris]

It worked out.

[Darren]

You know, she's happy now. But look, I'm into a lot of different kinds of music, you know, that you and I always exchange, you know, send each other stuff. It's usually psychedelic music or world music or. I mean it's all over the board just like you. I have like a pretty broad taste, but heavy metal was my first spark, my first love, my first Thing that put me in my direction, you could say my roots.

[Chris]

And you play along with those records to get started growing up.

[Darren]

Yeah. Even though there was. I could say I love disco at the same time that I love this stuff too. Obviously, if you listen to my band, you hear more than heavy metal, for sure. And that's why people. Some people will be like, well, why is Darren talking about, like, extreme metal? Because he's not in an extreme metal band. But I grew up with this kind of music. I grew up with extreme metal. By the time I formed my own band, I wanted to do something original. I don't want to copy the bands, of course, you know, came before him. But I was very influenced by.

[Chris]

Yeah, Can't Help But Be.

[Darren]

Yeah. Everything that we're playing and stuff we haven't played yet are all things that someone as a fan of heavy metal. We're talking about like the evolution of heavy metal, but was also my evolution with heavy metal at the time that it was happening.

[Chris]

Yeah, you grew up with this music.

[Darren]

So get to some of the stuff that starts getting a little bit heavier in the early 80s, which is merciful Fate. I realize that King diamond is not for everybody because there are even metalheads. They're like, I don't know. I can't get into it. I can't get into the voice, whatever. I love King Diamond. I love Merciful Fate.

[Chris]

Yes.

[Darren]

Black Funeral.

[Sam]

Down. Your. With the.

[Darren]

Heavy as for that time. I love this. Right now I'm playing King diamond on Tetragramma.

[Sam]

No Hell. Now drinking now drink, drink. She was the face of my copper.

[Chris]

Tell me the story of Merciful Fate. What do you know about him?

[Darren]

They're from Denmark, I think. I don't know much about the history about, like, why he started singing like that. I think Ian Gillan was kind of a influence on him. But he just like, did Ian Gillen the whole.

[Chris]

Maybe do two a little bit.

[Darren]

It maybe they were around in the late 70s, but kind of this album and they have a few albums, but like the two classic ones are the first two.

[Chris]

And then King diamond went solo.

[Darren]

King diamond went solo. Merciful Fade has more of like a raw sound. It's kind of like if you compare early Iron Maiden to later Iron Maiden, it became a little bit more polished. Merciful Fate has a little bit more of that raw, late 70s, early 80s production sound. The riffs. King diamond stuff became, I'd say, you could say even more theatrical. The whole album had a theme like them was. The whole album was like a story but his style and I get it. Some people don't get it. But it's signature, though. He goes from high to. And it's just kind of like. Like, how do you. What made him, like, I don't know, how do you come up with singing like this? It's very unique. There is nobody before him or after him. It's just him that does this with the different voices and the different harmonies and the over the top high pitch thing. And then the makeup, like in Merciful Fate, there was like five dudes. The rest of them just looked like regular heavy metal dudes. And then there was him with the makeup and going back to satanic kayfabe.

[Chris]

Yes.

[Darren]

The other people, you were kind of like, maybe, maybe not. But this guy kind of convinced you that he was. And the way he talked and the way he explained it in these interviews and stuff like that made you think, oh, this. This guy's really a. A devil worship, where this guy's really satanic, which gave him this extra street cred kind of credibility that made it convincing. And I. And I think he has those beliefs to some have no idea degree.

[Chris]

It always sounded to me like a theater kid doing heavy metal, like, as an act. That's what sort of turned me off about it was it was theatrical to the point of parody.

[Darren]

If I remember correctly. I probably didn't like it the first time I heard it, which was not Merciful Fate for me. It was King diamond solo. But then I didn't like Slayer the first time I heard it.

[Chris]

Wow.

[Darren]

Because remember, I'm growing up with this kind of vocal.

[Chris]

Yes.

[Darren]

Iron Maiden, Dio, Ozzy Osbourne kind of vocal. When I first heard the vocals in Slayer, it was something that was brand new to me. But then I gave it another shot and it became like my favorite band.

[Chris]

When it's so different, the first reaction is not. For me, most of all, my favorite music I didn't like when I first heard it. It's too much.

[Darren]

Yeah.

[Chris]

But then when you really. I remember laughing at the Ramones when I heard it. It was ridiculous. Why would anybody play that fast?

[Darren]

It's like tasting a food for the first time.

[Chris]

Not have any point of reference.

[Darren]

Yeah, you don't have any reference. And it's kind of like you don't recognize it. But then you try it again and it's like for that next month, you're eating that food and you know, it becomes your favorite food.

[Chris]

Yeah. Okay. What would be a good example of King diamond as a solo artist?

[Darren]

For me, it was I love the album Them how old were you?

[Chris]

We think when it came out.

[Darren]

Them 1988. I was 13 years old. Song's called welcome Home.

[Sam]

Life is a dream Are you really. Let me help you I want to share with the grandma. Let me touch you Let me feel. Take a look. What do you think of the house of the silvery? We're going to re the frontal.

[Darren]

I mean, listen to how many voices he does.

[Sam]

Let me help you out of the chair. The good grandma. Let me touch you Let me feel.

[Darren]

This was kind of a big song. We used to come on Headbangers Ball and stuff.

[Chris]

Really?

[Darren]

Yeah, yeah. This was, I'd say the breakthrough song for his solo career. There was an album before this or two solo. So, you know, there's bands around this time, remember a band called Metal Church. People that were Metal Heads at that time were into Metal Church. Metal Church fucking was relevant. It's a band that's not talked about as much now. But at the time we would look forward to the new Metal Church album, you know, as young Metal Heads. This song is called Metal Church, subtitled on the. The first album.

[Chris]

You're the Black Sabbath influence.

[Darren]

You hear the Black Sabbath but you don't hear no blues. You don't hear no jazz.

[Sam]

Many, many years ago On a distant shore Meet together secretly beyond the hidden door to travel loudly from AB yes. It's the place they've chosen.

[Darren]

Like up until this Judas Priest Maiden all that stuff was the heavy stuff. Now we're getting into the mid-80s and this was happening around the same time as Slayer and Metallica.

[Chris]

Was there a name for this genre?

[Darren]

Some people would like. Would call it Power Metal.

[Chris]

Power Metal. It definitely sounds like an escalation on what came before it.

[Darren]

Yes. And it is.

[Chris]

You can hear it.

[Sam]

With me. Battle Touch on Holy Touch will be the sacrifice Battle Touch. The Holy Touch is qualified is right Men I'll try to lie you you can't from very far that'll just who you are, who you are.

[Darren]

It's mean riff.

[Chris]

Yeah. It's almost like thrash.

[Sam]

The.

[Chris]

But not the beat.

[Darren]

Yeah.

[Chris]

And not the vocals.

[Athletic Nicotine Ad]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Vocals are more like traditional metal.

[Darren]

Yes. So during this mid-80s time, the metal was getting kind of more aggressive. Because while we're listening to this, Metallica is putting out, you know, Kill Them all and Master Puppets and Slayers putting out show no Mercy and hello eight and Rain and Blood and all that stuff. Things were kind of getting more aggressive and faster. But then there was a. There was bands that were kind of taking it Back to the Black Sabbath thing and doing like a more doom metal thing. Like a band like Candlemass and this song called Demon's Gate. An ancient cathedral surrounded by hat Scared I was but with a hand on my Beatrix I went into the Demon. These guys kind of slowed it down while everyone else was going faster. I believe they're from Sweden.

[Sam]

Sam.

[Darren]

So this is considered doom metal.

[Chris]

Feels related to prog rock, but much darker.

[Darren]

Yes.

[Sam]

Across the sticks among the mists of Hades volcano Stone marks the bar.

[Darren]

The truth is you hear more Ian Gillan in vocals as time goes on than you do Ozzy. In some ways, those high pitched Ian Gillen things kind of stuck around with a lot of bands through the years and they built on it or just became like the head kind of thing. Another band, you could say that was doing this at this time when other bands were doing other things, was a band that I think you worked with called Trouble. Early Trouble had doom elements and more bands came and started there. A sub genre started through this stoner metal, some people like to call it.

[Chris]

Also more of these bands, the Splintering. After the Iron Maiden and Judas Priest, it started getting more independent. Like Iron Maiden and Judas Priest were on major labels.

[Darren]

Yeah.

[Chris]

You saw them at an arena when they came to play. These other bands were more like Road Runner, Metal Blade, like independent labels. And it was almost more of a punk rock aesthetic. Even though it was metal.

[Darren]

It was underground.

[Chris]

It was underground. Yeah.

[Darren]

I. A lot of these bands I would either find because I like the album cover, or the guy at the record store knew what I liked. And he would be like, check this out. It wasn't from mass marketing or.

[Chris]

Or MTV or mtv.

[Darren]

All Headbangers Ball at that time. You would find some bands that would play on Headbangers Ball that would only be played like after midnight on Headbangers Ball. Though it wasn't in the regular rotation of MTV at that time. The regular rotation of MTV was like the glam bands and the Guns and Roses. Yeah, the hair bands. Motley Crue. Look, man, early Motley Crew is, you could say, very influential too, and. Or like Shout of the Devil era. Motley Crew. There was some heaviness to that. It wasn't all bubblegum. It wasn't. You know, there was. The riffs were heavy, the imagery was satanic and kind of dark. I remember when I was a kid, I had the Motley Crue cassette. And in the back of the cassette it had written, if you play this record backwards, it plays Satan. I don't Know, it plays Backward Messenger. It's. They purposely wrote that because they wanted, you know, once again, satanic kayfabe. So, you know, as a seven, eight year old kid, I was like, oh, wow, this is something that, you know, I gotta hide from. From my mom. I don't want her to read that, you know. At this same time, though, you had more aggressive stuff that was a precursor to thrash.

[Chris]

What would be an example of that?

[Darren]

I wouldn't consider Discharge a heavy metal band, but Discharge definitely played influence influenced thrash music. So a song like this came out in the early 80s. Discharge, drunk with Power.

[Sam]

Sam.

[Darren]

It's really, really heavy for that time, man. Like, you would sit there and think, how are they doing this while all these other bands are doing that?

[Chris]

It's less music, it's more assault.

[Darren]

It's a repetitive riff. It's mesmerizing in some ways. It just. It stays the same. Every song. He has the same vocal approach. It's the same. It's a lot of the same vibe. This takes like the Ramones and all the footnotes, like, takes it to this other place. Such an original van. It. It baffles me on like, how are they doing this at this time? They formed in the late 70s and this was probably early 8. If you, like, heard this at that time, you would be like, what is.

[Chris]

This still now it sounds aggressive. Bands like the Bad Brains and Discharge definitely took it to a whole new level.

[Darren]

Level of intensity.

[Chris]

Yes.

[Darren]

That is. Still feels intense now. You know, you had these bands coming out in the early 80s that were not necessarily metal, but the same metal.

[Chris]

Kids might hear those and it might be one of the influences for sure. On Slayer, there was the influence of. In addition to Iron Maiden and Judas Priest, clearly the extreme punk rock was part of the.

[Darren]

Well, that's. They were fusing this with Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, Merciful Fate, and they were fusing the music and the riffs of that. But the intensity of this. But for me, you know, in punk rock, you have MC5 and the Stooges, right?

[Chris]

Yep.

[Darren]

You could say are like the precursors. Precursors to the Ramones and all that stuff. In Extreme Metal World. For me, sure, Discharge was a player in that, but you can't deny Motorhead, Heavy as Man Speed, because he was on Speed. You can put Discharge in this. You would, like, build them on the same gig and it would make sense. The intensity of it was there. Even though they probably wouldn't consider themselves in the same genre or whatever. But the vocals. He's not singing. He's got this same. Like the Discharge guy. I think at the time, metal and punk. People like the metal kids didn't really listen to punk and the punk kids didn't really listen to metal. But there was some bands that they could agree on and Motorhead was one of them.

[Sam]

Them?

[Chris]

Everyone liked Motorhead.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Most people in metal, if they knew about them, loved them. But they were a little more underground than the above ground metal stuff. Yeah.

[Darren]

Like we said, MC5 and the Stooges, Motorhead and Venom. Venom is a big deal, okay. In extreme music, influential on thrash, influential on black metal. They named black metal. The album was called Black Metal.

[Chris]

Really.

[Darren]

And the vocals of Venom. I remember Tom's brother John was my guitar tech for a long time and he would tell me that when Slayer started, they wanted to hear Tom sing more like Venom.

[Chris]

Wow.

[Darren]

And you hear it in. In early Slayer show no Mercy era. Really, you hear a lot of that Venom in the Slayer. But this is a song called Black Metal by. And also the production. The speed.

[Sam]

Energy, screams, Magic, dreams, Satan records Their best notes we time the bell Chaos in hell Metal convenience Pure fast enough Steel box, you in our wheels Road ham on Otis Secure Black metal Black metal Black metal.

[Darren]

This and a couple other bands were considered the first wave of black metal. Because black metal has another act coming in the early 90s, which is my favorite part of our story ever. I love black metal music. You could say black metal music got its name from that song. But if you want to hear how its influence on Slayer.

[Chris]

This could have.

[Darren]

Very well been a Venom song. Same kind of beat, right? Black metal.

[Sam]

Flashing our way through the boundaries of hell no one can stop us Tonight we take out the well with hatred and sty may have the reason we fight Surviving the slaughter the killings we're not us Then we return from the dead Attacking once more now with twice as free we can't rather move on ahead my world step by now this guy will take the soul.

[Darren]

But you can hear how this came from Venom.

[Chris]

The thing that this has that Venom doesn't is Dave Lombardo.

[Darren]

Yeah.

[Chris]

The thing about Dave Lombardo is no matter how fast it gets, it's always groovy.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Chris]

It never sounds like. It's always swinging.

[Darren]

I got a chance to once jam with Dave.

[Chris]

Could you feel it?

[Darren]

Dave is a different kind of drummer, man.

[Chris]

Totally different.

[Darren]

You can play one riff and Dave will change what he's playing and he will change your riff. The story with that is we were playing the whiskey ones. Dave was in our mosh Pit. So cool. And we had never met him before, and we were just playing, and I kind of was like, dude, that's Dave Lombardo in the fucking mosh pit. And I was like, oh, we have to meet him. We met him afterwards, and my first thing was like, dude, you gotta come to our. I was like, I gotta play with Dave Lombardo.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Darren]

And he came. He came to our studio, like, a week later or something like that. I don't know if he remembers this, but I do. It was great.

[Chris]

I'm sure he does.

[Sam]

And we. We didn't.

[Darren]

It wasn't even like. At first, we weren't playing songs, which I was just, like, riffing, just jamming, just free jamming, which a lot of metal guys can't do, you know, and he just free jam. And it was just, like, going from one thing to another. But one thing I noticed was, like, I could just sit there and play a riff, and this guy was changing the things he was playing. And I didn't have to change anything, but he was just changing the vibe of the riff.

[Chris]

Yeah, it made, like, the riff into three parts. Without changing the riff.

[Darren]

Yeah, without doing anything. So the hype on Dave is definitely well deserved for me.

[Chris]

It's like, that feel of. It's groovy. And most drummers, the faster you get, the less groovy it gets. It gets more stiff, more straight. Yeah, But Dave's always swinging.

[Darren]

He's special. He's a special drummer.

[Chris]

I always felt like that's what separated Slayer from all the other speed metal bands, was just the way Dave played. I love, obviously, the songwriting and Slayer regardless, but the feel of it was always what drew me energetically to Slayer.

[Darren]

The group, his fills, the fills that he would play on later albums like that was kind of very straightforward, raw. Slayer, that. I'm kind of playing these albums from these bands that some of these bands changed along the way, but I'm playing their early versions of this band. Like, I just played that song from Slayer because I wanted to. I wanted to set that song up with the Venom.

[Chris]

Yeah. See the connection.

[Darren]

So you can. Yeah, so you can see the connection of how Venom inspired that.

[Chris]

Yes.

[Darren]

So I see Venom being an influence on Slayer when I hear that sound, but then I hear Motorhead being a key influence for Metallica and making that Motorhead drive with more of the metal kind of riffs and early Metallica. Well, Motor Breath, You can't. With early Metallica. I mean, it is what it is. Motorhead drive, you know.

[Sam]

Living and dying, laughing and Crying once you have seen it Let me be the same Life isn't a fast lane the sound seats pardon and save me it's dirty in me Most I've rest I can't take.

[Darren]

It any other way.

[Sam]

Take a breath away. Breath. Away.

[Darren]

I mean, what is this? 82, 83. Heavy as clock. Anyone who heard this for the first time at that time was blown away. Or it was too heavy for them. Like, some people wouldn't get it because it's too fast, too crazy.

[Chris]

What I hear different about that than Motorhead, let's say, is there's a technical proficiency.

[Darren]

Yes.

[Chris]

With Motorhead, it's superpower. Slurp.

[Darren]

Yeah. Distorted bass.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Chris]

But James's riffing. Strumming. Really tight. It's so tight. And that's very different than whatever punk rock roots they might have.

[Darren]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Punk rock really sounds technically tight. It's just a different thing. Yeah. And the skipping also. It's like. It's not just straight fast. It's.

[Darren]

It's not open chords either. It's muted guitars. People call the genre Junt now, which I. I don't really like that junk because it's like a whole thing that's after my time, to be honest. Like, it's metal. Yeah. Younger. Younger metal heads have, like, you know, bands they call Junt, but it's got the junt. But you also have to think the guitar tone was more of compressed kind of guitar tone. It wasn't your regular.

[Chris]

It's more percussive, really.

[Darren]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not that rock tone anymore that starts becoming the heavy metal tone. So when you mute your guitars, there's just, like, bass behind it. There's this tightness behind it. You start seeing that at this time.

[Chris]

Do you remember when you first heard Metallica?

[Darren]

I remember exactly where I was, but I didn't know that it was Metallica. Some kids in a parking lot when we were take. When we were on a trip to Lake Arrowhead, and I heard Faster, Faster in my head, out of their car, coming up. And I was like, into metal. But I was like, what is this song? Faster, faster. I didn't know they were saying master, master. And then it wasn't until I ran into the cassette and accidentally played the song, and I was like, oh, my God, it's that. Faster, faster. But there's the Faster, Master. Tetragrammaton is a podcast. Tetragrammatin is a website. Tetragrammatin is a whole world of knowledge.

[Athletic Nicotine Ad]

What may fall within the sphere of Tetragrammaton Counterculture Tetragrammatin Sacred Geometry Tetragrammatin the Avant Garde Tetragrammatin Generative Art Tetragrammatin the Tarot Tetragrammatin out of Print Music Tetragrammaton Biodynamics Tetragrammatin Graphic Design Tetragrammatin Mythology and Magic Tetragrammatin Obscure Film Tetragrammatin Beach Culture Tetragrammatin Esoteric Lectures Tetragrammaton off the Grid Living Tetragrammatin Alt Spirituality Tetragrammatin the Canon of Fine Objects Tetragrammatin Muscle Cars Tetragrammatin Ancient wisdom for a new Age upon entering, experience the artwork of the day. Take a breath and see where you are drawn.

[Sam]

Tetragrammatin.com.