Episode Overview

Podcast: Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin
Episode: Daron Malakian - ON METAL (Part 2)
Release date: January 2, 2026
Main theme:
This episode is a deep, energetic exploration into the history and evolution of heavy metal, with Daron Malakian (System of a Down) and Rick Rubin guiding listeners from thrash and death metal to black metal, nu-metal, and beyond. Featuring personal anecdotes, musical analysis, and rich storytelling, the conversation details how metal pushed musical boundaries and transformed through new genres, technicality, atmosphere, and attitude.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Daron’s Early Metal Roots & Onstage with Metallica

• Garage Beginnings: Daron describes learning guitar by playing Metallica and Sabbath covers with school friends. Slayer was also an influence, but was less popular among his friends.
  • “We would play Metallica covers. That’s kind of a big part of how I learned how to play the guitar.” (00:24)
• First Big Break: Recounts being the unknown opener for Metallica’s Summer Sanitarium tour in 1999 before "Toxicity" was released.
  • “Nobody knows who System of a Down is at this point... we're the first band that opened. Up when people are walking in.” (01:40)
• Unplanned Moment: Due to James Hetfield’s (Metallica) injury, Daron volunteers to join Metallica onstage:
  • “Go tell their tech that I know a lot of their shit...Next thing you know, my tech goes and talks to her guitar tech... get handed a Les Paul. I think it was one of Kirk Hammett’s Les Pauls. And they’re like, all right, go. 60,000 people.” (02:33)
  • Sings "Master of Puppets" with Metallica, improvises an unrehearsed medley with Sanitarium.
  • “I’m up there with Metallica playing 'Master of Puppets' in front of 60,000 people.” (03:32)
  • “Who's going to sing? I'll go sing. And I sang.” (04:13)
• Recognition: Metallica’s crew thanks Daron for essentially saving the show.
  • “They were struggling. And then you got up, you did 'Master of Puppets'...You brought it that day.” (07:00)

The Evolution of Metal Genres

Bay Area Thrash & Beyond

• Discussion of Metallica’s evolution in sound, touching on influence from Iron Maiden, Motorhead.
  • “On the first album you heard more of the Motorhead... now you’re starting to hear more of the metal.” (11:01)
• Overkill, Exodus, Testament (East Coast and Bay Area), and German bands (Kreator, Destruction, Sodom) highlighted as influential but sometimes overlooked by history.
  • “Here’s a band that I really love from this era that kind of gets forgotten is a band called Overkill.” (11:32)
  • "I really used to love Kreator." (14:39)

From Thrash to Grindcore

• Daron and the hosts trace metal’s escalation to more extremity via bands like Slayer and England’s Napalm Death:
  • “There is an element of shock for sure in metal through the years. Whether it’s the lyrics... more extreme, more extreme, more extreme.” (19:26)
• Explores fusion of hardcore, punk, and metal into “grindcore” and early death metal—bands like Carcass, Brutal Truth, Repulsion, and the defining stylistic elements (blasting drums, technicality, aggressive vocals).
  • “Napalm Death is—you consider grindcore. But some people may say they were the first grindcore band.” (17:39)
  • “Vocals are not heavy metal vocals anymore... becomes more of—you’re not singing anymore. Sometimes punk phrasing.” (25:38)

Death Metal in Tampa, Florida

• Tampa’s pivotal role: bands like Death, Morbid Angel, Cannibal Corpse, Deicide, and Obituary.
  • “A lot of the classic death metal bands came out of Tampa, Florida.” (26:38)
• Possessed’s early influence, possibly naming the genre.
  • “Some people say were death metal before death metal...they even had a song called ‘Death Metal’.” (26:54)
• Evolution of Death as a band—progression from raw to technical and progressive sounds.
  • "Death is a really, really important band. Really important heavy metal band." (29:08)

Exploring Black Metal

First Wave: Venom, Hellhammer/Celtic Frost, Bathory

• Early 80s bands laying groundwork with lo-fi, Satanic, atmospheric, and aggressive music.
  • “Hellhammer was Celtic Frost before they were called Celtic Frost...You could even say the death metal bands were influenced by this.” (52:55, 53:24)
• Discussion of Bathory as an early black metal influence:
  • "This is Bathory... once again, early 80s." (58:08)

Second Wave: Norway’s Dark Turn

• Norwegian scene’s pushback against increasingly polished death metal. Black metal as an anti-mainstream, anti-polished rebellion focused on ugliness, darkness, and authenticity.
  • “These bands from Norway...start thinking what metal should be is what bands like Venom put down... it should be about darkness. It should be about Satanism. It should be ugly.” (60:06, 60:24)
• Legendary true-crime stories: Mayhem’s Dead, Euronymous, church burnings, murder—blurring reality and theatricality:
  • “So these kinds of crazy fucking stories start coming out of Norway.” (62:03)

Defining the Sound: Darkness & Lo-Fi Aesthetic

• Analysis of Darkthrone (“Transylvanian Hunger”), Mayhem (“Funeral Fog”), Burzum, and Immortal.
  • “One thing you’ll notice is the music is kind of beautiful...it’s melodic.” (63:50)
  • “The lo-fi aspect is really interesting. It makes you really have to listen to it... there’s this I-don’t-give-a-what-you-think vibe about it.” (65:31, 65:34)
• Descriptions of atmosphere, trance-like quality, hidden ‘secrets’ in the production, subtlety of genre differences.
  • “The melodies of the guitars...it brings pictures in your mind and it also matches where they come from.” (70:40)
• Difference between death and black metal:
  • “Completely different. This sounds like church music to me...but avant garde church music to some extent.” (83:41, 83:50)
• Visual presentation: corpse paint, Kiss/King Diamond/Celtic Frost influences.
  • “It’s very kind of inspired by Kiss, you could say. But the demons. It’s just different versions.” (86:34)
  • "They call it corpse paint." (86:51)
• Black metal’s intellectual side:
  • “Guys who play death metal, black metal, when you meet them...they are very intellectual people.” (85:28)

Groovy, Industrial and Nu Metal

Groove Metal/Industrial Fusion

• Pantera’s role as a bridge with “groove metal” (song: “A New Level”), inspiring modern metal’s incorporation of funkier, bouncier rhythms.
  • “I was very inspired by bands like this...When I get to the point where I'm doing what I'm doing, what can I do that's new?” (89:03)
• Bands like Ministry, Skinny Puppy, Killing Joke, and Nine Inch Nails mixed electronics and aggressive guitar for a new industrial/metal hybrid.
  • “They’re one of the first bands to bring in that industrial vibe, but give the heavy metal or punk rock flavor to it.” (92:43)
  • "Nine Inch Nails in this conversation." (98:27)
• Acknowledges grunge's takeover in the 90s, eclipsing earlier metal’s popularity.
  • "Grunge came and wiped out all of that." (106:32)

Nu Metal: Korn, Deftones, Slipknot — and System’s Place

• Nu metal's emergence as a heavy subgenre with groove, downtuned guitars, hip-hop elements. Korn as a groundbreaking force.
  • “The first time I heard Korn, I was like, this is something that’s heavy...but it's heavy in a way that's not done the way that I listened to heavy all these years.” (100:35)
• System of a Down’s uniqueness within the nu metal scene:
  • “I was trying to mix things with metal that even all these...why can't I mix the Beach Boys and the Beatles and all this stuff, and the Armenian music and Arabic music?” (108:06)
  • Emphasis on vocal harmonies, cited as rare in heavy genres.
  • "Nobody had vocal harmonies...Only System." (109:02)
• Industry skepticism before System’s breakout success.
  • "We will never play this band on our station. No matter what happens..." (109:41)
• Daron’s view of System as "avant garde" and "alternative metal," resisting labeling.
  • “We were all doing something original and mixing things with metal that weren’t being done before... I always saw System as a very avant garde, abstract kind of band.” (107:17, 109:09)
• On Slipknot, theatricality, masks, and influence:
  • "They're doing a lot of different stuff too... had the theatrical stage show...music was like, heavy. It wasn't just their look, it wasn't just the masks." (111:52-112:32)
  • Observes current "mask" trend in metal as possible new cliché.
  • "It's kind of like what hair metal used to be..." (113:18)

"Math Metal" and Technical Metal: New Frontiers

• Dillinger Escape Plan and Meshuggah are identified as technical, rhythmically complex “math metal” or “prague metal.”
  • “Prague Math Metal is what people start calling it.” (113:25)
  • “It’s hard to out-heavy Meshuggah.” (116:30)
• Technical proficiency, complex polyrhythms, but still with groove.
  • “It’s so groovy that you don’t lose it...Even though it’s complicated, that cymbal keeps it straightforward.” (118:20–118:44)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• The Metallica Moment
  • Daron: "I’m up there with Metallica playing 'Master of Puppets' in front of 60,000 people." (03:32)
  • Daron: "You would think we rehearsed it, but we didn’t." (04:19)
• On Black Metal’s Aura
  • Interviewer: "It sounds like we’re listening to it through a wall, you know, like it’s leaking through the sound coming from somewhere else." (64:42)
  • Interviewer: “It feels like it holds secrets I can get glimpses of, but it’s not available on the face.” (79:36)
• On Metal's Progression
  • Daron: “Metal, as with any music, evolves itself.” (11:24)
  • Daron: “You see how these bands all sound different from each other?” (41:05)
• On System’s Uniqueness
  • Daron: “From the beginning, I was trying to mix things with metal that… why can't I mix the Beach Boys and the Beatles and all this stuff, and the Armenian music and Arabic music…?” (108:06)
  • Interviewer: "I felt like System came up in the wave of new metal, but it sounded nothing like any of the other new metal bands." (107:57)
• On Death/Black Metal “Kayfabe”
  • Daron: "Once again, we're going into satanic kayfabe." (36:18)
  • Interviewer: "They're living the gimmick, as they say in wrestling." (36:31)
• On Black Metal's Darkness
  • Interviewer: “It’s kind of religious music, but the religion is Satanism.” (83:50)
  • Interviewer: “I hear like classical devotional church music in this.” (83:56)
• On Modern Metal's Technical Complexity
  • "Every riff is on a different one." (117:54)
  • "I once asked them [Meshuggah] ...what does your new album sound like? And they said, 'seasickness.'" (119:47)

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Topic/Quote | |-----------|-------------| | 00:24 | Daron's early garage years; learning via Metallica covers | | 02:33 | Getting invited onstage with Metallica, playing for 60k people | | 03:32 | Playing and singing "Master of Puppets" with Metallica | | 04:19 | Unrehearsed medley with Metallica—goosebumps moment | | 11:01 | Discussing the evolution of Metallica’s sound | | 17:39 | Exploring Napalm Death and the creation of Grindcore | | 26:38 | The Tampa death metal scene—Death, Morbid Angel, etc. | | 29:08 | Daron on Death’s importance and genre influence | | 52:25 | Black metal's Norwegian second wave, ethos of darkness | | 60:24 | Norwegian black metal: rebelling against “polished” death metal | | 62:03 | Mayhem, Euronymous, true crime in black metal lore | | 63:50 | The beauty and atmosphere of black metal (Darkthrone) | | 86:51 | Visual presentations: corpse paint’s origins | | 89:03 | Daron on groove metal and innovation | | 100:35 | Korn and the birth of nu-metal | | 108:06 | System’s hybrid influences—“why can’t I mix anything?” | | 109:41 | “We will never play this band” (initial industry reaction to System) | | 111:52 | On Slipknot’s impact—music, masks, and show | | 113:25 | Dillinger Escape Plan and prague/math metal | | 116:30 | Meshuggah’s heaviness; technical polyrhythms |

Episode Flow Chart

1. Daron’s story of playing with Metallica
2. Thrash metal’s legacy: Bay Area, Germany, East Coast
3. Rise of Grindcore: Napalm Death, Carcass, Repulsion
4. The Tampa, FL death metal explosion: Death, Morbid Angel, Cannibal Corpse et al
5. Death metal vs. Black metal: philosophy, sound, and scene
6. The dark roots of Black Metal: Norway, kayfabe, and true crime
7. Groove and industrial enter: Pantera, Ministry, Skinny Puppy, Nine Inch Nails
8. Nu-metal’s arrival: Korn, Deftones, System’s unique approach
9. Technical and math metal: Dillinger Escape Plan, Meshuggah
10. Daron’s reflections on innovation in metal and System’s legacy

Conclusion

This episode is a passionate, comprehensive journey through heavy metal’s transformations—musically, culturally, and philosophically. Daron Malakian’s stories (especially playing with Metallica) add heart and credibility, while Rick Rubin’s questioning steers the episode from obscure genre distinctions to the core creative impulses behind each wave. Listeners leave with a clearer understanding of how metal evolved, where genre lines blur, and why artists like Daron keep pushing boundaries.

The tone throughout is excited, reverent, sometimes humorous, and always deeply knowledgeable—a must-listen for metal aficionados and music history fans alike.