Daron Malakian - ON METAL (Part 2)

Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin
Episode: Daron Malakian - ON METAL (Part 2)
Release date: January 2, 2026
Main theme:
This episode is a deep, energetic exploration into the history and evolution of heavy metal, with Daron Malakian (System of a Down) and Rick Rubin guiding listeners from thrash and death metal to black metal, nu-metal, and beyond. Featuring personal anecdotes, musical analysis, and rich storytelling, the conversation details how metal pushed musical boundaries and transformed through new genres, technicality, atmosphere, and attitude.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Daron’s Early Metal Roots & Onstage with Metallica

• Garage Beginnings: Daron describes learning guitar by playing Metallica and Sabbath covers with school friends. Slayer was also an influence, but was less popular among his friends.
  • “We would play Metallica covers. That’s kind of a big part of how I learned how to play the guitar.” (00:24)
• First Big Break: Recounts being the unknown opener for Metallica’s Summer Sanitarium tour in 1999 before "Toxicity" was released.
  • “Nobody knows who System of a Down is at this point... we're the first band that opened. Up when people are walking in.” (01:40)
• Unplanned Moment: Due to James Hetfield’s (Metallica) injury, Daron volunteers to join Metallica onstage:
  • “Go tell their tech that I know a lot of their shit...Next thing you know, my tech goes and talks to her guitar tech... get handed a Les Paul. I think it was one of Kirk Hammett’s Les Pauls. And they’re like, all right, go. 60,000 people.” (02:33)
  • Sings "Master of Puppets" with Metallica, improvises an unrehearsed medley with Sanitarium.
  • “I’m up there with Metallica playing 'Master of Puppets' in front of 60,000 people.” (03:32)
  • “Who's going to sing? I'll go sing. And I sang.” (04:13)
• Recognition: Metallica’s crew thanks Daron for essentially saving the show.
  • “They were struggling. And then you got up, you did 'Master of Puppets'...You brought it that day.” (07:00)

The Evolution of Metal Genres

Bay Area Thrash & Beyond

• Discussion of Metallica’s evolution in sound, touching on influence from Iron Maiden, Motorhead.
  • “On the first album you heard more of the Motorhead... now you’re starting to hear more of the metal.” (11:01)
• Overkill, Exodus, Testament (East Coast and Bay Area), and German bands (Kreator, Destruction, Sodom) highlighted as influential but sometimes overlooked by history.
  • “Here’s a band that I really love from this era that kind of gets forgotten is a band called Overkill.” (11:32)
  • "I really used to love Kreator." (14:39)

From Thrash to Grindcore

• Daron and the hosts trace metal’s escalation to more extremity via bands like Slayer and England’s Napalm Death:
  • “There is an element of shock for sure in metal through the years. Whether it’s the lyrics... more extreme, more extreme, more extreme.” (19:26)
• Explores fusion of hardcore, punk, and metal into “grindcore” and early death metal—bands like Carcass, Brutal Truth, Repulsion, and the defining stylistic elements (blasting drums, technicality, aggressive vocals).
  • “Napalm Death is—you consider grindcore. But some people may say they were the first grindcore band.” (17:39)
  • “Vocals are not heavy metal vocals anymore... becomes more of—you’re not singing anymore. Sometimes punk phrasing.” (25:38)

Death Metal in Tampa, Florida

• Tampa’s pivotal role: bands like Death, Morbid Angel, Cannibal Corpse, Deicide, and Obituary.
  • “A lot of the classic death metal bands came out of Tampa, Florida.” (26:38)
• Possessed’s early influence, possibly naming the genre.
  • “Some people say were death metal before death metal...they even had a song called ‘Death Metal’.” (26:54)
• Evolution of Death as a band—progression from raw to technical and progressive sounds.
  • "Death is a really, really important band. Really important heavy metal band." (29:08)

Exploring Black Metal

First Wave: Venom, Hellhammer/Celtic Frost, Bathory

• Early 80s bands laying groundwork with lo-fi, Satanic, atmospheric, and aggressive music.
  • “Hellhammer was Celtic Frost before they were called Celtic Frost...You could even say the death metal bands were influenced by this.” (52:55, 53:24)
• Discussion of Bathory as an early black metal influence:
  • "This is Bathory... once again, early 80s." (58:08)

Second Wave: Norway’s Dark Turn

• Norwegian scene’s pushback against increasingly polished death metal. Black metal as an anti-mainstream, anti-polished rebellion focused on ugliness, darkness, and authenticity.
  • “These bands from Norway...start thinking what metal should be is what bands like Venom put down... it should be about darkness. It should be about Satanism. It should be ugly.” (60:06, 60:24)
• Legendary true-crime stories: Mayhem’s Dead, Euronymous, church burnings, murder—blurring reality and theatricality:
  • “So these kinds of crazy fucking stories start coming out of Norway.” (62:03)

Defining the Sound: Darkness & Lo-Fi Aesthetic

• Analysis of Darkthrone (“Transylvanian Hunger”), Mayhem (“Funeral Fog”), Burzum, and Immortal.
  • “One thing you’ll notice is the music is kind of beautiful...it’s melodic.” (63:50)
  • “The lo-fi aspect is really interesting. It makes you really have to listen to it... there’s this I-don’t-give-a-what-you-think vibe about it.” (65:31, 65:34)
• Descriptions of atmosphere, trance-like quality, hidden ‘secrets’ in the production, subtlety of genre differences.
  • “The melodies of the guitars...it brings pictures in your mind and it also matches where they come from.” (70:40)
• Difference between death and black metal:
  • “Completely different. This sounds like church music to me...but avant garde church music to some extent.” (83:41, 83:50)
• Visual presentation: corpse paint, Kiss/King Diamond/Celtic Frost influences.
  • “It’s very kind of inspired by Kiss, you could say. But the demons. It’s just different versions.” (86:34)
  • "They call it corpse paint." (86:51)
• Black metal’s intellectual side:
  • “Guys who play death metal, black metal, when you meet them...they are very intellectual people.” (85:28)

Groovy, Industrial and Nu Metal

Groove Metal/Industrial Fusion

• Pantera’s role as a bridge with “groove metal” (song: “A New Level”), inspiring modern metal’s incorporation of funkier, bouncier rhythms.
  • “I was very inspired by bands like this...When I get to the point where I'm doing what I'm doing, what can I do that's new?” (89:03)
• Bands like Ministry, Skinny Puppy, Killing Joke, and Nine Inch Nails mixed electronics and aggressive guitar for a new industrial/metal hybrid.
  • “They’re one of the first bands to bring in that industrial vibe, but give the heavy metal or punk rock flavor to it.” (92:43)
  • "Nine Inch Nails in this conversation." (98:27)
• Acknowledges grunge's takeover in the 90s, eclipsing earlier metal’s popularity.
  • "Grunge came and wiped out all of that." (106:32)

Nu Metal: Korn, Deftones, Slipknot — and System’s Place

• Nu metal's emergence as a heavy subgenre with groove, downtuned guitars, hip-hop elements. Korn as a groundbreaking force.
  • “The first time I heard Korn, I was like, this is something that’s heavy...but it's heavy in a way that's not done the way that I listened to heavy all these years.” (100:35)
• System of a Down’s uniqueness within the nu metal scene:
  • “I was trying to mix things with metal that even all these...why can't I mix the Beach Boys and the Beatles and all this stuff, and the Armenian music and Arabic music?” (108:06)
  • Emphasis on vocal harmonies, cited as rare in heavy genres.
  • "Nobody had vocal harmonies...Only System." (109:02)
• Industry skepticism before System’s breakout success.
  • "We will never play this band on our station. No matter what happens..." (109:41)
• Daron’s view of System as "avant garde" and "alternative metal," resisting labeling.
  • “We were all doing something original and mixing things with metal that weren’t being done before... I always saw System as a very avant garde, abstract kind of band.” (107:17, 109:09)
• On Slipknot, theatricality, masks, and influence:
  • "They're doing a lot of different stuff too... had the theatrical stage show...music was like, heavy. It wasn't just their look, it wasn't just the masks." (111:52-112:32)
  • Observes current "mask" trend in metal as possible new cliché.
  • "It's kind of like what hair metal used to be..." (113:18)

"Math Metal" and Technical Metal: New Frontiers

• Dillinger Escape Plan and Meshuggah are identified as technical, rhythmically complex “math metal” or “prague metal.”
  • “Prague Math Metal is what people start calling it.” (113:25)
  • “It’s hard to out-heavy Meshuggah.” (116:30)
• Technical proficiency, complex polyrhythms, but still with groove.
  • “It’s so groovy that you don’t lose it...Even though it’s complicated, that cymbal keeps it straightforward.” (118:20–118:44)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• The Metallica Moment
  • Daron: "I’m up there with Metallica playing 'Master of Puppets' in front of 60,000 people." (03:32)
  • Daron: "You would think we rehearsed it, but we didn’t." (04:19)
• On Black Metal’s Aura
  • Interviewer: "It sounds like we’re listening to it through a wall, you know, like it’s leaking through the sound coming from somewhere else." (64:42)
  • Interviewer: “It feels like it holds secrets I can get glimpses of, but it’s not available on the face.” (79:36)
• On Metal's Progression
  • Daron: “Metal, as with any music, evolves itself.” (11:24)
  • Daron: “You see how these bands all sound different from each other?” (41:05)
• On System’s Uniqueness
  • Daron: “From the beginning, I was trying to mix things with metal that… why can't I mix the Beach Boys and the Beatles and all this stuff, and the Armenian music and Arabic music…?” (108:06)
  • Interviewer: "I felt like System came up in the wave of new metal, but it sounded nothing like any of the other new metal bands." (107:57)
• On Death/Black Metal “Kayfabe”
  • Daron: "Once again, we're going into satanic kayfabe." (36:18)
  • Interviewer: "They're living the gimmick, as they say in wrestling." (36:31)
• On Black Metal's Darkness
  • Interviewer: “It’s kind of religious music, but the religion is Satanism.” (83:50)
  • Interviewer: “I hear like classical devotional church music in this.” (83:56)
• On Modern Metal's Technical Complexity
  • "Every riff is on a different one." (117:54)
  • "I once asked them [Meshuggah] ...what does your new album sound like? And they said, 'seasickness.'" (119:47)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Topic/Quote | |-----------|-------------| | 00:24 | Daron's early garage years; learning via Metallica covers | | 02:33 | Getting invited onstage with Metallica, playing for 60k people | | 03:32 | Playing and singing "Master of Puppets" with Metallica | | 04:19 | Unrehearsed medley with Metallica—goosebumps moment | | 11:01 | Discussing the evolution of Metallica’s sound | | 17:39 | Exploring Napalm Death and the creation of Grindcore | | 26:38 | The Tampa death metal scene—Death, Morbid Angel, etc. | | 29:08 | Daron on Death’s importance and genre influence | | 52:25 | Black metal's Norwegian second wave, ethos of darkness | | 60:24 | Norwegian black metal: rebelling against “polished” death metal | | 62:03 | Mayhem, Euronymous, true crime in black metal lore | | 63:50 | The beauty and atmosphere of black metal (Darkthrone) | | 86:51 | Visual presentations: corpse paint’s origins | | 89:03 | Daron on groove metal and innovation | | 100:35 | Korn and the birth of nu-metal | | 108:06 | System’s hybrid influences—“why can’t I mix anything?” | | 109:41 | “We will never play this band” (initial industry reaction to System) | | 111:52 | On Slipknot’s impact—music, masks, and show | | 113:25 | Dillinger Escape Plan and prague/math metal | | 116:30 | Meshuggah’s heaviness; technical polyrhythms |

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Episode Flow Chart

1. Daron’s story of playing with Metallica
2. Thrash metal’s legacy: Bay Area, Germany, East Coast
3. Rise of Grindcore: Napalm Death, Carcass, Repulsion
4. The Tampa, FL death metal explosion: Death, Morbid Angel, Cannibal Corpse et al
5. Death metal vs. Black metal: philosophy, sound, and scene
6. The dark roots of Black Metal: Norway, kayfabe, and true crime
7. Groove and industrial enter: Pantera, Ministry, Skinny Puppy, Nine Inch Nails
8. Nu-metal’s arrival: Korn, Deftones, System’s unique approach
9. Technical and math metal: Dillinger Escape Plan, Meshuggah
10. Daron’s reflections on innovation in metal and System’s legacy

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Conclusion

This episode is a passionate, comprehensive journey through heavy metal’s transformations—musically, culturally, and philosophically. Daron Malakian’s stories (especially playing with Metallica) add heart and credibility, while Rick Rubin’s questioning steers the episode from obscure genre distinctions to the core creative impulses behind each wave. Listeners leave with a clearer understanding of how metal evolved, where genre lines blur, and why artists like Daron keep pushing boundaries.

The tone throughout is excited, reverent, sometimes humorous, and always deeply knowledgeable—a must-listen for metal aficionados and music history fans alike.

Transcript

[Host]

Tetragrammaton.

[Daron Malakian]

So when I was like 12 or 13 at that point, I had been playing the guitar for like a year. I was with these guys in my school that we would. In their dad's garage. We would play Metallica covers. That's pretty much all we play a bunch of Metallica covers. And that's kind of a big part of how I learned how to play the guitar. Was playing either Sabbath, Metallica, Maiden, sometimes Slayer. My friends really didn't get Slayer, but they loved Metallica.

[Interviewer 1]

Understood.

[Daron Malakian]

But I loved Slayer, and I would fight with them over it. But we would play these Metallica covers. So I knew all these Metallica covers. As, you know, when I got older, I knew them. And so we were on tour with Metallica on the Summer Sanitarium tour. I met Metallica on stage, really playing with them. I never met them before.

[Interviewer 2]

Wow.

[Daron Malakian]

We're the first band. Nobody knows us. It's 1999, maybe at this point. Toxicity's not out yet. Yet. We're on our first album, and we are on the Summer sanitarium tour. It's US band called Powerman 5000. Kid Rock was on there. I think Corn was on there. And Metall was like five bands on the bill. We were the first band that opened.

[Interviewer 1]

Up when people are walking in.

[Daron Malakian]

Yeah. Yeah. Nobody knows who System of A Down is at this point. And so we're on that tour and James Hetfield along the way gets injured. I don't know. They told me he was going water skiing or something and they got injured. So they didn't cancel the show. So all the opening bands played, and then Metallica still went on stage and Jason News was singing. And then they brought the guys from Corn on and they kind of played like this Chichen Chong cover song or something. It was like they didn't know what to do.

[Interviewer 1]

Yeah.

[Daron Malakian]

Because James wasn't there. And I turned to my tech and I go, listen, man. I go, go tell their tech that I know a lot of their shit because I learned it playing it in this garage with these other guys. I go, I know a lot of their shit from. You could say justice for All. And back.

[Interviewer 1]

Yeah.

[Daron Malakian]

Next thing you know, my tech goes and talks to her guitar tech. And then my tech comes back to me, like, all right, come with me. Never met Metallica before. And I'm telling you, Metallica was the first concert I ever went to in my life. Like, I was a huge Metallica.

[Interviewer 1]

Where you see him play?

[Daron Malakian]

For sure. At the Irvine Meadows.

[Interviewer 1]

Amazing.

[Daron Malakian]

Yeah. Faith no More opened Up for them. Justice for all tour.

[Interviewer 1]

Yeah.

[Daron Malakian]

So next thing you know, I go on the other side of the stage, I get handed a Les Paul. I think it was one of Kirk Hammett's Les Paul's. And they're like, all right, go. 60,000 people.

[Interviewer 1]

That's so wild.

[Daron Malakian]

Yeah, 60,000 people. I'm in my after show. I'm wearing a Lakers fucking sweats. I'm wearing, like. I'm not even ready to, like, get on stage. I'm wearing a white tank top and a Lakers sweats. And I'm just completely. Was there just watching Metallica, you know?

[Interviewer 2]

Yeah.

[Daron Malakian]

Next thing you know, I get handed a guitar and they go, go. You gotta understand, our band's not big yet. I'm still a kid. I'm 22 years old. I can't even believe that we're even allowed to open up for Metallica. Of course. So this is all new to me. Yes. At this point of my life. And they put me out there, and I turn and I'm like, hey, it's Lars. It's Kurt. It's Jason. Newsted was the bass player at the time. They're like, what do you know? Like, I don't know. Master of Puppets. Okay, count it in. We're playing Master Puppets. I'm like, I'm up there with Metallica playing Master of Puppets in front of 60,000 people.

[Interviewer 1]

Unbelievable.

[Daron Malakian]

And I'm like, who's going to sing? And I said it. I'll go sing.

[Interviewer 1]

And you sang it.

[Daron Malakian]

And I sang.

[Interviewer 1]

Amazing.

[Daron Malakian]

And then there's this thing that happened where in the middle of Master of Puppets, it has this slow part. Instead of going into that slow part, they went into Sanitarium. And I didn't know they were gonna do that. And we went in and we did the middle part of Sanitarium and then came out of it and went back into Mass. I mean, you would think we rehearsed it, but we didn't rehearse it.

[Interviewer 1]

And you didn't even know what was gonna happen.

[Daron Malakian]

I didn't even know it was gonna happen. And it happened. And I'm up there and I'm playing Metallica with Metallica in front of an audience where I would have been in the cheap seats just three years ago. You know, I would have been in the last row.

[Interviewer 1]

It's unbelievable.

[Daron Malakian]

And then, I don't know, somewhere down, like, I got off stage.

[Interviewer 1]

Yeah.

[Daron Malakian]

And next thing you know, they're coming to me. They're like, hey, dude, James isn't going to be able to play for a few nights. They want you to come and play with them. Like everything.

[Interviewer 1]

That is wild.

[Daron Malakian]

And next thing you know, Kirk Hammett's in front of me with a guitar and I go, abra, I know all your old stuff, but I don't really know the load and reload and all that stuff. So Kurt's trying to teach me stuff, upload. And then next thing you know, they're like, hey, get your from your bus, cuz you're flying on the private jet with us now.

[Interviewer 1]

So you actually were in Metallica for this window.

[Daron Malakian]

So the first plan was to have me play a whole set with them.

[Interviewer 1]

Yes.

[Daron Malakian]

And I was preparing for that and I was learning, relearning all the old stuff and trying to learn all the load stuff. And then by the time we got. And so I flew with them and everything. And then I. And then they decided, hey, it would be a cooler thing if we invited different band members from. Of course, from the different bands that were on the gig.

[Interviewer 1]

Yes.

[Daron Malakian]

So the next night I was up on stage with Metallica again. And I knew I was supposed to play one, and I got there and I, you know, was ready to play one. And I turned to. I forgot maybe Jason or Kirk or someone. And I'm like, who's gonna sing? Because I had no idea. Of course they turned to me and they're like, bob. And I'm like, who the fuck is Bob? And I see. And I see Kid Rock come up. And I didn't know Kid Rock's name was Bob.

[Interviewer 1]

That's so funny.

[Daron Malakian]

And so Kid Rock comes up and he sings the first night and we did one, and it's really fucking cool because one has the whole. And I'm like thinking, dude, you're playing this shit with fucking Metallica. You're turning around and it's like, lar.

[Interviewer 1]

That would be completely surreal.

[Daron Malakian]

It was crazy. I'll never forget it. And even after that, like the. Their texts would come up to me, like in different tours and be like, dude, don't think we forgot what you did. You brought it that day. I don't want to say like you saved the show, but they were kind of like, you. You fucking brought it. They were struggling. And then you got up, you did Master of Puppets and.

[Interviewer 2]

Wow.

[Daron Malakian]

Yeah, man. Like, that. That happened. That's. That's as a kid growing up and, you know, I'm telling all these things.

[Interviewer 1]

All these bands, and you're not in a popular band yet.

[Daron Malakian]

Nope. System now ain't yet.

[Interviewer 2]

That's Wild.

[Daron Malakian]

Yeah.

[Interviewer 1]

What a cool experience.

[Daron Malakian]

Oh, man. I'll never forget it. Even though my band is where we're at right now.

[Interviewer 1]

Yeah.

[Daron Malakian]

It still brings, like, goosebumps to my. That I had a chance to experience that at that point of my career.

[Interviewer 1]

And being such a fan of them.

[Daron Malakian]

Huge fan.

[Interviewer 1]

It's so cool. Yeah, it's so cool. It's like living a dream.

[Daron Malakian]

Yeah.

[Interviewer 1]

It was amazing.

[Daron Malakian]

It was.

[Interviewer 1]

Let's hear masterpupta's.

[Interviewer 3]

At this point. We're in 1986. I'm 11 years old.

[Daron Malakian]

So this was.

[Interviewer 3]

My introduction to brash.

[Interviewer 2]

Into passion play. Bumbling away I'm your source of self destruction Painted pop with fear sucking darkest clear Leaning on your desk Construction takes me you will see More is all you need Dedicated to how I'm killing you. Controlling master Obey your master your life burns faster Obey your master.

[Guest Vocalist]

Master, Master.

[Interviewer 2]

And puppets are pulling your strings Twisting your mind and smashing your dreams Standing by me you can't see the name.

[Guest Vocalist]

Just call my name.

[Interviewer 2]

Cause I hear scream Cause I scream.

[Interviewer 3]

So during this time, there was a whole thing happening in the Bay Area with Bay Area thrash. They came from the Bay Area.

[Interviewer 2]

Mirror Pain monopoly Ritual misery Jump your breakfast on a mirror.

[Interviewer 1]

The difference between that song and the first Metallica song we listened to was in the early Metallica, you could hear more of, like, the Iron Maiden influence. Whereas this doesn't sound like any of the old metals. It's like they found their voice.

[Daron Malakian]

Yeah. And a little bit more polished, you could say. As well as it went on, the first album was a little bit more raw. You heard more of the Motorhead there. Now you're starting to hear more of the metal.

[Interviewer 1]

But the first one we listened to, the vocals sounded more derivative, and on that one, they sounded more like what we know Metallica sounds like.

[Daron Malakian]

Yeah. Like I said, a lot of these bands evolve themselves. Yeah. Into other things.

[Interviewer 1]

Absolutely.

[Daron Malakian]

Here's a band that I really love from this era that kind of gets forgotten is a band called Overkill.

[Interviewer 3]

Not Bay Area. They're from the east coast.

[Sponsor Voice]

But I.

[Interviewer 3]

Remember them being a really big deal for me when I was in my teenage years.

[Interviewer 2]

Now take your sight Leave your blind Laughing hard as you lose your mind Let you down because it rains that's all over was enough Are you in danger? The welcome sa you deny the cross A living danger the welcome stranger you deny the p. Night of cross.

[Sponsor Voice]

And.

[Interviewer 1]

The fast double kick drum.

[Interviewer 3]

Yeah, all that's starting to happen. Tight riffs with the hardcore energy, but with the tight ribs, like metallic More speed metal, maybe. I mean, you would either call it thrash or speed metal. That was the word that we used to use.

[Daron Malakian]

There was Exodus, there was Testament.

[Interviewer 3]

Then you had German band that Creator, Destruction, Sodom. Those are like the three German bands that were kind of around the same time as this was happening.

[Interviewer 1]

Who's your favorite of those?

[Daron Malakian]

I really used to love Creator.

[Interviewer 1]

Could we hear them.

[Guest Vocalist]

Now?

[Interviewer 3]

You got some vocals doing some shit here that is a little ahead of this time as well.

[Interviewer 2]

Try to run behind Run the Dance.

[Guest Vocalist]

Kill with the Enemy.

[Interviewer 3]

I remember I'd be sitting in the car with my parents and I would tell them, put this on. And I'd be in the back seat, but they would be listening to it too.

[Interviewer 2]

Wow.

[Interviewer 1]

You're very understanding parents. You can see how for, like, adults hearing something like this or hearing rap music for the first time, it's just like. It's not even the music. It's some other.

[Interviewer 2]

Yeah.

[Interviewer 3]

Extreme.

[Interviewer 1]

So extreme. But that's what drew us to it.

[Guest Vocalist]

Yeah.

[Daron Malakian]

What drew me to it was it just.

[Interviewer 3]

It's like heavier than the last thing. And then like, I like. I love Metallica, but this guy sings like this. I remember someone gave me a cassette of a bunch of bands with no names on it. And that's the first time I heard this. But I didn't know it was them until I went to the record store and accidentally bought Creator Endless Pain.

[Guest Vocalist]

That was the album name.

[Interviewer 3]

And I. I still have the cassettes at home and I still have them on cassette. This is the first time I think I might have even heard vocals that were like this. It became kind of like a black metal vocal vibe as later on, you know. But this was happening in like, 85.

[Guest Vocalist]

Wow.

[Daron Malakian]

It's getting more extreme even from Slayer. It's getting more extreme than Slayer because these bands heard Slayer.

[Interviewer 2]

Yeah.

[Daron Malakian]

And we're like, well, how can we make that even fucking crazier? And in comes a band called Napalm Death. Napalm Death is you consider grindcore. But some people may say they were the first grindcore band that comes in. And here's.

[Interviewer 3]

All the elements of hardcore, heavy metal, punk rock. But then we're going to take it even crazier and do blast people. They're doing this in, like, 86.

[Interviewer 1]

Where are they from?

[Daron Malakian]

England. So we went from Venom, which was like, oh, this is really crazy. And then Slayer. Wow. These guys took Venom to another level. Now you got this stuff coming out there. There is an element of shock for sure in metal through the years. Whether it's the lyrics.

[Interviewer 1]

More extreme, more extreme, more extreme. Faster, crazier.

[Daron Malakian]

Trying to take it to a higher intensity.

[Interviewer 1]

Yeah.

[Daron Malakian]

So you know napalm that started like this but then ended up more like death metal as time went on. But this was like the early napalm that. If I'm not mistaken, I think napalm that still exists, but I don't think anybody who was on that recording is still in the band.

[Sponsor Voice 2]

LMNT Element Electrolytes.

[Daron Malakian]

Have you ever felt.

[Sponsor Voice 2]

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[Interviewer 1]

Were there other grind core bands?

[Daron Malakian]

Yeah, Carcass.

[Interviewer 1]

These bands feel more in the lineage of discharge, but more technical.

[Interviewer 3]

It's discovered Discharge, it's the. The fastness of metal.

[Daron Malakian]

There's just.

[Interviewer 3]

There's a fusion of things that are happening that bring us here. Like the blast beat, it's fast to.

[Interviewer 1]

The point where it doesn't necessarily even sound fast. It's like just a.

[Interviewer 3]

White noise or.

[Daron Malakian]

Yeah, like.

[Interviewer 1]

Like just a sound.

[Interviewer 3]

Yeah. I used to fall asleep to bands like this.

[Daron Malakian]

I did.

[Interviewer 3]

I found it relaxing because it's constant.

[Guest Vocalist]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer 1]

It's like a vacuum cleaner.

[Interviewer 2]

Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer 3]

Napalm dad Carcass. They get credited as being one of the few. First of the grindcore scenes. Here's a band I love called Brutal Truth. Like almost not human. Who was the first Cookie Monster vocalist anymore.

[Guest Vocalist]

Insert that. Don't you see what you're doing?

[Daron Malakian]

So the grind core thing, you know, there's few bands. Like here's another band from the US called Repulsion that once again, this was all still very underground stuff, but these guys were kind of, you know, doing something that other people weren't really necessarily doing.

[Interviewer 3]

Vocals are not heavy metal vocals anymore either. When we start getting into extreme metal, it starts becoming closer to Discharge. Closer to Discharge and becomes more of. You're not singing anymore. Sometimes punk phrasing.

[Sponsor Voice]

Again.

[Interviewer 1]

No melody. It's all monotone.

[Interviewer 2]

Yeah.

[Daron Malakian]

So, yeah, that was Repulsion. Then, you know, we can start getting into. As the late 80s come around, death metal. A lot of the classic death metal bands came out of Tampa, Florida.

[Interviewer 1]

Really?

[Daron Malakian]

Yeah.

[Interviewer 1]

That's interesting. I wonder why that is.

[Daron Malakian]

The band Death, Death, Cannibal Corpse, Deicide, Morbid angel, all these bands came from Tampa, Florida.

[Interviewer 1]

Wow. Wonder what was happening in camp at that time.

[Daron Malakian]

But there is a band before we get to those bands that some people say were death metal before death metal. And they even had a song called Death Metal Cool, which some people say name the genre, but they're really great. Song is a song called the Exorcist. The band called Possessed, which is from the Bay Area.

[Interviewer 3]

These guys were doing this really early on. Like early 80s, Early 80s. They formed early, but this album probably came out around 85.

[Interviewer 1]

And they were called what again?

[Daron Malakian]

Possessed.

[Interviewer 1]

Possessed.

[Daron Malakian]

The first album they call was called Seven Churches. And yeah, they're from the Bay Area, but, you know, it's debatable. But some people will credit them as being one of the first death metal bands.

[Interviewer 1]

And what's your favorite of the Tampa bands?

[Daron Malakian]

I love them all. I love them all. They all do something a little bit different. But we gotta start with Death. Death is a really, really important band. Really important heavy metal band. Some people think that the genre was named after the Possessed song. And some people think death metal is named after the band Death. The main guy in Death is a guy named Chuck Schuldner. The band changes, but he's the same. He's the main guy. But the style of Death goes from your traditional Death influenced by thrash with death vocals. But as Death goes on, they become very technical and a different version of the same band, but it becomes more praggy, you could say. But they start with, you know, just.

[Interviewer 3]

This is a song called Evil Death and it's off the first Death album. So this is late 80s and this.

[Daron Malakian]

Is.

[Interviewer 3]

The beginning of, you could say death metal.

[Guest Vocalist]

How would you describe it?

[Interviewer 1]

As different than thrash?

[Interviewer 3]

The vocals.

[Guest Vocalist]

Yep.

[Interviewer 3]

The growly vocals.

[Daron Malakian]

Morbid Angel.

[Interviewer 3]

Death metal. Called Immortal Rights.

[Guest Vocalist]

We end up our killing wise Let the rugby lies make us more darkness oh, enlighten us to your waves.

[Interviewer 3]

And the lyrics are all very satanic with Morbid angel on these first few records.

[Guest Vocalist]

Hunting by shadow trapped.

[Interviewer 2]

Basically.

[Guest Vocalist]

Narrative. Give some immortality.

[Interviewer 2]

Better.

[Interviewer 3]

For all the fans that were into thrash and into Slayer. And then this stuff started coming out. This gained a lot of popularity, I'd say, in the heavy metal community in the late 80s, early 90s. Like, once you started listening to this, you got used to the vocals and you were just like, I just want to hear this. This is. This took heavy to another.

[Guest Vocalist]

The death I summon you start to get our br. Got yourself on our right. That's the Vi. Give something mortality don't on those.

[Interviewer 3]

You see from the grind core stuff that now these guys are using glass beads. Like, some of this is happening around the same time, but it's also evolving around the same time.

[Daron Malakian]

Another Tampa band, Deicide, Morbid angel and Deocide. Their lyrical themes were more like satanic. The singer of Deocide, I think had like burned upside down cross on his forehead. Like it's scarred there. Once again, we're going into satanic kayfabe.

[Interviewer 2]

And.

[Daron Malakian]

And you know, some of these dudes, you're like, oh, these lyrics are more intense and they look more intense.

[Interviewer 2]

Yeah.

[Daron Malakian]

And I mean, we really get into satanic kayfabe once we get into the black metal stuff.

[Interviewer 1]

They're living the gimmick, as they say in wrestling.

[Daron Malakian]

Yes, the black metal really is taking it to another level. But here's a little taste of deicide.

[Interviewer 3]

Holiness.

[Guest Vocalist]

Father, do not let me ask thy holiness do not confess destruction of holiness beyond. Your bike. It's a blasphemy. 9005 rituals on the right Be up to the base and my life Wrap up God dangerous in my soul Bless. If I went down the gate Stand up to a fight and my life.

[Interviewer 2]

I.

[Interviewer 3]

Yeah, you got that.

[Interviewer 1]

They sound more influenced a little bit by Metallica than the others.

[Daron Malakian]

Really?

[Interviewer 2]

Yeah.

[Interviewer 1]

The one before you sounded more Slayer influence.

[Interviewer 3]

Well, this just. These guys just took all that stuff and made it more intense.

[Daron Malakian]

Intense.

[Interviewer 3]

And even the satanic part of Slayer, they took that and made it more intense. They. The lyrics were even more extreme. Safety. Yeah.

[Daron Malakian]

With.

[Interviewer 3]

With these two bands at least. But then you have a band like Obituary all once again from Tampa, Florida.

[Guest Vocalist]

Wow.

[Daron Malakian]

This is Obituary chopped in half.

[Guest Vocalist]

Feel the blood spill from your bow Running waste comes yesterday.

[Interviewer 3]

Obituary didn't use too many blast beats. They were more. I don't know how to explain it.

[Interviewer 1]

But.

[Interviewer 3]

Not necessarily focused on going fast, but a little kind of sludgy. And then you have Cannibal Corpse.

[Daron Malakian]

With.

[Interviewer 3]

Their hit song called I Come Blood. You see how these bands all sound different from each other?

[Interviewer 1]

They really do.

[Interviewer 3]

I had never heard vocals like this before I heard Cannibal Cork.

[Interviewer 1]

There's a good reason for that.

[Interviewer 3]

Sepultura started a certain way. And as they went along, they changed too. They always kind of pushed the Sepultura sound.

[Interviewer 1]

Is this early?

[Interviewer 3]

This is early Sepultura. Not the earliest, but like two or three albums in.

[Interviewer 2]

Sam. Walk on these dirt streets with heading bye bye Feeling the start of the world I vote for the rules Blame and lies Contradictions arise Blame and lies Contradictions arise.

[Interviewer 1]

They definitely sound different than the others.

[Interviewer 3]

Sepultura is somewhere between thrash. At this era of Sepultura, even the fans were like, is this death metal? Is it thrash? Because the vocals are kind of have the growly death thing, but the music kind of has the thrash vibe to it. And like I said, as they went along, their sound kind of changed into a more groovy thing.

[Interviewer 1]

That's interesting.

[Interviewer 3]

Here's another band out of Brazil that was kind of, you could say, more influential in the black metal scene was.

[Daron Malakian]

A band called Sarcophago. This is in R I.

[Interviewer 2]

So you.

[Interviewer 3]

Hear the grind core kind of thing. But there's more metal here than in grind core. And these guys coming out of Brazil, you know, Sepultur and them. So to be just discovered out of Brazil.

[Interviewer 1]

Have you seen any of these bands live?

[Interviewer 3]

Sepultura?

[Guest Vocalist]

I have.

[Interviewer 1]

How are they?

[Daron Malakian]

They're great.

[Interviewer 3]

I saw them open up for.

[Daron Malakian]

Aussie.

[Interviewer 3]

Way back in the day in Costa Mes. You know, this is late 80s.

[Daron Malakian]

It's worth playing a song from later days. Death, the band Death. So people can see what they evolved into, what they evolved into. This is song called Nothing Is everything.

[Guest Vocalist]

Living like us doing our day Living out the world very far away A different existence get busily the same oppression and sadness the AB. Look deeper than your eyes.

[Interviewer 3]

Technical drumming. The musicianship is at like a really high level. A lot of changes.

[Guest Vocalist]

Unpredictable variation. Unbehavior Open key to the metal door where nothing is everything.

[Interviewer 2]

And everything is nothing.

[Guest Vocalist]

Stealing beyond the wall of thousand arms ab.

[Interviewer 1]

Like Fast Frog rock.

[Daron Malakian]

Yep.

[Interviewer 3]

Well, it becomes very froggy.

[Guest Vocalist]

Being a part of Bell that is real.

[Interviewer 3]

I mean, listen to what the drums are doing. You could say that in some way. Death is his own. It's its own thing, man. Like what? He passed away, this singer. But their albums are really, really considered classic, classic albums. To the point where there is members of the band that tour till this day. They play these songs. Obviously the singer is not there.

[Interviewer 1]

Yeah. At the beginning of the song was the first time I heard a connection. Connection between the death metal vocal style, which sounded so original and everything we've been listening to Going back to Lemmy because it sounds a little bit like it could be Motorhead at the beginning.

[Daron Malakian]

Well, that Lemmy vocal style, you know how you asked, how do we get to Cookie Monster? Yeah, that was kind of, you could say the beginning of just that growly kind of throat kind of vocal comes from Lemmy to some degree.

[Interviewer 1]

But I feel like Lemmy just naturally sings like that and most of the other guys sound like they're putting on a voice sound like.

[Daron Malakian]

Yeah, yeah, I see what you're saying.

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[Daron Malakian]

Warning. This product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. So. So we've covered death metal and now my favorite of all the genres. Yes, Black metal from Norway.

[Interviewer 1]

And when is this compared to the others? Time on the timeline.

[Daron Malakian]

Early 90s.

[Interviewer 1]

Early 90s.

[Daron Malakian]

But we're going to have to bring up a couple of bands that sparked this.

[Interviewer 2]

This.

[Daron Malakian]

There's the first wave of black metal, which we talked about. Venom.

[Interviewer 1]

Yeah.

[Daron Malakian]

And they had an album called Black Metal. Then we got to talk about a couple bands. One of them is called Hellhammer, which. Have you ever heard of a band called Celtic Frost?

[Interviewer 2]

Yes.

[Daron Malakian]

So Hellhammer was Celtic Frost before they were called Celtic Frost. So this is Hell Hammer, the third of the storms. And this you could say is very, very influential to black metal.

[Interviewer 3]

Early 80s.

[Interviewer 1]

So it's like a precursor.

[Interviewer 2]

Yes.

[Interviewer 3]

You could even say the death metal bands were influenced by this.

[Interviewer 2]

Hail storms.

[Interviewer 3]

The aggression that they're throwing down and the vocal style that they're doing in the darkness of the rim. Really, really wasn't being done at this.

[Daron Malakian]

And we got.

[Interviewer 3]

I'll play you some celtic cross.

[Daron Malakian]

It's a song called Nocturnal Beer.

[Interviewer 1]

How much later is this than what we just heard?

[Interviewer 3]

About a year or two.

[Guest Vocalist]

So close.

[Interviewer 3]

Yeah, very close. But this is also, you could say, a precursor, like, to the vocal style of death metal and the throat vocal. This is, I'd say around 1984, about 85.

[Interviewer 1]

This is closer to rock here.

[Interviewer 3]

Well, remember, this is closer in time to Motorhead and Venom than it is to later on death metal and all that stuff. So you still hear. You still hear the Motorhead and the Venom in. In. That's Celtic Frost. Hell Hammer, Celtic Frost. First wave of black metal. These bands are considered that.

[Daron Malakian]

And another band that is part of.

[Interviewer 3]

The first wave of black metal is a band called Bathory.

[Interviewer 2]

With.

[Interviewer 3]

From Think Batteries from Sweden. And this is Bathroom, once again, early.

[Interviewer 2]

80S.

[Interviewer 3]

Called In Conspiracy with Satan. Listen to the vocals, though. This is once again ahead of its time.

[Interviewer 2]

I have a. Busy day.

[Interviewer 3]

So you hear how the production is and everything.

[Interviewer 2]

Yeah.

[Interviewer 3]

So when we get to.

[Daron Malakian]

The second.

[Interviewer 3]

World wave of black metal, we're talking early 90s. We've gone through thrash, we've gone through grindcore, we've gone through death metal.

[Daron Malakian]

So these bands from Norway kind of found that the death metal, even though, you know, it's intense music and all that, but as time is going, it's getting too poor, polished. It's. It's getting to.

[Guest Vocalist]

For who?

[Daron Malakian]

For. For people who are into extreme music, I guess, and then they start kind of rebelling against what metal has become and start thinking what metal should be is what bands like Venom put down and what. What this band we just heard, Bathory or Celtic Frost. Like, this is what metal should be. It shouldn't be singing about helping the environment, and it should be about darkness. It should be about Satanism. It should be ugly. So there was this guy named Euronymous from a band called Mayhem, and he had this record store, and that's where people used to gather. And that's kind of where the early black metal scene in Norway kind of started was, you know, people gathering at this record store where, you know, he was this very extreme metal kind of guy. And Mayhem had this singer, his name was Dead, so they had recorded, I guess, some early stuff with this guy. This guy, you know, is a troubled kind of person. So he ends up shooting himself, kills himself. This guy Euronymous, comes in and finds that his singer has killed himself. Takes pictures of it, like with the blood scattered all over the walls, skull fragments on the floor, and uses it as, like a cover for the album, huh?

[Guest Vocalist]

So.

[Daron Malakian]

So these kinds of crazy fucking stories start coming out of Norway. So this guy Euronymous, is also himself eventually murdered by a guy from a band called Burzum. His name is Var Vickerness. So you have these stories coming out of Norway about this scene where the.

[Interviewer 1]

Bands are killing each other and burning churches.

[Daron Malakian]

They're taking the satanic kayfabe to whole.

[Interviewer 1]

Yeah, they're really living.

[Daron Malakian]

They're really living this shit. Just taking the shock and the extreme of it to another level. And also, their recordings were purposely, like, done lo fi. Like, well, here's a song from a band called Dark Throne. Now, not all these bands were burning churches. They were in the scene. And there was people in the scene that were doing that. Yeah, I mean, I have a friend from one of these bands. He wasn't burning churches. But the scene that they were around, this kind of stuff was going on. So there's a few really respected bands that were from the early part of this scene that, you know, they carry weight in the metal world.

[Interviewer 1]

And this is early 90s in Norway.

[Daron Malakian]

Yeah, yeah, early 90s Norway. There's a song called Transylvanian Hunger by Dark Throne.

[Interviewer 3]

One thing you'll notice is that the music is kind of beautiful. Yeah, it sounds like industrial music, but it's melodic.

[Daron Malakian]

Atmospheric.

[Interviewer 3]

It puts you in a trance, in a dark trance.

[Interviewer 1]

It sounds like we're listening to it through a wall, you know, like it's leaking through the sound coming from somewhere else.

[Interviewer 3]

It's probably one mic in the.

[Interviewer 2]

Daylight.

[Interviewer 1]

The lo fi aspect is really interesting.

[Interviewer 3]

It makes you really have to listen to it.

[Interviewer 1]

Yeah.

[Interviewer 3]

To figure it out, to see what's going on. There's this I don't give a what you think about it kind of vibe about it.

[Interviewer 1]

Sound more like storytelling.

[Guest Vocalist]

And the.

[Interviewer 3]

The music is always dark.

[Interviewer 1]

Does it always not change like this has, like, no rhythm changes there?

[Interviewer 3]

Well, just like the Tampa death metal.

[Guest Vocalist]

Yeah.

[Interviewer 3]

You hear each band does it their own way.

[Guest Vocalist]

I see.

[Interviewer 3]

And it doesn't mean every Dark Throne song sounds just like this because Darkstone has different vibes to them too. But this is one of their more really classic Black Hole songs. And then you have Mayhem, which.

[Interviewer 1]

This.

[Interviewer 3]

Album is called the Mysterious Dom Satanas.

[Interviewer 1]

And this is the guy who ran the record store.

[Interviewer 3]

Who ran the record store, took the.

[Interviewer 1]

Pictures of the singer.

[Interviewer 3]

Singer used it as an album cover and gets murdered. And then he gets murdered by the guy in the band called Burzum. But on this track, the guy on Burzum is playing bass. This album doesn't come out until after the. This murder has happened. So this song called Funeral Fog.

[Daron Malakian]

You.

[Interviewer 3]

Hear the mood of it?

[Interviewer 1]

Yeah.

[Interviewer 3]

Like from the first song to this song, there is a mood that black metal sets. Kind of a dark atmospheric, melodic.

[Interviewer 1]

To me, it feels like the speed is incidental. Yes, they're playing fast, but it's not really about the speed. It's like, it creates this atmosphere. Atmosphere.

[Interviewer 3]

So this album came out after the guitar player was murdered and the guy who murdered him is in jail now. But the scene is moving forward without them. There's other bands that are forming. There's other bands that are, you know, people are talking about.

[Interviewer 1]

How much would you say you listen to this music?

[Interviewer 2]

A lot.

[Interviewer 3]

Especially when I first discovered it, yeah.

[Interviewer 1]

And would you listen to, like an album over and over again?

[Interviewer 3]

Yes, or bands over. And it's all I listened to when I first discovered it.

[Interviewer 2]

As it comes from afar.

[Interviewer 3]

There's something really beautiful about it. The melodies of the guitars. It brings pictures in your mind and it also matches where they come from.

[Interviewer 1]

None of the parts are important. It's the whole.

[Daron Malakian]

Yes.

[Interviewer 2]

You.

[Guest Vocalist]

Are, you fuck.

[Interviewer 1]

How old were you when you were listening to this? A lot.

[Interviewer 3]

In my twenties. Here, I'll play you a song from Burzum. The guy who murdered the guitar player from this band who's actually playing the bass on this track. You see how they're different right away? Song called Lost Wisdom.

[Interviewer 1]

It's not as lo fi and it has more dynamics.

[Interviewer 3]

You feel about those voices.

[Interviewer 2]

Goes.

[Interviewer 1]

He means it more than King Diamond.

[Interviewer 2]

Sam.

[Interviewer 1]

What's wild about this music is that after hearing Mayhem, this kind of sounds like pop music in comparison.

[Interviewer 3]

Once again, this is one track from Burzum.

[Interviewer 1]

When you start listening to it.

[Interviewer 2]

The.

[Interviewer 1]

Subtleties of it become really important.

[Interviewer 3]

The subtle differences.

[Guest Vocalist]

Yes.

[Interviewer 3]

They belong together, but they're different. Yeah, they're related. And then there is a band again out of Norway called Immortal. It's a song called the sun no Longer Rises. Listen to the melodicness, though.

[Guest Vocalist]

I hear it.

[Interviewer 1]

It's more orchestral.

[Interviewer 3]

Yes, It's really beautiful.

[Interviewer 2]

It. Sam, it's really cool. Where I come. I believe.

[Guest Vocalist]

I believe in desecration.

[Interviewer 3]

So intense. Like they come from cold countries and you feel the coldness.

[Interviewer 1]

It's truly original new music. And I probably feel like you felt maybe when you first heard Slayer, where. I can't say I like it, but I can see. I'm gonna wanna come back and listen to it more because.

[Daron Malakian]

Try it again.

[Interviewer 1]

Not even try it again. I feel like it holds secrets I can get glimpses of it it, but it's not available on the face. Yeah, it sounds like the music is hidden inside that.

[Daron Malakian]

Yep. Because of the production.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Daron Malakian]

You know, Very cool.

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[Daron Malakian]

One more band from this genre is a band called Satiricon. This song's called Mother North.

[Interviewer 2]

Sa. Come feel complete.

[Guest Vocalist]

Memory.

[Interviewer 2]

Come on, Sam.

[Interviewer 3]

People always will ask me, well, what's the difference between death metal and black metal? Do you hear it?

[Interviewer 1]

Completely different.

[Interviewer 3]

Completely different.

[Interviewer 1]

Completely different. This sounds like church music to me.

[Interviewer 3]

But avant garde church music to some extent. It is kind of religious music, but the religion is Satanism.

[Interviewer 1]

I don't know if that's true though. Like, I understand that's the kfa, but I don't hear that. I hear like classical devotional church music in this.

[Interviewer 3]

It's very serious. Yeah, it stays very serious. It doesn't.

[Interviewer 1]

You know, it's like oddly was the Prince of Darkness.

[Guest Vocalist]

Yeah.

[Interviewer 1]

And Black Sabbath was the original satanic band. And then before every show, he would get on his knees and pray to Jesus.

[Interviewer 2]

Yeah.

[Interviewer 1]

So it's like, it's almost like to accept the conceit of Satan, you have to be a believer to start, you know. Sounds very orchestral. It's amazing. Is it only guitars or is there keyboards?

[Interviewer 3]

There's keyboards in the back of.

[Interviewer 2]

This.

[Interviewer 1]

Sounds uplifting.

[Interviewer 3]

The singer of this band is a very, very close friend of mine.

[Interviewer 1]

It's amazing. It's amazing.

[Interviewer 3]

And let me tell you, these guys, they're.

[Daron Malakian]

They're really smart guys.

[Interviewer 3]

Guys who play death metal, black metal, when you meet them. Yeah, they're really smart.

[Interviewer 1]

It's Intellectual.

[Interviewer 3]

You can hear it. Yes, it's very intellectual. And they are very intellectual people.

[Interviewer 1]

They are not messing around.

[Interviewer 2]

Yeah.

[Interviewer 3]

So, yeah, that's the black metal. When I listen to metal these days, it's usually black metal.

[Daron Malakian]

I still.

[Interviewer 3]

I really love the genre. And then the theatrics. Like, the way these bands look. They have like face paint.

[Interviewer 2]

They.

[Guest Vocalist]

They have like.

[Interviewer 3]

It's very kind of inspired by Kiss, you could say. But the demons. It's just different versions of.

[Daron Malakian]

They call it corpse paint.

[Interviewer 3]

It comes from Kiss. It comes from King Diamond. Early Celtic Frost used to do it.

[Interviewer 1]

The face paint?

[Guest Vocalist]

Yeah.

[Interviewer 3]

Like, they would have, like, black under their eyes, but their face would be white. As a guy growing up with the.

[Daron Malakian]

Heavy metal, with the thrash music, with the death metal music, by the time we get into the 90s, yes, there is that black metal coming out of Norway. But then there is also bands that are mixing groove with metal.

[Interviewer 1]

What do you call the genre?

[Daron Malakian]

I mean, some people call it groove metal at first, but groove metal evolved into. You could say, you know, goes into industrial metal, goes into new metal. I see you wouldn't call Pantera new metal band, but Pantera was doing a groovy version of heavy metal in the early 90s. Like a song like this called A New Level.

[Interviewer 2]

It's.

[Interviewer 3]

There's a different sounds about it.

[Interviewer 1]

Closer to System.

[Guest Vocalist]

Well.

[Interviewer 3]

I was very inspired by bands like this. Fans have already done the fat stuff. Fans have already done the thrash stuff, the extreme death metal, the growling. When I get to the point where I'm doing what I'm doing, what can I do that's new? You know, I don't want to. I love all these bands.

[Interviewer 1]

Yeah, but you don't want to repeat it.

[Interviewer 3]

I don't want to copy it, of course. So you start, you know, in a band like Pantera, you start hearing funky, kind of groovy, bouncy type of beats.

[Interviewer 1]

And these riffs sound like they could also be on a Soundgarden record, you know?

[Interviewer 3]

Yeah, well, they were coming out around the same time.

[Interviewer 1]

The drumming. More metal here, Soundgarden, it's different, it's more rock, but the guitar is not so radically different.

[Interviewer 3]

So you have this. Which Pantera is Pantera?

[Guest Vocalist]

I don't know.

[Interviewer 3]

What genre do you put their metal, Their groove metal. But, you know, at the end of the day, they're Pantera. They do what Pantera does. A lot of bands were inspired by what they do, but some bands, you kind of can't put them exactly in that one genre. Then you got you know, you start going into industrial. Industrial started as. You could say industrial, but then bands like Ministry started putting guitars to Drum Machine.

[Interviewer 2]

Sam.

[Interviewer 1]

It's in the conversation, for sure, of metal.

[Interviewer 3]

But the way it moves is groovy.

[Interviewer 2]

Get up, get on your feet.

[Guest Vocalist]

We are fighting for the liberation of.

[Interviewer 2]

Bands, not generation of these pigs and racist society.

[Interviewer 3]

So they're one of the first bands to bring in that industrial vibe, but give the heavy metal or plump rock flavor to it.

[Guest Vocalist]

You know.

[Interviewer 3]

The aggression.

[Interviewer 2]

Yeah.

[Interviewer 3]

Sounds of samples of drills.

[Interviewer 1]

It's like heavy metal for people who grew up on electronic and dance music.

[Interviewer 2]

Yeah.

[Interviewer 3]

We're gonna rip this off. We're gonna tear this motherfucker down. Very interesting.

[Interviewer 2]

Get up.

[Interviewer 3]

These are bands now experimenting bringing different things into heavy metal and bringing heavy metal into different things. Mixing genres, mixing influences, fusion of different.

[Daron Malakian]

Different things.

[Interviewer 1]

It's not like black metal, but it's as new as black metal.

[Daron Malakian]

Yes.

[Interviewer 3]

Just in a different direction at the time.

[Interviewer 2]

Yes.

[Interviewer 3]

So Skinny Puppy, you wouldn't consider a metal band, but a song like this. Called Fascist Jockage.

[Daron Malakian]

Jesus.

[Interviewer 3]

Both of these bands in their earlier.

[Daron Malakian]

Years didn't really have guitars.

[Interviewer 3]

But these are kind of later records that they started bringing in guitars and bringing in the heavy metal punk, hardcore energy mixed with the industrial.

[Interviewer 2]

The King.

[Interviewer 3]

You can't mention these bands without mentioning Killing Joke. You know Killing Joke?

[Interviewer 2]

Yeah.

[Interviewer 1]

English band.

[Interviewer 3]

Yeah, English band. You could say that what black metal Venom Motorhead is to that genre. Killing Joke would probably be to this genre of metal. Even though Killing Joke was not a method metal band.

[Daron Malakian]

But a song like this, The Weight.

[Interviewer 3]

Metallica covered this, but this was in the early 80s. It's not metal.

[Interviewer 1]

No, they were considered like a post punk.

[Interviewer 3]

Post punk, but hard new waves, but. But you hear the. The guitars mixed with the very electronic kind of.

[Interviewer 1]

Very close to industrial music.

[Daron Malakian]

Yes.

[Interviewer 3]

And then, you know, you gotta mention Nine Inch Nails in this conversation within.

[Daron Malakian]

Industrial song called Wish.

[Interviewer 3]

So all this shit came out before what I guess people would call nu metal. Pretty aggressive.

[Interviewer 2]

Build it up now Take it apart Climb up real high now Fall down.

[Daron Malakian]

Real far.

[Interviewer 2]

No need for me I just threw it away. We show something real we're showing something in. Real.

[Interviewer 3]

This song started seeing commercial success.

[Interviewer 2]

I'm the one without a soul I'm the one with this big heart.

[Daron Malakian]

Once.

[Interviewer 3]

Grunge came around and a lot of those speed metal thrash bands were not putting out their best stuff in the early 90s, mid-90s, we had already heard it, it already been done. And they were not kind of putting out Their best records, I don't. In my opinion. And even the death metal bands after a while were kind of like in. By the mid-90s, it was kind of like, it's just okay, what else? And then you see bands like this that were coming out. I think there was bands like us.

[Daron Malakian]

But the first time.

[Interviewer 3]

This is where I'm gonna start getting into new metal.

[Daron Malakian]

The first time I heard Corn, I.

[Interviewer 3]

Was like, this is something that's heavy, but it's heavy in a way that's not done the way that I listened to heavy.

[Daron Malakian]

All this, all these years, you felt.

[Interviewer 3]

A heaviness from the groove more than you did from the speed or the. You know, because we'd already been through all the speed and all the fucking fastness and all the blast beats and all that. So for a generation that kind of.

[Daron Malakian]

Lived through, that, grew up with that, then you hear.

[Interviewer 3]

Just bringing it with a heavy, heavy bounce. And this was pretty much where, I guess you could say new metal started.

[Guest Vocalist]

You think I'm up to scare you I'm over to prepare you for when you stop and turn around.

[Interviewer 2]

Your body's going down.

[Interviewer 3]

There was something fresh about it.

[Interviewer 2]

Unlike.

[Interviewer 1]

Anything that came before.

[Interviewer 3]

No, it was his only own thing. Downtuned guitars.

[Interviewer 2]

Yeah.

[Interviewer 3]

It'S not going fast, but it's. It hits you in the chest, you know, it's just got a groove to it.

[Interviewer 1]

And it's related to industrial, too.

[Interviewer 3]

Well, that's why I played industrial first.

[Interviewer 1]

It's post industrial.

[Interviewer 2]

Yeah.

[Interviewer 3]

It's a fusion of a lot of different things.

[Daron Malakian]

There's hip hop involved.

[Interviewer 1]

Yeah.

[Interviewer 3]

Fed up with you better than you you these build up you no one better than you you Better with you.

[Guest Vocalist]

You better with you I'm not as good as you I'm no one better than you no you I'm not as good as you I'm the one better.

[Interviewer 1]

Than you this is kind of ragey.

[Interviewer 3]

Well, rage kind of had an influence on those new metal bands because of the hip hop top or build ups like this. So it was all kind of happening at the same time.

[Daron Malakian]

The way you can kind of compare how the Black Sabbath sound was happening from the late psychedelic stuff from the late 60s. Yeah, it was something that was kind of happening that kind of trickled into one thing, trickled into the other, into the other. And like, you know, you to need case.

[Interviewer 1]

It's like someone has an idea of a new variation on something that's kind of around.

[Daron Malakian]

Yeah. And builds on it.

[Interviewer 1]

Yeah, I felt that way because I know Trent was really Influenced by Ministry.

[Daron Malakian]

Yeah.

[Interviewer 1]

Trent had a different thing about him. Like, I didn't like industrial music, but his songwriting was so good that it transcended into industrial. Well, and then I grew to like the music.

[Daron Malakian]

There was more songwriting, I think, involved with Nine Inch Nails and I. You would say it's more commercial than Ministry. Yeah, Especially stuff that came later on. Deftones is another band from the new metal scene. This one's called Seven Words.

[Interviewer 2]

My living loose I've been humming too many words Got a weak self esteem that's been stomped away from every single dream but it's something else that brought us feast Keep it all inside so we feel we can unleash But I think that you made it up I think that your mind is gone I think you should be glorified.

[Interviewer 3]

We had metal, and in the 80s, metal was actually, you know, played on MTV and was kind of had commercial success, especially with the hair metal bands and the glam bands and all that. Aside from Metallica and I mean, Slayer never became a huge commercial success. So heavy metal had its thing in.

[Daron Malakian]

The 80s, and then in the 90s, grunge came and wiped out all of that.

[Interviewer 1]

Yeah.

[Daron Malakian]

And yeah, you had death metal, you had black metal, but these were not commercial kind of genres. New metal came out, which we never called it new metal, but these bands came. Came out and Corn, Deftones, us, Slip Knot, started getting popular. We were playing the Oz Fest to the point where we headlined the Ozfest at one point. I feel like, you know, new metal gets a bad rap because it became a cookie cutter thing where every label wanted their new metal band at some point. And it.

[Interviewer 1]

It's just because it got so popular.

[Daron Malakian]

Yeah, it got really popular. But the bands that I'm playing right now, and I'll, I guess, include our own band in that thing, we were all doing something original and mixing things with metal that weren't being done before. So when people, you know, talk about new metal and. Oh, it, you know, it got all really popular and all this stuff, it's. It got popular one because it was. Was good at first. At first it was. And then it became. Every band wanted to try to sound like Corn. Every band wanted to try to sound like the Deftones.

[Interviewer 1]

Yeah.

[Daron Malakian]

Or Slipknot.

[Interviewer 1]

I felt like System came up in the wave of new metal, but it sounded nothing like any of the other new metal bands.

[Daron Malakian]

From the beginning, I was trying to mix things with metal that even all these. Like, it wasn't like, why does it just gotta be like, industrial? Why. Why can't I mix the Beach Boys and the Beatles and all this stuff, and the Armenian music and Arabic music and all. Everything I know. Why can't I mix anything with rock or metal? If it feels right and it feels like they belong together? And in my head, like, it's all the stuff that was natural to me to love. And it came out of me in a natural way to where I wrote song, like a song like Africa Patois that has very, like Beatles, Simon and Garfunkel, then comes in with this heavy thing and then goes back into Beatles, Simon and Garfunkel. And then another thing that we did that I don't think you heard from any of these bands that I just played for you today were vocal harmonies.

[Interviewer 1]

Nobody had vocal harmonies.

[Daron Malakian]

Not very many that I could think of.

[Interviewer 1]

Only System.

[Daron Malakian]

Yeah. In heavy metal music.

[Interviewer 2]

Yeah.

[Daron Malakian]

So us bands that were coming out, out of the Sunset strip in the mid-90s, late-90s, I think we were doing something unique. I always saw System as a very avant garde, abstract kind of band. It's interesting that people caught on to it.

[Interviewer 3]

It's hooky.

[Daron Malakian]

I write hooky stuff.

[Interviewer 1]

Yeah. But it wasn't obvious from the beginning that it was going to catch on. Certainly not in the way that it happened. Has most people didn't get it?

[Daron Malakian]

No.

[Interviewer 1]

I remember, you know, going to KROCK and playing it for Kevin Weatherley and him saying, we will never play this band on our station. No matter what happens, we will never play this band.

[Daron Malakian]

Yeah. And a year later, he was playing it every hour on the hour.

[Interviewer 1]

Number one on the station, one year later. But that was the level of resistance, because it was so difficult, different.

[Daron Malakian]

You know, the new metal thing is, it's cool that it happened because it helped us be part of something that was kind of moving momentum wise. And we were kind of going along with the wave. You could call us alternative metal.

[Interviewer 1]

I think that's fair.

[Daron Malakian]

Yeah. And I'm fine with that more than I am with new metal. But, you know, people want to put us in a genre and that's what it is. But I. I think there is things that we do that only we do.

[Interviewer 2]

For sure.

[Interviewer 1]

Oh, absolutely. Good and bad.

[Daron Malakian]

Yeah, I guess so.

[Interviewer 2]

Yeah.

[Daron Malakian]

And we're getting out of the new metal thing.

[Interviewer 3]

First Slipknot album. Groovy, but heavy as with samples in the back. I mean, just meshing it all together.

[Guest Vocalist]

Even if I can't handle y' all run away either way I better be. You're too petting me get off. Get off. What the hell Am I saying I don't know about my rebel? Step up, step off walls, let me fall. You all get a quill.

[Interviewer 3]

Death metal vibe. Just mixing the death metal, the groove.

[Interviewer 2]

They.

[Interviewer 3]

They're doing a lot of different stuff too, man.

[Interviewer 2]

Yeah.

[Interviewer 1]

And they also had the theatrical stage show.

[Interviewer 3]

They came out after us. We were already moved to the Ausfest main stage at that point. But then they came out and they were on the second stage, and you. You can't ignore them. And they just skyrocketed. Like, once they got a chance to be seen on that Ausfest, I mean, it became. What everyone just started talking about was.

[Interviewer 1]

Slipknot, because no one had ever seen anything like it before.

[Daron Malakian]

It was good, though.

[Interviewer 2]

The.

[Daron Malakian]

The music was like, heavy.

[Interviewer 3]

It wasn't just their look, it wasn't just the masks. Like, there was something really heavy about this. They were definitely part of the evolution of metal. And now you see so many bands wearing masks.

[Interviewer 2]

Like.

[Interviewer 3]

Like, that's one thing I don't really understand, like, right now, lately, like, metal, like, there's so many bands that wear masks. And I'm like, it.

[Daron Malakian]

It's kind of like what hair metal.

[Interviewer 3]

Used to be in a way where it's like everyone's doing it now, you know?

[Daron Malakian]

So two more bands.

[Interviewer 1]

Great.

[Daron Malakian]

One of these bands, I remember I was sitting with Joey from Slipknot, God rest his soul, and we were sitting in a hotel and he was like, dude, have you ever heard of the Dillinger Escape Plan? And I was like, no. He's like, you gotta listen to this band. So we went through all these genres, and now the last two bands I'm gonna play are kind of bring a very technical musicianship. Prague Math Metal is what people start calling. Calling it. So here's Dillinger Escape Plan with Sugar Coated Source. Chaos.

[Interviewer 3]

But the musicianship.

[Interviewer 2]

Jazz.

[Interviewer 3]

Look where we started. And now we're like, to this, wow. This wouldn't have existed if all the other stuff didn't happen.

[Interviewer 1]

And also things like yes didn't exist. You know, this is definitely a descendant.

[Guest Vocalist]

Yeah, there.

[Daron Malakian]

There's all. All kinds of going on here.

[Interviewer 3]

So these are all light. Late 90s.

[Daron Malakian]

So from late 60s, psychedelic, new wave, British heavy metal, thrash metal, death metal, black metal, industrial metal, new metal. We get into the late 90s. To me, this is one of the heaviest bands ever out of Sweden. It's hard to out heavy meshuggah.

[Guest Vocalist]

This.

[Interviewer 3]

This is new millennium Cyanide.

[Guest Vocalist]

I rearrange my nothing against you I am size I reflex, I'm recall I get ready take your creepy best than me. I'm waiting to hire you now for the directors. I am headed to a word complete that I'll be the. Bars.

[Interviewer 3]

Every rip is on a different one.

[Daron Malakian]

Wow.

[Interviewer 1]

It's so groovy that you don't lose it. Like, you know, it's not hard to listen to math. No, it feels straightforward.

[Interviewer 3]

Even though it's complicated, that that symbol keeps it straightforward. But there's all this happening in between that symbol. Very groovy.

[Interviewer 2]

Yeah. Headbanging.

[Interviewer 3]

You can bob your head too easy. But it's that symbol that you're bobbing your head too.

[Interviewer 1]

Also the rhythm of the vocal in between the guitars is really interesting too.

[Interviewer 2]

Sa. Made a.

[Interviewer 3]

I once asked them, I.

[Daron Malakian]

Was like, what does your new album sound like?

[Interviewer 3]

And they said, seasickness.

[Interviewer 2]

Save up. Until then, you enter.

[Guest Vocalist]

Your game.

[Interviewer 2]

Sa.

[Daron Malakian]

Tetragrammaton is a podcast. Tetragrammaton is a website.

[Sponsor Voice 2]

Tetragrammaton is a whole world of knowledge.

[Host]

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