Podcast Summary: Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin

Guest: Francis Ford Coppola
Date: March 5, 2025

Episode Overview

In this captivating and richly detailed conversation, Rick Rubin hosts legendary filmmaker Francis Ford Coppola for an in-depth exploration of his life in cinema. The episode dives into Coppola’s innovative approaches to filmmaking, his collaborations with industry giants, the history and philosophy of his creative process, formative experiences in theater and film school, the making of iconic works like The Godfather, Apocalypse Now, and The Conversation, and his thoughts on the evolving nature of film as both an art and an industry. True to the Tetragrammaton spirit, the episode is packed with gems about creativity, risk, mentorship, and the lifelong quest for meaning through art.

Key Topics & Insights

1. Process & Philosophy of Filmmaking

• Dictating vs. Writing (00:02–02:12):

  • Coppola describes how The Conversation screenplay was dictated, not written, emphasizing the spoken word and collaboration with a court reporter.
  • "I didn’t write it. I dictated it… Dictation is a skill… so that it came out what you were hoping." —Francis Ford Coppola (01:20)

• Form, Content, and Sound (02:17–05:56):

  • The critical role of sound in film; collaboration with Walter Murch, who coined “sound designer.”

  • Innovations in sound (Dolby, multi-speaker systems) grew out of necessity and proximity to technology in San Francisco.

  • "Sound and image is 50/50, but sound is much cheaper." —Coppola quoting George Lucas (04:19)

• Resisting Genre Labels (06:00–07:00):

  • Coppola rejects the notion that films must fit genres, likening such thinking to reducing art to sports rankings.
  • "Art is not something you can rate that way… To turn that into a rating system is offensive to me." (06:00)

2. Casting & Making The Godfather

• Initial Vision & Studio Resistance (07:03–21:57):

  • Wrote The Conversation for Marlon Brando; faced studio resistance for casting Brando and Al Pacino in The Godfather.
  • "They said, 'Francis… Marlon Brando will never be in this picture…'" (15:47)

• Brando’s Screen Test (15:47–21:57):

  • Tells a vivid story of sneaking in a screen test of Brando, including details of Brando’s physical transformation into Vito Corleone.
  • "He started to turn into this character that he was inventing… I didn’t do anything." —Coppola (18:20)

• Oscars & Studio Politics (09:19–15:46):

  • Winning the Oscar for Patton shielded him from being fired; constant risk gave way to creative breakthroughs.

• Brando’s Reputation (22:01–23:29):

  • Brando was considered “washed up,” but Coppola ranks him among the greatest geniuses he’s met.

3. Writing, Collaboration, and Adaptation

• Mario Puzo Partnership (25:04–27:16):

  • Warm reminiscence of writing with Puzo, gambling together in Reno, and advocating for proper author credit.
  • "I’m the one who insisted that it always says, Mario Puzo’s Godfather." (25:07)

• Self-Assessment as Writer/Director (27:16–28:47):

  • Coppola expresses admiration for writers but says his true strengths are imagination, energy, and persistence.
  • On rewriting: "I’m willing to rewrite the script 100 times if each time makes it 1% better." (27:21)

• Prophetic Quality of His Films (28:12–28:50):

  • Multiple films accidentally predicted or anticipated major cultural events (The Conversation pre-Watergate, themes before women’s movement).

4. The Language of Film

• Script Versus Film (29:11–32:41):

  • Technical aspects of screenplay formatting exist for budgeting, not creativity; importance of “what you see and what you hear.”
  • Family legacy: Five generations in cinema, from inventing early film sound technology to present.

• Art as Time Manipulation (32:42–33:15):

  • Paintings and movies as different ways of controlling or freezing time.
  • "A painting is a movie, but frozen in one moment of time." (32:50)

5. Influence & Legacy

• Making an Impact (34:22–37:02):
  • Coppola’s dream is to inspire filmmakers; he values hearing that his films moved others to create.
  • "The greatest award… is when a young person comes [and says] 'I became a filmmaker because I saw your film.'" (36:08)

6. Origins & Community

• Film School & Early Industry (38:31–51:09):

  • Shift from theater to film after seeing Eisenstein’s October; early days at UCLA and difference in culture (theater collaboration vs. isolation in film).
  • Introduction to creative community: George Lucas, Carol Ballard, John Milius, and more.

• American Zoetrope’s Vision (44:02–50:57):

  • Formation inspired by experience at Danish film collective; collective creativity and mutual support.

• Breaking into Hollywood (51:09–53:30):

  • Early industry was not welcoming to young, film-schooled directors. Coppola’s contemporary was Billy Friedkin.

7. Roger Corman & Learning by Doing

• Corman Years (53:32–62:04):

  • Rough beginnings: Poverty, student life, getting a shot via Corman by creatively “editing” a Russian film.
  • Anecdotes on being an “assistant,” making Dementia 13, learning the realities of low-budget, opportunistic filmmaking.

• Influence of Vincent Price & Hitchcock (62:34–63:39):

  • Warm stories about working with Vincent Price and admiration for Hitchcock’s technique, highlighting the importance of acting and writing.

8. Directing Style & The Role of Serendipity

• Embracing Accidents & The Unexpected (79:50–84:30):

  • Contrasts his organic, open-to-chance directing style with Hitchcock’s tightly planned approach.
  • "To me, making a film is like asking a question and the answer is the film. I don’t know the answer…" (79:50)
  • Tells the story of handing Brando the cat in The Godfather; Brando’s adaptability and improvisation.

• Problems as Opportunities (Apocalypse Now) (84:30–87:06):

  • Brando’s weight caused Coppola to reimagine scenes as iconic, using darkness and selective lighting.
  • "He poked his head in it. He poked his head out of it… he used it creatively." (85:51)

9. Mentorship & Apprenticeships

• Giving Young People Responsibility (101:52–103:13):
  • Passion for mentorship; believes the future depends on empowering youth.
  • "The way to save this wreck of a world is to include the young people, start giving them responsibility…" (102:00)

10. Making & Remaking: Iteration, Revision, and Doubt

• Studio Interference & Final Cuts (104:53–112:13):

  • Describes the tumultuous battle over Godfather’s music with Robert Evans, using a live audience screening to win the final decision.
  • "You can fire me and get a new director and have the new director put the music you want in, but I’m not going to take the music out. I love the music." (110:47)

• Perfectionism, Insecurity, and Critique (87:47–89:21):

  • Admits to being a perfectionist, insecure, and hardest on himself.

11. Autobiography in Art & Solipsism

• Life Reflected in Work (96:31–99:31):
  • Believes all his films are autobiographical; recent philosophical musings on solipsism, catalyzed by the novel Ant Kind by Charlie Kaufman.
  • "Maybe I am a solipsist movie director and I’m just making all of this stuff." (98:59)

12. The Film Industry: Past and Present

• Changes in Hollywood (117:08–119:35):
  • From the rise of the “blockbuster” and cable conglomerates to present-day studio focus on corporate debt and rigid infrastructure.
  • Industry prioritizes financial safety over creative risk.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Sound in Film:
  "We emphasized sound because we knew it had a big role to play in what the film was going to be like… sound is cheaper to get than pictures." —Coppola (04:19)

• On Art and Genres:
  "What genre is the Taj Mahal?" —Coppola (06:00)

• On Collaborating with Brando:
  "He started to turn into this character that he was inventing. I didn’t do anything. I just put you. And he took the provolone and he used the props, the cigar." (18:20)

• On Mentoring Youth:
  "The way to save this wreck of a world is to include the young people… I would give 14-year-olds the right to vote…" (102:00)

• On Film as Discovery:
  "If you don’t know how to make a movie and you admit it and listen to the movie, the movie will tell you how to make it." (79:50)

• On Self-Doubt and Art:
  "I’m insecure. I don’t know of any artist who’s totally calm… you could fall off at any time." (87:52)

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Topic | Timestamp (MM:SS) | |---------------------------------------------|----------------------| | Dictating The Conversation | 00:02–02:12 | | The importance of sound | 04:16–05:56 | | On genres & art | 06:00–07:00 | | Godfather casting saga & Brando story | 07:03–21:57 | | Puzo & collaboration | 25:04–27:16 | | Self-doubt, writing, and forecasting | 27:21–28:47 | | Screenwriting as blueprint | 29:11–32:41 | | Inspiration & legacy | 34:22–37:02 | | Early film school era | 38:31–43:11 | | Formation of American Zoetrope | 44:02–50:57 | | Corman years & Dementia 13 | 53:32–62:04 | | Shooting Apocalypse Now | 75:52–78:09 | | Embracing accidents in filmmaking | 79:50–84:30 | | Brando’s process | 83:28–87:06 | | Autobiography and solipsism in art | 96:31–99:31 | | Studio battles over Godfather | 104:53–112:13 | | Industry transformation | 117:08–119:35 |

Conclusion

This episode is a masterclass in both cinema history and creative philosophy, delivered in Francis Ford Coppola’s candid, anecdotal style. From tales of industry resistance and technical innovation to reflections on legacy, apprenticeship, and the transformative power of risk, listeners are treated to stories and wisdom spanning decades. Essential for filmmakers, creatives, and anyone interested in the intersections of art, life, and legacy.