Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin

Episode: Mel Ziegler

Date: March 26, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation between legendary music producer Rick Rubin and Mel Ziegler, writer, entrepreneur, and co-founder of Banana Republic and The Republic of Tea. Ziegler reflects on his unconventional path through journalism, fashion, entrepreneurship, and Eastern philosophy. The discussion spans his early days as a journalist, the birth and soul of Banana Republic, his foray into the tea world, artistic creativity, personal philosophy, and the importance of not knowing.

Tone: Conversational, reflective, witty, and honest, with flashes of self-deprecating humor and philosophical insight.

Table of Contents

• Founding Banana Republic: Serendipity and Army Surplus (00:23–13:46)
• Creativity, Catalogs, and Growth (13:46–25:24)
• Selling to Gap and the Aftermath (25:24–42:08)
• Post-BR: Tea, Philosophy, and Life (42:08–77:46)
• Art, Family, and Spiritual Practice (77:46–83:44)
• Reflections on Life, Observation, and Not Knowing (83:44–end)

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Founding Banana Republic: Serendipity and Army Surplus (00:23–13:46)

Inspiration from "Think and Grow Rich"

• Mel spots the book Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill and is struck by its simple directive: "Think of how much money you want to make. Think of how long it's going to take you to make that money and get started." ([00:23])
• At the time, Mel and his wife Patricia quit their journalism jobs to travel, with just $1,500 saved—emphasizing how much easier it was to take risks in the '70s.

The Fateful Jacket in Australia

• While in an Aussie army disposal (surplus) store, Mel buys a distinctive 1940s British Burma jacket that gets repeated compliments back in the US, sparking the core idea: sell army surplus as fashion ([00:23–02:43]).

Early Operations and First Sale

• Mel, coming from journalism, dives into researching US surplus auctions. He and Patricia navigate insider club of surplus "jobbers" in Oakland, buying 500 Spanish paratrooper shirts at about $2 each ([03:18–06:00]).
• First sale happens at a dinner party to friend Herbert Gold (the sleeves were all too short, explaining surplus status) ([08:32–08:55]).
• Initial attempt to sell at Marin flea market: sales slow until Patricia suggests they double the price—then they sell out ([09:06–10:15]).
• Key Insight: "The best asset we had is having no experience whatsoever." – Mel Ziegler ([10:19])

Notable Quote:

"We were professional amateurs, and I've been one ever since."
—Mel Ziegler ([10:28])

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Creativity, Catalogs, and Growth (13:46–25:24)

Bootstrapping and Unique Branding

• First store opened in Mill Valley ($250/month, couldn't lock the door due to shared space) ([11:02–12:00]).
• Naming: "The name was Banana Republic. And the reason I named it Banana Republic is I knew it would get noticed...making a political statement on top of everything else." ([12:02–12:20])

Catalogs as Literary & Artistic Works

• Patricia hand-illustrated early catalogs; Mel wrote literary product descriptions ([12:58–13:46]).
• Mel leveraged his media connections to get attention, including sending catalogs to every city desk, which leads to a big break on New York's radio ([15:27–16:30]).
• Selling the catalog itself for $1 as a literary object; first influx of real money through mail orders ([16:33–17:15]).

The Power of Story and Scarcity

• Each item genuinely limited because it was real surplus; uniqueness created ongoing demand ([14:19–14:40]).
• Ingenious modifications: converting army sleeping bags to vests, later dyeing clothes in distinctive colors ([14:40–15:00]).

Notable Quote:

"It was all about creativity. Just do anything. Just make it fun and make it true, make it honest. Just no limits. If you can imagine it, you can do it."
—Mel Ziegler ([12:20])

Notable Quote:

"Would you buy a Swedish army gas mask bag without the gas mask, because it was written about, or would you...say, I have to own one...? But everything had its story."
—Mel Ziegler ([13:57])

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Selling to Gap and the Aftermath (25:24–42:08)

Scaling and Selling to The Gap

• Four years in, exhausted but hoping to grow, Mel and Patricia meet Don Fisher, founder of The Gap. Fisher is fascinated by the store's unique, lovingly curated surplus items, creativity, and customer love ([27:16–29:59]).
• Mel candid about business naiveté: "Everything wrong from protecting our asset, from getting the value that we really created — everything wrong." ([30:02])
• Don Fisher's offer: Mel and Patricia run Banana Republic as they see fit post-sale, as long as it's profitable.

Banana Republic's Creative Golden Age

• With Gap’s resources, BR grows to 50+ stores and 30 million catalog circulations ([33:33–33:47]).
• Company culture remains nontraditional—hiring talented "unemployables," creative staff amplify Mel and Patricia's founding vision ([33:48–35:14]).
• Stores each designed with unique themes, blurring lines between retail, theater, and fiction; catalogs continue as literary/artistic hybrids ([36:14–36:27]).

"When It All Changed"

• Black Monday, 1987: market crash causes The Gap to panic, bring in analysts, and second-guess the Banana Republic model ([38:02–41:15]).
• Corporate rigidities clash with creative autonomy. Mel and Patricia leave after new pressures make the environment "not what we bought into" ([41:16]).

Notable Quote:

"He said, what do you do for markdowns? Patricia said, we don't. We mark them up."
—Mel Ziegler ([29:00])

Notable Quote:

"The joy of growing older is really accepting how little I know — and enjoying it."
—Mel Ziegler ([82:29])

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Post-BR: Tea, Philosophy, and Life (42:08–77:46)

A Turn Inward: Meditation and Daoism

• After BR, Mel turns away from ambition to parenthood and spiritual practice: "I wanted to think in a completely different way or not think at all" ([42:32–42:56]).
• Long study of Taoism (esp. Chuang Tzu), Krishnamurti. Vipassana retreat catalyzes his next entrepreneurial idea ([42:32–44:10]).

Notable Quote:

"I just realized that I was like a wound-up toy. Succeed, achieve, succeed, achieve... It was in my DNA."
—Mel Ziegler ([44:56])

The Republic of Tea: Letters, Philosophy, and Sipping

• The idea for Republic of Tea comes to Mel during a tea-deprived meditation retreat; he calls himself the "Minister of Leaves" ([68:47]).
• The brand is founded through creative correspondence (faxed letters) with a young social entrepreneur — the process itself published as a book, Republic of Tea: Letters to a Young Zentrepreneur ([70:38–72:16]).
• Packaging that tells stories, round teabags in round cans, playful branding ("sip by sip, not gulp by gulp") ([73:12–74:33]).
• Republic of Tea eventually sold to family owner committed to original vision ([75:03–77:27]).

Notable Quote:

"It had to be different... Let’s make [teabags] round. And what would be on the can would be exceptional names and stories and witticisms from the Minister of Leaves or anybody else."
—Mel Ziegler ([73:12])

Business as Creating Categories

• Both Banana Republic and Republic of Tea "created categories," not just companies.

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Art, Family, and Spiritual Practice (77:46–83:44)

Artistic Practice Flowing from Emptiness

• Mel describes painting as a spiritual practice: "I can't start a painting until I accept and enter the emptiness...the blank canvas, the silence." ([77:49–78:24])
• Family life centered around art; family bought an “art house” so everyone could create together ([79:44]).
• Describes the balance between intention and openness: "It's a commitment, and I can't think about it. If I think about it, I won't do it." ([82:03])

Notable Quote:

"What matters is where [the work is] coming from. You can see the source in almost every work... When you hit the one that's not [an idea or concept], that's life."
—Mel Ziegler ([82:29–83:44])

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Reflections on Life, Observation, and Not Knowing (83:44–end)

• On belief:

"I don't believe in belief."
—Mel Ziegler ([83:51])

Journalism: A Way of Seeing

• Early career as a self-motivated observer striving for objectivity, not fixed identity ([48:30–49:17]).
• Experiences in 1960s/70s journalism described as exhilarating; contrasting objectivity then with today’s partisan media ([53:59–62:23]).

On Growth, Openness, and the Value of Not Knowing

• Emphasizes humility, childlike appreciation, and creative fearlessness as keys to both business and artistry.
• Ending reflection: "The joy of growing older is really accepting how little I know and enjoying it." ([82:29])

Notable Quotes & Moments

• "We were professional amateurs, and I've been one ever since." —Mel ([10:28])
• "The best asset we had is having no experience whatsoever." —Mel ([10:19])
• "It was all about creativity. Just do anything. Just make it fun and make it true, make it honest. Just no limits." —Mel ([12:20])
• "Would you buy a Swedish army gas mask bag without the gas mask, because it was written about, or would you...say, I have to own one...? But everything had its story." —Mel ([13:57])
• "He said, what do you do for markdowns? Patricia said, we don't. We mark them up." ([29:00])
• "I just realized that I was like a wound-up toy. Succeed, achieve, succeed, achieve... It was in my DNA." —Mel ([44:56])
• "It had to be different... Let’s make [teabags] round... exceptional names and stories and witticisms from the Minister of Leaves or anybody else." ([73:12])
• "It's a commitment, and I can't think about it. If I think about it, I won't do it. Right." —Mel ([82:03])
• "I don't believe in belief." ([83:51])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Origin of Banana Republic: [00:23–06:00]
• First Surplus Sale/Breakthrough: [08:32–10:15]
• Catalog/Marketing Innovation: [12:58–17:15]
• Selling to Gap: [27:16–30:02]
• Growth and Store Design: [33:33–36:27]
• Black Monday and Exit: [38:02–41:15]
• Philosophy and Meditation Turn: [42:08–44:56]
• Republic of Tea Story: [65:27–77:27]
• Artistic Journey: [77:49–83:44]
• Reflections on Not Knowing: [83:44–end]

In Summary

Mel Ziegler's story is one of embracing not-knowing, creative reinvention, and following curiosity without fear of failure. Alternately playful, philosophical, and practical, the episode offers a masterclass in authentic entrepreneurship and creative living — from the flea markets of Marin to the heart of Daoist emptiness, always with an eye for the next joyful surprise.