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- [00:02]
Narrator/Host
Tetragrammaton.
- [00:25]
M.I.A.
I was on this island and I had not much of a direction, but I was gonna be a painter, and I studied at St. Martin's and I was really into art and film, but not music, really. But I was into music, but it was.
- [00:40]
Interviewer
That was not going to be your path.
- [00:42]
M.I.A.
Yes, I was 100% a music fan. Yes, I knew all of my beats, all of my stuff, all of my artists. Like, even before I was a teenager, I would trek, like, halfway across London to find the right 12 inch. And I was obsessed. And even in London, when I would hang out or bunk school and explore London, I would be drawn to meeting friends based on their music taste. Obviously, most teenagers are. But I would hear, like, people playing music out their window, and I would literally knock on their door and be like, hey, I want to be your friend. You know, like, because there was no phones. Cell phones, or there's no other way of finding people back then. So you would just walk down the street and if you knew that song is, like, a banging song, if they're.
- [01:36]
Interviewer
Listening to that, yes, that's someone I want to talk to.
- [01:39]
M.I.A.
Exactly. And if you met people on the underground tubes and they were, like, wearing a T shirt that said a certain song, and you're like, okay, that's my best friend, you know, it was just like that. So I realized that all of my life, like, everyone I had around was met through this musical thing, but I never wanted to be a musician. But my musical friend who was in a band called Elastica, she wanted to go somewhere, and I had this painting exhibition, and it did really well, and it was my first break and.
- [02:15]
Interviewer
Tell me about the paintings.
- [02:17]
M.I.A.
So I went to make a documentary film about the war in Sri Lanka. And then when I came back to make the film for Channel 4, I don't know, it just kind of fell through because the person who was sort of helping me commission it at Channel four, he was the head of documentaries. And I felt like I got in the way of this serious subject, you know? So everyone would be like, why do you want to talk about this? Because this is so heavy. But you seem, like, not like that person, you know, and you're from there.
- [02:58]
Interviewer
No.
- [02:59]
M.I.A.
Yes, I'm from there. And. But because I'd went to art school, and I was kind of like, I was cool, and people felt documentarians are quite boring and serious people. And so he asked me out on a date, and I felt really, like, I don't know, disappointed or, like, let down by that. So I didn't want to carry on making this film. And so I thought I'd just stay at home and convert these stills into paintings. So that was my first thing to be reclusive and to do something where you're just self reliant, don't need money. It was the cheapest thing I could do, you know, and generated these paintings. And my friend was like, oh, you can show them in my space. Showed them. Then things happened pretty quickly. Got picked up for this alternate Paterna Prize. And people was like, yeah, we have a painter, you know, but another person's arrived in the art scene. And I was like, yeah, all in. Like, this is what I'm gonna do. And then my singer friend was having some health issues and she was like, I need to take this time out. And since you're my best friend, you should come and be with me. And I was okay, but I was crying because I was like, wow, it took so long to get this break and you're asking me at the cusp of this thing. And it's gonna change everything because I've never been on holiday. I've never to that point. And I was like, the last thing I want to do is sit somewhere with you where nothing's going on. I would go mad and I have to work off the momentum of the paintings doing well and keep working on it. And she was like, no, you have to do this for me. And so I made a decision to go and it turned out to be the best thing ever.
- [05:02]
Interviewer
Tell me about that. Where did you go and what happened?
- [05:05]
M.I.A.
We went to a little island called Bequia, and it's in St. Vincent. And when we arrived, musically it was amazing because everyone had sound systems everywhere in the street and it played music all the time. Like, even when you sleep at three in the morning, it's on. Six in the morning, it's on. It's just constant. And so I was just like sleeping to bass lines, waking up to bass lines. Everything had a bass line in the background. And, you know, there was just not a quiet moment. And I thought, oh, this is not so bad, because I know all of these songs, you know, because the Jamaican scene in London was huge. And so suddenly I was like, oh my God, this is like all the songs I grew up on. And to experience it in that environment was amazing. And I was out dancing in the street because, like, there was no clubs. They just had a shack in the street. And it was all hilly, so the parents can see everything that was happening. And so one of them came up to me and said, you know, we see you dancing every night in the street. Why don't you go to church on Sunday? And I was like, okay. So I went. So I think we partied like Monday to Saturday. And then on Sunday I went to church. And then when I was in church, I was clapping all crazy and they stopped the service and they came up and they said, you know, we've seen you dancing. Like, all of a sudden your rhythm has disappeared with Jesus. Like, what happened to you? You know? And I was like, you're right, it's weird. I just can't do this. And so that day, because this lady asked me that, I went home and I'm like, I'm gonna figure it out. Like, what is wrong with me? Just doing this normal clap. And I realized that I was just clapping out this entire new beat on top of the vocals.
- [07:10]
Interviewer
I see.
- [07:11]
M.I.A.
And I was like, oh, that's really weird because when I'm dancing, it kind of comes out different in my body. But when I have to isolate it to just my hands and follow like some sort of beat, I just cannot do it.
- [07:23]
Interviewer
It's like you're playing a counter rhythm.
- [07:25]
M.I.A.
Yes. I was filling in all the blanks and stuff.
- [07:28]
Interviewer/Commentator
I see.
- [07:29]
M.I.A.
And then that day we wrote the galang beat, it was like really restraining yourself.
- [07:36]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [07:36]
M.I.A.
And converting it into a machine that made some sort of pattern, you know, of the thing your body wanted to do. And then it all just like clicked. And then my friend came home and she listened to it and she was like, wow, you might be a songwriter, you know. She was like, I think you can do this.
- [08:00]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [08:01]
M.I.A.
And really, I was like, I wanna write stuff so you have a new record to make. And then I'm gonna go back to my painting. Like 10 days from now, I'm gonna write you an album and then I'm gonna go back to my painting and you're gonna do music and not get bored.
- [08:17]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [08:18]
M.I.A.
And that was really the deal. And as we started writing more and more, it started to emerge that it was actually its own thing. And then that was it. When I came back to London, I locked myself in the room, Just stopped all of my socializing.
- [08:38]
Interviewer
Stopped painting as well.
- [08:39]
M.I.A.
Stopped painting, stop everything. And for three months, I just sat in this room and learned my voice.
- [08:48]
Interviewer
Tell me about the process. How do you do that?
- [08:51]
M.I.A.
Well, it was just that I'd never heard my voice through a microphone. So I had this tape deck, a four track, and there's 100 pound mic. And it was just like Making these sounds and going like, wow, that's my voice. That's crazy. You know, and then just becoming comfortable and then having fun with it and then just letting that be the thing. So not trying to copy someone else. Not trying to. Not trying to put pressure to be good and great or anything. Just really just speaking and then learning, like, how it sounded loud and how it sounded quiet. How it sounded when you whisper. Hey. And just like being mind blown by it and just like, whoa, you can make it do anything. And just kind of learning the voice as an instrument. And then the beat making bit became secondary. And I was like, okay, so the documentary went into being the paintings, but maybe I can make those turn into songs.
- [09:58]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
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M.I.A.
And so the paintings were of, like, a revolutionary vibes because it was content.
- [10:06]
Interviewer
That was shot in all of the different modalities. The content was the same.
- [10:12]
M.I.A.
It was the same.
- [10:13]
Interviewer
It was always telling the story about a revolutionary period.
- [10:18]
M.I.A.
Yes. It was also revolutionary in that it was being made with no money and no rules. So, like, in terms of the industry, it was like, I just need to hear someone that tells me some information that I don't know. And I wasn't sometimes getting that in the songs, but, like, say the 90s hip hop gave you stuff, you know, like, you were like, okay, I just, like, study the whole thing when you hear a song. But we were in, like, 2002, 2003, when. Where it was much more like manufactured pop music.
- [10:58]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [10:59]
M.I.A.
And you had, like, Simon Cowell, like, churning out bands. And, you know, it was like that era of, like, everything being super shiny. But we were at war in Afghanistan. The Tamils were still at war. And you had, like, artists like Banksy, that was coming from my neighborhood, who always wanted to, like, mess with the status quo. And so coming from the art scene, you had to be like that as a musician. It was like, okay, if I'm not gonna be Banksy, then it just naturally became like the Banksy version of the music, you know, and it was about saying, okay, like, we don't have the certain luxuries to talk about certain things. Like, there are great things and I'd like to talk about love and all this beautiful stuff, but right now I don't have the luxury to do that. And it's something you have to work at, but you have to start where you start and, you know, report on, like, the social situation that you're in. Yeah. So I just, like, wrote things that were also quite personal because I kind of knew all also that you were gonna Be criticized. And so it had to be really personal. And if it's coming from truth, no one can knock it. Like, no matter what anyone says, you're sharing your experience. Yeah.
- [12:32]
Interviewer
No one can comment on your diary being good or bad.
- [12:35]
M.I.A.
And also, if it's true, you don't know any other way. It's better to never second guess what other people are gonna like and do exactly what you feel in the purest form. Because at least you know you were true to yourself in that moment. And you can evolve and you can change and you can revisit your ideas in that moment. If it was coming from a true place, there's nothing to criticize. So I was already aware of that. So I always kept it very. Like, that's the most important thing.
- [13:10]
Interviewer
In the time that you were finding your voice, was it only the sound of the instrument or was it also the words?
- [13:19]
M.I.A.
The words. It kind of just comes naturally. I was kind of good at it because I wanted to be a filmmaker. So I wrote quite a lot, but I always fell asleep with my 4 track on one side and my notebook on the other side. So, like, you wake up and you just write down what kind of comes to you. If I thought about a beat and I fell asleep, it would just tell me what I need to say kind of thing, and then you wake up. And so I often worked out of my bed because that's just how far the.
- [14:02]
Interviewer
Spear was probably the closest place to your subconscious. You're tapping into that part of yourself that you reach through dreams.
- [14:10]
M.I.A.
Yep. Your bed is sort of like an altar as well. And, you know, if a beat is good, you can't get it out of your head. So then when you go to sleep and it's in your head, you're naturally. Your subconscious is working out the tune and the beat and what you would say. And, you know, and then you're like, if you fight that and you ignore it and you get up and you start doing other things. I feel like sometimes there's layers, you know, like you can still live with it. And then you'll walk by someone and they would say a word and then it would trigger it again. And you're like, oh, yeah, I gotta go and write that down. And at that time, I heard that Eminem, like, he always had a notebook or something.
- [14:54]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [14:55]
M.I.A.
And I remember thinking, I was like that. Like, I was riding on bus tickets. And when you have it, you gotta write it down, you know? And that if you forget it, you might not come back. So I was always Just like write everywhere. And it was just like all the time. That's everything. Writing on it. So, yeah, the words were like coming, but it wasn't serious, you know, it was just entertaining myself is what I thought.
- [15:22]
Interviewer
Would you say you were learning the language of music?
- [15:25]
M.I.A.
I was definitely going, okay. As a filmmaker, everyone taught me to write these long things that last an hour. And then as a musician, you had to squish it into three minutes. And so you're like, how do you tell a story in three minutes? And so that was the only process where you're like, okay, you have to edit, edit, edit, edit, edit and refine everything. And you have to refine it like you're talking to a 10 year old. And it was kind of like a process that I was learning and I really enjoyed doing. But 10 years into it, it became like a rut.
- [16:06]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [16:06]
M.I.A.
You know, like you could get stuck in that and suddenly it's very difficult to break out of that.
- [16:15]
Narrator/Host
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- [17:43]
M.I.A.
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- [17:50]
Interviewer
What was the first thing that you put out into the world musically?
- [17:55]
M.I.A.
So Galang was the first song we wrote and the demo tape. I decided when we got back to London that it was still not me as an artist, that I was like, now I have to scout girls to sing this like I'm gonna be Simon Cowell. So I scouted these three girls to bmia.
- [18:16]
Interviewer
That's interesting.
- [18:17]
M.I.A.
Yes. And our first recording of Galang was me demoing to them how the vocal should be and then them replacing that vocal. So EMI at the time they had Justine's band Elastica. And so she managed to, like, wing me some studio time. It was like 150 quids worth. And that's how much I earned, like, per week when I worked at this shop. So that was like, okay, I can afford that. And we went and recorded Galang. So first there was a version with my vocal, and then there was a version with the girls singing.
- [18:56]
Interviewer
The professional singers.
- [18:57]
M.I.A.
The professional singers, exactly. And then people started hearing my version and saying, oh, this is much more interesting. You should sing it. And so the original Galang, which is the Galang that's on the album, is the original demo of me vocaling for the girls.
- [19:20]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yes.
- [19:21]
M.I.A.
So it's not even with the intention, like, this is me and I've arrived. It's like, it's something like this.
- [19:29]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yes.
- [19:29]
M.I.A.
And you guys do the real thing. And that's the first song. And we put out 500 white labels. And then it got picked up on Radio 1 as Racket of the week. And I was working in the shop and I was having to do, like, phone radio interviews. Yeah, it was kind of crazy. And then. And then Excel happened to be. So, like, my house was there, the shop I worked at was there, and Excel was like the next.
- [19:59]
Interviewer
All three right in a row.
- [20:00]
M.I.A.
Yeah, it was like right there, a block there, block there, and a block there. So it really was quite effortless.
- [20:08]
Interviewer
But you didn't move there to be close to xl. It just was like that.
- [20:10]
M.I.A.
I just happened to be there. Yeah, the shop I was working at, there was a boys shop across the street called Supra, and all the boys hung out there. And a friend of mine was working there and he said, oh, this guy came in and he says he's from this record label called xl and he's interested in meeting you and maybe you should go and find him. And that's when I found the address, and it is on the next block. So I just, in my lunchtime, walked over there and knocked on the door and I was like, I think you're looking for me. And it's in the documentary where Nick Huggett's like. She came in and she said, oh, you looking for me? And so I did. I was, I think you're looking for me. Cause that's what I heard.
- [20:54]
Interviewer
That's what you heard.
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M.I.A.
And it was.
- [20:56]
Interviewer
Nick Huggett was the person you played it for.
- [20:57]
M.I.A.
Yeah. So Nick Huggett also signed Dizzy Rascal.
- [21:02]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [21:02]
Interviewer
And Adele.
- [21:03]
M.I.A.
And Adele. And so he was famous because he'd signed Dizzy. You know, that hasn't happened yet. And so, yeah, Nick signed me and then the rest is history. Yeah.
- [21:19]
Interviewer
See if I have my phone. It'd be nice if we listened to that first song.
- [21:23]
M.I.A.
Yeah. The beat is, you know, everyone involved, it's their first time making something like that. So Ross from the Fat Truckers, their music is not like that, but he was doing something new. And Steve Mackey comes from pulpit and, you know, he makes indie music.
- [21:45]
Interviewer
You want to play it?
- [21:56]
M.I.A.
London calling Speak the slang Na boy say what? One girl say what what? London calling Speak the slang Na boy say what One girl say what what Slam get down, get down get one paranoid with the head of BMW how the hell is on the. Let's go get two if river's going to run through work is going to.
- [23:15]
Interviewer/Commentator
Save you.
- [23:18]
M.I.A.
Don'T let it get to you if it's got your grandfather Lazy days sa.
- [24:40]
Interviewer
Foreign do you remember how you made the beat?
- [25:17]
M.I.A.
Yes. On the 505 Roland. 505. So peaches had that. So she's the one who introduced me and Justine to this machine. And Justine was playing the guitar and she'd never had a beat machine before. And so Peaches would try to teach me it. And we made this beat and like I said, I had the demo and then we were like, but we need somebody to take it off our machines. And so we paired up with Ross from Fat Truckers, who then added like the Moog bass line and yeah, the. The 505 bought all the other, like, bingy bongy sounds. Yeah, but at the time, like, the dancehall scene was the most progressive in beat making at the time. And they were also very, like stripped down and it was like, wow. Like they're just like making beats from space, you know, like, they just did not care. And I just loved that. So. But we were like, oh, one day we're going to get to making these kind of beats. But we were doing like weird electronic kind of avant garde stuff because we were just like, oh, girls messing around on this thing, you know, so it was kind of like a mashup of everything. And people were like, wow, what is this thing? You know, this.
- [26:42]
Interviewer
I imagine this sounded really foreign compared to everything else that was playing at the time.
- [26:48]
M.I.A.
Yeah. Everyone's like, what is this?
- [26:50]
Interviewer
What is this?
- [26:50]
M.I.A.
Yeah. And then also like your vocals, because it's so nonchalant. And it was nonchalant. Cause it was just a demo.
- [26:58]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [26:58]
M.I.A.
You know, and people thought, okay, that's her.
- [27:01]
Interviewer
You were demonstrating how it went. You weren't singing the song.
- [27:03]
M.I.A.
No, I wasn't. So they were like, what is this? Like, who is that? And then a couple of months later, I heard there was this DJ called Diplo coming into town, and I had one of his songs, his first demo. And I was like, oh, that guy gets it. I was like, he knows beats. And I was so like, you know, I was kind of like a beat junkie. Like, I really knew my stuff and I like really hard beats. So I needed somebody who understood that. And even though he was making, like, quite like, trip hop kind of stuff, he also knew the dancehall stuff and the Brazilian stuff, like the variations in hip hop. And that was the first time I took it to a club and was like, can you play this record? So I met him and I. And I gave him Sunshowers in Guerlain. And then we made the Piracy Funds Terrorism mixtape, like, a few months after that. So that all added to, like, the momentum, you know, that it was gonna stay weird, that there was something else happening because it became like a movement. And for the first time, you would go to one of our club shows and you had kids from everywhere, like the indie kids and the punk kids. And, you know, like, you had the Clash reference in that Glang song. Which is weird because in hindsight, I'm like, wow, that's mad. Because I was into the Clash and the Clash living in West London, so their presence was around. But the Clash come from the area in London where my family lived in the 70s when me and my sister were born. So we come from Wandsworth, and they also come from Wandsworth. And it's weird because my family story is the Clash. We were clashing the government for 35 years or something.
- [29:04]
Interviewer
Tell me the story.
- [29:06]
M.I.A.
Well, so when I was born in Wandsworth, I think Clash did their first show. It was actually outside, like Sex Pistols and the Clash. They were all performing in Clapham Junction, which is Wandsworth. And then my dad has got the craziest story. So he was not into politics at all. As a 16 year old, he got a scholarship to Russia because he was the smartest kid in Sri Lanka. And they put him on the first commercial flight from Sri Lanka to Moscow, which the Yuri Gagarin came from space, right, and decided that was his life mission, to go around the world and preach world peace. And the first place he went to was Sri Lanka. And when he went there, he decided to launch a scientific program to industrialize Sri Lanka. So they set up a program where they're like, we're going to scout the smartest kids and we're going to go and teach them science. And my dad got chosen. And when my dad passed the exam, he thought he's going to Paris, but it was a Russian university called Patrice. And he read it wrong. He was on a plane to Moscow, completely thinking he was going to France.
- [30:27]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [30:29]
M.I.A.
So he lands in the snow and. Yeah. With flip flops on. Has a massive cultural shock at 16.
- [30:37]
Interviewer
He was 16, you dad 16.
- [30:39]
M.I.A.
And he came from a mud hut. It's not even a town with a concrete house. He came from a farm. So he went there, and he was a bit of a maths genius. And he was doing space design. Okay. And machine design and all of that. And then his professor happened to be this guy who was quite clashy, and he supported a freedom fighter. And he got exiled by the Russian government. So he got fired from the university and he had to go and live, like, two hours out of Moscow. And my dad said, if I don't visit him every weekend, they're just gonna kill him. Because that's what they do. They isolate you, and then once you have no friends, they'll just silently kill you. So my dad was like, I made it a point to go and visit my professor every weekend and make him food and hang out with him. You know, the equivalent of what he did was if you put your name on a petition to free, like, Julian Assange. And the professor did something like that. The Russian government had imprisoned a guy who stood up for something, and he signed a petition saying he should be released. And that's why he lost his job.
- [31:59]
Interviewer
He called out an injustice.
- [32:01]
M.I.A.
Yes. And was arrested. And up until this point, my dad's completely clueless. He's just studying design.
- [32:07]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [32:07]
Interviewer
And he's a kid.
- [32:08]
M.I.A.
He's a kid. And so he starts going around to the professor's house, and the professor happened to be an expert in Tamil language.
- [32:19]
Interviewer
What are the odds?
- [32:20]
M.I.A.
What are the odds? So he had this incredible library of all of the ancient Tamil texts. So my dad really studied Tamil through a Russian Jewish professor who was exiled. Every weekend he started learning these books and the context, like, even, like, Bhagavad Gita and, like, all the religious texts, you know, it's like, really specific stuff.
- [32:47]
Interviewer
It's an incredible story.
- [32:49]
M.I.A.
Yeah. It's crazy.
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Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [32:51]
M.I.A.
And so that's how my dad got injected a tiny bit of nationalism. Right. So he, like, studied this, and he was like, wow, this is actually a really old culture. And it's really, like, traditional and important and the language.
- [33:07]
Interviewer
But in Sri Lanka, he Didn't know the history?
- [33:10]
M.I.A.
No. My grandpa was like a headmaster, but they were a Catholic family, so he never studied, like, religious Hindu texts. And he's never been introduced to that. The family had been Catholic for a long time. So my dad went and learned, like, all of it kind of thing.
- [33:28]
Interviewer
How long was he in Russia for?
- [33:31]
M.I.A.
He was there for about four or five years. So, yeah, he left when he was like 21, 22. So he was learning all this stuff. And this is what happened. The professor started converting the Tamil liberal ideas, like Hindu texts into Russian and then selling these books. So they started making like, loads of money and they would sell like 5,000 copies every weekend. And the Russian kids in the 60s, they were like, oh, my God, what is this shit? They'd never been introduced to anything liberal.
- [34:07]
Interviewer
The same thing was happening all over the world. These ancient texts in San Francisco, for example. It was the time for these old ideas to come back. Yes, that's what happened in the 60s.
- [34:21]
M.I.A.
Something happened.
- [34:22]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [34:22]
Interviewer
All over the world.
- [34:23]
M.I.A.
All over the world, yeah. So what my dad was saying is that in the 60s, like, Che Guebra would come to Moscow to do lectures, and my dad, you know, he would listen to everybody. But at the same time, the Russians always thought it's the Americans that are corrupting these kids with these liberal ideas. Like, where is this coming from? So they started looking for who's doing this? They knew it was my dad's professor who had these books. And then the professor hired my dad.
- [34:52]
Interviewer
It's funny calling them liberal ideas. Cause they're ancient ideas. They're not.
- [34:56]
M.I.A.
They are.
- [34:56]
Interviewer
He wasn't teaching something new, he was teaching something old.
- [34:59]
M.I.A.
Yes, yes. But they were considered. It was unwiring the fabric of, like. I see was happening at the time. And they were like, we have to eradicate anyone who's bringing anything new at.
- [35:12]
Interviewer
That point in time. Was religion illegal in Russia?
- [35:18]
M.I.A.
I don't know, like the 60s going on to like, 65 to 70. We're talking about specifically. It may be because my dad also went to Italy and he smuggled the Catholic Bible and stuff into Russia. And that was. He said he had to do it with those, like, spy movies where they have to take photos of. Yeah, he was. I had to take pictures of all 600 pages, hide it in, like, you know, stuff and smuggle it into Russia. And that was just like a Catholic Bible. I didn't even think that that was, you know. But even you couldn't go against ancient.
- [35:57]
Interviewer
It's ancient ideas. It's not it wasn't these new, crazy new ideas.
- [36:03]
M.I.A.
It's mad because then my dad actually, at the age of 21, smuggled the professor and the whole family because of all of this stuff. And it is to do with books and knowledge as well.
- [36:16]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [36:17]
M.I.A.
It's not like my dad was doing anything crazy.
- [36:19]
Interviewer
No, just preserving knowledge.
- [36:20]
M.I.A.
Yes. The wisdom of knowledge is so knowledge based.
- [36:23]
Interviewer
How did he get them out and where did he take them to?
- [36:25]
M.I.A.
Because my dad's Catholic. When he went to Italy, to the, you know, the cathedral and to the places to get the copies of the Bible, he knew a Sri Lankan nun who'd known him ages before, and they provided like a temporary housing for his professor's family. So my dad kind of negotiated this at like 21, then went back to Russia, smuggled them all out, and then he left them in the monastery with this woman being the point of contact where he was writing letters and making sure everyone was all right. And at the time, I found out my dad was actually in love with the professor's daughter. And that's why he was inspired to do all this crazy stuff he's doing. Cause I was like, that's a lot, you know. So he flew to London and he's like, I'm gonna wait here until their visa gets approved to come to London. So he left them in Italy, came to London at 21. He didn't know anyone in London, but he's working in London now in a factory. He's doing like night shifts to earn money to feed this family.
- [37:38]
Interviewer
Do you know how he chose to go to London?
- [37:40]
M.I.A.
I guess it's because he, like, it's an English speaking country. And he had this engineering degree and it was like, oh, yeah, you can get a job at an airplane factory. And I guess they had that manufacturing capabilities at the time and needed engineers and stuff. And he was going there, but he thought that they were going to be there in a month or something. But he said it turned a month into two. And then it just went on and on. And in the end, the British didn't give them the visa, but America did. And so that family left to America. And my dad was kind of like, heartbroken, and we're stuck in London for no reason. And fast forward to Clapham Junction outside the Clash and the Sex Pistols gig. He's in a pub and he's drowning his sorrows because the girlfriend's left and said, see you later. And he was depressed and had no money to go back to Russia because he sent it all to this family. All the time. And he was like, sharing bedsit with some other Tamils he'd met kind of thing. And in walks my uncle, which is my mom's brother, and he had a fashion business. And he was like, I'm looking for somebody to marry my sister. And my dad needed money, and he.
- [39:10]
Interviewer
Was looking for someone to marry his sister. For what reason?
- [39:13]
M.I.A.
Because my mom was on a student visa.
- [39:16]
Interviewer
I see.
- [39:16]
M.I.A.
And it was running out in a way, and he was like, I need somebody with a visa. And for some reason, my dad had a. A longer visa.
- [39:24]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [39:24]
Interviewer
So if they got married, they'd be able to both stay.
- [39:27]
M.I.A.
Yeah. So my dad was like, I need the money, and my mom's like, I need the visa. And they got married, like, three days after.
- [39:36]
Interviewer
How long were they together for?
- [39:38]
M.I.A.
They were together until the war kind of intensified and my dad had to leave, you know, so they had me and my sister in London in that same situation. So this is what happened. He wasn't political, but when they moved into a bedsit together on the day of the wedding, they accidentally moved into a house of a guy who was political. So he was like a Tamil guy who took them in. And he was like, hey, for two years I've been trying to start a revolution. And every time I scout guys, they just keep running off.
- [40:16]
Interviewer
Tell me about the purpose of the revolution. What was the situation going on in Sri Lanka?
- [40:22]
M.I.A.
So at the time, they were needing to have a revolution.
- [40:27]
Interviewer
I don't know what that means, needing to have a revolution.
- [40:29]
M.I.A.
So the British left Sri Lanka.
- [40:31]
Interviewer
Yes.
- [40:31]
M.I.A.
And they gave the independence back to Sri Lanka. But the whole time the British was there, they educated the Tamils as the middle classes, and they kept the Sinhalese, which were the majority, as the working class. So the Tamil people, even though we were the minority, we had all the best jobs in the government. Okay. So they were the civil servant, and they were.
- [40:54]
Interviewer
How long was the British rule?
- [40:56]
M.I.A.
From the 1800s. And.
- [40:59]
Interviewer
And everyone spoke English.
- [41:01]
M.I.A.
Yes. That was kind of like our national, you know, and our schooling system was like Cambridge, Oxford Standard. There was always visas and travel between Sri Lanka. It was a Commonwealth country, which is also why my dad had the visa. And there was a protest. And my dad's dad, my grandpa, went to this protest outside the Parliament. And he got beat up and they threw him in the canal to die. And my grandpa found a hole, you know, the pipe in the canal, and he swam through the pipe and he escaped. And he was in hospital with the dislocated shoulder, broken ribs, and everything. And he wrote to my dad, and he's like, you need to come back here because the situation is bad, you know, and that we need people getting involved to speak to the government that this is not right. And the protests are getting violent. We don't know what to do.
- [42:02]
Interviewer
And so much explain more about what was going on. So the English leave.
- [42:07]
M.I.A.
The English left when I gave the power back to the Sinhalese, and the Sinhalese overnight decided to become quite totalitarian.
- [42:16]
Interviewer
I see. And they were minority as well, you were saying?
- [42:18]
M.I.A.
No, they were the majority. So they were the 75% population. Tamils were 25. And they said, oh, it's our turn to get our backs on hundreds year of you guys being protected by the British. So now we're gonna, like, annihilate you. And they kind of came in and said, we're gonna take away Tamil language as a national thing. On street signs.
- [42:44]
Interviewer
Do you know if. When the British left, if it was viewed as, like, freeing, was that the perception was that now Sri Lanka is free?
- [42:54]
M.I.A.
Yeah, because I guess we're like the back garden of India, you know, And Gandhi was such a big thing.
- [43:00]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [43:01]
M.I.A.
And he's like, we're free and India's free. And so Sri Lanka was just like, whoa, you know, but we're a tiny island. And actually, I think Sri Lanka enjoyed having the British there.
- [43:13]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [43:14]
Interviewer
What you're describing, it sounds like life was better when Britain was there.
- [43:18]
M.I.A.
It kind of was, yeah. Because when I hear my uncles talk about it, they'd be like, oh, it was so much better in the 60s. And also, like, Sri Lanka was set to become like, the Singapore, you know, of Southeast Asia. And we had so much going just before the war started. But the war starts in a very unpredictable way with a single thing. And so my dad, he really was kind of thrown into it, and he had this knowledge that he'd learned in Russia, you know, so he actually became super useful because he had more knowledge. And they always invited him to write up the manifesto and do this and do that. And so my dad, his first approach was to write a book, and it was called Lankar Rani. And Rani means Queen and Lanka, you know, Sri Lanka. And it was a boat. And it was the exodus story of Tamils leaving Colombo in this exodus mission to go back to their homeland in the north, because the government was, like, getting rid of all the Tamils from the south. So on this boat ride, you had all of these characters that represented all of the political ideologies of the time. Discussing what the dream was, you know, what utopia looked like.
- [44:53]
Interviewer
And would you say it was a philosophical book? Is that.
- [44:56]
M.I.A.
I think so. But then it became accidentally became the manifesto for the revolution because so many other revolutionaries at the time used that book as a thing.
- [45:08]
Interviewer
It was written metaphorically, it was written as a story. It wasn't written as now go do this.
- [45:13]
M.I.A.
No, it was a philosophical conversation. Same way, you know, Bhagavad Gita. It's a conversation kind of thing. So like it was just different ideologies talking. Cause my dad also knew about the political situations around the world. So he could talk about what someone like Castro would do to what someone like the Russian government would do, you know. So he just put all of them in one boat and made them have a chat. And a lot of people drew from that and was like, okay, this is what we would do. And then from that emerged four groups that wanted to fight. And the groups were kind of like, it's almost like represented a social run and the tigers represented the common poor people. And they were big in numbers. And then my dad had the elite, you know, which was the intellectuals. And they were smaller in number but then much more like knowledgeable. So then the next 20 years became a battle between these four against the government and then these four against each other. And that's the backdrop to the record. And I'd lived there for 10 years until I was 10 during this time. Yeah, so the war when I was born, within six months my dad decided to go and join the revolution. So I was six months old and we were on the farm and there was loads of training and this and that.
- [46:55]
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- [48:23]
Interviewer
What do you remember about childhood?
- [48:27]
M.I.A.
Childhood was not easy because pretty soon, like, my mum was like, what is this? I didn't sign up for this. She packed up and took the kids and left. And we lived in Jaffna Town. The farm was, like, in the middle of nowhere. So she moved us to a town and put us in with her family and we kind of grew up. She had 13 brothers and sisters. It was the whole town, you know.
- [48:57]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [48:57]
Interviewer
And so the whole town was your family?
- [49:00]
M.I.A.
The whole town was my family, yeah.
- [49:02]
Interviewer
So that was fun living in that town. Were you aware of the war going on around you or.
- [49:06]
M.I.A.
No, we were outcasts, you know.
- [49:08]
Interviewer
What is the experience of being an outcast?
- [49:11]
M.I.A.
So they always say, oh, these kids. You know, first of all, we didn't have a dad. And that was like a unheard of thing in the 70s in Sri Lanka. Like, the only time you didn't have a dad is if he was dead. And then my mom raised us thinking my dad was my uncle. So sometimes when we saw him, we'd only see him like once a year or something.
- [49:33]
Interviewer
Did you know he was your dad or.
- [49:34]
M.I.A.
No, no, we didn't know.
- [49:36]
Interviewer
Oh, I didn't know. This, this is interesting. Yeah, so because it was dangerous if he was your dad.
- [49:42]
M.I.A.
Yeah, because the army would come to our village and arrest everyone and then they would get us because everyone knew we were the kids. We didn't know, but they knew. And they would single my mom out and the kids and, you know, they would put us on their lap and be like, oh, tell me what your daddy got you. And they would trick us. And my mum always was like, you don't have a dad. If somebody says, where's your dad? You just point to the sky, you know, it was just so that we didn't answer the army by saying, oh, my dad bought us, you know, an ice cream or something.
- [50:16]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [50:17]
M.I.A.
But we would be like, what does dad mean? You know, because we genuinely didn't know. And also the village or the town would already be like, these kids don't have a dad. So we were like, oh, we just don't have him. We kind of didn't know where he was. So when they say, where is he? We'd say, we don't know. I think he's like, in the sky, you know? And then. So, yeah, it's in the documentary where I do say to my dad, when I do first see him, I go, we didn't know you were our dad. And I was, like, 19.
- [50:49]
Interviewer
When did you go to London?
- [50:51]
M.I.A.
I was 10.
- [50:52]
Interviewer
How different was that experience?
- [50:54]
M.I.A.
Oh, yeah, it was huge. But I was really into music in Sri Lanka.
- [51:01]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [51:02]
M.I.A.
And I was artistic, even in school. And I remember during the war, I said to my mom, I wanted to learn singing. And the war got so bad. During the time, I asked that the lady who did the singing lessons, she also, like, made bread. My mum was like, you can choose singing lessons or you could choose bread. Like, you get one choice. And right now the family needs bread. We don't need a singer, you know? And so I just never took up singing. But I was growing up and we had television. So my fashion designer uncle from England, he bought the entire town one tv. Okay. And so he put it in our house. So once a month, the entire neighborhood would gather, like, a hundred people in our living room. And everyone was squash. And he bought one fridge for the whole neighborhood. And we had one tv. And we would collect, like, a dollar each each day. And when we got, like, $30 or something together, the town would go and rent a vcr, you know? And then we would hire Tamil movies and watch them. But when we watched them, we had to, because we only had it for 24 hours, the VCR. We would hire 10 movies and watch them all in one go.
- [52:32]
Interviewer/Commentator
I see.
- [52:32]
M.I.A.
So people in the street would make ice cubes in the freezer. Cause it was the first time they'd seen a freezer.
- [52:40]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [52:40]
M.I.A.
And we would use the ice cubes to put on our face to stay awake.
- [52:45]
Interviewer
Cause it was hot. Or just.
- [52:46]
M.I.A.
No, just stay awake so we can watch all of them right before we're able to hand it in. So consuming entertainment was like, this whole process. Right.
- [52:57]
Interviewer
And your house was the local cinema.
- [52:59]
M.I.A.
It was. And before the war, my grandpa actually owned a cinema. Yeah. My mom's dad. So the movie thing was a big deal, you know? And I'd watch these movies, and the only songs we had available was the movie songs. So there was no music industry in India. There's none whatsoever. There's none in Sri Lanka.
- [53:20]
Interviewer
So soundtrack songs.
- [53:21]
M.I.A.
Yeah. So that is all you had to feed you for the whole year is whatever movie that came out. And so your input and the way you took it in and memorized it was so intense because that's the only chance you had, you know? So I would be, like, so religiously locked in. And the impact these songs had on me was, like, huge because of that reason. It was, like, so scarce. And also, we didn't move around the city and go and hang out in a mall. There was no such thing. It was a war zone and people were getting shot all the time. So you didn't go out of the zone and people didn't enjoy themselves. Like, you didn't have music on all the time, or like you didn't dress up because you didn't want to attract attention. And it was dangerous for the girls, dangerous for the boys. It was dangerous for everyone. So everyone just was like, tried to be muted. So when you, like, huddled together in this room to consume this stuff, it was just, like, transporting you into this other world. So, yeah, I wanted to learn music, and my mom was like, no. And, you know, and that's also a sign of the times when your music teacher has to also make bread on the side a To get money, but also just because the food became quite an issue. I think coming to England, it was the first time I'd sort of seen music again. And it was just like a crash course in, like, absorbing everything very quickly.
- [55:03]
Interviewer
Did you still feel that need to be muted or did you feel like now you could be free?
- [55:10]
M.I.A.
It was totally different. Like, when I came to England, we had to live in a shared accommodation with some other families. So it was like 15 people in a house.
- [55:20]
Interviewer
All Sri Lankan.
- [55:21]
M.I.A.
Yeah. So it was like all the family members that were in danger in the war zone had sort of left. And my fashion designer uncle had saved all these people, but he was just like, now you gotta do your own thing, you know? So we were all living in this one house, and it belonged to my little cousin who was, like, learning how to play the guitar at the time. And we were like, what's that? And never seen a guitar before. And he was super white, you know, he was like, born and bred in England. He didn't speak Tamil, and he's playing the guitar and his favorite thing were Beatles songs. We were like, who is this kid? And so everything we learned was through him and what he was into so fast.
- [56:08]
Interviewer
He was your age as well.
- [56:09]
M.I.A.
He was a couple of years older than me, but he found us fascinating. But we had no way to communicate because we didn't know English.
- [56:16]
Interviewer/Commentator
I see.
- [56:17]
M.I.A.
And he didn't know Tamil, so he would just sing Beatles songs to us and. And we were, like, learning English through his songs. So he had, like, 10 records. I think when Whitney Houston, Saving All My Love came out. So that's when we arrived. So that was the opening to the soundtrack of my life in London, was that record. Then he had all the Beatles Records. He had Simon and the Garfunkel and then Evita. So that's what I had.
- [56:53]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [56:54]
M.I.A.
And I had to learn those really intensely and learn English through these records.
- [56:58]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [56:59]
Interviewer
Fantastic.
- [57:00]
M.I.A.
Then they put us in school after three, four months. So all of my vocabulary came from libel songs. And one day we were in assembly and they asked a question. I didn't understand it, but everyone put their hands up. Yeah. And it was like 500 kids in a school hall. And I put mine up too, because I was like, I guess you're supposed to pick up.
- [57:24]
Interviewer
This is what you're supposed to do.
- [57:26]
M.I.A.
And they picked me, right? And it was basically a talent contest for them to choose. It was like the Amnesty International talent contest. And then the winner was going to, like, win something. I don't know. But they were like, yeah, come to the stage. And I was just like, oh, my God. Like, this is not how it's supposed to go. And I didn't understand. It might even been like the first week of school. So it's, like, so daunting. And I got on stage, and then they gave me a mic, and I was like, 10, didn't know English. And then I couldn't think of a singer song, and I didn't know English. So I sang a Vita Don't Cry For Me, Argentina.
- [58:15]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [58:16]
M.I.A.
And not even in English, but just in syllables that I'd heard. And this is, I think, was like, the craziest thing. It was very traumatic. But so then they gave me a T shirt, and I'd won an Amnesty International T shirt. And that moment was kind of interesting because my choir teacher came out, or music teacher, and I hadn't met her at the school yet. And she came out, and as I got off the stage and got this T shirt, she just took me straight into choir lesson. So I didn't even sit in the rest of the assembly. And they took me straight into the choir room with like, 30 other kids doing choir. And then we'd come out of lessons and do choir lessons whenever she needed us kind of thing. So she put me in the choir team. And that was kind of weird. Cause I was like, learning all these, like, Jesus songs. But it's. Cause she obviously felt really sorry for me. And she was like, okay, this kid really wants to sing but doesn't know English and stuff. It's weird thinking back, thinking, wow, the first school I went to, the first term I was in a choir team. And so half of the lessons I didn't really do. And then my drama teacher Came and because I was good at painting, she took me out of classes for the rest of the day to paint, like, drama sets and things. So between music and painting, that's kind of all I was doing, you know, which is great.
- [59:52]
Interviewer
They were supporting your.
- [59:54]
M.I.A.
Yeah, it's.
- [59:54]
Interviewer
You're interested in the arts. You got lucky.
- [59:57]
M.I.A.
I got lucky because I didn't have to speak a lot.
- [59:59]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [60:00]
M.I.A.
You know, so I was, like, painting sets and then doing my choir singing. And then again, I was like, oh, I wish I'd gone to singing lessons in Sri Lanka during the war, or even knew how to sing in English. So I thought, yeah, I'm definitely a painter. That's like. That's what I am, you know, I'm definitely an artist, but not a musician. And I think from then on, that was my thing. Yeah, until Run DMC put out tricky. So my school was turning 10 years old, and then they needed a event to celebrate that. And they were, like, choosing people in each class to put together an event. And there was three girls that they chose, which was me and a Korean girl and a Pakistani girl. And they were like, you guys are gonna do, like, a dance routine. And we chose Tricky as our song. And so we did a little dance routine on this 10th anniversary, and we killed it. We won the first prize. And then we represented the school in the borough, and then we got to represent the borough in the whole of England. And they kept sending us around the country to do this dance routine. And it sort of changed my life because even though I didn't know how to speak English, it made me really famous overnight in the school. And then everyone was like, teach me this move. Teach me that move. So we got to take this dance routine to, like, I don't know, we had to go to Liverpool or somewhere and do this huge contest. Yeah. We won, like, a week doing activities and all of this sort of stuff. And I remember thinking, well, dancing doesn't need English.
- [62:04]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [62:05]
M.I.A.
You just need rhythm.
- [62:06]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [62:06]
M.I.A.
You know, and, like, that's cool. So it changed my, like, Persona at school after that. And I became known as, like, the dancer girl. So that was always part of my personality. And then it just kind of, like, as a teenager. That's also, like, why I think that was really important to me, you know, like, hip hop was so much about that.
- [62:33]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [62:33]
M.I.A.
And we'd stay up and record, like, everything. And then after that, we switched it up to the Cookie Crew, which was, like, a local girl rap group from Clapham. So we were like, okay, let's Represent. But Yeah, definitely run. DMC's tricky was like the catalyst to like my like, presence at school. And that's what I was saying. Like from that then I started getting more into like harder hip hop, you know, like, we never did anything mainstream, but it was kind of an interesting time because the late 80s was also the golden era of Jamaican dancehall music, you know, and then we had our own thing, which is that jungle being born out of those two things coming together. So it was just like the best time in London for music as a teenager. Yeah, it was amazing.
- [63:31]
Interviewer
Was it more hanging out with your friends, listening to music, or were you going to clubs yet?
- [63:36]
M.I.A.
I was starting to go to clubs.
- [63:38]
Interviewer
And what was the club scene like?
- [63:41]
M.I.A.
Well, the Jamaican scene was everywhere. It kind of like transcended a space. You know, you could go to the park and that, you'd have a sound system and then there'd be a warehouse or that's like people would have them in pubs or clubs or, you know, house parties. It was kind of everywhere. The raves obviously happened in proper rave environments. And then with hip hop, yes, you could go to a club, but the club would go through the genres. So like every club you went to in London at the time, they would do like a 30 minute set that was dancehall 30, that's hip hop, bit of R and B, you know, and then they close it off with a bit of soul and then everyone leaves the club. And it was like the same kind of template. It's kind of amazing to have your teenage years with so much, you know, music. But that is the thing, I think, coming from the war and everything. And also Tamil music is very beat and drum heavy. So it was just kind of like a natural progression to be like, oh, yeah, the dancehall thing. And hip hop connects with the rhythmic aspect of what, you know, is Tamil.
- [65:02]
Interviewer
Music, folk music or pop music.
- [65:07]
M.I.A.
So, you know, like you have Hindi songs that were from Bollywood and they were a lot more like dreamy and much more like the Hindustani ragas and stuff. It was much more about the singing and everything. But Tamil music in the south is very much to do with the rhythm. So we have that, you know, the counting, hitting the stick and doing Bharadhanatyam dancing. So the Bharadhanatyam, the original classic dancing. And the music we have is called the Karnatic music. And it's all based on maths. And even our dancing is hitting your heel into the ground, making a beat.
- [66:03]
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- [67:31]
Interviewer
Can you play me a classic piece of demo music?
- [67:35]
M.I.A.
Yeah. So this is a movie that came out in 1980 or something, right? That explains this music. Nam, it's more religious. But this is also in Telangu, which is a different dialect to Tamil, but it's still in Tamil Nadu.
- [68:55]
Interviewer
Is most of the music religious or spiritual?
- [68:58]
M.I.A.
This one is a bit religious because this, this movie is about a guru and it's about him trying to teach classical music. But the kids are like disrespectful and not disrespectful, but he's trying to like pass on the knowledge and so. And then he. So this movie is about the teaching of the music. So I loved this movie when it first came out because I was like, whoa. It gave me so much knowledge, like someone learning how to sing and stuff. I would learn about music from this film. So that's why this was a very important movie for me. But yeah, I just always noticed that there was a difference in the sound of like the toms and the bass, like kick drum and these kind of things in Tamil music as opposed to Hindi music. So I just knew that there was another drum. And so when I made Kala, that was my first trip back to India. And to find what that is.
- [70:19]
Interviewer
Did you go back to Sri Lanka?
- [70:20]
M.I.A.
I went back to Sri Lanka in 2001, before 9 11.
- [70:26]
Interviewer
And what was the feeling there compared to your childhood experience?
- [70:31]
M.I.A.
Well, you know, I just came out of art school. So when I went back, everyone's like, what's happening? And really I had the place changed. First of all, I didn't get up to the north to where I came from. They wouldn't allow me. But I was kind of brave. So I was like, no, I'm going to go, you know. But when I'd arrived, this crazy event had happened where this teacher was attacked in broad daylight at the roundabout in like Times Square equivalent in the capital by like all these army soldiers. And there was a massive riot and protests in the street for women's rights because all the army soldiers had got acquitted. So we were having the Rodney King equivalent in Colombo at the time to do with this female teacher that had been raped in broad daylight. And I didn't know this, but we landed and my mom was like, you're not going out. You know, she locked the door and she locked me in the house. So then I was there. She knew that it was gonna influence me quite a lot. And I was like, I need to go to this protest, like, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. She really tried to control that, but I was like, I'm gonna do something about it, you know. And then I would find basically everyone in the street in all the neighborhood and everything in the capital. They were all some sort of family that had been affected, you know, like, everyone had a story. So I was like, wow, I don't even have to go all the way to the north. Even if I look on this street, there's enough people that are like, my son's in jail, my sister was killed, my husband's missing, my duh. Every single door I knocked on.
- [72:33]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [72:34]
M.I.A.
And then I was like, wow, this is crazy. That's the documentary I tried to make, you know, but I wanted the shots. So I was, I'm going to go to the tiger territory, I'm going to get into their camp and I'm going to film, like what they're doing because I was curious about what 20 something year old girl was like in the movement as opposed to the way I was living.
- [73:01]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yes.
- [73:02]
M.I.A.
In art school.
- [73:03]
Interviewer
And it could have been your life.
- [73:05]
M.I.A.
Yeah. So my cousin who was my age, he went missing. So that's where Mia comes from. So they wrote and said, he's been found. And then they're like, no, no, no, he's dead. And then they were like, no, no, he's found, but he's in a vegetative state and doesn't remember who he is. And there were so many mixed stories. So I was like, okay, I'm gonna make a documentary. It's called Mia. I'm gonna go to Sri Lanka, I'm gonna find him and I'm gonna figure out everything else as well in the meantime, you know. And so when I got there, it was just so much bureaucracy, you know. Like, you had to have a visa to go down the street to buy a pint of milk and if you're a Tamil, and you had to, like, get the thing and get that and get the stamp report at the police station. Have the police come and check your bag before you can leave. Like, it was all crazy stuff that you just could not live. And everybody was just so, like, muted. And I remember having an Eminem CD and I was in the war zone and I'm like, listen to this, you know, like, it'll make you feel something.
- [74:18]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [74:18]
M.I.A.
And people like, no, no, no, no, don't put it on, don't put it on.
- [74:21]
Interviewer
Everybody's in fear.
- [74:22]
M.I.A.
Yes. I took out, like, a nail polish and I was like, do you want this? And they were like, no, no, no, no. Take it away from me because it will look like I'm making an effort and I'm attracting attention. And I was like, wow, this is crazy. And then I went to join the Tigers and I was like, I want to cross over, like, into the territory. And I think this is when. I dunno, when Mary Colvin, she was a journalist that went. And she got shot in the eye. And I'm like, you know, I want to be a journalist. I want to. I need to go and interview them or film it or something. And they were just like, no, you can't go. And then, just as I want to.
- [75:06]
Interviewer
Go to learn more, tell me what you were thinking.
- [75:10]
M.I.A.
I felt really guilty that I was having this life in England and all the girls that I'd gone to school with.
- [75:18]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [75:19]
M.I.A.
Were experiencing a totally different fate.
- [75:22]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [75:22]
Interviewer
So somehow you escaped.
- [75:24]
M.I.A.
Yeah.
- [75:25]
Interviewer
You felt guilty that why were you the one that got out? Is that right?
- [75:31]
M.I.A.
It was a bit like, why was I the one to get out? But it was also like, I don't want to just forget that they're there. So I went back and I was like, what can I do? But everyone's just like, just don't do anything. Just leave, you know, and be grateful.
- [75:51]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [75:53]
Interviewer
Also, by going back, you were drawing attention to them, which they probably didn't want.
- [75:56]
M.I.A.
So they were like, wait, you're walking around here with a puma T shirt on and that was banned.
- [76:02]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [76:03]
M.I.A.
And then you had, like, some camo, like, cool shit that you got from, like, whatever, you know, Notting Hill Market.
- [76:10]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [76:11]
M.I.A.
And you have no idea how this impacts us, you know? And then that bit of dyed hair of yours, like, it looks like you're a Tamil tiger girl that's been in the jungle in the sun and their hair grows brown because they have no choice. They've been like, in the jungle in the sun, and they got brown hair. And you just come in here saying it's fashion because Kate Moss is. Got it. And you're just gonna get us killed. You know?
- [76:34]
Interviewer
That's interesting.
- [76:35]
M.I.A.
Yeah.
- [76:36]
Interviewer
And you have no way of knowing that.
- [76:37]
M.I.A.
No, no. So it's all stuff you're learning because you get stopped at the checkpoint and then just like, what's up with your brown hair? And you're like, what? Like, have you not seen Vogue? You know, and they're just like. And so my mom was just like, you're a light bulb liability. You're staying indoors. And I'm locking the door and throwing away the key. You know, So I had to kind of, like, learn about everything. And then by the end, we were like, okay, let's go back to London. And they blew up the airport. The government parked the warplanes in the international airport, and the Tigers did the suicide mission and blew up all the warplanes. So the airport shut down and I couldn't leave. And so I was there for another month.
- [77:25]
Interviewer
That's unbelievable.
- [77:27]
M.I.A.
Yeah. And I was kind of like, well, fair enough. Because the news I'd got the whole time I was there was that the reason why I couldn't see my childhood house is because they were deploying these fighter planes and bombing the north at the time. So I got to know the fighter planes really well and know about them really well. Cause I was learning about what was happening and why I couldn't go there. You know, Like, I knew how many they bought, what year they were made, like, how much it cost the government, like, you know, all of that. So when they blew it up, I was like, well, they did spend a long time saying, please don't do that. Cause you're bombing schools and hospitals and civilian areas, and it's a no fly zone. And they didn't listen. And this is like cause and effect in a war, you're as bad as the monster you're fighting. I understood that the reason why the TAMA Tigers were called ruthless is because the government was ruthless. Your gauge and the range of ruthless you are, it's dependent on what you're fighting.
- [78:34]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [78:35]
M.I.A.
And you can't call one side ruthless without knowing why they're like that. So then I was watching the news and on the BBC, they're like, oh, the Tigers bombed civilian planes. And here's all these, like, crying tourists running. And I was like, but that's Just not true. Because I was there.
- [78:54]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [78:55]
M.I.A.
And it was like three in the morning and nobody was at the airport. And they were just like, running these, like, weird clips, you know, and it's a propaganda thing. And I was like, wow, that's mad. You know. So my London friends would call me and be like, we saw this, we saw that. And I'd be like, but that didn't happen. I don't know just how I opened my eyes. That was my awakening moment to how the world runs. And I was like, okay, I can't join the tigers. Either I could be a journalist or, you know, I need to make this documentary and figure out what to do because I feel really bad for all my cousins and people that are living like this. You know, this is their youth. And, yeah, I came back and, you know, and at that age, I knew that taking drugs wasn't an option. But that was the scene in London, you know, when I got into music, I was like, I don't have the luxury of all of that, you know. Like, you still have, like a seriousness.
- [80:08]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [80:09]
M.I.A.
And it's not for fun. It is like journalism.
- [80:14]
Interviewer
Would you say you're primarily an activist and that it comes out through different forms of art?
- [80:21]
M.I.A.
Not really. Because I love music and all aspects of music.
- [80:26]
Interviewer
And you like making different kinds of music as well.
- [80:28]
M.I.A.
I do. And I like.
- [80:29]
Interviewer
It's not only documentary replacement music.
- [80:33]
M.I.A.
It's not. And I like the thing that music taps you into. Yeah. And that's so bossed. But I felt like I had a role in that precise moment to do that.
- [80:51]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yes.
- [80:53]
M.I.A.
Because it wasn't a selfish drive. It's not like I want to be a musician. It was like, there's something urgent, this thing is working and I'm not forcing it, you know. And I was kind of coming out of St. Martin's I was creative and doing everything, but the music thing was my last on the list, you know.
- [81:13]
Interviewer
How did you get into St. Martin's.
- [81:15]
M.I.A.
I just blagged it.
- [81:16]
Interviewer
Tell me how.
- [81:18]
M.I.A.
So I started coming to LA a lot because the music drew me here. So I was learning before St. Martin's so before St. Martin's I was doing GCSEs and someone is. When they came up with that theory. If you listen to music, you can revise more. That was an invented theory in the 90s. And I was like, amazing. So I'd listen to, like, hip hop or R and B while I was doing homework. And what I realized is that by the end of the exams, I was so Versed on the songs and not really what was in the books.
- [81:56]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [81:57]
M.I.A.
And so the day my results came out, I just got on a plane and I'm like, I want to go and meet the people who made this thing, you know, I want to go where they are. So I got a plane ticket to Los Angeles. My thing was that I'm going to meet Snoop Dogg or, you know.
- [82:18]
Interviewer
How old were you at the time?
- [82:20]
M.I.A.
Oh, I must have been, like, 17.
- [82:23]
Interviewer
Do you have other friends who had come to Los Angeles?
- [82:25]
M.I.A.
Yeah, I had a cousin who was my age.
- [82:27]
Interviewer
I see.
- [82:28]
M.I.A.
And she was already here. I hadn't seen her since the war in Sri Lanka. So she left and came to California and I left and went to London at the same time, and then we hadn't seen each other.
- [82:39]
Interviewer
So when you came to California, did you see her?
- [82:42]
M.I.A.
Mm. She picked me up at the airport and then we were in all the clubs meeting everyone.
- [82:48]
Interviewer
Good experience?
- [82:50]
M.I.A.
Yeah, I mean, I loved it. It was the best. We were out all the time, met all the rappers. I got to see the Fugees at the time when they were, like, coming up great. Met pretty much all the rappers. My 21st birthday party, I went to Nas's album launch. So I was coming here all the time. So every time when I came here, I'd miss my chance to go to the uni I wanted because I would just miss the application process, you know, didn't care. So I went back and I had to go to a uni, otherwise my mum was going to kill me. So I was standing at the bus stop one day and it was outside St. Martin's and I'm like, I'm going to go here. And I just.
- [83:43]
Interviewer
Was it a hard school to get into?
- [83:45]
M.I.A.
Normally, yeah, the hardest. But I just made a decision. That's where I'm gonna go. And then I just called up the art department every day, exactly at the same time, like, 1:37, you know, and I was like, hey, I'm looking for the head of the art department. And I found him and then just called him every day, and he's like, every time I try to bite into my sandwich, I get this annoying phone call, like, what are you doing? And I was just like, please just give me a chance. I just need 10 minutes to come and, like, convince you. I need to study film at this school. It was the head of fine art, and he was like, fine, I'll give you 10 minutes, and you can bring your work and bring your portfolio. And then so the next day, I walked in. And I had nothing. Cause I didn't do the course that you're supposed to do before you get in.
- [84:45]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [84:46]
M.I.A.
And I had terrible grades, and I didn't have, like, work experience and stuff. And he kind of spat his sandwich out, and he started laughing. He's like, are you joking? Do you know how many people, like, suffer to get into this course? Like, we have 16,000 applicants for 20 spaces, and you can just waltz in here with nothing. Right? And I was like, I just know I'm gonna make the best movie out of all the other people you've let in.
- [85:18]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [85:18]
M.I.A.
I also can't comprehend that one human being has the power to say yes or no, to change the direction of a human being's life. And I was like, on paper, the person I am is. I could either be a drug dealer or a prostitute, or work at Tesco's, or be on the door and have loads of kids claiming benefit. This is my future. So I'm gonna get on that bus outside this college, go to King's Cross, which was, like, the notorious area for crackheads and prostitution. And I was like, I'm gonna go and do that. And if I become the craziest criminal or who could get arrested and go to jail, my film is still gonna be a bad film. And then he was like, that's emotional blackmail, you know? And I was like, but it is true. Like, you have the power to change somebody's life right now. He was like, okay, just go home. And then when I went home, he called, like, 20 minutes later. And then he said, I had a chat with the art department, and you're really lucky. One person dropped out because they got sick and can't come anymore. And we're gonna give this place for you.
- [86:39]
Interviewer
Amazing.
- [86:40]
M.I.A.
It was so weird. And I was just like, whoa. And then, you know, he.
- [86:46]
Interviewer
You willed it to happen.
- [86:48]
M.I.A.
I did. And he said to me when he left. Cause after that, he retired. He said, you know, we gave it to you because we decided that you got Hook Spa. And I had to go and look up what that meant. You know, there was no Google at the time. And basically he said, you know, at the end of the day, everybody who came into this art school followed the rules to get in. Yeah, but that's not who we're looking for. We want people who don't care about the rules. And so we believe you that you might actually do something, you know? And that's what he said.
- [87:22]
Interviewer
And how was the experience at school?
- [87:23]
M.I.A.
Yeah, it was amazing. I loved it. It was just no rules, you know, it wasn't practical. So it's not like going to ucla. It was very conceptual. So you'll sit there and talk about why Goddard or, you know, like, Derek Jarman filmed the blue screen.
- [87:40]
Interviewer
Real art education.
- [87:41]
M.I.A.
Yes. It was interesting. We learned about movements and artists and the concept of being an auteur, you know, and, like, being strong about where you're coming from. And I was kind of into technical stuff as well. Like, I wanted to learn those things, you know, material filmmaking and this and that. I wasn't so into the surreal things, but I think I found certain artists who push boundaries because they believed in something and sticking to that was very useful then when I became a musician, you know, because if your idea is not strong, you're just weak and you'll, you know, you will fall for anything. So I think that Those years at St. Martin's definitely strengthened, you know, like, don't come to the table unless you have a strong idea. Vibes.
- [88:41]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [88:41]
M.I.A.
And I knew that already. And it was the same for music. Like, I wouldn't enter the music territory if there was nothing new you're bringing to it. Like, it had to matter.
- [88:55]
Interviewer
Do you think of yourself as spiritual?
- [88:57]
M.I.A.
Oh, yeah. Everything is coded in my life. I just have the revelation in certain moments when I guess God decides you're ready to have that information, but everything is already what it is. And I'm just connecting dots and going, oh, my God. Oh, my God. Like, all the time. But everything is as is. And it is. And it's quite bizarre. Like, even going through being Christian now. Right. It doesn't make me any less the thing I was suddenly, I don't lose your life.
- [89:47]
Interviewer
Did you convert to Christianity?
- [89:49]
M.I.A.
I got baptized, yeah. I wouldn't call it a conversion, but I'd accepted being a Hindu before. But what I realized is that everything is always present. You know, it's not so cut and dry. Like now you're in this phase. It's just a different way of understanding and a different way of existing. And right now this makes the most sense in my life. And the Hindu phase was so chaotic, but I had the energy to deal with that and make sense of it also. Like, it's just a bit of myself I'd never paid attention to because, like I said, my father's family was Catholic and my mum's a Christian and my grandma, her mom was a Christian. But I never just.
- [90:40]
Interviewer
Was there an event or a moment that brought you back into this?
- [90:46]
M.I.A.
Yes. So I had a vision of Jesus Christ. And how long ago? It was like, 2:17.
- [90:56]
Interviewer
Can you describe it?
- [90:58]
M.I.A.
Yeah. So. So I met you after that. And when I met you, I was still in that transitional period. So I would still say I was 50. 50, and. Which is why the Martyr record was called M A T A. And it was a 5050 record. And it was a journey where I was coming out of the chaos and trying to come to this other place. But I couldn't fully describe what that place was. But I had the vision and I knew it was real. So this is another thing about the music industry. When people say, oh, talk about how terrible the music industry is or what happened, I can't, because for me, it was always a spiritual situation. But, you know, I always had this other bit where I was like, what is this? Of course, there's the political thing and there's the artistic thing. There's, like, the funny thing or there's, like, you messing with society and, like, making things happen. But there's always this, like, respect for some weird spiritual presence that I was like, there's something, but didn't know what. And then, you know, I had this saying, you're a citizen of the world, and your religion is to do good. And I was like, that's a great slogan. That is what I am. I'm gonna live by that, and that's gonna be my mantra. And so I didn't really think more about that. And then I made color under that spiritual idea that it's just like, everything goes. Then I made the Maya album, which was much more about Islamophobia. And it was my connection to Islam, even though I'm not Muslim. I was like, they're going through something like, what is this? You know?
- [92:52]
Interviewer
You related to their struggle?
- [92:54]
M.I.A.
Yes. I was like, you know, they need a voice. And even though they would reject me because I'm not a Muslim and I do everything wrong, like, I'm smoking weed or going out. I make club music and, you know, all of the stuff. But I sympathize and empathize with this group of people that's going through this thing. And that was the beginning where I was fighting for that thing so hard, even though I wasn't religious. And that was, like, the beginning where I started, like, feeling something weird, you know? And I started feeling, like, a presence of something. And I would start seeing things that I couldn't explain. But it was still kind of beautiful. And I was like, what is going on?
- [93:47]
Interviewer
Would you say it was channeling?
- [93:49]
M.I.A.
I don't know what it was but my album was called Maya, and that's like, the post war. So the Sri Lankan war came to an end the year I made that record. And I was extremely depressed. And I also made that in America. And I never knew about the Christian side of life or conspiracy theories or the dark side. And I remember signing Sleigh Bells, and they came around to my house and they graffitied a pentagram on my studio wall. And my other artist at the time, he was like, you know what that means? And I'm like, no. I just thought it's like rebellion and anarchy or whatever. It's kind of close, you know, I didn't know what it was. And he's like, no, that's like a symbol that represents, like, a portal, you know? And it's like spirits can come and go through this thing. And it's like. I was like, what is this? You know? And so when I look back at the Maya album, it sounds kind of confusing because the human part of me was going through, like, loss and tragedy. And then also birth of my son, which was like, the opposite.
- [95:16]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [95:16]
M.I.A.
And then the spiritual aspect, it's like you're still dealing with talking about a demographic of people and just all people who might be, like, controlled or some sort of, like, something, but I didn't know what. And it was more like. I guess it's just what I was channeling in California. Like, people in California needed to talk about privacy, you know, and tech, whereas it wasn't my thing. But that's just what I picked up on, and that's just what came out on the record. But Maya on a spiritual level means the same. It's illusion, and it's about deception and breaking through the lies. And all the artwork for it was tunnels. And I was just naturally describing it without really thinking about it. And all the artwork for all the songs was about going through this tunnel, going through this tunnel. And it's like. And then it dawned on me that Maya. Afterwards, it dawned on me that Maya's not my real name, and it was a fake name, and that I shouldn't have named that record Maya because it's not real. But then that is what that was describing, something that's not real. So I was like, oh, maybe it's really great that everyone hated it because they're supposed to resist the Maya. And I was like, that's perfect. And then, you know, everyone's like, you need to get out of music. You're really shit, because this is a really terrible record. And I was like, yeah, but you don't understand the big picture. It's actually perfect, you know, like how it made sense afterwards.
- [96:55]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [96:55]
M.I.A.
I don't know any of this while going through it, but having come out, you're just like, whoa, that's actually pretty on point. And then that is the only ones. I accepted that because I was like, I have to self therapy, so I can't traumatize everyone else just because I feel traumatized by the war coming to an end. That's not a good thing. But I can let go. And one of the ways I can let go is to remember that every Tamil who died is a Hindu and it's going to be born again. So it's fine. Just embrace Hinduism for them and just pray that their souls and spirits don't come back to Earth because they believe in reincarnation, that they don't come back and perpetuate the same trauma on the human race. And so I was like, oh, there must be a process that spirit goes through to clean itself before it comes back, I think. So I was like, oh, I'm gonna just focus on that for a few months, you know. So I went to India and I was like, I think it's really fascinating that you would die. Then something has to happen where you lose that memory or you learn from what you've experienced. Like, where is this? They go, and while I was there, we were doing like a photo shoot and some guy was like, what green do you want? You know, and we're like, it's the type of green. And I remember my mom always would say parrot green. So we went on Google and we put parrot green to give him a picture. And it popped up. My real name, Matangi, who was the Goddess of music. And we're like, oh, my God. You know, and her mantra was aim, which is MIA backwards. Yeah. And her Mudra was middle finger. And I'd just been kicked out of America for the middle finger.
- [99:05]
Interviewer
So explain. Kicked out of America.
- [99:07]
M.I.A.
Well, you know, I went on the Super Bowl.
- [99:09]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [99:10]
M.I.A.
And like the halftime show. Yes. And then I got sued for the middle finger. Cause I was like, we don't give a shit like that. So the NFL was suing me for 16 million and they were suing you? Yeah.
- [99:26]
Interviewer
This is a crazy story.
- [99:29]
M.I.A.
So I was doing the show with Madonna. That's also a funny thing. She's called Madonna. And my real name, M A T H a, it means Madonna too. It's Mary.
- [99:43]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [99:43]
M.I.A.
But I didn't even think of that until this year. Like, that's what? I mean, sometimes things are just there, but you just get shown things, like when it's right, you know? Anyway, so I did this thing with Madonna, and so on the show, you.
- [100:02]
Interviewer
Did a hand gesture.
- [100:03]
M.I.A.
I did a hand gesture. And I didn't really compute how big the super bowl was. I'd never watched it before in my life, and I'd never gone to an American football game or anything like that.
- [100:14]
Interviewer
Was it a preconceived thing or. It just happened in the moment.
- [100:17]
M.I.A.
It just kind of went with the lyrics.
- [100:20]
Interviewer
Do you remember what the lyrics were?
- [100:21]
M.I.A.
I didn't give a shit.
- [100:22]
Interviewer
Oh, okay.
- [100:24]
M.I.A.
Pretty punk.
- [100:24]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah. Yeah.
- [100:25]
M.I.A.
Didn't think anything of it.
- [100:26]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [100:27]
M.I.A.
And then it was just, like, the most explosive thing, and I was like, whoa, I did not see that coming. But then I found this deity that was called this, and her mudra was the middle finger, and her mantra was MIA backwards.
- [100:47]
Interviewer
Amazing.
- [100:48]
M.I.A.
And I was like. And she was versed in 64 Arts, which is called Kala, and that's my mom's name.
- [100:54]
Interviewer
So it all makes sense after.
- [100:56]
M.I.A.
It always makes sense after.
- [100:58]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [100:58]
M.I.A.
And you never know what you're gonna go through. And then you go through it, and then it tells you.
- [101:02]
Interviewer
Whatever happened with the NFL, they dropped the case.
- [101:06]
Interviewer/Commentator
Good.
- [101:06]
M.I.A.
Yeah.
- [101:08]
Interviewer
I'm shocked that they sued you, because.
- [101:10]
M.I.A.
I said, I will make a documentary about it.
- [101:13]
Interviewer
That's why they dropped it.
- [101:14]
M.I.A.
Yes.
- [101:15]
Interviewer
I see.
- [101:15]
M.I.A.
But the documentary thing is still useful.
- [101:18]
Interviewer
So threats have worked out well for you. It got you into school.
- [101:21]
M.I.A.
Yes.
- [101:22]
Interviewer
It got them to drop a lawsuit against you.
- [101:25]
M.I.A.
Yes. I'm very scary, you know, obviously.
- [101:30]
Interviewer
What would you say you're afraid of in the world?
- [101:34]
M.I.A.
Well, I think that after that being really comfortable and just. And then one day I had a vision of Jesus Christ and, you know, and I found out that Mitangi also was, like, the goddess of spoken word, which I thought was like rap music or something, you know, and poetry, but also truth and me supporting WikiLeaks and freedom of press and saying, connected to the Google, connected to the government. Because it's true. Even though I know it's detrimental to my career. I just had to say it because it was true. And like, that the vision of Jesus Christ, it was true. Like, I wasn't hallucinating. I wasn't.
- [102:16]
Interviewer
I think most artists are supportive of Julian Assange. No. Do you know any artists. I was gonna say, do you know.
- [102:22]
M.I.A.
Any artists who are not in 2010, 2011? It was kind of, like, still a bit taboo.
- [102:28]
Interviewer
I see.
- [102:29]
M.I.A.
But, you know, I made a WikiLeaks mixtape in 2010. I was kind of very public with it kind of thing. Anyway, so when I had the vision, even going back to someone like Julian Assange, she doesn't really believe in God or is very, like, logical person to be like, I had a vision of Jesus Christ was very annoying, you know. And I visit him in jail.
- [102:59]
Interviewer
Julian, not Jesus.
- [103:00]
M.I.A.
Julian. Yeah. I had to be like, I saw Jesus. And he's like, it doesn't exist.
- [103:05]
Interviewer
You know, you saw it.
- [103:07]
M.I.A.
So obviously I saw it. So I have to even him.
- [103:09]
Interviewer
I have more information than he does.
- [103:12]
M.I.A.
I understand. Like, I just know that everyone in my life is like, what are you talking about? You know, including my family. So I was like, you're a Christian. Yeah, it's interesting. Exactly. So I was like, yes. And they're like, why would it happen to you? You're a musician. Like, you don't go to church and. But I don't know why it happened to me. Then I was like, you're right. Like, why? And it is about speaking truth. And Jesus Christ is. That is what you can say about him is that he is about that. You know, he's about the truth. And there's no bells and whistles with it. It's not like Hinduism. It comes with, like, so much decoration or the Egyptian gods or, you know, Jesus is nothing.
- [104:03]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [104:03]
M.I.A.
And he's so boring in that sense, you know, like in a creative sense. But it's like, pretty amazing. And my journey in it has been I listen to this pastor who clarifies a lot of things, you know, so it's not just the stories of the past, but explains, like, the world we're in right now. And it just makes sense. You know, he says that you can have heaven on earth. And a lot of people find this a very, very controversial story statement. And I've already experienced all of the backlash around me for saying this. But his whole thing is Jesus died so we can inherit what he intended for us, and that there was a race between Jesus and Satan to implement the will that they wanted for the human race. But only one of them died, which means that's the world that we inherited. So Satan has to come back to earth and convince everyone it didn't happen and that we didn't inherit that and that everything is terrible and a lot of people get confused and they stay in their trauma and we stay in the conflict and we stay. And I'm not saying that world doesn't have conflict. The world always has conflict and creation, destruction, and God has Wrath and all of that. But at the same time, half of the trauma and despair, we can overcome it if we know that we've already inherited the will of Jesus Christ, not the will of Satan. And that is.
- [105:48]
Interviewer
That feels good.
- [105:50]
M.I.A.
It feels great to know that that means you can just have it. It's there, you know, and even understanding all the other spiritual things that I've been through already, it's like that whole Egyptian thing, the Egyptian religion is, like, really chaotic, but it's the same chaos as Hinduism. And you can see that that's why a monotheic, Abrahamic religion came after all of these crazy ones, because it's just like. Seems like a natural progression. But it's like, just as like the timeline goes from one religion to the other. I just see that we're living in this, like, yes, this was totally relevant 6,000 years ago, this was relevant 3,000 years ago. But around me right now, this is the one I'm tapping into. And it makes sense.
- [106:48]
Interviewer
And all the streams lead to the same ocean. It's all essentially a version of the same thing.
- [106:58]
M.I.A.
It's true. It's true.
- [107:00]
Interviewer
Tell me the principle behind clothing with metal in it.
- [107:06]
M.I.A.
Well, it's combination, so it is a yoga principle, because yogis would drink out of copper bottles and it's kind of like, you know, just grounding the water and it's antibacterial and it's like. It just makes it more neutral when you consume it. So when I was In India in 2015, somebody gave us a copper bottle and explained that, and I'd never heard of it before. And I was like, oh, that's really amazing. How do I fit stuff like this into my life? And I was always been curious. And then one day I went to visit Julian Assange at the embassy, when he was in the embassy, and I met a guy who had this fabric and he was making wallets. So I remembered that.
- [108:00]
Interviewer
What were the wallets for?
- [108:02]
M.I.A.
It was to kind of get you off grid.
- [108:04]
Interviewer
I see.
- [108:04]
M.I.A.
So he was a journalist, I think, and he was going to Afghanistan or something, and he was like, oh, journalists would really need this.
- [108:14]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [108:15]
M.I.A.
So that was my introduction to nickel. And then a friend of mine called Adam Harvey, he did an art piece where he made a burqa made out of this fabric. And it was in the New York Museum and I bought it and I was like, oh, this is really brilliant. And then he. I don't know what happened to him. He didn't really do anything with it. And that was like ages ago. Like eight, nine years ago or something. But I think the fabric was so expensive back then. It was such a novelty. His whole thing was about stealth mode and anti drone wear. So that was another thing. And so I'd always been interested in fabric with function is kind of amazing, but it's just not affordable. And people always said, oh, why don't you have a brand? And I was like, but I would need a brand that's like doing something.
- [109:10]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yes.
- [109:11]
M.I.A.
You know, like, why add to pollution unless there's a purpose? And then when I was away, I realized my son is also getting older. He's a teenager, he's always on the gadget. And, you know, I'm not going to get him away from California and make him live in a cave. It's not gonna happen. I've lost that war. You know, he's at school here in America. He uses the phone to order food convenience Ubers. He goes to the classroom. They use laptops now, not a, you know, slate, like when I was at school. So I was like, how do I get around this? So it was just like a combination of all these things. I was like, I want him to wear tracksuit bombs where he could put a laptop on his lap. And I'm still gonna have grandchildren.
- [110:07]
Interviewer
So the clothing protects you from radiation, emf, many man made negative impacting energies.
- [110:18]
M.I.A.
Yeah, because we're not gonna undo it. And the tech world is saying, it's fine. We can have that capacity to consume all of these extra frequencies. Right. Because they're saying we're already electrical beings. And I get that. So when Elon Musk says, you don't have to worry about emf, but at the same time, it's the scale of it.
- [110:40]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [110:41]
M.I.A.
So I went to India last year and a friend of mine was like, you should have a brand, you know, and she expected like crazy H and M Topshop, kind of like accessible, Indians can buy it brand. And I tried for a month to go around and look at factories, and it just didn't gel. Everything was difficult. And then I got to Indonesia and my cousin came and she said, oh, you know, six years ago you came and gave me a parcel to put in the garage. And she said, I'm moving out, so here's your package. And so six years ago, apparently I went and left this parcel. When I opened it up, it was this fabric, and I'd ordered it from China and just left it in her garage and forgot about it. And I was like, oh, that's the past. Me leaving something for the Future me. Sometimes that happens where I don't even remember.
- [111:41]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [111:43]
M.I.A.
And so that was it.
- [111:44]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [111:45]
Interviewer
And it came right at the right time.
- [111:46]
M.I.A.
Right at the right time. I took that fabric, just made something happen, and it just kind of like everything clicked into place.
- [111:55]
Interviewer
So how long ago did you start the breath?
- [111:58]
M.I.A.
We launched last June. But, you know, this is also, like, it goes hand in hand with my spiritual experience because I was doing this in between thing, you know, of like, how do I be this new me without losing the old me, you know? Or am I supposed to? I don't know. It's like, does Jesus save you because you were already doing the right thing, or did he save you to make you not do that anymore and do a different thing? Like, how confusing. And so then I found this pastor, and he was like, yeah, you're going to do this thing in 90 days, this business, and everything's going to, like, you know, click into place. And I don't know, the words were so powerful. I just like, yeah, that just makes the most amount of sense, you know? And before that, I was listening to a lot of podcasts and having, like, a social understanding of everything and really kind of becoming overwhelmed with what was happening after Covid and everything and thinking, like, what do you do to help people? And then he's like, it will reveal itself and it's gonna happen and it's gonna happen in 90 days. And then I was like, okay, all I have to do is just give it a chance, you know? And then with 90 days, we designed the logo, made the clothes, started the thing, made the website, launched the brand in 90 days.
- [113:33]
Interviewer
Amazing.
- [113:34]
M.I.A.
Yeah, it was pretty.
- [113:35]
Interviewer
Like, the only place the clothes can be bought now are on the website at the moment.
- [113:39]
M.I.A.
Yes. But obviously we're going to go into, like, phase two trying to get it out.
- [113:44]
Interviewer
It's brand new.
- [113:45]
M.I.A.
Yeah, it's a baby.
- [113:46]
Interviewer
How many different pieces do you make?
- [113:48]
M.I.A.
At the moment? We have about 35. That's a lot to 40 things. And people love it.
- [113:56]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [113:56]
M.I.A.
You know, a lot of people want kids clothes.
- [113:58]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [113:59]
Interviewer
It's completely different than what anyone else is doing.
- [114:02]
M.I.A.
It's so different. It's also very new. So people are like, what is this? Like, we don't even need this.
- [114:08]
Interviewer
And even if people don't care about the function of it, it feels very forward. It feels science fiction.
- [114:15]
M.I.A.
It is. It's moving the dial on fashion. It's very difficult to express this in such a short time because we are a small time scale. But the function is not even just Singular function. It does have anti tech, anti surveillance function that all our bags get you off grid and then it has this other antibacterial blah blah blah, and protects you against EMFs and protects unborn fetuses and stops all the rest of it. While we are in the most exponential growth tech period of our time in human history. You know, where even in this government where they're saying hey, 500 billion is going to go into AI and the tech industry, not the climate industry, not health care, not education, into tech. So imagine how much more we are going to be relying on that, you know, because everyone has to make that $500 million.
- [115:25]
Interviewer
And interestingly, it's high tech clothing totally.
- [115:29]
M.I.A.
It's understanding where we are, what time we're in and going, okay, we're going to provide a solution. It's not a battle. Even though like you make armor and when you put armor on you go into battle. But the battle here is information is to bring people knowledge, you know, because people die from lack of knowledge and lack of information. And if tech invades our life to bring us information and that's their whole thing, it's like this is about information and we're living in information age, then it's important that people are informed about the ways to protect their bodies and choosing when, how to be in this, you know, technique.
- [116:22]
Interviewer
You wear the clothing every day?
- [116:24]
M.I.A.
I do actually, yeah.
- [116:26]
Interviewer
And how has the experience been since you've been wearing it?
- [116:28]
M.I.A.
Like when I sleep in it, it's amazing.
- [116:30]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [116:30]
M.I.A.
You know, like I think something must be happening. And also to test the clothes, I moved into a smart home. Like I'm very anti smart homes but the place I've rented everything is so technological and so I, when I wear it in bed, especially now we're in LA after the fires, they're going to be building smart homes and smart cities. To me it's like, you know, it's a second skin to be in an environment like that. Like I need it, you know.
- [117:05]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yeah.
- [117:06]
Interviewer
We also don't know with any new technology we don't know the long term effects. At one point in time, asbestos was this new scientific discovery that was cheap insulation that was gonna keep the world warm and turned out to be not so healthy.
- [117:23]
M.I.A.
Yeah. And we have technology like all around us. Like it's in our pocket, then it's in the sky with the satellite. And I don't even think like this is evil. I don't even think like that, you know, I think everything has a balance, you know, and so I do think that some of the technology reveals God and brings us closer and has a positive impact, but I do think there's people that will abuse it, you know, and that we've seen that we're living in that time where you're seeing this and it's like, you can't really live in ignorance and pretend it's not happening. And I don't know, sometimes I like wearing other clothes, but. And colors. But it's not like Omni can't occupy that space either. So. Pretty revolutionary for keeping humanity going.
- [118:24]
Interviewer/Commentator
Yes.
- [118:25]
M.I.A.
You know, like, that's the aim here, is that as much as people believe that this is the end of the world and we're in a dire situation, I think it's possible to have heaven on earth and that humanity can survive. Tetragrammation Tetragrammaton Tetragrammaton is a podcast. Tetragrammaton is a website. Tetragrammaton is a whole world of knowledge.
- [119:23]
Narrator/Host
What may fall within the sphere of tetragrammata? Counterculture Tetragrammatin Sacred geometry Tetragrammatin the avant garde Tetragrammatin Generative art Tetragrammatin the tarot Tetragrammatin out of print music Tetragrammatin Biodynamics Tetragrammatin Graphic design Tetragrammatin Mythology and magic Tetragrammatin Obscure film Tetragrammatum beach culture Tetra Tetragrammatin Esoteric lectures Tetragrammatin off the grid living Tetragrammatin Alt spirituality Tetragrammatin the canon of fine objects Tetragrammatin Muscle cars Tetragrammatin Ancient wisdom for a new age. Upon entering, experience the artwork of the day. Take a breath and see where you are drawn.