Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin
Guest: M.I.A.
Date: October 8, 2025
Episode Overview
In this illuminating episode, Rick Rubin sits down with M.I.A. for an expansive, deeply personal conversation spanning her journey from war-torn Sri Lanka to becoming a global music and cultural icon. Through anecdotes, reflections, and candid storytelling, M.I.A. traces her unlikely path into music, her artistic philosophies, the interweaving of politics and personal experience, and her growing spiritual life. The episode is rich with insights on creativity, activism, identity, and the importance of remaining true to one’s own voice.
Key Themes and Discussion Points
1. Early Artistic Pursuits: Painting and Film Over Music
[00:24 – 05:02]
- M.I.A. describes her youth as focused on painting and film. Yet music, initially just a passion, kept drawing her closer to people:
"I'd never wanted to be a musician... all of my life, like, everyone I had around was met through this musical thing, but I never wanted to be a musician." – M.I.A. [01:15]
- She recounts her Channel 4 documentary on the Sri Lankan civil war falling through after the commissioning producer hit on her, prompting her to turn documentary stills into paintings, which rapidly gained attention.
2. The Bequia Epiphany & Creating “Galang”
[05:02 – 08:38]
- A pivotal trip to Bequia, St. Vincent, with a sick friend sets her on an unexpected path:
“We went to a little island... musically it was amazing because everyone had sound systems everywhere in the street and it played music all the time... I was just like sleeping to bass lines, waking up to bass lines. Everything had a bass line in the background.” – M.I.A. [05:05]
- An awkward church clapping incident makes her realize her natural counter-rhythms. That experience unlocks her first songwriting:
“That day we wrote the ‘Galang’ beat, it was like really restraining yourself... converting it into a machine.” [07:29]
- Her friend recognizes her songwriting ability and encourages her to pursue it.
3. Finding Her Voice
[08:38 – 13:19]
- M.I.A. immerses herself in recording, learning to use her voice as an instrument:
“I’d never heard my voice through a microphone... just becoming comfortable and then having fun with it and then just letting that be the thing... not trying to copy someone else.” – M.I.A. [08:51]
- Her drive for authenticity emerges from both artistic and protective instincts:
“If it’s coming from truth, no one can knock it... It’s better to never second guess what other people are gonna like and do exactly what you feel in the purest form.” – M.I.A. [12:32]
4. The Language of Songwriting
[13:19 – 16:06]
- Her training as a filmmaker and writer influences her approach to lyrics—editing and compressing ideas to three-minute stories.
- The contrast between “long-form” and the brevity demanded by pop music.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
Pursuit of Authenticity
“It's better to never second guess what other people are going to like, and do exactly what you feel in the purest form. Because at least you know you were true to yourself in that moment.”
— M.I.A. [12:35]
Finding Rhythm in Chaos
“When I’m dancing, it kind of comes out different in my body. But when I have to isolate it to just my hands and follow some sort of beat, I just cannot do it. I was filling in all the blanks and stuff.”
— M.I.A. [07:11]
Serendipity and the Path to Music
“When I came back to London, I locked myself in the room, stopped all of my socializing... and for three months, I just sat in this room and learned my voice.”
— M.I.A. [08:39]
Timestamps for Key Segments
| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|---------------------------------------------------| | 00:24–05:02 | Early days, art school, Channel 4 doc, painting | | 05:02–08:38 | Bequia, finding rhythm, writing "Galang" | | 08:38–13:19 | Learning to record, the voice as an instrument | | 13:19–16:06 | Songwriting, editing, merging film/music | | 17:50–21:19 | The making and release of "Galang" | | 21:55–27:00 | The unique sound of "Galang", meeting Diplo | | 29:05–46:54 | Her father's story, Sri Lankan revolution, roots| | 48:23–62:32 | Childhood in war, music scarcity, migration | | 63:35–70:18 | London’s music scene, cultural hybrids | | 70:20–80:08 | Return to Sri Lanka, guilt, attempts at journalism| | 81:12–88:55 | Art school blag, lessons from St. Martin’s | | 88:55–107:06| Spirituality, vision of Jesus, art/purpose | | 107:06–118:28| Protective fashion, tech, launching new brand | | 118:28–119:23| Closing thoughts: humanity, heaven on earth |
Deep Dives and Insightful Stories
The Accidental Pop Star: “Galang” and Breaking In
[17:50 – 21:19]
- “Galang” was never meant as her own record; she auditioned other girls to sing it, but friends and labels were captivated by her demo vocal’s unique energy.
- “The original Galang, which is the Galang that's on the album, is the original demo of me vocaling for the girls.” [19:21]
- Recounts how fate and proximity (her job, home, and XL Recordings office all on the same block) made her record deal feel “effortless.”
Family History & Political Roots
[29:05 – 46:54]
- M.I.A. shares an epic story about her father’s accidental induction into revolutionary politics after studying in Moscow:
“So my dad really studied Tamil through a Russian Jewish professor who was exiled... and was injected with a tiny bit of nationalism.” [32:18]
- Her father’s manuscript, Lankar Rani, – a metaphorical narrative about ideal societies – becomes a revolutionary manifesto.
- Gives a detailed primer on the roots of the Sri Lankan conflict, with personal anecdotes about the violence suffered by her grandfather.
War, Outcast Status, and Music as a Lifeline
[48:23 – 62:32]
- Describes being raised as an outcast due to her father’s activism; her mother conceals his role for the family's safety.
- The importance and scarcity of media during wartime:
“The only songs we had available was movie songs... your input and the way you took it in and memorized it was so intense because that’s the only chance you had.” [53:20]
- Migration to London, learning English through Beatles records, an accidental choir win by singing “Don’t Cry for Me Argentina” phonetically, and becoming the “dancer girl” through Run DMC’s “Tricky.”
London’s Sound Systems & Cultural Fusion
[63:35 – 70:03]
- Teenage years immersed in London’s vibrant club scene, with music as a cross-cultural bridge.
- Explains the mathematical, rhythm-heavy tradition of Tamil music, and its natural affinity for dancehall and hip hop.
Encountering Sri Lanka Again: Activist Impulses
[70:18 – 80:08]
- Goes back to Sri Lanka in 2001 intending to make a documentary, but is confronted by repression, fear, and bureaucracy.
- Touches on survivor’s guilt and the impossible dilemmas of activism:
"You have no idea how this impacts us, you know? ... you're just gonna get us killed." [76:10]
Spiritual Awakening, Artistic Cycles, and Sacred Symbols
[88:55 – 107:06]
- M.I.A. discusses spirituality, transitions from Hindu to Christian perspectives, and her vision of Jesus in 2017.
- She connects past albums to spiritual journeys — for example, how Maya represented both her alter-ego and the “illusion” in Hinduism.
- Details the controversy after flashing a middle finger at the Super Bowl halftime show, learning her legal name corresponds to religious symbolism:
"Her mantra was ‘aim,’ which is MIA backwards. And her Mudra was middle finger. And I'd just been kicked out of America for the middle finger." [99:05]
- Finds meaning and connection in events only when looking back.
Fashion as Protection: The Birth of a Tech-Infused Clothing Line
[107:06 – 118:28]
- Discusses her new clothing brand using high-tech fabric to protect against EMFs and surveillance, inspired by both yoga tradition and digital surveillance concerns:
“While we are in the most exponential growth tech period of our time... imagine how much more we're going to be relying on that. So how do I get around this?” [115:25]
- Describes the almost mystical way elements and ideas come together right when they're needed.
Key Takeaways
- Authenticity Is Everything: M.I.A. repeatedly emphasizes that genuine self-expression and truthful storytelling are unassailable — both creatively and personally.
- Blending Art, Activism, and Survival: Her art is inseparable from her history and her commitment to "reporting" reality as she finds it.
- Epiphany Through Adversity: Many of M.I.A.’s creative and spiritual revelations arise from uncomfortable, even traumatic episodes.
- Interconnectedness of Past and Present: Whether through family lineage, cultural migration, or spiritual searching, she traces the threads of her experiences and sees their patterns revealed over time.
- Technology: Double-Edged Sword: M.I.A. views modern tech as both a potential harm and a site for resistance, creativity, and spiritual reflection.
Final Reflections
“As much as people believe that this is the end of the world and we're in a dire situation, I think it's possible to have heaven on earth and that humanity can survive.”
— M.I.A. [118:24]
This episode is an epic journey through art, trauma, resilience, and the eternal search for meaning. M.I.A.’s candid storytelling—by turns defiant, playful, and meditative—offers a primer in how personal history and global events shape authentic, genre-defying creativity.
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