Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin: Mike Gordon

Release Date: November 5, 2025
Host: Rick Rubin
Guest: Mike Gordon (Phish bassist, solo artist, filmmaker)

Overview

In this candid and sprawling conversation, Rick Rubin sits down with Phish bassist Mike Gordon to dive deep into Phish’s unique culture, the art of jamming, peak musical experiences, creative processes with other artists, and Mike’s own path—including immersive stories of band history, experimentation, and personal transformation. Gordon’s thoughtful, open, and witty perspective gives listeners a rare look inside the world of an improvisational cult hero.

Key Themes & Discussion Points

The Magic of Live Performance & Peak Experiences

• Peak show at Big Cypress [00:02–02:04]
  • Phish's legendary millennium show: 80,000 people, playing from midnight to sunrise.
  • Mike reflects on their long-standing dream of “The LG (Long Gig)”—even contemplating playing for two days straight.
  • Notable quote:
    “So we had an eight hour jam. We had Portalettes on stage because I wouldn’t be able to.” —Mike Gordon [00:02]
• Secret Sets and Festival Culture [02:04–06:28]
  • Early Phish festivals: unique, art-forward, no other bands, inspired by manager John Paluska.
  • Secret 2am sets, including a legendary flatbed truck jam at a Plattsburgh Air Force base:
    “It was absolutely a dream... And our manager... was riding a bicycle along with us at two in the morning with all the fans. And the truck started going a little faster. So the fans dropped off and it was just John Paluska on his bicycle.” —Mike Gordon [02:42]
  • Lemonwheel festival: Pot brownies with his dad—“I realized I was higher than I’d ever been…Apparently 10 minutes later, it hit him and he couldn’t speak. And it was far too much.” [04:25]

Phish’s Fanbase & Live Taping

• Exploring Phish fandom (“Phish heads”) [07:13–08:55]
  • Fans embrace the vast 600-song repertoire, cherish unpredictability, keep track of live “song catches.”
  • “They love what they don’t know. They want to hear something new.” —Mike Gordon [07:22]
• Taping culture & DIY growth [08:55–10:21]
  • Audience recordings key to their grassroots success.
  • Avoiding major label trappings: “We loved the path that we were on.” [10:07]

Early Band Days & Philosophies

• Formation & quitting day jobs [11:05–12:19]
  • Mike had a trust fund; bandmates worked odd jobs: T-shirt printing, chocolate cow painting, maternity bathing suit sewing.
  • Gradual success: “By 91, we were touring nine months out of the year.”
• Philosophy of “saying no” to big support slots to grow naturally [12:07–12:19]
  • “No one likes opening bands. And they’re too much like our influences.”
• Band bonding and lessons from Bruce Hampton [12:50–15:01]
  • Collaboration, improvisation, “vomiting musicians who can really vomit.”
  • Mike’s first film, Outside Out, with Bruce Hampton: “It’s a story about a guitar teacher trying to unteach the student.”

The Art of Improvisation & Jamming

• "Dream world" in artistry [15:46–18:10]
  • Musicianship is a three-part journey: “Listen to everything, transcend influences, then let the muse and universe just play.” [15:46]
• Peak experience: Goddard College [23:16–30:33]
  • The first “religious” musical moment that refocused Mike’s life on music.
  • “I was very transported. I wasn’t in the cosmos. It was being very present with the four other people. I felt like I loved them.” —Mike Gordon [24:33]
• The necessity of physicality and surrender in achieving transcendence [29:03]
  • “The bass was like an amusement park ride that was hovering me through the woods over this new snowfall... I could feel the self-consciousness go away.”
• Listening exercises & collaborative improvisation [31:38–33:49]
  • Developed “the well” exercises to improve communication and reduce aimless noodling.
  • “The listening exercise was a little bit stuck. So we changed it so that we would be complimenting rather than mimicking. And the more we did the listening exercises, the more we hooked up.” [32:14]
• Non-analyze rule & band dynamics [38:44–41:03]
  • Banning post-show criticism to foster creativity.
  • “When we made the no analyze rule, life got much, much better.” [40:35]
• Accepting cliche and finding Nirvana [41:13–44:29]
  • The power of acceptance, even embracing familiar progressions: “When all that kind of thinking goes away and even the cliches are accepted, Nirvana can be reached.”

Collaborations and Creative Practices

• Leo Kotke collaboration [45:09–47:37]
  • “Between the word Ellie Mosonary and those 10 notes of music, we had a career and a friendship together.” —Mike Gordon [47:33]
• Solo career inspiration & “Artist’s Way” [53:04–54:50]
  • Artistic epiphanies and starting a solo band after Phish’s breakup, overcoming writer’s block.

Phish Band Breakup & Rebirth

• Phish breakup in 2004 [53:43–55:42]
  • Main reasons: Drug issues within the band (particularly Trey) and overwhelming management/infrastructure.
  • “I was the one at the meeting who said, actually, I think we're still playing well. I'm disappointed about this.”
• Rain-drenched final festival in Vermont (Coventry) [55:38]
  • Fans walked 20 miles in the mud to attend the final performance.

Musical Eras & Evolution

• Old vs new: transitioning from cover band to unique sound [84:46–88:51]
  • Early years: covers played too traditionally; Halloween albums as a “musical costume.”
  • “There was one… called Kasvat Växt...we created websites that were farcical...and this band had two cousins with a very long name..." [85:21]
• Song development & recording practices [88:53–91:23]
  • Emphasis on live, in-room creation; jams as seed for new material.
  • “I have a little playlist of the original jam where you can hear the little bit that became the song.” [100:09]
  • Steve Lillywhite sessions: “We’d do takes from 5pm till midnight...and sometimes it is the first take...but in the case of that one, it was the one at 4:30 in the morning after the surrender...That’s the good take.” [89:14–90:31]

Brainwaves & States of Flow in Musicianship

• Biofeedback & “being in the zone” [91:23–96:37]
  • Ongoing collaborations with MIT and Bob Weir to measure and enhance musicians’ brainwaves/alpha states.
  • Experiments at Bob Weir’s studio: “We had a switch we could push that would say either I feel like I’m in the zone...”
  • Challenge of movement interfering with brainwave readings.

Influences & Role Models

• Connection to the Grateful Dead [65:33–69:58]
  • Phish and the Dead: Kindred spirits in format, eclecticism, and improvisational ethic—but eschewing their tropes (“We didn't allow ourselves to play a countryish song with a shuffle beat...no Bo Diddley Beat ever early on.” [69:30])
  • “People say, oh, when Jerry Garcia died, Phish took over the legacy of the Grateful Dead. That’s not quite accurate.” [68:08]
• Frank Zappa, Broadway, Impressionism [70:05–76:35]
  • Trey's training with mentor Ernie Stiers; composed “fugues” as initiation rites into deep jams.

Band Member Dynamics & Rituals

• Band member strengths & roles [57:36–62:13]
  • Trey: Supportive, creative leader.
  • Fish: Flows, unhinged, highly disciplined—“His ride cymbal is his best instrument.”
  • Page: “Dad” qualities; moved from varying to repeating patterns over years.
• Playing style evolution: rhythm & groove [96:37–98:24]
  • Early Phish: Guitar-drum axis; later years—bass/drum bedrock, groove emphasis:
    “Trey at the end of the 90s, stopped playing guitar part of the time. He had a percussion rig and an attitude change.”

Personal Growth & Spiritual Practice

• Meditation (Vipassana and TM), dreams, and creativity [105:37–108:12]
  • Mike’s journey from Vipassana to TM, inspired by David Lynch and Jerry Seinfeld. "I hardly ever miss a sitting. Even if it's 3am on the tour bus..." [106:41]
  • Dreams as a benchmark for meaningful musical experience: “For me, knowing that a jam or a set is going to be a deep peak experience, my indication is I have access to my night dreams.” [63:03]
• Acceptance as artistic philosophy [110:52–114:03]
  • “Overall, I think I have an acceptance, especially of my role...Now I really like my role. It's the best job ever...I get to be in a band that likes to have religious experiences with all the fans.” [110:52]

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the Long Gig:
  “We were going to try to go two days. We have all these ideas and only some of them get done.” [00:39]
• On transcendence and musical presence:
  “I was very transported...but it was very natural, like doing the dishes.” [25:05]
• On band longevity and dynamics:
  “It’s amazing that we get along so well. I don’t know another band that has that amount of time with being good friends. The communication has just been so flowing.” [41:13]
• On initial success and anti-commercialism:
  “We loved the path that we were on. It was a very organic, grassroots kind of [growth].” [10:17]
• On the evolution of live jamming:
  “Now they'll just go to A minor. It might take 5 or 10 minutes for anything to happen...It's the muse, you know.” [35:45–37:09]
• On creative originality:
  “Being yourself is probably one of the hardest things to cultivate as a musician.” [15:46]
• On cliches in music:
  “When all that kind of thinking goes away and even the cliches are accepted, Nirvana can be reached.” [44:13]
• On acceptance:
  “If I can even accept that...I’m not looking for cool. I’m looking to literally have the feeling of floating over the crowd.” [43:13]
• On improvisation and flow:
  “Listening to everyone else or listening to the whole is much better than listening to myself.” [37:17]

Important Timestamps

• Phish's millennium show & festival culture: 00:02–06:28
• Musical peak experience at Goddard: 23:16–30:33
• Phish head fandom/taping: 07:13–10:21
• Formation, jobs, band growth: 11:05–12:19
• Band breakup and reformation: 53:43–55:42; 102:18–103:16
• Jamming, listening exercises, non-analyze rule: 31:38–41:03
• Brainwave experiments & role of technology: 91:23–96:37
• Meditation & creative acceptance: 105:37–110:52

Conclusion

Mike Gordon’s Tetragrammaton episode is a masterclass in the philosophy and craft of improvisational music. With humility and humor, Mike pulls back the curtain on band chemistry, the joys and pitfalls of creative risk-taking, and the ongoing discipline of letting go and truly listening—both in music and in life. The episode is a goldmine for creators, musicians, and fans eager for candid, emotional insight into the life of an artist always searching for the next transcendent note.