Mike White

Summary

Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin – Mike White

Episode Date: January 7, 2026
Host: Rick Rubin
Guest: Mike White (creator of The White Lotus, writer/director/actor)

Episode Overview

This episode of Tetragrammaton features an in-depth conversation between Rick Rubin and writer/creator Mike White, best known for his acclaimed series The White Lotus. The discussion is a freewheeling exploration of creativity, spirituality, past lives, the psychology of storytelling, reality TV, and White’s personal and professional journeys. The conversation features Mike’s characteristic candor, humor, and vulnerability as he reflects on art, fame, family, the demands of the creative process, and life beyond the camera.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Exploring Past Lives and Spirituality

• Past Lives Therapy (00:24 – 07:23)

  • Mike shares his experience with Shirley MacLaine and a “past lives” retreat in New Mexico.
    • “Shirley MacLaine was a friend of mine. She made me go to New Mexico and I did this for like five days.” (00:24 – Mike White)
  • Describes the therapy’s use of color and memory to heal past traumas associated with death in previous lives.
  • Sees these ideas as meaningful especially for storytelling and processing mortality, regardless of literal belief.
  • Storytelling parallel: Satisfaction in story endings mirrors our quest for closure in life and death.

• Art, Identity, and the Self

  • White was moved by the concept of being a “protean creation,” not fixed to one self or body (07:07).
    • “I love the idea of not being too attached to your form—that you are part of this protean creation...” (06:09 – Mike White)
  • Spirituality as philosophical framework rather than dogma; a Western Buddhist approach.

2. Creative Process & Personal History

• From Childhood Influences to Writing (10:25 – 15:22)

  • Raised in a religious, academic household; his father was a seminary professor who watched films theologically.
    • “There was this idea of using movies as a way to talk about ethics and about the value system of a movie.” (11:55 – Mike White)
  • Early obsession with disaster movies and musicals (Poseidon Adventure, Fiddler on the Roof).
  • As a child, loved words, reading, and had OCD tendencies with language and numbers.

• Relationship With Sister

  • Mike’s sister was adopted after six miscarriages by his mother, then he was born. They were close in age but very different.

3. The Genesis and Appeal of The White Lotus

• “What makes White Lotus different than other TV shows?” (16:12)
  • Follows characters over a week; low on plot but high in character exploration and subtle tension.
  • Weekly episode release creates anticipation and conversation in audience (17:24–17:42).
  • Success partly due to COVID-era timing, unique formula, and the ability to set each season in a new location.
    • “It’s the same thing I’ve always done, but there’s just this kind of… I honestly have no idea why it’s a success.” (18:35 – Mike White)
  • Personal motivation often blends lifestyle with creativity – “I’m about the lifestyle… I don’t even care if people like or watch my shit, to be honest.” (20:56)

4. On Directing & Collaboration

• Writing vs. Directing (28:23 – 31:28)

  • Initially reluctant to direct; prefers writing and finds managing others challenging.
  • Eventually found it easier to direct his own work than try to persuade others (“It would just be easier for me to go do it and interpret it myself.” – 29:09).
  • Discussed aversion to being “the boss” and the burden of people’s expectations.

• Working With Actors

  • The job involves reading actors’ personalities and tailoring his approach: “Knowing which people are sensitive and you need to be gentle here, which people need to be challenged.” (32:57)

5. Navigating Hollywood: Burnout, Breakdown, and Renewal

• Industry Pressures and Mental Health (36:10 – 41:08)
  • Early work on Dawson’s Creek and Freaks and Geeks.
  • Honest recounting of a nervous breakdown during a show at Fox (“I was put in a hospital, which I escaped from.” – 37:09).
  • Details the pressure of network expectations versus creative integrity.
    • “I would fight and I would just fall apart…I was just not somebody who could do the creative job and also fight all that time.” (40:44 – Mike White)
  • Now values environments (like HBO) where he’s trusted and allowed autonomy.

6. Reality TV, Survivor, and the Psychology of Competition

• Reality Show Participation (45:19 – 50:05)
  • White describes his fascination and participation with Survivor and The Amazing Race.
  • Compelled by the drama and psychology, but finds the suffering much harder without cameras; reality TV becomes a social experiment and a form of showbiz.
    • “I think the cameras give you life…To suffer alone, anonymously, like that’s suffering.” (46:03)
  • Contrasts early seasons (with everyday people) vs. later seasons with ‘professional contestants.’
  • Survivor reflects his fascination with survival dynamics, tracing it to childhood and even his own literal survival as a child.

7. Writing Process and Creative Philosophy

• Gestation & Structure (52:33 – 56:08)

  • White prefers “gestating” – developing ideas deeply before writing, then executing quickly.
    • “The gestating before the writing is super fun…and I like to try to stay, keep myself from writing until…it’s ready to be born.” (53:13 – Mike White)
  • Places “character” and “philosophy” as top priorities over story, dialogue, or setting (54:53). For him, philosophical concepts give birth to characters.

• Emotional Connection to Writing

  • Experiences laughter and tears while writing (54:10–54:19): “If I’m laughing, I don’t know if it’s always funny to other people, but it is funny to me.”
  • Writes first and foremost to entertain himself.

• Collaborative Fluidity

  • Enjoys when actors (“Parker Posey comes in with this just, like, totally different kind of energy”) take roles in new, unexpected directions (66:03).

8. Art, Spirituality, and the Unknown

• Spiritual Practice & Uncertainty (74:00 – 76:11)
  • Identifies as a “Western Buddhist.” Draws on the concept of non-self, and appreciates not knowing as a virtue.
    • “I want to live in a place of unsurety…It’s okay to not know and be, you know, modest about what I really know.” (74:09)
  • Finds art itself to be a spiritual act and values remaining open, unlanded, and flexible in his worldview.

9. Family, Influence, and Compassion

• Parental Lessons (77:47 – 79:19)
  • Learnt “compassion as a deep source of self” from his father, framed in Christian spirituality:
    “There’s something beautiful about seeing each person as a soul who is worthy of saving…a child of God.” (77:57)
  • Both parents were “dreamers,” shaping his tendency for introspection and imagination.

10. Reflections on Upbringing and Culture

• Childhood in Pasadena (79:24)
  • Appreciates the lack of digital distractions growing up, allowing for introspection and ‘hero’s journey’ of finding culture.
  • Expresses gratitude for that era:
    “I thank God every day that I wasn’t born in this time of all of this easy distractions…” (79:34)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Metaphysics & Storytelling

“You can run from those bad feelings, but they’ll find you.”
(01:39, Mike White)

On Creative Motivation

“What I care about is, if I’m able to keep doing it and go...”
(20:56, Mike White)

On Directing vs. Writing

“It would just be easier for me to go do it and interpret it myself than to keep trying to sit on set and be like, are you sure you want to do it that way?”
(29:09, Mike White)

On Success and Timing

“It might have to do with just how it fits in the world in this moment in time.”
(18:48, Rick Rubin)

On Art as a Spiritual Enterprise

“I think art is a spiritual enterprise.”
(74:00, Mike White)

On Competition and Survival

"It’s a pagan playground of these different, like, personality types that are all trying to, like..."
(50:07, Mike White)

On Letting Go of Perfectionism

“Perfectionism is the enemy of productivity… It also made me sort of miserable.”
(60:42, Mike White)

On Compassion Learned From His Father

"You have to be of service to each person. And each person is a divine self.”
(78:55, Mike White)

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Selected Timestamps for Key Segments

• Past Lives Retreat with Shirley MacLaine: 00:24 – 07:23
• On Childhood Films and Storytelling: 10:25 – 15:22
• White Lotus Structure and Success: 16:12 – 21:47
• Hollywood Breakdown and Mental Health: 36:10 – 41:08
• Reality TV Reflections: 45:19 – 50:05
• Writing Process and Priorities: 52:33 – 56:08
• Spiritual Practices and Uncertainty: 74:00 – 76:11
• Lessons from his Father: 77:47 – 78:55
• On Growing up Pre-Internet: 79:24 – 80:33

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Episode Takeaways

• Mike White’s creativity is deeply intertwined with his spiritual inquiries, unusual upbringing, and sensitivity to both suffering and joy.
• The White Lotus is successful as much for its unique, lo-fi structure as for its resonance with audience desire for character-driven, urgent narratives in leisurely environments.
• Mike’s relationship with creative control has shifted from rigidity and perfectionism toward collaboration, acceptance, and a pragmatic view of his role as both writer and director.
• His life and art are colored by a continual quest for meaning, self-understanding, and connection—with others and with something ineffable beyond words.
• The episode is full of generously honest insights, humorous self-deprecation, and philosophy applicable to both artists and anyone wrestling with personal and professional purpose.

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This summary distills the heart of the conversation, capturing Mike White’s voice and the dynamic, curious tone of the exchange, while providing structure for listeners to revisit specific ideas or topics with ease.

Transcript

[Podcast Host]

Tetragrammaton.

[Mike White]

I did have like my past lives. This whole past life thing where they. You do your past life. It's. Shirley McLean was a friend of mine. She was like. She made me go to New Mexico and I did this for like five days. And like the past lives are all about like so much of it is about how you died. Like how each. At least this is what this one thing was like and how much how you end it has to do with what you're still dealing with. And that like it, like the end is important and like. And in fact, like in this, this. I mean, I'm. I'm not co Signing on this, but this was just. The philosophy was that like, you know, they used light, some kind of like color therapy or whatever so that like you remember the death and then like you think of a color and then the color somehow heals or like somehow provides some kind of catharsis so that then that death is sort of lifted off of you. So you're not like still dealing with the fallout from the death or whatever. So it's just. Yeah. I mean, whether you believe that or not, it's just like as a storyteller, it makes sense that like, you know, you're always trying to figure out what is the satisfying ending for your story, like, what is the conclusion. And you think about life as this journey to death. I want for my friends and I want for my family and I want for myself a. A cushy, like a, you know, like a soft landing. I don't want to. You know, it's like you. It's like as you get older and you experience more people dying, there's very few deaths that aren't kind of grim or you go through the process of dying is also. It's about loss. You lose things along the way. I mean, especially when you're young and healthy, you look at that and be like, oh my God, this is like so depressing. Do you mean because you see people lose their hearing, their ability to control their bowels of all these things that are some sort of humiliation. But I guess. But maybe as you actually experience those things, maybe that's a part of letting go of this, you know, like, it's like getting used to the idea of losing someone. You slowly lose them. You know, you can run from those bad feelings, but they'll find you.

[Interviewer]

Have you had any people close to you pass?

[Mike White]

I mean, yeah, I've had a pretty good run as far as in general. Not had like major tragedies. My parents are still alive. I've had friends that have in the last couple years, but I haven't been knocked on my knees over something.

[Interviewer]

Like, how did you meet Shirley MacLaine?

[Mike White]

Shirley MacLaine I met at a party. And, like, I was just, you know, like, I was a fan, so I started talking to her, and then, like, she was always, like, trying to get me to do. I was always interested because I knew she. You know, I knew she was into metaphysical stuff, so I was always, like, trying to pick her brain books. Yeah, she was like, you know, know out on a limb. And I mean, she is like, next level as far as just like, somebody who's known, you know, beyond just like, as a movie star, like, you know, known all these big characters over all these decades. But, like, she also knew, like, spiritual leaders and political leaders. I mean, she was very, like. She had, like, tentacles into all of these different worlds and was like, you know, she's a primary source, so she's a trip. So. But anyway, like, I would always bug her about it. She'd be like, I'm not talking about this anymore. You're going to have to get your past lives done. And so, like, she set it all up. But.

[Interviewer]

But yeah, so she's Tell me how it started. You went to a place to do this?

[Mike White]

Yeah, she was like, so in Galisteo, New Mexico, there's this place called the Light. I don't even know if it still exists, but this place called the Light Institute. And it, like, literally looks like a janky B movie, like sci fi movie from the, like, 60s or something. Like, the buildings are all, like, totally kook and, like. And everybody looks, you know, like, the woman who did it, she has, like, shock white hair and blue eyes. I mean. And, like, I got. I got there and they were like, oh, yeah. You know, they're talking about they all have seen extraterrestrials. She's like, you know, it used to be exciting. Now I just see them and I just leave them alone. I don't care. You know, it's like, I'm just not that guy. I'm curious, but I'm not. I'm a skeptic or whatever. And then they put me in this, like, circular room with all these animal pelts and, like, bongo drums and, like, it was super hot. And I had partied the night before I had come to Galaxy. I was like. I think I was coming off of, like, an Adderall bit. I don't know what. So, like, I was in this thing and I was like, it was like I was being cooked in a tangine or something. Like, I was so hot.

[Interviewer]

Was it a sweat lodge?

[Mike White]

Well, she was. I was just waiting to go in there, but it was just hot outside. And I was in this thing, and I was just like. I was probably dehydrated or whatever. By the time I got in there and was on the bed, I was like. I was like, the perfect way to go because I was just so open and brain, like, you know, like brain rot. Anyway, so I was just, like, ready to go. Like, the first time that I was with this woman, it wasn't about past lives. It was just about memories of this life where she would say, connect with certain parts of yourself. And I had never done anything like that where I was thinking about memories that I hadn't had. You know, like, I really hadn't unpacked since I was a little kid and crying and not in a sad. Just like, having this, like, really intense relationship to the child self. And I was like. I came out of it. I was like, this is like. It was so cathartic. And I was, like, completely sobbing and like. And so then I signed up to do the five days. So I, like, just did that one little session. And then I was like, okay, I'm in it. And then I went back and I was like, this is like. It was like a second date. And you're like, why did I think that first day was so good? And I was like, how am I going to get through this? Like, I was just like. It was so awkward and then. But it was actually really formative in some way. And I had. I came home and, like, if you go to my house now, there's paintings of all the different past lives. I had this artist do the lives. And so there's all of these different lives done in the stuff. So, like, if it's a Japanese life, it's, like, done in these kind of Japanese prints. And it's like. And so, like. Yeah, I just. I love. I don't. Whether I believe in past lives or not. I love the idea of not being too attached to your form, that you are this. You're part of this protean creation, and you're coming into the world in this form, but this is not you. And that you've. You've been all these other forms. You've been a Cuban woman, or you've been a Chinese, you know, leader or. You know what I mean? And so that this self that you have is not intrinsic to yourself. You know what I Mean, it's a Buddhist kind of or whatever. It is like a, you know, it's an Eastern sort of philosophy. And I think that that is whether it's true. It's helpful. And I think it's also a way to experience others, to see them in this, you know, that they are you. And then these elements that feel like they're, you know, these inherited elements or that. That we find to be othering or whatever, that really. That's just. It's just yourself in a different form.

[Interviewer]

Do you feel changed by that experience?

[Mike White]

Yeah, I don't know if it changed me in the sense of like, I am, you know, I was a believer or something, but I. I felt like it's a powerful analogy that I still like, draw. You know, sometimes they like, I'll watch some Ken Burns documentary and then they'll have the old. Like I was watching the American Revolution. They have like these first person accounts of like, being in the American Revolution and like the fight and they put on the fife drums and they put the, like the music. And there's a. There's moments where I'm like. I don't know whether it's just the artistry or just like, I'm just like, I'm Like I am there. Like, I am also and like this sense of like, the universality of experience and that you can transcend time, you can transcend the self, that like, those things are accessible in some way. And that as you go into this dream state at night, every night, it's like you're. You're creating new selves and you're connecting with old selves. And, you know, it's like, again, it's like, do I believe it? Like in the. Literally. Because I would go to Shirley McLean and be like, you know, some of it I feel like is. Is really uncanny. And some of it I feel like I'm making up. She's like, it happened to you. She's like a very, like, it's like a fundamentalist Christian, but like, she's like a fundamentalist. Like, you know, and I am not a fundamentalist, but like, I do think there's just something about it that is. There's some things that are just inexplicable where you just have these, like, emotional. I'm sure you've had. I mean, you're. As an artist, you know, like, that's part of what art is, is like vibing into something that you didn't think you'd ever vibe into and you're suddenly dropped down into some Other person's thing, and you're like, this feels so familiar. You know what I mean?

[Interviewer]

Do you have that from art, too? Like, if you watch a movie, do you see yourself in a movie or. No.

[Mike White]

It's hard as I. I don't know how you feel about, like, as I get older, I. I don't really like to watch things as much as I used to when I was a kid. I just consumed everything and, like, it really is hard for me to go see anything anymore or. Or, like, try to. It's like I. I feel often trapped inside art or, like, it feels claustrophobic in certain kinds of experiences. Like, sometimes I'll get. Like, there'll be some amazing movie or something, and I'll just feel really lit up.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Mike White]

But often, you know, it's like, often I don't even give it a chance because I'm just like, I. It's. I don't know. It's. I feel like I. I like creating. If it's a friend, something, I want to be a part of that. But, like, I don't know. I'm just. It's like, I just feel like I've given so much time to watching things that I feel like I don't. You know, I did it, I think, when I was young to try to learn and steal and, like. You know what I mean? Like. And I was. Of course. Obviously, that's why I chose it. I was completely engaged, and the spark was I was really into seeing stuff, but, like, I've gotten to be more. It's like, I just don't want to give it more time than I want to because it's just. There's so much.

[Interviewer]

What are the kind of things that you watched as a kid?

[Mike White]

Well, it was funny because I was from a religious household, and so, like, a lot of things that we couldn't. We didn't really watch. So, like, there were a couple movies that were taped off tv. Like, I think that, like, I can name them. Like, the Poseidon Adventure. Fiddler on the Roof. Freaking. I don't know. Like, probably Oliver, you know, like, some. And I would just watch him fight, like, 500 times. Like, I would reenact the Poseidon Adventure in my backyard, like, on the wreck. Whether I had friends or by myself. Like, I remember, like, I, like, did a redo of Airport 77 at my second grade on the bleachers and got everybody to, like, be one of the dead people in Airport 77. So there was just, like, a couple. I don't know. I like Disaster movies. And I liked flipping, I guess, certain musicals like Fiddler on the Roof or something like Fiddler on the Roof. I still is, like, best movie. Right. I left Fiddler on the Roof for some reason.

[Interviewer]

And then. How would you say your taste developed over time?

[Mike White]

Well, so my. So, yeah, my. My family was religious and. And. But my dad was a professor at a seminary of audio visual. So he was actually he. And he wrote like, movie criticism for Christianity Today. So it was like he would watch movies, but always through this sort of theological Christian lens.

[Interviewer]

Would he talk about it with you?

[Mike White]

Yeah. So, like, there was this. This idea of using movies as a way to talk about ethics and talk about the value system of a movie or the. The hero's journey through a sort of Christian lens, which I think has definitely impact, obviously impacted me. But then I also. In second grade, I had a teacher, was Sam Shepard, the playwright. His mother was my second grade teacher.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Mike White]

So she was like. And she was a cool lady and I was into her and she was really obviously proud of her son. And so she. So, like, when I was pretty young, I started, like, reading Sam Shepard plays. And then I realized that that was a career that people had. And then, yeah, I was just always a little. Then I started, like, writing little plays and I was just, yeah, a little weird, creative kid. I remember I got the record of who's Afraid. I mean, I was pretty young, like, who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? And I would listen to it and follow along. I just like the way the plays, like, you know, like, it's funny how when you're a kid, little things just get. Have. There's some, like Freud would say, like a cathex, like some kind of erotic charge. Not even, like, he would access it as an erotic thing, but like something that would just really, like, just float your boat. Turn you on. Exactly. I really like just how the words would land on the page and how it was like this kind of like. It was kind of like, you know, I guess as a musician where you see notes and, you know, you just like seeing. Like to see how the music relates to the notes and, like, orchestrating that, you know, and it's like.

[Interviewer]

Was it about the words on the page or was it about the performance of those words?

[Mike White]

It's like. It's a connection. It's like I really liked to see the words on the page and then see how it, like, was translated into sound and how. But yeah, I guess even when I was a kid, I used to walk around with, like, little note Cards with just words. I just loved words. And so, like, there was just something about. It was like, you know, it's like an incantation or, like, you're like. It's like. Yeah, there's something about putting words together.

[Interviewer]

Did you write the cards yourself?

[Mike White]

No. They were, like, basically learning how to, you know, no words. You know what I mean? But I was just, like, really into the words and just. I don't know, it's just like. And I. When I was little, I was OCD and had more like. So every word had seven letters or any word. You know, you're counting the letters. I was just. You know what I mean? It was like. It was like a. Kind of like a. I was just a word. Word person.

[Interviewer]

It's cool.

[Mike White]

Yeah. I mean, I think there's just. Some people are. Yeah, it's like, just like music. Some people are really into music or like, math. You have numbers and.

[Interviewer]

Would you read a lot in general?

[Mike White]

Yeah. I was really into reading when I was a kid. I was. Yeah, I was big on reading and.

[Interviewer]

Any particular fiction.

[Mike White]

And I. I liked. I mean, my parents were educated people and were very smart. They were in this world of, like, Christian, you know, it's like. And so, like, I was like. And for. I don't know why, but, like, I had got a subscription to the New Yorker. I started reading Pauline Kale. I was just like. I was. I was some classic, like, weird, precocious kid, and I was like, you know, it was boring up in the fucking foothills of Eaton. And we. It was like. We could. We could roll on. Like, there weren't many kids around. We would, like, go on the freaking. What do you call it? Like, we'd have, like, a wheelbarrow. We'd go down the thing and, like. But then after that, I'd be like, okay. So, like, I was Just. Had this. You know, it built out this sort of inner life of being interested in other things, you know, Like, I was. So I. So, yeah, I spent a lot of time reading and.

[Interviewer]

Do you have brothers and sisters?

[Mike White]

I have a sister, yeah.

[Interviewer]

Older? Younger.

[Mike White]

She's older, and she's a teacher now in the same area that I grew up in.

[Interviewer]

What was your relationship with her like?

[Mike White]

I mean, it's complicated. I mean, she's. I mean, she. She's adopted and. And I'm not. And we were just. We were very close in age, but very. Just different. We're just. Just different.

[Interviewer]

Was she adopted before you came or after?

[Mike White]

My mom had, like, six miscarriages, and then. Then they adopted my sister and then she got pregnant and then had me, and I was the only kid. So. My sister's great. She's awesome. But, like, it was definitely, like. It wasn't like she. We had overlapping interests or, you know, she wasn't like a. Yeah, we weren't concocting stuff together, really.

[Interviewer]

How much older was she?

[Mike White]

Nine months.

[Interviewer]

Oh, so very close.

[Mike White]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Interesting. Let's talk about White Lotus a little bit. What do you think makes White Lotus different than other TV shows?

[Mike White]

It's a good question. I mean, I think one of the things that's different about White Lotus and it's not necessarily the thing that is the reason why it's successful or it's necessarily the reason why. I don't know. It's of interest, but it's. It's definitely, I think, why it's something that I enjoy keep doing it, which is like. Because of the format. It's really just like, following people over a week. There's something about that as a format that, like, it's like, I wouldn't want to write something that's super plotty, you know, and at the same time, I don't know, there's something about. Just like. Because of the time element of it, it, like, leads to certain kinds of. It's like. It's. In a way, it is like, little plays, but because there's this, like, kind of conceit, there's this little hook, you know, that like, keeps that. And this sort of propulsive hook.

[Interviewer]

Does a whole season take place in a week?

[Mike White]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And when they would come out, would they come out one per week or did they come out as a group?

[Mike White]

They come out one per week. And I think something about it, because it's come out one a week. There's like. It starts with, like, somebody. Like, something bad is gonna happen. You don't know exactly. Someone's gonna die. Something bad. But then it's just following these people on vacation and it's like their little interests and, you know, it's like. It's so. It's kind of like very. It's very lo fi in terms of, like. There's not like tons of stuff going on, but you just feel like it's all leading to, like, I don't know, like someone's gonna, like a sack, a human sacrifice or something. So it's like somehow it keeps people's interest, but, like, it feels very, like, observational and more about. I don't know. There's something about it. I don't think there's many shows like that. Like, it's like, because of its. It has its own formula that, like, I think is. Is fun for me because I really don't. I mean, I don't know. I don't know what I'm doing, period. But, like, I, like, It's just a funny. As somebody who's, like, written these character stuff that, like, for two varying degrees of success and of interest to other people, something about this has just, like, kind of, like, landed in a way that is amusing because it's. It's the same thing I've always done, but there's just this kind of, like. I honestly have no idea why it's a success. I'm happy that it is, but I don't. I just. I've always been the same guy. And, like, some things explode and some things die by. Die on the vine that even have.

[Interviewer]

Anything to do with it. It might have to do with just how it fits in the world in this moment in time.

[Mike White]

Exactly. Well, what. The first season, it was like, we did it during. And then it came out when there wasn't a lot of product because people weren't able to make it because of all these things shutting down. So we were able to get it out. And it just. I think, because it just felt new. Something new. Like, it just took on a life. And then I just think I was at the stage in my career where it was kind of like, if, like, I had been younger, different times, I think I would have fucked it up. But, like, I feel like. I mean, not to say like, what. You know, whatever people can decide what, you know, everybody's gonna have their own opinion about, you know, this season's bad or this season's good or whatever. But, like, I just. It's like the fact that I can actually, like, write them all and do them all. And like, in the time that I. It's like, I feel like that's because I'm at this stage in my career where I'm like, I know how to do that.

[Interviewer]

You know, how would it be different if the season was a feature film instead of a series?

[Mike White]

I think it's the cliffhanger of it. It's like, it's real and, you know, someone's. Something bad is gonna happen. Like, people. By the end of the season, there's like, a big froth of, like, people being like, I gotta know what happens. And that's. That's kind of fun as a writer to be like. Yeah. And I think because it's dropped, like, once A week. It just. It becomes a conversation point between people. And so it's like, it's fun to watch that in real time as people get, like, you know, they're really, like, grappling with it. Do people have, like, theories about, like, TikTok? I mean, that's part of the. I think it's like, in this world of, like, social media interaction, for whatever reason, it's been one of those shows that people have really, like, engaged where they dress up as the character. They, you know, they're doing impersonations of different, you know, like. So it's like that part is, you know, as like, a creator, it's fun to see. It catches some imaginative fire in others, and then they are creating stuff because of it. And that. That's always cool.

[Interviewer]

Do you remember where the original idea came from?

[Mike White]

I mean, bro, the truth is, like, I'm not. I'm like, I'm a true hat. I mean, in the sense of, like, I really am about the lifestyle. I'm like, I believe in art in a way, like, but I don't believe in it as a. Like, I don't care about a legacy. I really don't care about, like, I don't even care if people like or watch my shit, to be honest. Like, what I care about is, like, if I'm able to go, do. Keep doing it and go. And so. So for me is, like, I learned early on, like, and this sounds like a spoiled bitch, but, like, it's just like, I don't want to do a show that I have to drive over the 405 to Disney. I don't want to go on a soundstage. I don't want to do that. I don't want to. Like, it's like, I want to. Like, it's like, I want. Like, I feel like I'm. Am I getting too real? No. Okay, this is real. I just, like, I don't. Like, I. You know, even the best, coolest thing, if it. You can still feel dead about it. Do you mean?

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Mike White]

So it's like, I. And I'm. I'm kind of, like, very sensitive to, like, feeling like, okay, this feels like a routine, or this feels like a job, or this feels like, you know, I mean, like, I want to. Like, I. I like to see new places. I like to explore new cultures. And I personally, I'm like, I know I'm. I can do this job. So it's not about whether I can do it or not. It's just, like, is cool. Like, do I really Want to do this. And so tv, like, this is one where I'm like, so maybe I follow a couple on their honeymoon, and, like, just then, like, go to Sri Lanka, and we'll shoot the thing, and then they'll go to the Maldives. And I'm, like, trying to think, like, what is the. Sounds, like, the most freaking fun. You know what I mean? And so the problem was Covid, I was like, oh, I have this. I always had this idea of, like, a couple on a honeymoon, and then they would. You know, you realize in. You know, because I went on, like, Amazing Race, and you realize when you're on these trips that these, like, you know, like, if you and I are hanging out here for a week, I'll know this Rick Rubin. But if you and I are then suddenly sent on a trip somewhere and we're, like, having to, like, deal with, like, cab drivers and whatever, I'll see a different Rick Ruben. It's the same with me.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Mike White]

So, like, I just thought that that's an interesting thing. You start with a couple who's all really into themselves, and then they go on this trip, and then they realize who they married. And so I was like, that'd be fun, because then we could travel around and do all this, you know? But then I. Because of COVID I was like, no, you have to just do it in one place. We'll follow different people on a trip. And then. And. And. And I just. At the time, I was just like, I didn't want to go back to tv, but, like, I was so bored during COVID and it was like, I was literally. I was driving around the west with my dog, and I was like, this. I mean, this is cool, but, like, I'm, like, ready to do something. So, like, I did the show, and then, like, then I'm like, oh, well, each season, we could go somewhere new. We go Thailand, we go to Japan.

[Interviewer]

We could go to, like, have any of the shows done that.

[Mike White]

Not in this way. Not in this. I mean, I don't think. I mean, maybe, but I'd love that.

[Interviewer]

There was no model that you based it on.

[Mike White]

No, no, no. And it's, like, really was just, like, this fantasy of mine to always be able to keep growing both as a writer and a creator or whatever. But also, like, you know, having that, even if the show was a turd, that, like, the experience of going to make a show in, like, Sicily, you're gonna have. Yeah. Somebody's gonna come cool out of that. You're gonna meet. And also, you Know, you. Whenever you're traveling, you always want to, like. You want to be more than just sightseeing. You know what I mean? You want to, like, have sex with the land or. You know what I mean? Or, like, you just want to get involved with the people in some way that's more, you know, legit or, like, where you're really getting something. You know what I mean? And so, like, that. I just. That part of it is kush. So I. So, yeah, so I'm. I like this idea. I am happy to keep doing this, and now they're paying me. It's like. It's like, this is probably it. I'm just gonna finish this, and then I'm gonna. I don't know. I'm probably gonna be. I'm probably not gonna keep working. I don't know.

[Interviewer]

I don't know. But you describe driving around with your dog.

[Mike White]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

That's what it would feel like if you stop working.

[Mike White]

Yeah, maybe I just feel like. It's like. It's just weird how it's like, yeah, I don't know how I'll feel, but I'm getting older. It's like, I'm like. I don't. I think I'm starting to like the resort life. Like, you wake up, you go to the gym, you eat some food, you go play some tennis, you eat some food. What else do you do? I don't know, but it seems fun. It's just like this whole thing of, like. I mean, it's like. It's like, I know I'm good. I can do this. I mean, when I say I'm good at it, I'm like, I can actually just do it. It doesn't mean I'm, you know, whatever.

[Interviewer]

It doesn't mean anyone will like it.

[Mike White]

I'm not.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, but you can finish the project.

[Mike White]

Yeah, exactly. Which is more than some people can do. So that's something. So, like. But. But. Yeah, I don't. I don't know. I. I sometimes wrestle with that. I mean, I know that you are Mr. Creative and keep the. You know, it's like you. It's all about. But I. But there's a part of me is like, do I really want to always just be creative? Maybe I just want to eat and play tennis.

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[Interviewer]

How is it different when you write something if you don't direct it.

[Mike White]

Then it's like you're just kind of working to figure out how to manipulate the director and doing it the way you want. It's like. Or not manipulative, but just like you're trying to. Because I didn't really want to tell me. I didn't really want to direct it in the beginning because I don't really like managing people. You know, it's like I'm not, I sort of, I've only built a, a knack for that over. You know, I started I the first time I directed I was like in my late 30s. So I really waited a while and I'd had a lot of stuff made before that, so it was like I was really kind of like hovering and.

[Interviewer]

Were you looking forward to getting that chance or no?

[Mike White]

No, it was just more like I just got over time. I was just like, I just, it's like it would just be easier for me to just go do it and interpret it myself than to keep trying to like sit on set and be like are you sure you want to do it? You know, like whatever. You sure you want to do like that.

[Interviewer]

It's annoying, horrible.

[Mike White]

And it's also, it's annoying to other people and annoying me. So I don't feel like I'm one of those people where like, I heard your interview with Woody Allen and the way he would talk about it was like, I don't really, I don't enjoy it enough to say that it's something that I want to constantly be in the cycle of doing. I can relate to his philosophy of it's better to spend your time thinking about problems that you can solve by making the art better than these existential things that you can't do much about. But at the same time, it's like I feel like I'm in this idea of wanting to just as a person, I want to. I don't know, like I, I kind of feel like it's like goes back to what I was saying before is just like sometimes creativity can be just a knee jerk reaction to things, you know, I mean like, or just not as creativity, but like writing the script. It's like, I don't know what else to do, so I'll just do this again. Jimmy. And it's like I've always been afraid of not having enough money. Like, I've always used money as an excuse to keep doing things. And then at some point you're just like, I can't use that as an excuse anymore. And what am I going to like, I don't know, I'd be like, to like push myself to try to find other ways to like grow beyond just this way of interacting, especially when you're in charge. Like, I get tired of being, I'm tired of my opinion being so meaningful to people and like having stuff and like suddenly everybody has to do. You know what I mean? I don't know. Like I'm.

[Interviewer]

But it's only that for your stuff. It's not like you get to dictate what anyone else thinks about anything.

[Mike White]

No.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, you're just saying this is how I see it.

[Mike White]

Yeah, but I've just been on this.

[Interviewer]

And you get to share it.

[Mike White]

Yeah. So like, but like for five years now it's just been, I've just been doing this nonstop. So like I can't get off this bus. Which is okay, I'm not complaining. But it's just like at some point I was just like, I'd like to just fuck off and maybe you'll do.

[Interviewer]

That at some point and you'll either see, yes, this works for me, or can't wait to get back.

[Mike White]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had a question for you, which is like, when you're dealing with all these people, do you ever feel like you're because it's like, to me, I think that when I think about you, and obviously I'm impressed by you and always have been for a long time. As you approach each artist, mind melding and getting in their heads, is there a part of you feels like not because you're not a con artist, because you're not stealing anything. You're enhancing everything that they're doing? But there is a con. Is there a con game element to it? Is there, like a confidence game that, like, is like, are you. Are you doing something? Kind of a guru?

[Interviewer]

Confidence is part of it, which is if I'm working with an artist who does something that I see is great, and I see that they're insecure about it, which most artists are, I can have the confidence for them that they don't have for themselves. And it helps get them over the line there.

[Mike White]

Yeah. Just because sometimes it's like with actors I, like, I have all these actors on the show, and you're trying to get the best out of each person and, like. But you. There is something about it where I'm like, I. I feel like I'm like, you know, my personality and my Persona becomes massaged by this job that I have. Do you mean where I'm there to.

[Interviewer]

You know, like, you treat people nicer than you would normally do?

[Mike White]

Well, it says. It's just like. Well, yeah. Knowing which people are sensitive and you need to be gentle here, which people need to be challenged.

[Interviewer]

That's true. In life, though. That's how we treat the people around.

[Mike White]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just. It's like a part of me, you go. You go like, is this. Is this. How does that end up affecting my. Myself by being always thinking about people through that prism. Do you know what I mean?

[Interviewer]

Interesting. Never thought about it that way.

[Mike White]

In a way, it's a very. It makes you move out forward into the world. It's like you are. You are trying to have a very. Because. And especially with art, like, you're having the most. You're. You're going into, like, a deep. It's like, you know, it's. It's not sex, but it's as bad as it could be. As intimate as that.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Mike White]

And you're getting at people in their most vulnerable, you know, spa. And you're. You're in there, you know, I mean, and what's cool about it is that you're actually generating these relationships and you're. You're reaching out into. Into them in a way that, like, you know, some People wouldn't dare to go. You know what I mean? So it's like you're. You're spreading out, but it also, like, I just wonder then the power you have, like, it's like a. You know, it's a powerful thing, you know, especially artists, you know, they want to be seen and. And you're. You're telling them that you see them. Like you just said, like, I see you. I see in something even more than you even see yourself, which is like a head trip, you know?

[Interviewer]

Yeah. A lot of it is psychological and helping someone unlock themselves. So it's therapy, essentially. Yeah. Do you feel like you lose yourself in the process?

[Mike White]

No, it's just more like I. I find it very. It's like I. I. Maybe I just feel a little more burdened by it because it's like, it's. Sometimes I don't know what it's like over time. Like, you know, what happens in all these relations. Like, you. You sort of feel like sometimes with actors, you feel like. Like they're dolls on the shelf waiting to be played with, and they need you to come and play with them. And then you're playing with them, and then, you know, then you leave. It's like Puff the Magic Dragon or something. Like they're waiting for you at the cave. And then there's this sort of feeling of, like, wanting to. It's almost like you have a bunch of girlfriends that you're stringing along in some way. Not really, but, like, it's. And it's not. Again, I don't have some. Like, I don't have an agenda, but it's sort of like I feel like I've dropped. Like, there's a lot of people where I'm like, you know, like. Like I've done that. Where I, like, showcase a certain person's talent. And then you move on to other people, and then they're left feeling like you. Yeah, you. You walked away from. I don't know. I guess it's like this, you know, I. Maybe it's because I'm just more neurotic or something. I just, like, feel safer. Not. It's just like I hate letting people down.

[Interviewer]

Same.

[Mike White]

And it weighs on me sometimes.

[Interviewer]

Same.

[Mike White]

So it's almost like I won't do this anymore. And then. Then. Then it's like, all fair and free and whatever. I mean. But I do think that there's something beautiful about the relationship. And you're also in the. Yeah. It doesn't have to be some kind of heavy trip.

[Interviewer]

Did you Ever pitch a TV series before White Lotus?

[Mike White]

I started on TV shows, so the first show I ever worked on was the show Dawson's Creek. And then I did Freaks and Geeks with Judd Apatow, and then I started creating my own shows. But, like, I.

[Interviewer]

You worked on Dawson Creek. Was that as a writer?

[Mike White]

Yeah, I was a writer.

[Interviewer]

So was it in a writer's room or did you write by yourself?

[Mike White]

There was more writers around. But the nature of that show, like Freaks and Geeks that I did with Judd, that was more of a writer's room. People, like, pitch on stuff, but with that show, you just kind of write on your own and then come together and, you know. But I. I was never somebody who liked to write with other people or liked writers rooms or. Or that stuff. And then I. I did a show or I was like, somebody was very fast. I was always like, fast. But, like, I did a show where I basically had a nervous breakdown. And I was like. I was like. It was just too much. So I had like, a mental breakdown. I was put in a hospital, which I escaped from. And like, it was like, that was.

[Interviewer]

The show where that really happened.

[Mike White]

That really happened.

[Interviewer]

I see.

[Mike White]

So, yeah, it was kind of dramatic. And so I was just, like, very afraid to go back and do TV again because I just was. It was just the pressure of. It was too much for me.

[Interviewer]

Just because of the schedule.

[Mike White]

Just because they've hate. You know, like, it was like one of those things where, like, I was like, you know, it was like Molly Shannon, Jason Schwarzman, and like, I had all my buddies doing it. And like, the network hated what I was doing. And it was just like the work was just already itself was so hellish. Just like, the amount of work was so much. Just from the way I work. Cause I try to write it all and do it all myself.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Mike White]

And then just also the fighting. So it was like I was, you know, the work itself.

[Interviewer]

So the fighting wasn't about the work, but it was to get the work out.

[Mike White]

No, it was about the work. So, like, it was hard enough for me to just do all the work. But then it was like a network that had been. It was like Fox. They had gone from, like, being Married with Children, like rowdy bad kids network to American Idol at the time. And it was like suddenly they were getting 30 million views, you know, viewers an episode, and they wanted you to retain those viewers. So they were having an identity crisis in their. So, like, they were. They went from being. Cause I was this, like, you know, kind of provocative indie guy that they had hired to do. And then they suddenly wanted, like, a family show that they could retain. And I was just like, I'm not.

[Interviewer]

That's not what you do.

[Mike White]

I can't pivot. I'm not good at that. I don't know what you think I can do. I can't do this. So I. So, yeah, so it was just, like, classic case of them telling me, this is what the audience wants. And then they tested both the show that I had done and then the show that I had, like, this. Like, this freaking Frankenstein show that I had, like, it had turned into, because I, like, you know, I was young and giving in on stuff. And then the original show tested great and the other. And I'm like, you guys didn't even. You guys don't even know what you're doing. And so, like, I sent the email you're not supposed to send. I sent it to. I resented Brad. I'm sending everybody, like, the head of the agencies. I was just like. I was, like, trying to get fired. And instead of getting fired, they, like, Gail's in her office. Like, the head of the network's in her office. She's crying, and we need the script for tomorrow. And we're like, ah, wow. And so I went to some shrink, and I was like, like, he's like, are you having suicidal idea? And I'm like, well, I mean, yeah, I want to throw myself in front of a bus, but, like, that's not new. That's. I mean, and then I'm, like, literally being checked into a mental hospital where, like, I wouldn't have my own room. And, you know, it was just like.

[Interviewer]

It was.

[Mike White]

And I was like, this is insane. So, like, I'm like, fuck this. I'm running to the car. They're like, you get the help you need. And they're, like, chasing me through the thing. I'm, like, getting in my car. I'm driving on the freeway, and, like, the shrink has called the office and was like, mike's not coming in. He's gonna get the help he need. Like, they basically tell him I'm in a mental institution. Wow. And some other guy had just committed suicide writing a Mr. Ed. Like, we for the same people. So they thought that they were, like, killing writers with their notes. So, yeah, I was driving on the freeway, and then I have, like, 15 messages, and there's all these executives and, like, producers that are crying on the phone, thinking I'm in a men, you know, like. And they're like, And I was on my way back to work because I didn't know where else to go. And I was just like, oh, okay, I've shit the bed. I should totally shit the bed. And then the show got canceled. It was like a lesson of like, I'm not really made for that kind of stress. Like some people, like Judd for example, was somebody I saw and he was, he went through stress. Like I saw him stressed but like he was good at like just, you know, pushing back and being a bitch back and like, you know, I mean like it was like he knew his worth. I mean he knew what to say. I don't know how he knew, but like he knew how to like, like fight and like I, I would fight and I would just fall apart, you know, I just couldn't. I was just not somebody who's like, could do the creative job and also fight like all that time. You know what I mean?

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Mike White]

So it's like it's taken me a longer time to be in a situation where I could just do the job and not have to fight. You know what I mean?

[Interviewer]

And you're there now.

[Mike White]

Yeah. With this like show, like, and you know, HBO in general. I did another show with them called Enlightened with Lauren Dern. Like, like it was like where I. Yeah, they left. You believed me in me and they saw what I could bring and they accept me.

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[Mike White]

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[Interviewer]

What's the first time you ever performed in anything?

[Mike White]

Well, I did it when I was in college because I was, I was, I'm really A writer. I really see myself as a writer. But. But like sometimes I would write stuff and I would sit there and watch it and I'd just be like, I can't. And so I was like, oh, I'll just be in it. And then I don't have to sit there passively. And so I would act sometimes in stuff that I'd written in college.

[Interviewer]

Did you write it knowing it was for you to perform or no?

[Mike White]

Sometimes. Sometimes I'd be like, oh, I'll do this. And then when I did movies, it was like I didn't really want to be like the lead, but I was just like, it'll give me something to do so I'm not sitting behind the director and being like, eh.

[Interviewer]

Have you ever acted in anything that you didn't write?

[Mike White]

Yeah, I have. Just like as friends, you know, favors to friends and stuff. But that's fun or. No, it's fun to interact that way. But I. It's such a different kind of vibe, you know, writing and especially being like the mastermind of the thing, you know, you always are like you need to stay on point or else it's like you're failing everyone. You got to just like make it as good as you can make it. And acting is like letting go and like giving, you know, like giving into something, you know, it's kind of more of a like free spirited thing that I feel like I can tap into and have fun with. But I also. It's less compelling to me lately I guess.

[Interviewer]

How is writing a second season different than writing a first season?

[Mike White]

I've never really done it more than two seasons because I'm, you know, I have this like, like I talked about earlier, which is like I'm a novelty freak and I like to feel like I'm doing something new. So like idea of like going back to the same thing over and over, like sounds like hell. But like with this show, it's an anthology, so it's totally new actors, completely new loc location, new. So like that part of it, it's like. But then the themes can kind of like interplay with each other and kind of feel more textured and it can develop over. So like that part of it is clutch. I love that. So like that's cool. Yeah. So I'm happy with this gig and would like to keep doing it as.

[Interviewer]

Long as it seems like you found a format that suits you.

[Mike White]

Yeah, it's perfect. It's perfect for me. But yeah. You asked me about reality shows.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, tell me about it.

[Mike White]

You don't see the pleasure in going on a reality show. A reality game show. Starving on an island. Do you ever see Survivor?

[Interviewer]

I've never seen it.

[Mike White]

You've never seen Survivor?

[Interviewer]

I've never seen any reality show.

[Mike White]

You've never seen a reality show?

[Interviewer]

No. Tell me, what was your. What was the thought?

[Mike White]

Well, I don't know. It's hard to explain to somebody who doesn't really even see any of the pleasure of it. But, like, I. But like, I. Survivor is just a great. It's a classic show. Yeah. If it wasn't a TV show, would I do it?

[Interviewer]

Would you do the same thing?

[Mike White]

Oh, no.

[Interviewer]

In the same competition, Everything was the same, except there's no cameras.

[Mike White]

Well, I would definitely do like the Amazing Race I did. Which is like a scavenger hunt around the world. Hell, yeah, I'd do that. And I want to do that film or not. Yeah, I would do that just to do it. And it's like I've. I've actually tried to. I mean, I haven't done it yet, but I'm in the process of, like, I want to organize a tuk tuk race across Sri Lanka with your friends. You can, like, get all the things and, like, it's like a scavenger. I mean, you go different places and it's. It's. I mean, yeah, it'd be so fun. And I've done that where I've, like, hosted and, like, scavenger hunts around la and like, you go all balls to the wall and that's fun. But Survivor, I don't know. Survivor is more. It's very punitive. I mean, you're starving. I don't know if I would suffer like that if there weren't cameras. Like, I feel like the cameras. No, they. I think that cameras give you life. You know what I mean? You're like. Because then it's like you're suffering for America. You're suffering. Like, it's like, I think to suffer in alone, anonymously, like, that's suffering. In fact, on Survivor, you suffer before the show starts because they have like a week where you're on, you know, you're under this lockdown where they're doing all of these different kinds of, like, you have to go through this process and there are no cameras. And I hated that anytime that there weren't the cameras around, I was hating it because it was like, you're stuck in this like. Like before, like, so they have Tribal Council, you vote people out, whatever. But then before the Tribal Council, you're in this tent, and there's like a PA There telling you not to talk to each other, and you're sitting in the mud, and there is no camera, and you're just like, this is sucks. But then you go to the travel council, there's cameras, and you vote someone out, and it's dramatic and it's. I'm like, this is fun.

[Interviewer]

Because you feel like it's showbiz.

[Mike White]

No, it's just like. It's like part of the. Yeah, maybe just because it's. I mean. Yeah. Well, one, I'm a fan of the show, and you know that you're part of this thing, and so that's funny. It's just funny. I don't know. It's just funny. But, like, when you're sitting just waiting to go on, and you're in the dirt and you're starving and you got shit in your mouth, and, like, this fucking PA who's 22 is telling you to shut up, you're just like, fuck this. But, you know, I don't know if I could do it again. I've been. I just. They just did a 50th anniversary. It's like the 50th season, and I. They brought me back to come, and I. I just did it in the summer, and it was hell. The whole thing was hell. It was like, literally every second of it was hellish. It was so hellish. So I don't know if I could ever do it again, but I'm still a fan.

[Interviewer]

Are most of the other people on the show people that you know from something else or.

[Mike White]

No, no, none of them. I mean, none. It's. It's just. It's just people. And actually, that's why I didn't like it as much this time, because the first season you. I went through, it was like a truck driver from Texas. It was people from all walks of life who'd never been in that experience before. And you're going through it with them. There's something very bonding about that. And it's very. It is a lot of drama. You know, 39 days, starving, you know, like, I lost 27 pounds. You're, like, going through all these things. You know, you're crying. You're like. It's emotional. It's like. It's like a big deal. And then the next time you go and you're going with a bunch of people who are now reality contestants who, like, have, like, kind of worked on their Persona through. I mean, they are. They started as truck drivers, but now they're like the. You know, people they bring. Yeah, they're influencers. And so. And also, you've been there, you've done it before. It feels a little more canned. So it's just. That's just the nature of the beast. But. So, yeah, but I. But I was just like, 50th anniversary. I don't know. That's something I just. I was like, I should just do it. And also, at the time, I was like, oh, White Lotus. It did sort of become this, like, phenomenon. It was like. It was just a lot like. And I was like, I don't want to be. I don't deal with that right now. I was like, I'll go somewhere and, like, skulk away and be, like, just one of a bunch of people on an island. But I realized I couldn't. You know, it was like. It was like. I got there and it was like, there's a press junket. Before, it was like all these things that I had this fantasy of what it was gonna. How I was gonna be able to get away from this person that I was trying to run away from. And I was like, oh, no, this person is here. And now I'm starving. Now it's just that person, and I'm starving. I like competing. I'm competitive. I like. Yeah, novelty.

[Interviewer]

Are you a gambler?

[Mike White]

Not really. I don't. Yeah. Because I don't like losing money, but I'm competitive in the sense of, like. I don't know. Like, it's like. It's a very king's court. You know what I mean? It's like. It's real, like. Yeah, it's like a king's court of, like, personalities. Like, it's a pagan playground of these different, like, personality types that are all trying to, like.

[Interviewer]

Is it a popularity contest in some way?

[Mike White]

Yeah, I mean, it's more like the person who wins is the person who. It's like. It's really about influencing other people. It's like, who. How can you get what you want when everybody wants the same thing? And, like. And it's really about getting other people to do what you want them to do. And they're all people who want to do their own thing. So it's a. It's like a. It's a war of wills, basically. It's classically a very interesting show to watch because when it first came out, you had these different sort of archetypal people that you, you know, like, they kind of cast it for, like, you know, the crotchety female Truck driver. The like the vixen who's like the bathing suit model and like all these. From these different. And they're, they all want the same thing and they're all eating each other until one person is left. I don't know. I just like surviving like musical chairs. I used to like musical chairs. Like you'd be the last person to have a chair or like dodgeball where you throw the ball until there was just one person left. I don't know. Something about. I guess it's like maybe it's because my mom had all these miscarriages and I was a baby who was like trying to survive. You're the one who made it. The one that made it. I'm like, like when that Survivor first showed up, I was just like, this is, is the show. This is like surviving. Surviving other people.

[Interviewer]

And you wrote a movie that was wrestling theme.

[Mike White]

Yeah. Nacho Libre.

[Interviewer]

Tell me about that. How did it come to be?

[Mike White]

Well, the director is the guy who'd made Napoleon Dynamite. Jared Hess is one of the great.

[Interviewer]

I love that movie.

[Mike White]

Yeah, he's an amazing guy. He's such a nice guy. And his wife, they're both super cool. And so they had this idea to do a wrestling movie with Jack. Jack Black and I had a company together for a while and Jack's also an amazing guy. And so, you know, Jared was a Mormon and he had done his mission in I think Ecuador, I don't know, somewhere in the South America. He spoke Spanish and he just wanted to go back there and do a luchador movie. And I was like, that sounds. That's like right on my out. You're shooting in Mexico and Jack was down there and we just had a blast. It was probably the most fun I've ever had on a set. It was just so much fun.

[Interviewer]

How much do you know before you start writing?

[Mike White]

Well, I don't really write anything that's like I'm a kind of know nothing guy. I don't know. It's like I, I try to like, for me it's more about feeling my way in and like I don't need to be story.

[Interviewer]

Do you know the whole story before you start writing?

[Mike White]

I, I usually know where it's going and, and I try, I like try to like get you. Yeah. Vibe out the characters and, and that part is the funnest part to me honestly is the gestating is like, you know, where you're lying there. Oh, this is an idea. Da da, da da. And like the, like the jesting before the writing is super fun. And I like to try to stay, keep myself from writing until it's just like the baby is ready to be born.

[Interviewer]

Do you mean the writing part happens quickly?

[Mike White]

Yeah, it goes like. It's like. And. And this is the problem now is that, like, I. Because the show is eight episodes, it's like. So I, like, I just went through a pewter. I was like, writing 450 pages of stuff in three, two and a half months.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Mike White]

And so I have a sprinter's approach, and sometimes it's a marathon and I go a little cuckoo because it's like, I just finished. I'm completely spent. It's like I've had my finger in the electric socket and I'm just like. So I need to just get my head on straight.

[Interviewer]

Do you play all of the different characters when you're writing?

[Mike White]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Do you ever say things out loud or. No.

[Mike White]

Yeah, all the time. It's like I write it until I hear it. So I don't know if I'm actually saying it, but it's. That's being said in my head. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And if something funny happens, do you laugh?

[Mike White]

I hope so. Totally. I mean, if something sad happens, I cry.

[Interviewer]

But when you write something sad, you'll cry. And when you write something funny, you'll laugh if you're alone in the room.

[Mike White]

I mean, some things. Yeah. If. If I'm laughing, I don't know if it's always funny to other people, but it is funny to me. So, like. And I'm. And I definitely come from the place of, like, I'm trying to, like, get myself off.

[Interviewer]

Off.

[Mike White]

And I'm writing for those moments where I'm getting off.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, you're entertaining yourself.

[Mike White]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Great. All the best things happen that way. Okay, I'm going to read a list to you, and I want you to prioritize it. There's five things on the list. Characters, dialogue, story, setting. Philosophy.

[Mike White]

Huh. I think character first. And, you know, philosophy. I personally, like. I like to organize things based on philosophical concepts. Like, I think philosophical concepts get me excited. So character and philosophical concepts. Kind of sometimes like, both, number one. Well, they. They go hand in hand. Like, the characters come out of philosophical ideas is.

[Interviewer]

So philosophy might even come first.

[Mike White]

Yeah. It's just sort of like, what am I trying to get at? And then I'll build a character that sort of helps me get at that. So. Yeah, you can't have one without the other, I guess, at least with this kind of stuff that I'm doing. So I would say they're both one. And then dialogue, what is it? Setting, Story.

[Interviewer]

Dialogue. Story and setting are the three levels.

[Mike White]

The story I think is probably the next because I think that that's like story is the playing out of these ideas, you know, and then the dialogue would be next. In a weird way, dialogue is probably more my strength than the other things. So like that's, it's just, it is what it is. And then setting is last. Last.

[Interviewer]

What are your favorite films of all time?

[Mike White]

Well, it's funny, we go, I go back to like what were the ones that got me excited about storytelling? I mean like the post sign adventure. If I watch it now I'd probably be like. But like there's something about it that. And that's also a Survivor show. Like it's like. Did you ever watch the Poseidon Adventure?

[Interviewer]

I did.

[Mike White]

Do you remember there?

[Interviewer]

I've seen all the Irwin Allen movies.

[Mike White]

There was a poster that was like who will live and who will die? And it was like, you know, like six of them died and six of them lived.

[Interviewer]

Do you remember Inferno was another one.

[Mike White]

Yeah, exactly. And so like this idea of like you don't know who's going to live and who's going to die. And then I was into that. I don't know if that's really effective. Like I don't know. Although Survivor, what do we call it? White Lotus, this, whatever it is. It's a little bit like that. Like who's going to die? Like who's going to live and who's going to die.

[Interviewer]

I think seeing Poseidon Adventure many times as a young person made you like this.

[Mike White]

Yeah. Am I like, was I excited about that? Like would I inevitably be excited by those, by something whether Poseidon Adventure existed or not?

[Interviewer]

Yeah. What do you think?

[Mike White]

I think it's a collective. I mean it's like this is. I don't know why you're, you know, I'm sure with music it's like you have an orientation but then some things capture your imagination and then the appropriative.

[Interviewer]

If they weren't there, I know I wouldn't be the same.

[Mike White]

Yeah. I wouldn't have the same maybe format to have reveries on those kinds of things. So like I do think it's, it changed me. And also watching it like on repeat, like I'm sure there was music you just listened to over and over and like and you know what I mean, it was like so like all of the storytelling mechanisms just got ingrained inside your brain, you know.

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[Interviewer]

How is writing a theatrical play different than writing for television?

[Mike White]

I mean, I wrote plays when I was in college, but I haven't really done it since, so. But I mean, the thing is, what's cool is like, it's like being in the. It's like, what's the difference between performing live and performing, like, having, you know, producing a record? It's like there's so many things you can control, so many things you can excise, you can just, you know, guide the viewer, the audience in a way that you can in a live thing. And so I.

[Interviewer]

Would it make it harder, you think, to write theater because of that?

[Mike White]

I just, it's like, I think that for me, like, this is so sweet to be able to have this kind of audience and to, you know, I think live theater is exciting for performers and stuff, but like, as for a writer, I feel like, you know, and then being able to really like, manage the material in the way that I can as a. As a producer, just, it's preferable to me.

[Interviewer]

Me. Would you say you're a control freak?

[Mike White]

I'm a control freak in the sense of certain. Like, I don't like being under someone else's. Like, I don't. I don't. I don't want the mistakes to be mine. Yeah, I'm not OCD anymore. I'm not a perfectionist. I. I hate to say it.

[Interviewer]

How did that happen?

[Mike White]

What's the cliche? Is like, perfectionism is the. Is the enemy of productivity. You know, I mean, like, it's like, like I realized early on if I was gonna be so niggly and like. Like, I'm going to get bogged down. And it's like. And it also made me sort of miserable. You know what I mean? I feel like I want to be light hearted. I want to be able to create and feel proud of it, but also kind of like not be an ogre.

[Interviewer]

Also, maybe the more that you do, you realize what is and isn't important.

[Mike White]

Yes, and also. Yeah, exactly. And also there's certain things where you realize as, you know, as someone who is really into the collaboration that, like letting go of feeling, feeling ownership of everything and realizing other people are bringing stuff to it and it gives it more variety of expression. And so that comes with security over time, a security of self and not being such a, you know, stingy bitch.

[Interviewer]

Can you remember any creative breakthroughs for you that have happened over the years?

[Mike White]

Well, I've learned from everybody and I've learned from even things that weren't. Yeah, from failures and. And like, you know, I would talk about Judd doing Freaks and Geeks and he was. Had this, you know, he was a very. He's very anal expulsive. Like, just throw the shit on the wall, you know, and see what sticks. And like, and is not precious about it. He. In a way, he workshops everything. He goes through the process, like a studio almost where, you know, he watches what people like and what, you know, and so he's canvassing. And I was always having this kind of authorial pride of, like, this is my intention that, you know, like, kind of feeling like I was on defense of any kind of influence or something, you know, like, I was always, like, more rigid. And so, like, working with him was helpful to like, I. I'll never be him and I'll never do it that way, but like. But to like, let go of some kinds of, you know, uppity shit that I had.

[Interviewer]

Tell me more about your parents.

[Mike White]

Well, my dad was a minister and religious.

[Interviewer]

But you see him when he would speak.

[Mike White]

Yeah, we. I was, you know, I was a minister's son. So like every Sunday we would, you know, because he was like, that was our church. So. So. Yeah, so he's an intense guy. And he was, you know, my parents are. Do you ever get into the Enneagram?

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Mike White]

Okay. So, like, I'm a seven, which is like. Like seven is like an enthusiast, but like, kind of in dreamers. And like, my. My parents are both. They both live in these dream worlds. Like, they live. They're dreamers. They're. My dad is like a dreamer of, like, Christian Theology and Bible stories and, you know, like. And, like. And justice, social justice.

[Interviewer]

And my mom grow up in it as well.

[Mike White]

Yeah, his parents were. Yeah. Very religious, and they kind of groomed him be the next Billy Graham. And he wrote all these, like, you know, religious books with, like, all of these, like, big, you know, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson and Jim and Tammy Baker and stuff. So, yeah, they're both, you know, like, on Survivor, I realized, like, I'm not good in material reality. I don't know how to do. I don't know how to. I'm useless. I'm a useless person when it comes to the material world. And it's like I was raised by these dreamers who lived in the dreamlands. I'm like. I'm literally out like a Christian Tennessee Williams player or something. So, like, it's like I. So, like, they're both beautiful people and they live in these beautiful dreams and.

[Interviewer]

And your mom was a believer as well.

[Mike White]

She's a Christian, but, like, was just like, somebody who made umbrellas for fairies and, like. Like, when she was like. And like, always just sees this, like, lives in this kind of rainbow land of, like, she sees the good in everybody. And, like, and. And kind of just. I don't know, like. Yeah, they're. They're interesting people. And only now, as I'm older, do I realize, like, how much I'm. Yeah, just a product of these two beautiful, dreamy people. Not, you know, like, they have cool spirits.

[Interviewer]

Do you think everything you write is biographical?

[Mike White]

Yeah, I definitely feel like things that don't come from inside you. I don't know how you'd write it. You know what I mean? And I guess my goal in life is to, like, be large enough to have a large canvas inside me. Know.

[Interviewer]

When you're writing, do you picture the characters physically? Like, do you see them?

[Mike White]

It's more. I hear them because I don't know who else. Also, I mean, sometimes I'll write like, I wrote for Jennifer Coolidge for the show or Jack Black. I wrote a bunch of stuff for him. So I see them and I hear their voice. But in general, since I don't always know who's going to be it, it's.

[Interviewer]

But you don't picture, like, someone like this, like an archetype or. Do you?

[Mike White]

Yeah, I mean, when you have casting, which I'm doing right now for the next season, someone will show up and I'll be like, yeah, this looks like the face that I see in my head.

[Interviewer]

And is it always matching Something that you already thought when you're casting or is it ever. Wow. I never thought of it like that. But that's even better.

[Mike White]

Totally, totally. 100%. And sometimes somebody will come along. I'll think. Let me think of an example. Like, Parker Posey was an actress that was in the last season, and the way this part was written was written as this kind of like, prim Southern matriarch or whatever. And then Parker Posey comes in with this just, like, totally different kind of energy and, like, hilarious and so, like, it. Yeah, it just. I mean, that's the part of, like, where, you know, time and experience. Like, I'm like, okay, let's capture. Let's let Parker be Parker and figure out how to make her shine, you know, and, like. And step away from some of those preconceived things that I need. You know, some stuff I need. I need it to do for the story. But, like, other places, like, let's let her just be her. You know.

[Interviewer]

How about ad libbing?

[Mike White]

Yeah, I'm. I'm. You know, I came up with Judd and Jack and all those people, so I'm. You know, it's like. It's like a combination. Like, I want to feel like I have a reason for the things that I put in there, but then, you know, we get a version of that and then we play around with it.

[Interviewer]

What's essential for a character to exist?

[Mike White]

I mean, some characters are the. You know, if it's the person going through the story, then they need to have, you know, a dimension and a purpose that's deeper. And then, you know, the other characters are there to as orchestration. In a sense. It's like you have your main song and then you have these different things to be counterpoint or to be a foil or to be the jester to that. You know what I mean? The different. Different people that. So usually it's like each story has this kind of centerpiece character idea for me, and then the other characters are there to create the dynamism that you want for a story.

[Interviewer]

Do you have any kind of rules for yourself about, like, you, like, having a certain number of characters?

[Mike White]

Yeah, I mean, I think it's like with White Lotus, for example, I. I think the gestating part is like you're trying to figure out how many characters you need in order to have enough material and event and drama. And I guess I like to be economical, so I want to have the least amount that I can have whilst so that everyone. I like a chamber piece. I like to feel like I'm being very conservative and so that everybody. There's like real sort of shifts for everything. And it, like, you have your own. You have a more of a relationship to the work. You know, it's like. It's like a chef, you know, it's like you want to have a little bit of this kind of flavor. You want a little bit of this flavor. If it's. To this, it's too simple. If it's too this, it's too, you know, crazy. You know, I mean, it's like you're just going for that, like, perfect little.

[Interviewer]

I don't know.

[Mike White]

And whether you, you know, other people see it. But that for you, that's like the thing that. It's like you want to get. Get that perfect mix of flavor and texture and stuff.

[Interviewer]

Does everything need to make sense?

[Mike White]

No. I mean, and that's the thing. It's like I, you know, I grew up with a dad who wrote sermons and that everything was this kind of like, you know, it's like, you know, had. It had a dogmatic quality or. Or. Or there's like a. Yeah, there's a lesson. There's a. It's like, always bringing you to the water to drink. You know what I mean? And so, like, I kind of came from that world where like. Like I said, like, philosophy, like, inspires me. But then at some point you also, like, you know, great art. Sometimes it's just like the. Just the vividness of it or just the weirdness or the surprise of it that, like, stays with you. And so, like. And you think of dreams that you have where it's like, you know, it doesn't all come together, but it has these elements that are just like, you know, that linger in the mind. And so that part of it is. You want to be able to have enough space so that it doesn't feel like it's such a closed circle.

[Interviewer]

Any rules about story structure that you follow or.

[Mike White]

No, that's a big thing to unpack. I mean, I like counterpoint, and I like characters that start and then they become their almost their opposites. And. I don't know, there's certain pleasures of drama that I find to be something I always tend to respond to.

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[Interviewer]

How do you know when something you write is good?

[Mike White]

Good?

[Interviewer]

What's the feeling?

[Mike White]

I mean, I'm sure it's the same with you. It's just like when you get excited and like when you're like, no one can tell me that this isn't good. Like, whether it's good or not, like, nobody can tell me and I will, it will knock me off this perch. Do you, I mean, where you're just like, you feel it, you're like this is gonna be. And like because you know, you get so many, you know, especially in, you know, it's so expensive, this thing and like there's so much money involved and there's so many collaborators. It's, it's like, you know, you have dozens of actors. You know, so many people have opinions and it's like you really, it's like those are your north stars or those things where you're just like, this is going to be funny. I believe in this little thing and like, it kind of anchors you in the process.

[Interviewer]

When you write something funny, do you have someone that you call up to tell it to?

[Mike White]

Yeah, I'm pretty private for somebody in this thing. So I don't, I like. And I've had the thing where I've had, had friends where you show them drought and you're just like, this isn't fair. Like, it's like. So I tried to, I have a very small, like I just go to HBO if you guys are okay, if, if all systems go, then I know over time, you know, dozens of people. But that early initial thing, I feel like I've, I've learned like not to. But yeah, there are, but with that said, like there's a couple people that I know I'm safe with that, like get it.

[Interviewer]

I'm not even saying share it with them to get feedback, but just more you're excited to.

[Mike White]

Yeah, you're excited.

[Interviewer]

Share the thing.

[Mike White]

I do. I, I'm sure there are. But I really don't have it. I don't do it that much because I'm, I'm, I'm. I tend to be kind of. I'm just, I'm not, I'm not extroverted in that way where I'm like. And I also feel like I lose some of the pleasure of the doing if I tell it. So.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, you don't want to give it away.

[Mike White]

I just want to like, hold that excited energy and use it to the work.

[Interviewer]

Do you think of yourself as spiritual?

[Mike White]

Yeah, totally. I mean, I feel like art is a spiritual enterprise.

[Interviewer]

You know, it's a non material, beyond the art piece. Do you have a spiritual practice?

[Mike White]

I consider myself a Western Buddhist in the sense of like I feel connected to the Buddhist, at least this sort of western version of the Buddhist concepts. Like if I'm not really reading the sutra, like, I, you know, it's like, like this idea of the non self and finding that through meditation and like, you know, like, and some of the stuff that we, we talked about before about past lives and all that. So like I, I feel like, yeah, I'm spiritual, but I also, I also feel like I'm strong. I have this feeling lately where I, I, you know, I'm from a religious background and I've seen people leave the church and then, you know, how they create their own religions. And I'm kind of, you know, especially as you get more success, you get, you get more successful and you're around other people that are successful and they feel like they've landed like I'm, I've landed on the, you know, like it's like where they're, I don't know, like, like I, like, I feel like I want to live in a place of unsurety because I feel like that's. Certain things work and certain things don't work. But like I like the idea of being, you know, kind of more, you know, it's like, like in a science mode of like I can have my mind changed about anything. Jimmy. Where like somebody could say, oh, this is like your, you know, like it's like. And not be too rigid about. Oh like the choices. Don't you feel like as you get older, like a lot of times people like the choices they've made. They have to be defensive about them and that like this is like the, this is the truth, you know what I mean? Or this is the best way. And, and like I also agree that everybody comes to their own. We all build our own heaven. You built your heaven here, you know. What I mean, but I like this feeling of being still in a. Like, I haven't landed on the plant. You know what I mean? I. I don't know. Like, it's like, okay to not know and be. Be, you know, modest about what I really know.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's beautiful. Same. I. I don't feel like I know anything.

[Mike White]

Yeah. And I like to be in situations like, you know, you go on Survivor, as silly as it is, and be around all these other people who are living such different lives than you, and you realize, like, oh, yeah, there's a whole. Like, I don't know everything, you know? I mean, I'm the king of this little castle, but I'm just a little. It's just a little. It's the littlest of castles.

[Interviewer]

How did you learn to direct?

[Mike White]

I don't know if I still know how to direct. I mean, basically. I mean, I had a. I mean, like, I think some people would say I don't know how to direct. I don't. I, like. I basically, you know, like, I really don't know much about cameras. It's funny, because I'm going to France, and it's like, I've learned French over the years multiple times. I learned in high school. I went to Montreal. It's like. And I feel like I'm, Like, I'm starting over again. And like, every time I go onto a set and it's like. And like, we're talking about shots and stuff, I'm like, I. I've been doing this for decades now, but I'm like. I feel like I'm like, do I even know what I'm talking about? Like, I don't. You know, it's like every time I feel like I am learning it again. And, like, with each actor, you learn it again. And with each person, it's like each thing is its own. It's like, what I know is the work. You know what I mean? What I know is what I. Is the writer that came, concocted this vision, and then now I'm, like, working with these designers who know a lot more than me about how to, like, get me to the promised land. But I do feel, as a director, I feel like I'm just kind of like, I just have access to the writer in a way that's. That is. I have a. That's my way in, I guess.

[Interviewer]

Tell me something you learned from your father.

[Mike White]

What I learned from my father is gonna. This probably make me emotional.

[Sponsor Voiceover 1]

But. But.

[Mike White]

You know, my dad, he was from this religious upbringing. And he, you know, he wanted to save people's souls. And there's something beautiful. There's something obnoxious about, you know, the missionary who is coming in and thinks that they know better than everyone else and is telling him. But there's also something beautiful about seeing each person as a soul who is worthy of saving, you know, and that each person is a child of God. So I think that there's something very, yes, obviously spiritual, but also, yeah, of service to each person and that you can see Jesus in each person, and that. That was something that he taught me, you know, so that's a compassion that is. Is really a deep source of self, you know, where you feel like you're not better than anybody else.

[Interviewer]

You.

[Mike White]

You. You have to be of service to each person. And each person. And each person is a. Is a divine self, you know, so if my dad's older, I get emotional, but, like, that's. Yeah, that was like an essential thing. That was the first thing I ever felt like I was. I learned. And you. It's, you know, I. I want to live up to that, you know.

[Interviewer]

Sounds like an incredible gift. Amazing. Where'd you grow up?

[Mike White]

Grew up in Pasadena, like the foothills of the mountains in the. In canyon.

[Interviewer]

What was childhood like there?

[Mike White]

It was cool. It was. I mean, it was nice. I mean, it was a different time, you know, Like, I. I was up in the foothills and there wasn't a lot going on, so it was. It was allowed me to have a lot of time to introspect and be the weird kid that I was. And. And yeah, it's. I thank God every day that I wasn't born in this time of all of this easy distractions, you know, you had to go out and find it. You know, you really had to work for it and. But, yeah, I just thank God had I been born now, how many things I wouldn't have come to or done or. I don't know. I really feel for these kids. I mean, sure, they're fine, but. Yeah, there's nothing like being totally unable to connect with, you know, I mean, having to really go out and find the culture is a hero's journey, in a way.

[Sponsor Voiceover 1]

Technogram.

[Interviewer]

Technogram.

[Mike White]

Tetragrammatin is a podcast. Tetragrammatin is a website. Tetragrammaton is a whole world of knowledge.

[Podcast Host]

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