Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin

Guest: Mollie Engelhart
Date: October 22, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode of Tetragrammaton features a candid, sprawling conversation between Rick Rubin and chef, farmer, and activist Mollie Engelhart. The dialogue journeys through Mollie's unique trajectory—her upbringing in a countercultural, health-driven family, the rise and evolution of her celebrated vegan restaurant Sage, her transformation into a regenerative farmer, philosophical and societal controversies, and her ultimate relocation from California to Texas. The episode touches deeply on cancel culture, the realities and illusions of veganism, the spiritual and practical lessons from farming, and her advocacy for a more honest, nature-connected approach to food, community, and life.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Vegan Identity, Family Scandal, and Cancel Culture

[00:08–07:47] Mollie narrates how an innocuous family moment—her father eating a home-raised hamburger—went viral, unleashing accusations of hypocrisy and drawing protests and boycotts to both Sage and Café Gratitude.
- Quote:
  
  “...My dad loves his cows. Loves his cows. And so once the meat was in the freezer, he had this thought... I feel like this cow would want me to eat her. I feel like she would want her life essence to go into my life essence.” — Mollie, 03:20
- The fallout lasted 18 months, prompting Mollie to confront how rigid ideologies and cancel culture can undermine nuance, community, and personal relationships.
- Notable insight: Veganism’s culture of purity can foster exclusion and aggression, which echoed in other cancel culture episodes, such as around COVID.
[05:10–07:47] Rick synthesizes the absurdity: that one personal choice (her father eating a burger) led to business-wide condemnation.
- Quote:
  
  “Your dad chooses to eat a burger. That doesn’t impact what the restaurant does... and your father’s personal choice is enough for the people who eat at the restaurant to turn on the restaurant.” — Rick, 05:10

2. Regenerative Agriculture: Personal Awakening

[07:47–18:35] Mollie traces her shift from vegan idealism to regenerative farming:
- Garden experiments, social media revelations, and a pivotal encounter with Graham Sait’s science-based optimism on carbon cycling sparked genuine hope for planetary healing.
- Early experiments—integrating animals into her farm for composting—undermined her “purely vegan” aspirations, leading her to realize the inseparability of death from agriculture.
- Quote:
  
  “You start to realize that there’s death in every bite of food, whether you see it on the plate or not. And that was really around 2018, 2019, that I had that full awakening. That was the beginning of the end of me being indoctrinated in the vegan conversation.” — Mollie, 14:28
She still doesn’t eat red meat, but now consumes raw dairy, bone broth, and eggs, and applies a practical, non-dogmatic perspective to diet and health.

3. Origins: From Recording Studios to Restaurants

[20:10–32:45] Mollie’s origin story is shaped by abrupt changes:
- From running a recording studio wiped out by digital music, to a successful stint in marijuana cultivation, and a series of financial crashes.
- She eventually developed vegan ice cream, partnering (sometimes naively) with others to launch Sage. Her commitment to integrity—ingredient honesty, ethical business—clashed with business partners, but led to her owning and fundamentally shaping Sage.
- Quote:
  
  “Sometimes...even when a relationship feels painful or disrespectful or not ideal, there’s something so beautiful on the other side. And you just have to trust that God has a plan and you can’t see all the moving parts.” — Mollie, 31:50
Sage’s expansion included partnerships with celebrities (Woody Harrelson, Jason Mraz), but ultimately presented financial, personal, and philosophical challenges as LA’s culture and her own values evolved.

4. Food Culture Legacies: Café Gratitude and Family Dynamics

[36:16–47:42] Deep dive into Cafe Gratitude, founded by Mollie’s father:
- Originated from Landmark Forum principles, with a unique model where affirmations (“I am beautiful,” “I am nourished”) were built into the menu and culture.
- The LA version became status-seeking, a far cry from the ragtag inclusivity of the original Mission district restaurant.
- Mollie discusses the competitive-yet-loving dynamic with her father, their daily “sales report” calls, and how adversity in business deepened their familial bonds.
- Quote:
  
  “We pray to the God of comfort in so many ways and convenience in our culture. I think it was brave to have a restaurant that says, like, we’re going to actually do something, it’s going to make people a little uncomfortable. And…but we believe that that is making a difference.” — Mollie, 45:13

5. Post-Pandemic Reality and Move to Texas

[51:57–60:53] COVID’s aftershocks ravaged restaurant culture:
- LA’s pandemic policies destroyed restaurant rhythms—family dinners, date nights—and reshaped eating habits.
- Financial and regulatory burdens forced Mollie to sell her California farm and relocate to Texas, with the move ultimately made possible by a timely wire transfer from Kanye West for farm consulting.
- Quote:
  
  “I have this thought, ‘God, please, I’m sorry to ask, but I need you to drop a pile of money on me.”...in the middle of the night, my phone bing, and it’s Kanye West.” — Mollie, 55:24

6. Faith, Nature, and Parenthood

[60:53–73:37] Mollie reflects on spirituality, motherhood, and nature’s lessons:
- Relates a powerful mushroom-induced vision that shifted her from “pro-choice” to “pro-life.”
- Her experience with loss, unconventional marriage, and raising a multi-generational, multicultural family on the land, underscores her evolving priorities and faith.
- Quote:
  
  “I feel like the closer I get to nature, the closer I feel to God, and the more I realize that our ego and our desire for domination has us missing the most precious parts of life.” — Mollie, 61:11

7. Living Off the Land

[75:41–79:05] On growing, cooking, and valuing one’s food:
- The pride and mindfulness fostered by producing, preserving, and cooking one’s own harvest versus “thoughtlessly” wasting store-bought food.
- Tactile, spiritual, and practical rewards from living close to the land.

8. Regeneration versus Industrialization

[79:09–100:57] Explains nutrient density, water’s memory, and the five principles of regenerative agriculture (context, cover, biodiversity, no or less chemicals/tillage, and animal integration).
- Contrasts regenerative with organic or industrial models, emphasizing active partnership with nature for soil health.
- Shares collaboration with regenerative icon Joel Salatin, who wrote her book’s foreword.

9. Debunked by Nature: The Book

[101:00–109:37] Her new book interrogates societal lies by asking: “What does nature do?”—on topics like breastfeeding, co-sleeping, sex, gender, food, and more.
- Urges a turn away from culture wars and ideological divisions, and back toward nature-informed, pragmatic solutions.

10. Food Policy, Local Farms, and Consumer Power

[110:53–124:13] Outlines what works (and what doesn’t) with government subsidies, SNAP benefits, and the kinds of policies that could support both nutrition and small farmers.
- Praises recent state-level reforms in Iowa and Oklahoma, and discusses the importance of direct action: consumers supporting local farmers is the heart of real change.
- Spotlights her brother’s work on Kiss the Ground, Common Ground, and the push to center soil health in bipartisan politics.

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

On cancel culture in veganism:

“Vegans, I always say, were at the forefront of cancel culture...It’s grounded in an ideology that has no logic and people would at me.” — Mollie, 06:33
On the romanticism (and reality) of animal-free farming:

“All of what we call organic fertilizer is attached to so much death. So then I’m starting to wonder, is there vegan food?” — Mollie, 13:30
On breast milk and dairy:

“If my breast milk is God’s perfect food...why is Una’s milk filled with pus, disgusting and gonna cause cancer? That doesn’t make any sense. Why do I believe that?” — Mollie, 12:52
On money, self-worth, and priorities:

“That’s how the money slave system works...you just have to keep doing something that’s literally not necessarily even benefiting your life. Saving food for my family, that’s what I need to be doing.” — Mollie, 78:07
On the foundation of life and health:

“There’s so much life in this soil and the design is so perfect... your garden is so much more high tech than a solar panel.” — Mollie, 80:02
On policy changes and who wields power:

“If Molly was queen for a day...I would make SNAP benefits apply only to whole foods and foods that had less than eight ingredients.” — Mollie, 111:23

Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Topic/Quote | |------------|-----------------------------------------------------| | 00:08–07:47| Cafe Gratitude hamburger controversy, cancel culture | | 07:56 | The shift from veganism to regenerative thinking | | 14:28 | Realization that “death is in every bite of food” | | 20:13 | Music & marijuana—how financial crashes led to food | | 31:50 | Owning Sage, celebrity investors, business lessons | | 36:16 | Origin and culture of Café Gratitude | | 45:13 | On the discomfort and bravery of Café Gratitude | | 51:57 | COVID’s “never back to normal”: LA to Texas move | | 55:24 | Kanye West sends crucial wire transfer | | 61:11 | Faith and lessons from the land | | 75:49 | Joy, pride, and waste consciousness via homegrown food| | 80:02 | Soil as technology: nutrients, microbes, design | | 98:21 | Joel Salatin connection, regenerative advocacy | | 101:00 | Book: “Debunked by Nature” and living in truth | | 111:23 | Food policy: If Molly had the pen for a day | | 118:06 | Brother’s nonprofit “Kiss the Ground” & lobbying | | 121:20 | Finding and supporting local farmers |

Conclusion

This episode is a sweeping journey through Mollie Engelhart’s personal evolution, exposing the contradictions and gifts of modern food culture, veganism, and spiritual activism. Mollie and Rick seamlessly blend stories of personal hardship, societal critique, and reverence for the natural world—offering a textured vision for how we might reconnect with food, land, and each other.

For further information:

Debunked by Nature by Mollie Engelhart
Kiss the Ground
From the Farm

Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin

Guest: Mollie Engelhart
Date: October 22, 2025

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Vegan Identity, Family Scandal, and Cancel Culture

[00:08–07:47] Mollie narrates how an innocuous family moment—her father eating a home-raised hamburger—went viral, unleashing accusations of hypocrisy and drawing protests and boycotts to both Sage and Café Gratitude.
- Quote:
  
  “...My dad loves his cows. Loves his cows. And so once the meat was in the freezer, he had this thought... I feel like this cow would want me to eat her. I feel like she would want her life essence to go into my life essence.” — Mollie, 03:20
- The fallout lasted 18 months, prompting Mollie to confront how rigid ideologies and cancel culture can undermine nuance, community, and personal relationships.
- Notable insight: Veganism’s culture of purity can foster exclusion and aggression, which echoed in other cancel culture episodes, such as around COVID.
[05:10–07:47] Rick synthesizes the absurdity: that one personal choice (her father eating a burger) led to business-wide condemnation.
- Quote:
  
  “Your dad chooses to eat a burger. That doesn’t impact what the restaurant does... and your father’s personal choice is enough for the people who eat at the restaurant to turn on the restaurant.” — Rick, 05:10

2. Regenerative Agriculture: Personal Awakening

[07:47–18:35] Mollie traces her shift from vegan idealism to regenerative farming:
- Garden experiments, social media revelations, and a pivotal encounter with Graham Sait’s science-based optimism on carbon cycling sparked genuine hope for planetary healing.
- Early experiments—integrating animals into her farm for composting—undermined her “purely vegan” aspirations, leading her to realize the inseparability of death from agriculture.
- Quote:
  
  “You start to realize that there’s death in every bite of food, whether you see it on the plate or not. And that was really around 2018, 2019, that I had that full awakening. That was the beginning of the end of me being indoctrinated in the vegan conversation.” — Mollie, 14:28
She still doesn’t eat red meat, but now consumes raw dairy, bone broth, and eggs, and applies a practical, non-dogmatic perspective to diet and health.

3. Origins: From Recording Studios to Restaurants

[20:10–32:45] Mollie’s origin story is shaped by abrupt changes:
- From running a recording studio wiped out by digital music, to a successful stint in marijuana cultivation, and a series of financial crashes.
- She eventually developed vegan ice cream, partnering (sometimes naively) with others to launch Sage. Her commitment to integrity—ingredient honesty, ethical business—clashed with business partners, but led to her owning and fundamentally shaping Sage.
- Quote:
  
  “Sometimes...even when a relationship feels painful or disrespectful or not ideal, there’s something so beautiful on the other side. And you just have to trust that God has a plan and you can’t see all the moving parts.” — Mollie, 31:50
Sage’s expansion included partnerships with celebrities (Woody Harrelson, Jason Mraz), but ultimately presented financial, personal, and philosophical challenges as LA’s culture and her own values evolved.

4. Food Culture Legacies: Café Gratitude and Family Dynamics

[36:16–47:42] Deep dive into Cafe Gratitude, founded by Mollie’s father:
- Originated from Landmark Forum principles, with a unique model where affirmations (“I am beautiful,” “I am nourished”) were built into the menu and culture.
- The LA version became status-seeking, a far cry from the ragtag inclusivity of the original Mission district restaurant.
- Mollie discusses the competitive-yet-loving dynamic with her father, their daily “sales report” calls, and how adversity in business deepened their familial bonds.
- Quote:
  
  “We pray to the God of comfort in so many ways and convenience in our culture. I think it was brave to have a restaurant that says, like, we’re going to actually do something, it’s going to make people a little uncomfortable. And…but we believe that that is making a difference.” — Mollie, 45:13

5. Post-Pandemic Reality and Move to Texas

[51:57–60:53] COVID’s aftershocks ravaged restaurant culture:
- LA’s pandemic policies destroyed restaurant rhythms—family dinners, date nights—and reshaped eating habits.
- Financial and regulatory burdens forced Mollie to sell her California farm and relocate to Texas, with the move ultimately made possible by a timely wire transfer from Kanye West for farm consulting.
- Quote:
  
  “I have this thought, ‘God, please, I’m sorry to ask, but I need you to drop a pile of money on me.”...in the middle of the night, my phone bing, and it’s Kanye West.” — Mollie, 55:24

6. Faith, Nature, and Parenthood

[60:53–73:37] Mollie reflects on spirituality, motherhood, and nature’s lessons:
- Relates a powerful mushroom-induced vision that shifted her from “pro-choice” to “pro-life.”
- Her experience with loss, unconventional marriage, and raising a multi-generational, multicultural family on the land, underscores her evolving priorities and faith.
- Quote:
  
  “I feel like the closer I get to nature, the closer I feel to God, and the more I realize that our ego and our desire for domination has us missing the most precious parts of life.” — Mollie, 61:11

7. Living Off the Land

[75:41–79:05] On growing, cooking, and valuing one’s food:
- The pride and mindfulness fostered by producing, preserving, and cooking one’s own harvest versus “thoughtlessly” wasting store-bought food.
- Tactile, spiritual, and practical rewards from living close to the land.

8. Regeneration versus Industrialization

[79:09–100:57] Explains nutrient density, water’s memory, and the five principles of regenerative agriculture (context, cover, biodiversity, no or less chemicals/tillage, and animal integration).
- Contrasts regenerative with organic or industrial models, emphasizing active partnership with nature for soil health.
- Shares collaboration with regenerative icon Joel Salatin, who wrote her book’s foreword.

9. Debunked by Nature: The Book

[101:00–109:37] Her new book interrogates societal lies by asking: “What does nature do?”—on topics like breastfeeding, co-sleeping, sex, gender, food, and more.
- Urges a turn away from culture wars and ideological divisions, and back toward nature-informed, pragmatic solutions.

10. Food Policy, Local Farms, and Consumer Power

[110:53–124:13] Outlines what works (and what doesn’t) with government subsidies, SNAP benefits, and the kinds of policies that could support both nutrition and small farmers.
- Praises recent state-level reforms in Iowa and Oklahoma, and discusses the importance of direct action: consumers supporting local farmers is the heart of real change.
- Spotlights her brother’s work on Kiss the Ground, Common Ground, and the push to center soil health in bipartisan politics.

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

On cancel culture in veganism:

“Vegans, I always say, were at the forefront of cancel culture...It’s grounded in an ideology that has no logic and people would at me.” — Mollie, 06:33
On the romanticism (and reality) of animal-free farming:

“All of what we call organic fertilizer is attached to so much death. So then I’m starting to wonder, is there vegan food?” — Mollie, 13:30
On breast milk and dairy:

“If my breast milk is God’s perfect food...why is Una’s milk filled with pus, disgusting and gonna cause cancer? That doesn’t make any sense. Why do I believe that?” — Mollie, 12:52
On money, self-worth, and priorities:

“That’s how the money slave system works...you just have to keep doing something that’s literally not necessarily even benefiting your life. Saving food for my family, that’s what I need to be doing.” — Mollie, 78:07
On the foundation of life and health:

“There’s so much life in this soil and the design is so perfect... your garden is so much more high tech than a solar panel.” — Mollie, 80:02
On policy changes and who wields power:

“If Molly was queen for a day...I would make SNAP benefits apply only to whole foods and foods that had less than eight ingredients.” — Mollie, 111:23

Important Timestamps

Conclusion

For further information:

Debunked by Nature by Mollie Engelhart
Kiss the Ground
From the Farm

wavePod

Mollie Engelhart

Powered by Wave AI

Summary

Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Vegan Identity, Family Scandal, and Cancel Culture

2. Regenerative Agriculture: Personal Awakening

3. Origins: From Recording Studios to Restaurants

4. Food Culture Legacies: Café Gratitude and Family Dynamics

5. Post-Pandemic Reality and Move to Texas

6. Faith, Nature, and Parenthood

7. Living Off the Land

8. Regeneration versus Industrialization

9. Debunked by Nature: The Book

10. Food Policy, Local Farms, and Consumer Power

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

Important Timestamps

Conclusion

Summary

Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Vegan Identity, Family Scandal, and Cancel Culture

2. Regenerative Agriculture: Personal Awakening

3. Origins: From Recording Studios to Restaurants

4. Food Culture Legacies: Café Gratitude and Family Dynamics

5. Post-Pandemic Reality and Move to Texas

6. Faith, Nature, and Parenthood

7. Living Off the Land

8. Regeneration versus Industrialization

9. Debunked by Nature: The Book

10. Food Policy, Local Farms, and Consumer Power

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

Important Timestamps

Conclusion