Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin
Guest: Richard Prince
Release Date: February 19, 2025
Episode Overview
This riveting episode of Tetragrammaton features renowned artist Richard Prince in a wide-ranging conversation with Rick Rubin and co-hosts. Prince, known for his boundary-pushing work in appropriation, photography, painting, and books, reflects on his artistic evolution, groundbreaking innovations like "rephotography" and the joke paintings, his forays into music, legal battles, curatorial pursuits, and his lasting friendships in both the art and music worlds.
Their discussion delves into how Prince's work interrogates authorship, authenticity, and the intersection of popular culture with high art. The episode reveals Prince's process, sources of inspiration, and his lifelong quest for truth and originality, all told in his characteristically understated and wry tone.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. Early Days and Breakthrough — "Rephotography"
- Arrival in New York, 1974: Prince describes moving to NYC with the vague notion of a three-month visit that became permanent (18:39).
- The Decade of Obscurity: Between 1977 and 1987, he worked, showed his art, and developed ideas but found little institutional recognition (00:02).
- First Breakthrough:
- Discovered what became known as “rephotography”—taking photographs of existing images (ads, magazines) rather than creating original scenes.
- Called the camera an “electronic scissor” (01:15).
- Reimagined the decisive moment: “I could look through the viewfinder at 10 in the morning and come back at 4 in the afternoon. And I would see basically the same thing. Nothing has changed. So the whole idea of the decisive moment completely eradicated” (01:14).
- Why Ads?
- Worked at Time Life, collected ad images nobody else wanted (03:31).
- Fascinated by the lack of “author” and ad images’ “virtuoso reality that’s so real it’s unreal” (04:10).
- “I started to rephotograph what was plentiful, what was always there. I wasn’t on a treasure hunt.” (04:55)
- Naming and Influence:
- First called it "pirating," referencing sampling in music (05:03).
- Preferred to view himself as part of a generational shift shaped by TV and mass media (06:03).
- Quote:
“Who’s the author behind these? They’re art directed images. They have a virtuoso reality...so real that it’s unreal.” – Richard Prince (04:10)
2. Art Movements, Context, Influences
- Community:
- Early influences from narrative art and other artists using photography in unconventional ways (08:42).
- John Gibson Gallery was pivotal, as were influences like Vito Acconci, Dennis Oppenheim, etc.
- Art Movements in the Late '70s:
- "Minimum, conceptual, post-studio" arts were winding down, paving the way for the "Pictures Generation", of which Prince was part (17:19).
- Other members included Cindy Sherman, Robert Longo, Barbara Kruger, Jack Goldstein, et al. (18:39).
3. Developing His Style and Rationale
- On Appropriation:
- Prince tried to remove “interpretation” and subjectivity, striving for a “non-fiction” approach to art (14:27).
- “The idea of making it into a real photograph—I believe…well, photographs, you tend to believe.” (14:48)
- Photography as a Filter:
- Photography, like music tubes, colors reality—it “adds a truth” (11:46).
- Radical Content, Ordinary Presentation:
- The ordinariness of framing was purposeful: “It was the content that was radical.” (13:01)
4. The Joke Paintings
- Origin:
- In 1985, Prince wanted to draw again, but not make things up. He began redrawing cartoons and then simply writing out joke punchlines (22:09-24:23).
- Sought “truth” and believability by removing his own subjectivity from the work (23:32-23:54).
- First Joke:
- “I went to a psychiatrist. He said, ‘Tell me everything.’ I did. So he’s doing my act.” (33:03)
- Sales and Reception:
- Jokes were the first works that sold (25:54, 35:49).
- On his feelings: “If I had walked into a gallery and had seen someone put handwritten jokes up on a wall and call them their art, I would have been jealous. And when I have that feeling, I know that’s where the arrow should be pointing.” (36:30)
- Medium Experiments:
- From handwriting to silkscreen (37:48), then painting and stenciling (51:08).
- Sometimes reintroduced cartoons, purposefully mismatching joke and image (51:21).
5. Notable Legal Battles & Risk
- Appropriation Suits:
- Prince discusses being sued over both earlier "Rasta" works and Instagram portraits.
- On his legal ordeal: "It had taken a toll on me. Eight years. Takes a toll. Mentally, it's horrible. But on the back of my mind, I said, I'm gonna have this video. [...] It's just me talking about art. Yeah, that's it." (79:45-80:57).
- Final work was a nearly 7-hour film comprised solely of his deposition, called Deposition (78:03-81:14).
6. Instagram Portraits & Going Viral
- Biggest Hit:
- The Instagram portraits, made from screenshots and Prince’s own comments, brought him mainstream attention and backlash for the first time (56:38-62:18).
- Kids at school “got hammered.” (67:00)
- Massive controversy about using public Instagram photos for art that sold for high prices (67:47).
- “The hate was unbelievable...it blew up into a shit storm.” (67:27, 67:49)
- Gallery Fallout:
- Prince, angered by the gallery’s failure to recognize the cultural moment, took down the show early—an event he filmed:
"I took the show down myself because I was really pissed that they didn't say 'extended for another two weeks.' And I left the gallery. I left Gagosian that day." (69:59-70:01)
- Prince, angered by the gallery’s failure to recognize the cultural moment, took down the show early—an event he filmed:
7. Prince as Collector, Curator, and Maker
- Curating Homages:
- Planned an exhibit called "Collection" to showcase his homages to other artists, e.g., Warhol, Pollock, de Kooning, Picasso (121:31-125:39).
- Personal Archives:
- Collects jokes, rare books (especially Beat literature and first editions), memorabilia (126:29), and more.
- Publishing:
- Runs his own publishing company, Fulton Rider, releasing small-batch books and zines (119:20).
- On Organizing His Work:
- “I make bodies of work and I always have… I just don’t see how you’re going to organize it.” (119:41)
8. Music, Collaboration, and the "Glenn Branca Band"
- Played in bands with other artists, often at the fringe of the NYC music scene (20:35, 93:52).
- Noted how musicians like Thurston Moore and Lee Ranaldo spun out of Glenn Branca's experimental compositions, eventually forming Sonic Youth (95:16).
- On crossover with legendary musicians: detailed meetings with Bob Dylan and Paul McCartney, sharing insight into musicians' forays into visual art (105:46, 111:28).
9. Making Art and Process
- On Labor, Assistance, and the Studio:
- "Once [art] becomes labor... I get so detached and bored and I want to move on to the next body of work or another process because I have no desire to work for a living, basically." (83:49)
- On Bringing Ideas Into the World:
- “You can just share it with yourself, just to, you know... I mean, I make a lot of things that I need to make just to see what they look like.” (85:19)
- Happy to let work "sit in the racks for maybe almost 15 years" before showing it (85:34).
- On Community:
- The camaraderie of artists, spontaneous gallery visits, and shared inspiration formed a critical part of his process (131:33).
10. Philosophy, Longevity, and the Nature of Art
- On Persistence, Rejection, and Originality:
- "If the work wasn't rejected, then I'm... I mean, I don't know. It's not like I wanted to be rejected... but being hated is better than nobody caring. Well, there's an emotion." (134:04, 134:18)
- Definition of an Artist:
- “I still think an artist is essentially an antisocial creature who basically just is in a room doing something by themselves, and their audience doesn’t really have one at the moment of the making, or, and probably won’t for a while.” (134:44)
- On Art as Recognition:
- "I think it's recognition. You're able to receive it, whereas most of the population, all that got taken away from them by probably around age six. Somehow the artist. Something didn't get removed." (137:11)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- On the decisive moment in photography:
"The whole idea of the decisive moment completely eradicated." (01:14, Richard Prince)
- On authorship in ad images:
"Who's the author behind these? ...They have a virtuoso reality that's so real that it's unreal." (04:10, Richard Prince)
- On making joke paintings:
"If I had walked into a gallery and had seen someone put handwritten jokes up on a wall and call them their art, I would have been jealous." (36:30, Richard Prince)
- On Instagram portraits controversy:
"The hate was unbelievable... It blew up into a shit storm." (67:27, Richard Prince)
- On what it means to be an artist:
"I still think an artist is essentially an antisocial creature who basically just is in a room doing something by themselves..." (134:44, Richard Prince)
- On rejection versus indifference:
"Being hated is better than nobody caring. Well, there's an emotion." (134:18, Interviewer 2)
- On discovering the “Doors” piece in his studio:
"There were these four doors that were leaning up against the wall, and I looked at them, I said, oh, that's the Doors. I said, don't throw those away. Let's weld them together in a row. And the Chevy Impala is going to be Jim. That's Jim Morrison." (92:45, Richard Prince)
Timestamps for Important Segments
- 00:02 – Arrival in NYC, the decade before recognition
- 01:15 – Discovery of rephotography, "electronic scissor"
- 04:10 – Conceptualizing authorship and reality in images
- 13:04 – Early audience confusion ("What is it?")
- 17:12 – Context of 1977—punk, new art scenes
- 18:39 – The Pictures Generation and Prince’s peer group
- 22:09 – Beginning of joke paintings, philosophy behind them
- 33:03 – First joke painting punchline
- 36:30 – Realization about jealousy and originality
- 51:08 – Evolution of joke mediums (handwriting to silkscreen, painting)
- 56:36 – Instagram portraits and going viral
- 67:27 – The "shit storm" of social media backlash
- 78:03 – Deposition film, legal battles, performance
- 85:34 – Letting finished work sit for years
- 93:06 – Realization behind the "Doors" artwork
- 105:46 – Meeting Bob Dylan; on musicians in art
- 119:20 – Launching his own publishing company
- 131:33 – Artistic community and importance of camaraderie
- 134:44 – Definitive statement on being an artist
Additional Highlights
On Book Collecting and Dyslexia
- Began reading late due to dyslexia: “I didn’t read until I was, like, 22. But when I started, it flipped...” (126:29)
- Collects books for their covers, with a focus on Beat writers and first editions (125:42).
On Music
- Collaborations with both artists and musicians, including a firsthand account of playing in Glenn Branca’s band shortly before Sonic Youth emerged (95:16).
- Describes unique methods for making music (two-cassette overdubbing), and the spiritual “loudness” of his only released song (104:37).
On Furniture, Hoods, and Americana
- Paints car hoods and doors; the secret knowledge and subcultural symbols embedded in these choices (90:21, 92:45).
Conclusion
This episode is a rare, unfiltered exploration of Richard Prince’s mind and work, capturing his wit, skepticism, love of pop culture, and his stubborn pursuit of new forms and truths in art. For listeners interested in the blurred lines between originality and appropriation, fine art and mass culture, and the sacrifices and revelations of a lifelong artist, this conversation is essential.
For Further Listening
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