Rupi Kaur

Summary

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Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin

Episode: Rupi Kaur (November 19, 2025)

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Overview

In this deeply introspective episode, Rick Rubin sits down with acclaimed poet and performer Rupi Kaur. Through a candid and heartfelt conversation, Rupi explores her journey from self-publishing phenomenon to global literary star, navigating the challenges of creativity under commercial pressure, the evolution of her performance art, the role of social media, her cultural background, family dynamics, spirituality, and the ongoing dance between vulnerability and self-compassion. Listeners will come away with insight into Rupi's creative process, the healing power of poetry, and the universal search for authenticity and connection.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins & Early Success

• Rupi recalls the uninhibited joy of creating her first book, milk and honey, written without concern for audience or outcome.
  • “It was probably the most creative, fulfilling experience because you're not really thinking about the outcome or the result. You're like totally swept up in the magic and lost in the moment and that source is just working through you.” (00:25)
• Despite skepticism from authority figures (“your book is not going to get published, nobody publishes poetry”), she self-published.
• The book’s explosive success at a young age felt “amazing, and then equally traumatizing.” (00:25-01:33)

2. Creativity vs. Pressure

• The demands of rapid commercial follow-ups led to an unnatural, punishing creative process for her second book.
  • “Writing became such a punishing act… my body became so sick and I would go through these like 72 hour migraine spells.” (02:39)
• Participated in a “dance” between heart-driven, organic creation and head-driven, anxious expectation.
• After a decade marked by external pressure and internal struggle, Rupi took a sabbatical to reset and again feel “that spark come back and that magic.” (03:52)

3. Performance Roots & Medium Evolution

• Rupi emphasizes she began as a performance poet in her activist Sikh community, not as an "Instagram poet".
  • “For me, it started on the stage…my sort of journey in performance comes so much from my political activism work within my Sikh community.” (04:03)
• Audience interaction has always been core: “It felt like the first time people were listening.” (04:26)
• The translation of performance poetry to platforms like Tumblr and Instagram forced her to reimagine the visual and textual brevity of poems (“peach pits”).
  • “I got really obsessed with this idea of redesigning what a poem, how a poem could look like visually and how it could come to life on paper.” (05:20)
• Instagram, initially an odd place for poetry, unexpectedly amplified her work.

4. Building a Live Experience

• Performances grew from 5-minute open mics to immersive, theatrical experiences that blend poetry, music, and informal storytelling—“almost like a form of standup comedy”. (09:26)
• Audiences are diverse and interactive, sometimes “half a party and half a sleepover with your best girlfriends.”
  • Shows start from “a tougher place…working through trauma and suffering,” moving towards joy and celebration. (10:29-11:24)
• Different regions bring different demographics and energies to her audiences, but the emotional experience is universal.

5. Identity, Social Media, and Sabbatical

• Rupi resists labels and the reduction of her identity to social media metrics.
  • “So much of how I define myself doesn't include social media at all. But so much of how people define me or why they find me valuable is my social media platform.” (17:04)
• Decision to stop posting new poems regularly was freeing but intimidating; it was an intentional break to reconnect with a more authentic creative impulse.
• She’s considering longer-form media (newsletters, podcasts) as social media feels increasingly limiting and misunderstood.

6. Writing Practice & Blocks

• Initially, she posted two new poems a week, but ultimately shifted away from the pressure of deadlines.
  • Now, creative seasons ebb and flow: “90% of the book…happens in here, like in the gut. That's where it's written. And so it tells you when it's ready.” (33:12)
• Discusses the heart–head–gut dynamic in creativity, recounting how her best work often comes when she doesn't force or overthink.
  • “Creativity is like trying to have faith in God or like religion. It's like I can't exactly put my finger on it and I can't point at it. And there's absolutely no proof. But I just have to have faith.” (53:09–53:32)

7. Process, Editing, and Revision

• Rupi favors a process of stream-of-consciousness writing, voice notes, and rigorous revision—but tries to preserve the “soul” of early drafts.
  • “Sometimes the first one with its imperfections is actually the best one.” (68:26–68:32)
• She eschews titles for her poems to avoid putting them “in a box” or being too leading. (74:59–75:14)

8. Personal Themes: Family & Background

• Talks candidly about her family’s immigrant experience, especially her tumultuous relationship with her father (a survivor of genocide and displacement), and the deep ties to her mother and younger siblings.
  • “My dad…he was cold and distant and mean because I think he was probably depressed. God knows a whole bunch of people.” (26:29)
• Feels she serves as a bridge—a translator—between her parents’ generation and her siblings.
• The ability to give her parents experiences (like family trips) they never had is a source of deep satisfaction.

9. Spirituality and Sikh Roots

• Raised in a Sikh household, Rupi discusses both her resistance to and appreciation for the depth of Sikh philosophy.
  • “We believe in this oneness, that we are all connected. And so, you know, we are everything and we are nothing all at once.” (38:33–39:48)
• Notes the poetic and musical nature of Sikh scripture, the communal and meditative aspects of kirtan, and how these traditions inspire her own writing.
  • “All of our texts are written in poetic verse…other people’s interpretation [often distorts them].” (40:23)

10. On Self-Compassion and Therapy

• Describes the shift from harsh self-criticism (“my inner narrator is my dad”) to practicing grace and catching negative self-talk. (76:49–77:28)
• Sees growth in narrowing the distance between her on-stage and off-stage selves:
  • “When I'm on stage, I'm like the woman of my dreams…But then I get off stage and I don't feel that person anymore. And so I'm working on bridging the gap…” (46:12–46:15)

11. Poetry, Performance, and Healing

• Writing and performing are both spiritual experiences, distinct but vital to her sense of self.
  • “Writing has always felt like a spiritual experience, which is something I had to accept when I was trying to make it very methodical.” (80:28)
• Poetry in South Asian tradition is communal and embodied, making her think Western approaches rob the form of its vitality and accessibility.
  • “In the east…it is given as much space and respect as music and film. And in the west…it's been, I don't know, put into this corner...” (85:17)

12. Reflections on Success and Future

• Early success brought both validation and a kind of existential crisis: what happens when you get everything you thought you wanted?
  • “I went through a midlife crisis at 22…you can have all of this and the popularity, and it all still feels empty. Nobody told me that.” (68:56)
• Ultimately, Rupi is optimistic and trusts in the unfolding journey of creative renewal:
  • "What I feel is very excited and this deep belief that there is greatness ahead…to get to that greatness, I can't use the same road that I used that first climb." (87:42–87:57)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• The Joy and Terror of Sudden Success:
  “This book became like a machine and got so noisy…It was amazing. And then equally traumatizing.” (00:25–01:34)
• On Creativity & Faith:
  “Creativity is like trying to have faith in God or like religion…it’s like I can't exactly put my finger on it and I can't point at it. And there's absolutely no proof. But I just have to have faith.” (53:09–53:32)
• On Navigating Advice and Doubt:
  “What’s terrifying me is what the well-meaning people around me are saying, which is… it's okay, Rupi…we just have to change what our idea of success looks like now…but it’s not helpful because you’re just like, oh no, you don't even believe in me either.” (56:54)
• On Self-Criticism and Healing:
  “My inner narrator is my dad. And so we're learning to let that go. It's an everyday practice.” (76:55)
• On the “Timeless” Poem Process:
  “They convinced me I only had a few good years left before I was replaced by a girl younger than me…Now for the main event, Curtains up at age 50. Let’s begin the show.” (49:54)
  [See entire recitation at 49:54–51:12]
• On Short Poems:
  “Probably the biggest critique I get is it's so short, but it just is a feeling that to me, it's the right way…the short ones are the hardest to write.” (79:52–80:09)
• On Poetic Structure:
  “Line spacing…that's the way the poem dances on a stage. More so the rhythm of what it sounds like…how it looks is important, but it comes second.” (78:38–78:54)

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Timeline of Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |-----------|--------------| | 00:25 | Rupi’s journey self-publishing "milk and honey" and navigating unexpected fame | | 02:39 | The punishing process behind her second book and struggles with creativity under deadlines | | 04:03 | Origins as a stage poet—roots in performance and activism | | 05:20 | Translating poetry from stage to digital and visual formats | | 09:26 | Evolution of her live performance and building an immersive theatrical experience | | 11:24 | Description of audience demographics and universal emotional experience | | 17:04 | Reflection on social media identity and her decision to stop posting | | 33:12 | Writing as a seasonal, gut-driven practice; impact of deadlines | | 39:48 | Sikh spiritual foundations and the poetic nature of Sikh scriptures | | 46:12–47:22| On-stage confidence versus day-to-day self, therapy, and growth | | 49:54–51:12| Recitation and origin of the “Timeless” poem (downloaded inspiration) | | 74:59 | Discussion of poem titles and intentional “untitling” | | 80:28 | Writing as spiritual experience and rejection of overly methodical approaches | | 87:42 | Optimism and anticipation for the next creative chapter |

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Memorable Moments

• Rupi performing the "Timeless" poem (49:54–51:12): A moving moment that encapsulates empowerment, aging, and the unexpected origins of inspiration.
• Recounting her dad’s shift from skepticism to pride (27:09–27:40): Upsetting tradition when he finally understood her work through the respect for books.
• Audience recitation at live shows (87:09–87:13): An emotional highlight, making Rupi want to cry—“It just makes me want to cry.”
• Dancing between vulnerability and control: The tension throughout between letting go (“being in the heart and gut”) and the urge for commercial or critical coherence.
• Closing optimism: Rupi’s belief that "there is greatness ahead," but the upcoming path must—and will—be different.

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Conclusion

This episode provides a candid look at the intersections between art, vulnerability, and cultural identity, as Rupi Kaur and Rick Rubin engage in a thoughtful exploration of what it means to create authentically in the modern world. Rupi’s willingness to interrogate her past, experiment with new formats, and reveal her ongoing internal struggles offers hope, insight, and inspiration for creatives and audiences alike.

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Transcript

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Tetragrammaton.

[Rupi Kaur]

Writing the first book. And I mean, I think so many artists will say this, it was probably the most creative, fulfilling experience because you're not really thinking about the outcome or the result. You're like totally swept up in the magic and lost in the moment and that source is just working through you. And then even when my professor said, your book is not going to get published, nobody publishes poetry, nobody reads it. I was sort of unbothered because I really, I guess wasn't interested or didn't really care for it to be read because it was something larger working through me that was like, well, I just want to say it. So then I just self published it and I said it. And then what happened afterward was just so beyond my control. This book became like a machine and got so noisy. You know, it was like on the New York Times bestseller list for a hundred weeks, selling like millions of copies. And I was like 22, 23 years old. And it was amazing. And then equally traumatizing.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

And then it was like all of the outside voices come in and you're like, there was just no, I guess, space. And I was still graduating from university and I don't know when or how it happened. I think it's always like, not maybe one big thing, but a lot of small things. But yeah, it became about sustaining whatever it was, being at the top of that. And you know, I remember signing my second book deal was like a two book deal and I signed it like November 2016 and they said, okay, we'll need the draft of your second book by January 28, 2017. And I was like, that's not even six months. Wow. And you know, I like lock myself in the room and I started to create in a way that was not organic to me because I remember arriving at my, you know, the blank piece of paper for the first time with an intention to write the book and having no idea how I even did it the first time.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

And you know, reading about other authors and Stephen King says, you know, you need to like put these many hours in and these many words. And it was like writing became such a punishing act.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Rupi Kaur]

And like my body became so sick and I would go through these like 72 hour migraine spells. I couldn't digest food. It was just like pain all the time. But the book eventually came out and I read a lot of it and I'm like, ooh, it's like a little rusty. I wish I got like more time to edit it. But at the same time I'm like, well, if I had unlimited time, maybe it would have never come out. And then this last fall, I kind of celebrated the 10 year anniversary of my first book. And I knew. I was like, okay, we're kind of done with this chapter. And so I decided to take a sabbatical. And it's been amazing, and it's been. Been so humanizing, and I've been definitely getting back into the driver's seat of my life again. Feeling good about it and feeling that spark come back and that magic.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Rupi Kaur]

And it's exciting and terrifying.

[Interviewer]

Are you still an Instagram poet?

[Rupi Kaur]

See, for me, I never saw myself as that.

[Interviewer]

I see.

[Rupi Kaur]

Because I started performing. For me, it started on the stage.

[Interviewer]

Tell me about that. What's the first time you ever read poetry on stage?

[Rupi Kaur]

I first performed in high school. It was 2009, I think I was like 12th grade. And it was something. I see it like a poster for an open mic night. Didn't really know what that meant. I just signed up, I wrote something, didn't know it was a poem. And I was like, okay, I want to share this.

[Interviewer]

And.

[Rupi Kaur]

And so I got up and, you know, it went against my entire personality to want to share something like this. It's a very bad poem, but I recited it anyway, and it was so electrifying. It felt like the first time that people were listening.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Rupi Kaur]

And so I just kept going back. And my sort of journey in performance comes so much from my political activism work within my Sikh community. And so that's kind of where it started. And, you know, I would perform at all these local events and open mics for years. I did that until my friends were like, you know, you write one poem for one event, and then you never share that poem again. You know, you could, like, put it online where millions of people live, and they would love that. And so that's when I turned to Tumblr and I began to share my work there.

[Interviewer]

So they all started as performance pieces?

[Rupi Kaur]

Yes. And they would do those longer poems that were four or five minutes long. Like, the performative ones would come to life on stage. And when I first started sharing them on Tumblr, it just wasn't landing. Like, I could get such a visceral response on stage, but it felt like nobody was reading it online. And that's when I began to experiment. And I realized, wait, there's a difference here. There's, like, performance poetry, and then there's paper poetry, and. And I need to. Yeah, I got really obsessed with this idea of Redesigning what a poem, how a poem could look like visually and how it could come to life on paper. And that's when I began to kind of create these. I call them peach pits. So I'll, like, write a first draft, and then it's about, like, peeling back the skin and the flesh and just presenting the core of the idea, so. So that it's, like the most concentrated form, and it hits you hard and fast, you know, like a shot of vodka or something. And I started noticing that people's response to that was so visceral and powerful. And so that's when I was like, oh, this is interesting. I'm getting two very different formats, same sort of response. The response is important because that's a dance with the audience as a performer. And so then it went from Tumblr, and then years later, I went to Instagram. And then years of being on Instagram, this audience sort of grew. And then the term Instagram poet was sort of slapped on me. And I was like, well, what the hell is that?

[Interviewer]

But were you the first one? You're the first one I've heard of. That's why I'm asking.

[Rupi Kaur]

I'm the first one that I know who was sharing on Instagram. There were probably other people who were doing it.

[Interviewer]

We think of Instagram as mainly images.

[Rupi Kaur]

Exactly.

[Interviewer]

So the idea of text on Instagram already is like a disconnect.

[Rupi Kaur]

It was so weird, but it worked.

[Interviewer]

And maybe that's part of its strength is that it wasn't what everyone was doing.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So it was novels.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yes, exactly. Like, it was like, 2012 on Instagram. And I remember thinking, this is really weird because all my friends are using Instagram to share, like, vacation photos and really ugly photos of their food.

[Interviewer]

Did you ever use Instagram for anything other than posting? Never pieces.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah. I was like, one of those people. I was like, oh, my God, I'm never going to get Instagram. It's like, I don't post photos of that. Why would I be interested in that? And then I started using it to share first my paintings and my visual work.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

And then I remember I lived with my best friends in college, and I had written this poem about alcoholism and, like, domestic violence. And I said to her, I don't know why I decided I wanted to share it there, but I was like, do you think this is super weird? There's no words on Instagram. Should I share it? And I mean, she was like, yeah, go ahead. Let's see how it goes. And so, yeah, I remember Sharing it and reading responses from women saying, wow, this piece makes me feel like such a woman. And I was like, wow, why is that? And really investigating that. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

From the beginning, what was the rhythm of how often you would post something?

[Rupi Kaur]

I would probably post like two new pieces. Poems a week. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And would you write them and post them or would they be things that you wrote over time and then posted?

[Rupi Kaur]

Write and post, Write and post. Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

And were you always doing either open mic nights or some version of getting on stage and reading them the whole time?

[Rupi Kaur]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

Never stopped. Never stopped from then till now?

[Rupi Kaur]

Yes. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, tell me about that. What's it like? First of all, at an open mic night when you're doing poetry, how long do you go up for?

[Rupi Kaur]

So at an open mic you're up for five minutes. But then when eventually different organizations were like, hey, we want to fly you to Vancouver and do this and do that. And then suddenly I was like, shoot, well, if you're flying me out, I can't get away with doing five minutes. So then it became like half an hour. And then the more it grew, I was like, okay, what does the format of this look like now? And it sort of became like a 90 minute, sometimes 120.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Rupi Kaur]

Theatrical experience of poetry that sits on top of like original music that we were producing. But then there was a narrative weaved through with storytelling and almost like a form of standup comedy which I would kind of use as a self defense mechanism, you know, and had no really idea what it was, but it just worked. And my audiences would come and, you know, we'd sell out, but nobody really knew what was going to happen.

[Interviewer]

They thought, what kind of places did.

[Rupi Kaur]

You play any type of performance venue to like opera houses, like Sydney Opera House or. Yeah, those kind of anywhere. Kind of a musician would perform. Yeah. And then people, you know, at the.

[Interviewer]

End would be like, typically people would be sitting in the audience.

[Rupi Kaur]

They would. Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

So more like a theater than a player.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yes, exactly, exactly. And they would come and they'd be like, we really didn't know what you were going to do. We thought maybe you'd sign both or you could give a talk. But yeah, it's like a. It's more like theater.

[Interviewer]

How would you describe the audience?

[Rupi Kaur]

It depends on where in the world we are. But what would surprise people is it's really fun, loud and engaging. It's like half of it feels like a party and then the other half feels like a sleepover on Friday night with your best girlfriends. And It's a dance. I mean, they're screaming and yelling things out to me, and we're having a conversation and I'm responding. And so the frequency is just like, building and building and building. I always start the show off from a place of, like, a tougher place. In the same way the books are organized, the trauma or the difficult moment and the suffering come right in the beginning. So we work through that and then we always end up in a place of, like, celebration. And then, you know, the frequency sort of builds and it's like. Feels very magical.

[Interviewer]

Do you think of the work as optimistic?

[Rupi Kaur]

Yes. You know, because people will tell you their how they experience it, but you yourself will never be able to experience it. So I don't know what it is.

[Interviewer]

But describe the differences between the audience in different parts of the world.

[Rupi Kaur]

Like in America, it's probably 60, 40 women to men or 70, 30. And age, I'd say like 21 to 35. And then you go to a place like India and the age just widens. You get a lot of young girls, middle school, 10, 12. And then you get a lot of, like, older couples. And then in Australia, what surprised me compared to other places was, like, men coming by themselves, maybe in their, like, 60s.

[Interviewer]

Interesting.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah. And for that was particularly They're Coming and Holding, my third book. So it all depends on the themes and what people relate to. But at the same time, every audience feels the same in a sense, because what we're exploring together is like, human emotion, and that's all universal.

[Interviewer]

Have you seen anyone else do anything like what you're doing? Because when you're describing it, to me, it feels outside of all of the genres and formats that I'm used to seeing.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah, yeah. I haven't. And that's been the challenge.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

But there are other poets. Like, there's a poet, incredible poet named Alok, who they tour the world with their poetry. We have a different type of show, for sure. But they are probably the only poet I know who are touring globally. Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

Oh, there's a poet I know named Kay Tempest.

[Rupi Kaur]

Oh, yes.

[Interviewer]

Kay is incredible.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yes, yes, yes. And there's like, poets, like, I think the ones who've inspired me, Andrea Gibson.

[Interviewer]

And when you're doing the poetry reading, are you reading or are you performing it?

[Rupi Kaur]

I'm performing it.

[Interviewer]

Are you holding a book or. No.

[Rupi Kaur]

So for the big poems, like the ones that are like, the performance, those are all memorized. They're like six, seven minutes long. And then the smaller ones in between, I have like my book that I'll sort of refer too just as like a backup.

[Interviewer]

Cool. The live performance is the most fun part.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah, they're actually. It's so different. It's like I don't know which one I like more, but the best moments are. Yeah, when I'm performing live or when I'm in the flow of writing something that's making my stomach turn. They're so different because one is so outward because you're connecting with other people's hearts and then one is so inward because you're connecting with your own heart.

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[Interviewer]

Would you say everything you write is biographical?

[Rupi Kaur]

No.

[Interviewer]

Tell me about that.

[Rupi Kaur]

I'm most inspired by conversations with people, so a lot of my work is biographical. But then it also becomes about what the people around me, the community around me is going through and what the world is going through.

[Interviewer]

So if someone tells you a story of a difficulty in life that is emotionally charged for you, you might write a poem from that perspective telling that story.

[Rupi Kaur]

I might. But in most cases it can't just emotionally move me. I have to have some. My life has to have a little bit of that to begin with for me to, I think like confidently, like dive into that perspective and give my like, viewpoint on it.

[Interviewer]

Do you still post two poems a week?

[Rupi Kaur]

No.

[Interviewer]

When did you stop?

[Rupi Kaur]

I stopped posting two new poems a week probably in like 2017. And then I would post two poems, but poems I'd already written and I was reposting published works for many years. And then in the last year I kind of stopped. And in this year I've stopped posting Altogether.

[Interviewer]

Tell me about that decision. Was it a decision or did you just stop?

[Rupi Kaur]

It was a decision.

[Interviewer]

Tell me about that.

[Rupi Kaur]

Because it was a weird. It was a hard decision. So much of how I define myself doesn't include social media at all.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Rupi Kaur]

But so much of how people define me or why they find me valuable is my social media platform because of, like, the followers I have. And so there is always that pressure to engage with it. For example, like when I decided to go on the sabbatical, you know, I let go of my team. I sort of shut down all operations, and somebody who has a vested interest in me working. Great person.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

Said, okay, like, all of that's fine, but just tell her, don't stop posting online. And I. I just feel like I had nothing left to say. Yeah. I've been, like, sharing and engaging with the online space since 2011, and I was probably, I don't know, like, 18, 19 at the time. I just turned 33. I just can't keep engaging in the same way because I'm not the same person. And it was scary because it's. So much of the sabbatical has been about letting go of that identity so I can make room for wherever I am and what I need to grow into. But it's been really freeing. And it's been so freeing. But now I'm coming up against this tension that's like, I know I'm ready to create again because I can feel the book baking in here, and I know what it feels like and what I want it to say. And so as I'm opening myself up to that. Yeah. I'm wrestling with the idea of how to redefine that relationship with social media, because it has to be in a way that inspires me, because that's how it worked the first time. And the reality is it's not been inspiring for the last few years. But then there's another part of me that doesn't want to engage at all. So I'm trying to figure out which one to invest in more. I'm not sure.

[Interviewer]

It also sounds like what you described. The first time going on stage. The need to be seen was important then, and now I imagine you feel like you're seen. So maybe your relationship to that has changed.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah. And I just don't know if it's a place where I want to be seen on a stage, because I feel like I can express what I want to express fully, but the platform has changed so much. If we're just talking specifically Instagram, I Feel like I can only throw out a little nugget of what I want to say, and even that will be vastly misunderstood.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

And so I'm finding myself leaning toward something more long form, whether that's a newsletter or a podcast, while also trying not to create more work for myself.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, understood. How has performance changed from the time you started doing them to now for you?

[Rupi Kaur]

I think confidence is probably the biggest thing, because when I was first on stage, my knees would be shaking, my hands would be trembling because I'm naturally like a shy, you know, growing up and insecure person. Because that was a voice that was ingrained to me was like, you're not enough, and you're always wrong and you're always making mistakes. But it's been amazing. I mean, I started performing in 2009, and I think only in 2022 did I come to the realization or accept that I'm good at this and I'm really enjoying it and I don't need to be nervous. And so I started getting on stage without feeling anxiety or, like, the nerves, really.

[Interviewer]

First time you go to a new country to perform, is that different feeling any sense of anxiety, or does it feel like I can do this anywhere?

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah, it feels like I can.

[Interviewer]

That's great.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah. Yeah. Cause it's weird. It's like different. Different races, different languages, different customs, yet majority of it, the audience energetically feels the same.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah. Maybe. Cause that's just the type of energy that's attracted to the work.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Tell me about your relationship with the audience. What do you think they come to you for?

[Rupi Kaur]

I mean, I can only try to make sense of it based on, like, the things that they say. And they'll often come to me and, you know, they'll open one of my books and be like, this one. How did you know? And I was like. I'm like, what are you talking about? And they're like, well, you wrote about my life. How did you know this? And so I think they come to me in a way. It's to connect with themselves, really, because it's a very. People have a very intensely emotional bond with the poetry, because I think a lot of it is about deeply personal things. And so it becomes, like, a place of healing and connection and a place of letting go. And. Yeah, I haven't really figured it out yet, but I've stopped trying Since.

[Interviewer]

You write words and you perform on stage, the jump from poetry to lyrics is not so far. Have you ever considered doing music?

[Rupi Kaur]

I have. I've been sort of Pseudo sort of working on an album for the last eight years, but it's never been in the top three priorities. Cause like a book or a tour always takes precedence.

[Interviewer]

And how's working on music different for you?

[Rupi Kaur]

It's so much easier because you don't have to do it all on your own.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

It's nice to be in the studio with someone else because I'm not singing. And it's not traditional navigating that is kind of complicated. And in a way it's kind of the same as navigating the poetry space for the first time way back when. But when you're doing it for the first time, you're not really thinking about it. So now, like the album actually is a priority for me because, yeah, I've been thinking about what do I want this next era to look like. And I want to keep performing. That's, you know, my big love and the things that brings me joy. But then I need people to understand, you know, what it is I do at show. So I think being in people's ears is important. Yeah. So I'm thinking about how to put this together. But I also don't think it could be an album where it's like, let's just say 12 tracks of like spoken word pieces. It has to be some form of experimental. Like, I know that which poem should be its full 6 minutes and then the rest of it. We need to play around with it more. So now I'm again, I guess it's like, well, I don't really need to know what the end result is. I just need to go in and start spend time. Yeah. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Tell me about your family.

[Rupi Kaur]

I'm the oldest of four kids.

[Interviewer]

Oldest of four brothers, sisters, two sisters.

[Rupi Kaur]

And brother is the youngest. He's nine years younger than me. And then we grew up with both parents. I was born in Punjab and immigrated with my mom to Montreal first when I was three and a half. And my dad was already here because he had left.

[Interviewer]

Did you remember anything about your old life when you came? Three and a half is early, so.

[Rupi Kaur]

No. I'm going to say no because I think the only things I remember are the things that you were told that I was told. And then you create the visuals, you know. Yeah, yeah. But I think the feeling is the two lives feeling very different in temperature.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Do you remember the first time you.

[Rupi Kaur]

Went back to India 10 years after I came?

[Interviewer]

Did you feel like it was foreign or did you feel like this is home or something else?

[Rupi Kaur]

Something in the middle?

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

At first it was terrifying because you. I remember I was in eighth grade, and we pull up to my dad's village into a house that has no electricity and proper plumbing, and it's a concrete, like, concrete wall still. And I was like, what the hell is going on? And where am I? Power is out most of the day, so it's just like a very different reality. But then, you know, by the end of it, you adapt and it becomes like a deeply connective place. And. And then I had a 10 year gap, and then I went back in 2016. But when I went back to perform for the first time was 2018, and it was so magical. It felt like the first time I was performing and I didn't feel the need to express, explain myself.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

Because they just understood. That was really powerful.

[Interviewer]

That's amazing.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Tell me about your relationship with your mom and your relationship with your dad.

[Rupi Kaur]

My relationship with my dad? Yeah. Him and I are. I feel like we've been beefing since I came out of the womb. Poor guy. I would say I get a lot of my, like, rebellious spirit from him. He is. He's a refugee, and he fled before I was born. You know, he's a survivor of the sixth genocide that happened in 1984. And so much of what I've learned about revolution and art and politics comes from him. And I can romanticize all of that, but the thing is, when somebody goes through that, it breaks him.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

In a way that's not very romantic at all. And so everybody says, my dad. I don't actually know the version of my dad that they know. Like the one that used to laugh and the one that was light and warm and all those lovely things. The man that I met at the Montreal airport in the mid-90s when we got here was cold and distant and mean because I think he was probably depressed. God knows a whole bunch of people.

[Interviewer]

He's probably walled off to protect himself from his situation.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Has it gotten better over time or no?

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah, it has. I think after I started publishing.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah. He didn't understand the performing thing. He never came to any of, like, my performances. He hated that I did it. He was like, anytime you're not spending studying is a waste of time and you're just gonna fail. It all turned when my book first came out. So I didn't tell them that I was publishing a book, but I did. When I got my first copy, I came home and I sort of dropped it off in front of him. And books is something he could understand. You Know, it's something that he respects in his culture. And then the table sort of turned and he was like, oh, how can we support you?

[Interviewer]

Wow, that's beautiful.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah. And so it's been, it's been nice. And, you know, at some point you're like, well, this is my dad. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I have one dad. And so let's work on this relationship. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And your mom?

[Rupi Kaur]

My mom is, you know, it's like House is very patriarchal, but my mom is like this like young 16 year old energy who never got to really always explore her life. I mean, when you come from a South Asian home, especially from such a rural place.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Rupi Kaur]

As a woman, your life is really defined by your children and your husband and how you can serve them. And so we've had a good relationship. And now that her four kids have left the nest, it's interesting and sad, and there's a lot of guilt involved in watching her make sense of her world because she feels very purposeless, but has never been allowed to ask or wonder what is her purpose outside of all of this. You know, I'm the first woman in my lineage who gets to have that privilege.

[Interviewer]

Did you feel like a second mom to your siblings?

[Rupi Kaur]

Yes. I'm like the translator between that generation and then translating what the siblings say because these two forces do not understand each other. And I'm like trying to be the glue in, like, the bridge. And so I still am that, but also sometimes I'm like, okay, I'm too tired. You guys fight. I'm gonna go.

[Interviewer]

But you probably understand both sides better than anyone else in the picture because.

[Rupi Kaur]

Sometimes you're like, oh, you guys are saying the same thing.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

It's just a different language.

[Interviewer]

Yes, yes.

[Rupi Kaur]

And then my dad is speaking a very intense language that comes off very aggressive.

[Interviewer]

Yes, yes.

[Rupi Kaur]

But inside he's just a big baby.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Rupi Kaur]

And then my brother is like me, sensitive and emotional and, you know, very impassioned. And he's saying something else and it's rubbing him the wrong way, and I'm just like, oh, my goodness. So, yeah, that happens a lot.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Would you say your parents are happy together?

[Rupi Kaur]

I don't know. They say that.

[Interviewer]

What do you think?

[Rupi Kaur]

I, you know, now I start to, to just accept what they say.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Rupi Kaur]

You know, I think before that I'd be like, you guys don't even love each other. All you guys do is fight. And then, you know, they bicker so much, and then every time they're bickering and, you know, my mom, she's a soft speaker. So she'll say things that really annoy my dad. But nobody will say anything to her. Cause nobody hears her be annoying. And then my dad will raise his voice and then everyone like, dad, why are you talking like that to mom? And he's like, I'm always like the bad guy. And then we'll just get involved. And the moment the kids get involved they're like, you guys stay out of it. You guys don't understand. And now I'm just like, oh, this is like some weird way that you guys like flirt and express love. So we're just going to let you do that. Because sometimes my experience of their lives is very depressing. And so then I give their lives a very sad outlook. And then I'm just like, you know what, that might not even be the case. So they say they're happy together. They say they can't live without each other. So I let it be. It's an arranged marriage.

[Interviewer]

It wasn't arranged.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah, they like never met before they got married.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Interesting, interesting. In the culture that's standard.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yes. For their generation for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nobody, I mean people did get married for love, but that was like, you know, some guy in the village and he runs away with the love of his life and then you never hear of them again. Yeah, yeah.

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[Interviewer]

Do you write all the time?

[Rupi Kaur]

No.

[Interviewer]

Do you write when something's due or is something else get you to write?

[Rupi Kaur]

So I stopped writing when something's due because I just stopped writing, stop signing contracts cuz I was like, oh my God, these deadlines are killing my creativity. And now I think, you know, I don't Think I've ever. And I used to be insecure about it. I don't think I've ever had a single process that I know just works. So I'm still trying to figure it out, but I think it's seasons. Yeah. Because 90% of the book, and I just use the book as like kind of a stand in. But it happens in here, like in the gut. That's where it's written. And so it tells you when it's ready. It kind of feels like butterflies in your stomach, I think. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So the first book essentially was written before you knew you were writing a book because you were writing pieces to do live.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

And then posting them eventually. And then the second book was on a deadline, and it was a very different experience. Stressful.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And then how was the third book different from the second book?

[Rupi Kaur]

With the third book, my goal was just from like a creation sort of perspective. I was. I will never have the milk and honey experience.

[Interviewer]

Yep.

[Rupi Kaur]

Because that was what it was.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

But I do not want to have the sun and her flowers experience because I will jump out of a window. And so can I have something in the middle? And so homebody was, for me, that something in the middle. I started, you know, I was working on getting more in touch with my spirituality. I was healing from depression, anxiety, and, you know, bringing meditation into my life. And so I feel like I was able to have that sort of in the middle sort of experience. And with my fourth book, it's not a book of poetry, it's writing exercises. And that was really fun because it was the first time I was doing such a book. But with this next book, which will be poetry, oddly enough, it is feeling closer to the first book.

[Interviewer]

Do you think the fact that the fourth book was a different kind of book was like a reset?

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah, I think so. You're playing.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. How did that one come about?

[Rupi Kaur]

During COVID I started doing these online writing workshops, which were a lot of fun. I don't know. I was like in the shower one day and I was like, can I do something? Like, how can I contribute to the online space? Which is like really the only place we can go at the moment. And then I. I used to facilitate them in person. And then when I started doing them on Instagram, sometimes I'd have 10,000 people join and they would stay for the full hour, and then sometimes two hours. And then they'd be like, so, like, same time next week? And then I did it a few more weeks. And at some point I was like, oh my God, I can't do this all the time. Like, I need to figure out how to give you guys something and then also go do my thing. And so then that book was my thing to give people because actually before that point, I didn't know that so many of my readers were writers.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

So that was like something new I learned. And I thought, wouldn't it be cool to create something like a tool that I can give them that might help them develop the first draft of their first book or their album or their song? So that was really cool. Cool.

[Interviewer]

So the book is like the curriculum for the online classes you were doing?

[Rupi Kaur]

Yes, exactly.

[Interviewer]

And tell me about the in person classes. What were those? Like, how many people would come and what was the feeling of it?

[Rupi Kaur]

My favorite is probably when it's like 20ish people because it's a small, intimate group. I do two or three exercises and then, you know, in the beginning everyone's like, well, I'm not really creative. And like, I don't really know. And by the end of it, and everybody goes around, I mean, you can pass if you want to, but I ask everyone to share and you'll hear such amazing work from people who say they're not creative at all.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

Because, I mean, we're all creative for sure. You know, they are like, thank you so much for doing this. And they don't know that. Seriously, I'm getting so much out of it myself.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Tell me about your spiritual life.

[Rupi Kaur]

I grew up in a very religious home, so my parents are Sikh and Indian.

[Interviewer]

Sikh is different than American Sikh. There's a whole Sikh community in Los Angeles. But I don't know how related they are.

[Rupi Kaur]

I don't think they would be divided by geographics because it's more so just, I guess, belief system. Yeah, Philosophies and that can sort of exist in pockets anywhere in the world. But at the end of the day, it's the belief in this idea that all of this is just a play and it's just an acting out in front of us and the play starts now and it ends now. And, you know, I think there's a belief that we're a monolithic religion, but we're not because we don't really even sort of believe in a God. It's this. We believe in this oneness, that we are all connected. And so, you know, we are everything and we are nothing all at once. And I think the reason I rejected so much of Sikhi, because Sikhi means learning. And so it was actually Anti religion for the time, because there was lots of things going on in the 1400s in South Asia, where, for example, women, when their husbands died, widows were expected to jump in the fire. And there was a man named Guru Nanak who was, like, looking around and he was like, well, that feels a little weird, and this doesn't feel right. And so there's this idea of, well, we should question everything and we should always be students of life. And so that's what Sikhi means. But I think what happens is. And human beings come in, and then they take something that might be really beautiful and make it maybe not feel so beautiful. And I think South Asian culture can sometimes be very patriarchal. And so the version of Sikhi that sometimes my parents enforced on me was a lot of about, oh, you can't do this and you can't do that. But then the Sikhi that I learned as a teenager when I was sort of in the community with people maybe a little bit older than me, but really experiencing my. Exploring the artistic side of Sid Ki was when I began to fall in love with it.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

And so I've been on this journey ever since, but also experiencing different modalities. I mean, you know, with different forms of meditation. And I think it all. For me, it just comes back to love and oneness.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

And so, yeah, I would say the sabbatical has given me a lot of space to connect with that, and my entire world is changing because of it.

[Interviewer]

Beautiful.

[Rupi Kaur]

Which is really exciting.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you were to read just the Guru Nanak writings as opposed to everything that came after. Do you like those words? The original idea.

[Rupi Kaur]

So in Sikhi, we have 10 teachers I like. I think all of them are deeply powerful. One of them writes so much about mental health and how to engage with the mind, and the mind being a prison and how to separate and detach. And all of our texts are actually written in poetic verse, and they're musical compositions. And I think it's other people's interpretation.

[Interviewer]

Are they easier to remember? Because it's like a song, you can repeat it.

[Rupi Kaur]

Exactly. And they're very much like my. I've actually been so inspired by it. Short and concise and tight verses that, you know, you could sit around with your friends and you could take four words and then you could discuss them for four hours.

[Interviewer]

Is there a piece of music in that tradition that we can listen to? That's true to the beautiful part of it.

[Rupi Kaur]

So all of the six scriptures are then performed as kirtan on harmonium. And tabla or any sort of classical Indian string instrument.

[Interviewer]

Could we find a version to listen to?

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah, we can.

[Interviewer]

Play me something.

[Rupi Kaur]

It was Diwali the other day, and I was in Ottawa with my parents and we went to the Gurdwara. So we celebrate Diwali, but we refer to it as bandito or devas. And the ragi. Ragi is the person who is performing the Gitan had a beautiful Shabbat. Let me see if I can play. And then the whole audience was singing.

[Interviewer]

Sa. And all the words are devotional.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah. This one was about just love, loving the world, and like the one true creation and source and energy. What I love about raags is there are certain raags that you only sing in that composition in the morning, and there are different rags for the evening. And it's like creatively and energetically, you know, when you're in tune with that, you can really. It's so powerful and so exciting and inspiring.

[Interviewer]

And when you go to someplace where that is being performed, you would sing along. Yeah, everybody sings along.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah, you can. Sometimes I go to the Gurdwara and no one is singing, and then sometimes I think it's depending on who's performing, they very much invite it. So that was like one of the days where I was like, oh, wow. He was, you know, bringing the audience into that play and you could feel the frequency sort of rise, and it was beautiful.

[Interviewer]

So it's essentially gospel music.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah, it is, yeah. Gospel music and meditation at once, and then you do it together. Because there's a belief, like in many cultures and faiths, that when you meditate together, the energy of all of the people together just moves the frequency in a way that not a single person.

[Interviewer]

The whole thing is amplified. Yeah, for sure, that happens.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah, exactly.

[Interviewer]

Tell me about your media diet.

[Rupi Kaur]

So I started feeling this a few years ago that I can't feel my imagination the way that I used to, because spending so much of my time on my phone, especially social media, it just takes up so much space. And so. Well, I was already not posting, and so I kind of blocked off all of my apps. And since then, I feel like my brain has changed and my life is changed. Changed in a way that I just have my time and my brain back, which feels really exciting and good for the creativity. And so I've been reading a lot more than I have in past years, which is a lot of fun, because, you know, even when I'm reading something that's, like, inspiring on the. On social media, I always leave feeling like I'm functioning at a lower frequency. The dopamine hit that it gives me never really fully lasts, and it's always fleeting. But the dopamine hit that I get from reading a book, sustains. And so I've been doing a lot of just, like, reading. And like, in a little bit. I'm also a little bit addicted now, actually.

[Interviewer]

Nice.

[Rupi Kaur]

So I was in the Maldives. I was performing somewhere. And then right after the performance, everyone's going to the party. I'm like, I gotta go finish that book. It was this amazing book. What's it called? Mr. Penumbra's 24 Hour Bookstore. Yeah. Getting lost in, like, the childlike wonder of those stories is really fun. So that's kind of just what I'm taking in is just.

[Interviewer]

Do you tend to read more fiction?

[Rupi Kaur]

I used to read more fiction all the time as a kid as, like, a young girl. And then I probably stopped in university. And then most of what I've read in my adult life has been business books and self help and a lot of memoirs. And I totally forgot fiction altogether. And then I struggled to get back into it, but now I'm getting back into it, and so that's mostly what I'm reading right now.

[Interviewer]

Would you say you're as fearless in life as you are in your words?

[Rupi Kaur]

Oh, my God, no.

[Interviewer]

Tell me about that relationship.

[Rupi Kaur]

I'm trying to be. I always describe to my therapist, I say, cause people are like, what is it like to be on stage? And I always say, well, when I'm on stage, I'm like the woman of my dreams. Yeah, she's so powerful and she's so confident and she's so funny. Because when I get up there, I don't even know what happens. And you know, my two younger, younger siblings, my brother and my sister, they're so funny. And they're the funniest people I know. And they'll come up to me and they'll be like, holy shit. I mean, something just happens to you up there and you just become this person. Like, good for you. But then I get off stage and I don't feel that person anymore. And so I'm working on bridging the gap and narrowing that gap between these two people. Because I think that's also a story I tell myself if that woman exists up there when there's nobody on the stage to get in her way and in her space. But as I've been doing this work through my sabbatical, that gap is definitely narrowing and the story is changing and the way that I speak of myself and to myself, which is very exciting because for a long time I was like, well, this is just who I am. And it's never going to change how.

[Interviewer]

Much of it when you're on stage.

[Rupi Kaur]

Is.

[Interviewer]

Decided in advance and you know what you're going to do. Methodical versus in the moment and spontaneous.

[Rupi Kaur]

I would say most of it because I kind of have the poems I've picked out and is mental, but I leave a lot of room for the channeling. So I'll change things and I'll respond to the audience. I'll throw in poems. If I don't have the poem, I'll ask somebody to throw up a book and I'll get into that. And yeah, over the years, through, I guess, practicing that surrender, it's the moments where you're just letting go and channeling that the greatness sort of comes through you and you're like, whoa, that was so cool. I wish I got to record that. How did that happen?

[Interviewer]

Yeah. And when you're writing, is it thought out or is it more of a download?

[Rupi Kaur]

It's more of a download. And I was actually going to ask you a question about this because there are some times when you know, and it doesn't happen all the time. And Elizabeth Gilbert describes this as big magic. And sometimes, and it's very few times, but you're writing a poem and it feels like that, you know, the conveyor belt that you could just stand on it. It transports you to the other end of the hallway, the long hallway at the airport. Some of the poems feel like that. Like, there's this one poem, timeless. I don't know where that poem came from. I just know I had a conversation with a friend and she was talking about. She was in a room with women in their 70s and 80s and they were so happy. And she's like, I've never been around women who were that age and allowed to see that there could be joy and life in that. And I was like, wow, same. And I remember we had this conversation and I was writing book number two and feeling really, really stuck. But anyways, we connected over that conversation. And then I remember, hung up and then it just came. And this poem, I'd love to read it, please. It kind of just yet dropped from somewhere and I must have changed maybe two or three words, but it was done.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And it came all at once.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Like, as fast as you could ride it.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah. And then you're almost, like, scared it's.

[Interviewer]

Going to run off yeah, it's terrifying.

[Rupi Kaur]

Terrifying. It goes, let's see, timeless. They convinced me I only had a few good years left before I was replaced by a girl younger than me. As though men yield power with age. But women grow into irrelevance. They can keep their lies. For I have just gotten started. I feel as though I just left the womb. My twenties are the warm up for what I'm really about to do now. Wait till you see me in my 30s. That will be a proper introduction to the nasty, wild woman in me. How can I leave before the party started? Rehearsals begin at age 40. I ripen with age. I do not come with an expiration date. And now for the main event, Curtains up at age 50. Let's begin the show.

[Interviewer]

Beautiful. And it's certainly optimistic. Like, it's very empowering.

[Rupi Kaur]

Beautiful. Yeah. It's like one of those. You're like, I mean, I'll take the credit for it, but I don't think I wrote it.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, it just happened.

[Rupi Kaur]

It just happened.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Such a great feeling when it happens. And as we said, it is scary because when you realize you're not in control of it, it can go away. So it's scary.

[Rupi Kaur]

That's what's so scary. Because look, what I'm feeling right now is this readiness of like this book is baking.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

And oh my God, it's so exciting. Like the fluttering excitement is in my hand. Like, you know when you meditate and you can feel the electricity. That's how I feel this book. It's just like right there. And then sometimes I'll go to write and then the feeling just goes away.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

And then I'm like, was that a lie or what is that gap? Is that a lack of skill or. Yeah, I'm trying to, I guess, make sense of it.

[Interviewer]

I don't think there's any rule about it. The two different approaches would be keep doing the same thing until that doesn't happen and it just comes out. And the other one is to just start writing even if the feeling isn't there yet. To kind of get through whatever is in the way. Like write what's in the way out of the way.

[Rupi Kaur]

Right? Yeah.

[Interviewer]

To get to what you want to get to. Bad ideas are helpful because you have to get through those to get to the good ideas.

[Rupi Kaur]

Exactly.

[Interviewer]

And just allow them, don't judge them, move through them.

[Rupi Kaur]

Right. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And you can allow yourself. I'm going to write some things that maybe are not so good and let's just see what comes out. Low expectation.

[Rupi Kaur]

Oh, My God. I know. I mean, the majority of it is just not good, you know? And I just feel like the more that I think you describe it very well, but the more I'm learning, it's almost like it's like creativity is like trying to have faith in God or like religion. It's like I can't exactly put my finger on it and I can't point at it. And there's absolutely no proof.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

But I just have to have faith. And yes, I've always struggled with faith. That's not something I've often really connected with because I'm always like, well, up here. Like, well, does it exist and trying to intellectualize it and make sense of it.

[Interviewer]

It's not intellectual. That's the thing. It's like the intellect gets in the way of it. There's nothing to figure out.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah. It's so true.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. You just start doing it and it reveals itself in time. And you'll surprise yourself at some point, just like you did with timeless. Like, at some point you'll be working on something and you think it's not very good, but you're forcing yourself to do something. And then at some point it's like, hmm, you didn't even know it happened and something really good came out and then you're just on a roll. But it doesn't happen in the head. It's.

[Rupi Kaur]

The head just gets in the way.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

And that's the thing. It's like, I know that.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Rupi Kaur]

And I know that I will always think, well, hopefully not always, but, okay, I'll never write another book again. That's it. And I clearly have thought it and then still done it four times. Then the head always just brings you back to that. Like, I can't or I won't. And then I'm like, okay, here we are again. But then, yeah, I guess it's a dance of, okay, I'm gonna let you say that. I'm gonna let you be you head. And then I'm realizing so much of it is in the heart.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Rupi Kaur]

That's what milk and honey was. It was. It just happened. It was in the heart. Then I got all of this external success, and then I became all head.

[Interviewer]

Because it was, I'm guessing, heart and gut.

[Rupi Kaur]

It's in the body.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, it's in the body. It's not in the head.

[Rupi Kaur]

Then the head's like, oh, now we gotta hold onto this. And now we've gotta talk strategy. And when I started doing that, the results were not great.

[Interviewer]

No.

[Rupi Kaur]

And Then let's see, we're back in the heart again.

[Interviewer]

So I would just say really be kind to yourself and make things and without any expectation, no fear, just have fun doing it. And it won't be a book until you decide it's a book. So everything that happens up until then is just free play. Lower the stakes.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah, exactly. That is something I definitely highlighted because I think my stakes were always, well, if it's not doing all of these things and meeting these external things, then it's a failure. I think that early success can like freeze you sort of in a way. And I am experiencing that. I mean, I think from having that early success, I immediately spent a lot of my 20s kind of trying to run away from this idea of becoming irrelevant. And the fear of irrelevance was like always there. And then now I've entered this quieter space, especially over the last year, you know, and when you're not, I'm not active, I'm not doing anything, I'm not performing, I'm not posting. So like book sales are, they drop. And so. And it's such an interesting thing because actually every single day I'm getting my magic back. I'm connecting with it. But what's terrifying me is what the well meaning people around me are saying, which is, you know, it's okay, rupee, like we just have to change what our idea of success looks like now. Like, it's just we're not gonna sell these many things and you're not gonna be able to this and you're not gonna be able to do that. And I know that they're saying it's a free, free me of whatever they think is holding me down.

[Interviewer]

But it's not helpful.

[Rupi Kaur]

But it's not helpful because you're just like, oh no, you don't even believe in me either.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But no, their intentions are good.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And they're probably wrong and it's okay.

[Rupi Kaur]

Exactly. It's so funny because it all just goes back to the beginning because I'm like, oh, I did all these things that I thought were gonna prove that I can do this. But now I'm feeling like my 19 year old self when I was publishing this thing and then everybody was like, yeah, yeah, it's not gonna work. Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

Which is great. You've experienced people telling you it's not going to work and it worked.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So why would you question that? You know, like you got to experience that, you know, that can happen.

[Rupi Kaur]

I think what I'm afraid of is Knowing very well. The next thing I know I have to just express the thing I meant to express, but it might not work in the commercial sense. And even as I'm saying this, I'm like, well, then I just go on to the next thing.

[Interviewer]

You just keep going.

[Rupi Kaur]

I just keep going.

[Interviewer]

Just keep going. That's it. That's all you can do. And it's the right thing to do. Like, that's what being an artist is. You know, you create stuff, you make it to the best of your ability, you share it with the world, and then you start the next one. And they'll like some of them more than others. On occasion, one will break through. You had the experience of having that on the first one.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Blessing and a curse. You got to see what it can be. But then the expectation is that's what they're all going to be. Can't be.

[Rupi Kaur]

No.

[Interviewer]

But that's fine because it's a long game if you want to do it forever. Just know there'll be ups and downs along the way, and it's fine. The key is staying true to that inner voice, whatever it is, that gut feeling, what you say is churning in you now. Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

That's the truest thing you can follow. There's no strategy in that.

[Rupi Kaur]

No, it's not. You can't apply logic and rationale.

[Interviewer]

No.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

No. Because really, logic and rationale is too small. This is something much bigger.

[Rupi Kaur]

Right. Do you believe that when you're inspired by something that inspiration always lives in you, even if you don't feel it anymore or if you don't catch it at the moment, it's like an idea that's gone and you can't tap back into it.

[Interviewer]

It can't be gone. I would say it's helpful to act on inspiration as quickly as possible.

[Rupi Kaur]

Mm.

[Interviewer]

I think so.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

It doesn't always go away. And maybe sometimes it goes away in your best interest. Like sometimes. Not every signal is a home run signal. You know, we get interested in a lot of things.

[Rupi Kaur]

Right.

[Interviewer]

If you find something that holds your attention for a long time, it's a good sign.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

But sometimes little ideas, insignificant. A moment.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

You overhear a conversation, you hear a few words, think, that's interesting, that could turn into something really important. Whereas there's the great work that you put all this time and energy into and that you think is the great work. And sometimes it's the casual work. You know Mary Oliver, the poet, her most famous poem, someone asked her, how do you write a Poem. And she wrote that as an example. This is how I would do it. No plan of anything. It just fell out of her.

[Rupi Kaur]

Right, right, right.

[Interviewer]

Showing you how to do it.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And that is her most well known of all of the poems she's written over the course of her life.

[Rupi Kaur]

Right, right. It's so funny how that happens. Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

It's like it can completely catch you by surprise.

[Rupi Kaur]

There's this idea that. And I think I would deeply subscribe to it, especially in my 20s and seeing my immigrant parents sort of, you know, work seven days a week, non stop. Like we glamorize work ethic. And you always hear, I think I read something this morning. I think Nicki Minaj was saying something about Ariana Grande. Like, oh, her work ethic and the time she puts in. Is it the hours and the quantity or is it the quality? Or a little bit of both. Because I'm in a place where first I was so obsessed with work, work all the time, and now I've loosened the grip and I'm sort of just observing and experiencing and that feels right to me. But then this other part of my brain says, hmm, well, you're not really putting the hours in, but maybe just by existing and being present. Those aren't the hours.

[Interviewer]

Yes and no. I would say it's a different phase of the work. So there's a phase of just the growth phase, which is what you're in now. Same as like in a garden.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You know, in the growth phase, you're not picking all the fruit off the trees.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

You know, you're, you're letting the growth happen. You're letting life happen.

[Rupi Kaur]

Right.

[Interviewer]

You're seeing things, you're getting inspired. If the growth cycle doesn't do what it needs to do, the dedicated putting the hours in won't mean the same.

[Rupi Kaur]

Right. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I don't know that there's any version where you're not putting the hours in. Even on the first book, when you didn't know you were putting them in, you were still putting them in, you just didn't know it. Cause you were just coming up with the thing to say on stage and then posting it.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah. And the work felt. Yeah, I guess it's like when the growth happens.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

I mean, I was writing and working day in and day out, but it's like a devotional love.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

I could be putting in 12 hours a day, seven days a week, but it's so effortless in that it's the only thing you can do. But I guess when you think that you can do that, all the time stops feeling and you're not in control.

[Interviewer]

That's the other part of it. It's like when it's about the work, you think you're in control of the situation. I could put these hours in and this many hours equals this. It is not true.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

The other side of it is if you're not putting in the hours, it won't happen. So it's like where that balance is. If we were working together, I would give you a homework assignment to write a poem a day for 50 days with the idea of they're not good poems. You just have to write a poem a day. I would have you send me the poem every day. I don't care what it says. And knowing no one will ever read these, they serve no purpose other than practice in turning on the machinery of I'm doing the poet job now. I'm doing my poet workout. I'm not making art. I'm not sharing it with the world. This is something else. I'm just doing my reps. Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

With no expectation other than I did my reps today. I succeeded. And something happens when you use the machinery and get that feeling of every day. I'm doing it and I'm succeeding. At some point the poems start turning good without you doing anything. Just has to.

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[Rupi Kaur]

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[Interviewer]

Do you keep a journal?

[Rupi Kaur]

I do.

[Interviewer]

Tell me about that.

[Rupi Kaur]

Oof. Probably like 12 years ago. 15 years ago.

[Interviewer]

Pre poetry.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah. Pre or around the same time. I have my daily Journal. Not good at writing in it daily, but I bring it everywhere with me. So that's a process I'm still working on. And then I have my poetry journal, much larger, so that it sort of. I could just do a little scribble here and there and there, and then it just catches all of it. But now I'm doing a lot of voice notes because when I edit, I edit out loud because it's almost like song like. And it doesn't traditionally rhyme, but when you hear the performance, you're like, oh. But it kind of does rhyme. So now I'm really enjoying the voice notes as I'm driving. And now they can be transcribed and everything.

[Interviewer]

So during the course of the day, you're driving and you have an idea, you speak it into the phone, and you collect those, and at some point you'll look through those and see if they're.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Pieces.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah. Usually if I'm doing, like a writing day, it starts at a coffee shop or something. I'll open my large journal.

[Interviewer]

Are you by yourself?

[Rupi Kaur]

Yes. And then it's all stream of consciousness and, you know, writing without judgment. And they're either so, so long or they're just little verses here and there. And I keep going until I can't go anymore. And then I circle the few, if any, that I'm like, oh, this is something. Let's see what it can be. Then I transfer that over, and then I start working on it digitally. And I like to keep a draft of every single version, so lots of copy and pasting, because then you can over edit. And then it's like, let's go back. Yeah, for sure.

[Interviewer]

It's great that you recognize sometimes the first one with its imperfections is actually the best one.

[Rupi Kaur]

Exactly. And you can over edit it. And then the soul of it is gone.

[Interviewer]

Tell me something you believe now that you didn't believe when you were young.

[Rupi Kaur]

That great things can happen to me.

[Interviewer]

Isn't that great?

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

That's beautiful.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

How would you say that success has impacted your life? And how has it been different than you thought it would be?

[Rupi Kaur]

Oh, my God. It's completely different than what I thought it would be because I feel like I went through, like, a midlife crisis at 22, because it was suddenly like I had all the things, you know, the things that every author would want, whether it was like coming from a home where we didn't have much financial security at all moments, you were going to lose our home. And then you get financial security and then become super Financially insecure in the brain. Right. And suddenly I was like, oh, wait, you can have all of this and the popularity, and it all still feels empty. Nobody told me that. So what the hell is the point then? So that I wasn't expecting, but I think my favorite part has been able to share with my parents actually. Like, things they would have never seen or had or experienced. I think just giving them comfort has been really nice.

[Interviewer]

Beautiful.

[Rupi Kaur]

I remember the first family trip we went on. It was 2017, and that was. I just finished writing the second book, and so I was like, oh, I think we should go, like, on a family trip. So we went to Jamaica, and my mom said to me, we were in this house kind of in the mountains and looking out, and she said to me, thank you for bringing me here. I didn't even know that a place like this existed. Wow. And it was a bittersweet moment.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

Because you're just, like, whole. Like, I know how most places in the world look. And so I think being able to give and share them.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. You've expanded their experience of what they can see in life.

[Rupi Kaur]

That's beautiful. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

When you start a poem, what happens first? Is it an idea or is it specific words?

[Rupi Kaur]

I think what forms inside is a feeling. And the feeling is the feeling I want to have when I read the thing. And how I think writing that thing is going to free me and how it'll feel in my body. And so that is kind of the thing that happens first. And sometimes a poem. Like one of my most popular pieces was a poem that was on repeat in my head, like an annoying song, for months. Like, three months. And I thought it was so dumb. I was like, I'm not gonna write this down. It's preachy. It's weird. Like, I don't care. So I ignored it. And I ignored it until one day I was like, I just gotta write it down. I gotta get it out of the way so I can go do the thing I want to do.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

And so then I wrote it down, and I see it the next day. I'm like, oh, it's not so bad. And then. And it's probably my most recognized piece, but sometimes it happens like that. Like, right now I'm working on one about leaving a relationship, but the relationship is an island I want to break away from. And so. And it's such a frustrating poem because in my body, it feels so beautiful and painful and lovely, and I can't crack it for months. I can't.

[Interviewer]

So would you say you can picture the scene, but you don't yet have the way to say it.

[Rupi Kaur]

I have the beginning of a woman. She wakes up with this feeling of her lover next to her, and he's still asleep, and he has no idea that she's awake. And she wakes up with this feeling that says, I'm ready to leave the island of this relationship. And then she slips out the front door, past the porch, through the garden with this confidence to finally choose herself. And so she's running and running, and this time she says she's going to do it. She's going to have the courage. But the moment she sees the shore, the courage slips away. And then the fear steps in. And the fear sounds like his voice. And his voice says, you can't live without me. And then his voice sounds so confident that she's never been that confident about anything. And so then she confuses that confidence for truth. And she suddenly doesn't know when. But as she gets into the doubting herself and his voice gets louder, she doesn't know at what moment, her body turns around and suddenly she's walking back home again, you know, past support, through the front door. And then she touches him, hoping that this time she'll feel like, this is it. And what I can't crack is. So she does this again and again. Every morning it's like this. But there comes one morning where something happens where she doesn't wait and she just dives in and there's no fear of uncertainty, and. And she just swims and has no idea what's on the other end. And I'm having trouble finding the words for what that thing that happens is.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. It also feels related to the story of writing, like the fear of coming back to writing. And it feels related in a broader conversation.

[Rupi Kaur]

It does. It does. Yeah. There's a gap of what I want it to be like.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

And my ability to do it.

[Interviewer]

Can you tell me the one that was in your head that you didn't love and that nagged you and eventually.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah, I can. I wish I knew it by heart. I should really give my poems names so that they're easier to look up.

[Interviewer]

How do you do it now? Do they have numbers or nothing?

[Rupi Kaur]

They have nothing. They have, like, just words on here sometimes. Yeah. Footnotes, right? Yeah. For me, it was like, titles kind of get in the way.

[Interviewer]

And it also can tell you more than you want it to say.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

It can be too leading.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah. And it puts it in a box.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

I want to apologize to all the women I've called pretty before. I've called them intelligent or brave. I'm sorry, I made it sound as though something as simple as what you're born with is the most you have to be proud of when your spirit has crushed mountains. From now on, I'll say things like, you are resilient or you are extraordinary. Not because I don't think you're pretty, but because I realize that you are so much more than that. So I just kept playing and playing and I was like, this is so annoying. And it came from this idea that I. I realized that was the compliment that I valued the most and maybe one that I never got. Often I got the, oh, my God, that's. You're so smart and you're so. This.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

But I very much valued, oh, you're so beautiful. You're so pretty. And then the older I got, I was like, that's weird. Why that? Why this thing that I've never worked on that.

[Interviewer]

Why the surface?

[Rupi Kaur]

Yes, exactly. And it landed and I had no idea why.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. And I love the fact that it insisted on you paying attention and almost against your will.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

It won.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

And the audience was happy.

[Rupi Kaur]

The audience was happy.

[Interviewer]

Interesting, right?

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah. It's so much of it. It's like the practice and the work is getting out of your own way.

[Interviewer]

It really is. That's it. That's the key to the whole thing. That's the key to the whole thing. Would you say you're hard on yourself?

[Rupi Kaur]

Oh, my God. So much. But learning to change that narrative and the voice. My inner narrator is my dad. And so we're learning to let that go. It's like an everyday practice. But I'm getting better now because I'm doing the practice every day of catching myself. And I'm like, you're so stupid. Then the other voice says, you're actually not stupid at all. You're great. You're fine. So now that that's changing. Yeah. And allowing more grace.

[Interviewer]

When did the idea of presenting the poems in all lowercase start?

[Rupi Kaur]

It just made sense to me. Ugh. I just feel like capital letters just are not beautiful. And it just. There was a lack of symmetry.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

And so I loved the lowercase. Just design wise. Visually, I thought it was beautiful and it created a lot of calm. And I think it also came from. In Punjabi, we don't have any upper case. There's just one case and it's all quite symmetrical and there's no punctuation. And I went through a period of being like, I wish I could write poetry in Punjabi because there are things that you can express that you just can't do in English. But I wasn't very good at it because even though it's my first language, you know, now I feel like English has become that. But it became a way of me preserving that. And I've since, with the fourth book, introduced capitals, because it wasn't.

[Interviewer]

But it's also not poetry, right?

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah. Yeah. But I think for the poetry, it still makes sense to me.

[Interviewer]

And line spacing. Do you think about that at all?

[Rupi Kaur]

Very much so, because that's the way the poem dances on a stage.

[Interviewer]

Is it the way it looks on the page or the rhythm of what it sounds like?

[Rupi Kaur]

More so the rhythm of what it sounds like and then how it looks. How it looks is important, but it comes second. But it's more so what it sounds like. And so much of the, you know, the poem, especially the ones that are more concise, are the ones that people circulate more. So on social media, it's about removing everything that you can possibly remove to preserve the original idea. I don't know. I don't wanna waste words. Like, let every word work really hard and let it deserve to be there. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I think the other beauty of having less words is it allows the reader to create the image. The more information you give, the less the reader participates.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yes. I think it leaves room for their own story. Right?

[Interviewer]

Exactly.

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah. Probably the biggest critique I get is it's so short, but it just is a feeling that to me, it's the right way.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

Whatever.

[Interviewer]

Whatever feels right is what's right.

[Rupi Kaur]

The short ones are the hardest to write.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

Like the spoken word ones. I'm like, yeah, I could do this. I could. I would have like 50 books written. But the. The short ones, you can't cheat your way to writing those. You really gotta. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Would you say for you the writing is therapeutic?

[Rupi Kaur]

I would say so. It's always been a way to feel closest to myself, a way to process life and find answers to questions that I have. Writing has always felt like a spiritual experience, which is something I had to accept when I was trying to make it very methodical. Like, I must wake up at this time and I must write these many words and it must be. Be every single day. That just wasn't my way. And, you know, it was more. So it was a spiritual dance for me. And that's not something you could put like a timeline on. So.

[Interviewer]

What type of meditation do you do right now?

[Rupi Kaur]

I'm doing a lot of Joe Dispenza.

[Interviewer]

Great.

[Rupi Kaur]

That's what's been speaking to me. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Do you listen to recordings?

[Rupi Kaur]

I do.

[Interviewer]

So it's like guided meditation.

[Rupi Kaur]

It's guided meditation, but his are like. They're guided, but then there's sometimes long periods of time. No guidance.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

So when I first did it, I was like, I don't like this. I used to do more, like, pranayama. Lot of breath work. But I started it at a time I was, like, very depressed and looking for help and anxiety. And when I realized it's working, then I meditated my way into, like, injuring my diaphragm. It was like, so Type A. And like, I'm like, okay, we're gonna do this right? And we're gonna do it really hard. And then I was like, oh, my God. No, this is like the opposite. So when I first did Joe Dispenza earlier this year, I was like, this sounds weird, and his voice is weird. And why does he talk like that? And now I love it. It's so comforting. And sometimes I don't, you know, don't listen to anything at all. I'll just be on a flight and we'll just sort of sink in. The body scanning helps a lot. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Do you remember your dreams?

[Rupi Kaur]

Only the scary ones. Only the scary ones.

[Interviewer]

Do you write them down or.

[Rupi Kaur]

No, I don't. I find that as I wake up, I remember. But the moment I start to write it down because I haven't had the practice.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

It's like, it goes instantly.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Tell me about your relationship to music.

[Rupi Kaur]

I actually find that the music holds the memories and the inspiration. Because sometimes I feel like, oh, no, the inspiration I felt after I went to this event or I did this thing. I didn't capture it, and it's gone. And then I will listen to a song that I was hearing or that was on when I went through a certain thing, and suddenly I'm fully there again and we're back in the. I had that moment while actually on my way here, and there was, like, tears rolling down my eyes. It's a way in. It's like a road back to that thing.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. What was the music on the way here?

[Rupi Kaur]

It was called I Came Here To Leave youe, the song by Charlotte Cardin. And it's about just a woman who meets her partner and is, like, having that conversation. And that's what my next book is about, is that having that conversation, choosing yourself. And I remember listening to that song after I left And I would just, like, walk around West Hollywood, where I lived at the time, just like a crazy person crying. And that song on repeat because it was so, so, so soothing.

[Interviewer]

Typically. Are the poems in the books related to each other?

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah. Cause I think that there's poems, but the book is one poem I see because it's a reflection of one part of the journey or one journey. So the next book is about leaving a partnership. And so all of the poems are related to each other. And then even the way that, you know, they're laid out and organized is, like, all purposeful. And how the poems sort of dance into each other and create a journey and where they lead the reader.

[Interviewer]

Can you imagine writing a book about a celebratory part of life as opposed to a heartbreaking part of life?

[Rupi Kaur]

Yeah, I think even when I'm writing the heartbreaking part of life, half of it is celebratory.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

So that's happening. And then I think the other thing cooking is just one. It's a book just on love, which I've never written. Actually. I found love really hard to write about. I just feel like I always struggled with it doesn't really land, but it's sort of landing for me right now. So I think I'll do one. Just that.

[Interviewer]

How is a poem different when it's read out loud versus when it's read on the page?

[Rupi Kaur]

I know a poem on the page is done when I read it, and by the end, it makes my stomach turn. And then I'm like, oh, we're done here. Like, we can move on to the next one. But performing out loud is celebrating life with other people. And it's so fun. And that's what I always want it to be about. So a lot of women come to my shows and they'll bring, you know, their boyfriends and the guys looks so unhappy to be there. And they're just like, what am I doing here? And I just call it out in the beginning. I'm like, I know you think poetry is so boring. Trust me, I know. I believe those things, too. But I'm like, I promise you're going to have so much fun. And by the end of it, they're like, we love it because they're laughing and they're crying, and I feel like poetry's just been done such a disservice in the west, in the East. I mean, it is a part of everyday life, and every age group is engaged with it. It's given as much space and respect as music and film. And more of, like, mainstream culture. And in the west, it's been, I don't know, put into this corner where most people just think, I don't enjoy it. And I don't know if it's because of the poetry we read in school that we need, like, a hundred literary devices to, like, dissect and understand. But the poetry of the EAS is accessible and actually, quite often, at least in South Asian culture, always performed. It was more often than it was written. It was actually performed out loud. So my grandparents couldn't read or write. My grandma was illiterate, but she participated in poetry her whole life because it was something that happened as a community.

[Interviewer]

Do people in the audience ever say the poems along with you?

[Rupi Kaur]

They do.

[Interviewer]

What's that like?

[Rupi Kaur]

It just makes me want to cry.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

But when it happens, you're just like my babies. I mean, I'm sure, you know, singers experience it, musicians experience it all the time. But, yeah, there are certain poems that they'll finish my lines for me, and it's unbelievable. It feels so, you know, you definitely, like, that's what I want people to know, is that poetry is something that we can all enjoy.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Rupi Kaur]

What I feel is very excited and this deep belief that there is greatness ahead.

[Interviewer]

Yes. And.

[Rupi Kaur]

You know, I think the older we get, uncertainty is scary. So. But to get to that greatness, I can't use the same road that I used that first climb. The road has to be different, and I want it to be different. I'm excited for it to be different. Tetragrammaton is a podcast. Tetragrammatin is a website. Tetragrammaton is a whole world of knowledge.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

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