Tyler Cowen (Part 2)

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin

Episode Title: Tyler Cowen (Part 2)
Date: October 17, 2025

Overview

This episode of Tetragrammaton sees host Rick Rubin in deep conversation with economist, writer, and polymath Tyler Cowen, focusing on the artistic, cultural, and historical significance of choral music—particularly from the 20th century to the present. Cowen acts as an expert guide, sharing rich anecdotes and musical selections, while the conversation explores themes of spirituality, national identity, ritual, and the broader evolution of Western music. The dialogue is interspersed with insightful listening sessions, practical observations, and a genuine reverence for the ways choral music shapes (and is shaped by) society.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Challenge and Depth of Choral Music

• Choral music's complexity: Cowen explains that choral music is often harder to comprehend when recorded (“...if you're there singing it or in a hall and nearby, it makes perfect sense...But when you listen to it on recordings, I find it harder to decipher...”—Cowen, 00:24).
• Linking history, religion, and music: 20th-century choral music reveals deep religious themes, challenging the assumption of a wholly secular century.

Spirituality, Voice, and Participation

• The spiritual in all music: “I think of all music as spiritual, but there does seem to be an obvious direct spiritual component in choral music...” (Listener, 01:57)
• Choral music as communal: Finland serves as a model—choral music reflects its collectivist culture, where amateur/professional lines are blurred and participation is wide (02:17–03:43).

Finnish & National Choral Traditions

• Finnish approach: Finnish choral tradition is serious, deep, and Lutheran—more stripped down than southern European Catholic traditions (02:17–03:43).
• Cosmopolitan influences: Despite its strong national identity, Finnish music is also open to external influences (03:43–05:13).
• Rautavaara’s “Lorca Suite”: A piece fusing Spanish poetry and Finnish choral sensibility, opening with “Malaguena,” and a stark, dynamic second movement “El Grito” (05:13–09:41).

The Role of Lyrics and Language

• Difficulty of lyrics: Words are important in choral music but can be hard to follow, especially across Latin or Finnish (09:47–10:28).

Pillars of Choral Music—National and Historical

• Sibelius’s Legacy: Celebrated as the defining Finnish composer, rooted in national identity and heavily influenced by Wagner, standing against Russian influences (10:39–12:15).
• Russian and Soviet impacts: Russian classical music diverges via Germanic influences but transforms under Soviet oppression (12:48–14:10).
• Contribution from Estonia: Galina Grigorieva’s choral pieces offer a lighter, more traditional Russian/Estonian sound (15:02–17:03).

Major 20th-Century Voices

• Schoenberg: Introduced as the father of atonality and a deeply emotional choral composer (“very haunting,” Cowen, 21:14), blending cultural and spiritual Jewish identity (17:05–22:55).
• Britain’s Benjamin Britten: Positioned as England’s greatest post-Beatles composer, with carols from wartime England that evoke comfort and tradition (24:52–30:32).
• Paul McCartney’s choral works: Ecce Cor Meum blends British choral tradition and McCartney’s melodic style, serving as a memorial for Linda (31:04–35:15).

Renaissance Roots and Church Influence

• Palestrina: The “great grandfather” of Western choral traditions, responding to the Council of Trent by balancing clarity and musicality; foundational for Western music’s evolution (35:38–45:27).
• Early Medieval Choral Music: Parotin and others—music from Notre Dame marking the end of the Dark Ages and a cosmopolitan revival in northern France (47:30–51:24).
• Monteverdi: As a bridge between Renaissance and Baroque, he brings secular stories to the stage and pushes compositional boundaries (54:31–60:02).
• Polyphony’s revolution: Cowen likens the discovery of polyphony to perspective in painting in terms of impact (53:26–54:13).

Contemporary & Experimental Directions

• Caroline Shaw’s “Partita for 8 Voices”: Draws from Buddhist chant, modern silence, and both high and low registers for a dramatic effect (62:39–65:32).
• Kali Malone & Organ Influence: Her recent choral works are praised for their seriousness and innovative blend of old forms with new sound (“passage through the spheres,” 66:27–68:03).
• Arvo Pärt: His minimalist, spiritually resonant work is influential in both sacred and contemporary electronic music circles (“Nunc Dimitis,” 68:54–71:20).
• Kaja Saariaho & Meredith Monk: Presenting the lighter, playful edges of contemporary choral music and avant-garde fusions of tribal, African, and Balinese elements (71:51–75:41).
• Philip Glass: Choral excerpt from Satyagraha links minimalism and 20th-century operatic/spiritual expression (75:40–78:46).

French Choral Tradition and 20th Century Themes

• Fauré’s Requiem: Noted for its sweet, almost comforting approach to death (79:17–83:49).
• Poulenc: Difficult to describe, eclectic influence, composing under occupation, producing deeply emotional pieces tied to liberty and nationhood (84:04–87:03).

Listening Practices and AI

• Cowen’s active listening: He listens both actively and passively, using AI and GPT to deepen understanding and context on historical or musical backgrounds (87:03–88:09).
• Enrichment through context: Adding historical context or AI insights transforms the listening experience, especially with pieces deeply tied to historical events, such as Poulenc’s (87:43–88:09).

Final Reflections:

• Janáček’s Glagolithic Mass: Described as a passionate statement of Czech identity, employing double choir, organ, and folk melodies (88:22–91:10).
• Returning to Palestrina: The episode closes with a substantial return to Palestrina, reaffirming how these Renaissance roots underpin everything heard throughout (91:38–96:22).

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On the interplay of music, culture, and religion:
  “You will think of music and culture and religion all tied together much more closely when you study choral music.” —Tyler Cowen [00:52]
• On choral music’s accessibility:
  “The fact that there are no instruments involved, we all have a voice. It becomes music for everyone.” —Listener [01:57]
• On Finnish music’s temperament:
  “There’s a soberness to the Finnish national temperament, I think, and also to their choral music.” —Cowen [02:58]
• On the lack of memorable melody in atonal music:
  “There are moments in it where I’m pulled in, but I don’t feel like I can remember how it went... you know, it’s not memorable.” —Listener [22:06]
• On Palestrina’s role:
  “If you want to know who’s the great grandfather of all these different choral traditions… Palestrina would be a pretty good pick.” —Cowen [35:53]
• Polyphony as revolution:
  “Probably much like the discovery of perspective in painting.” —Listener [53:44]
• On Monteverdi’s complexity:
  “It’s like pop music, isn’t it? There’s a bit of Indigo Girls in those vocals.” —Cowen [60:47]
• On historical context transforming meaning:
  “Knowing that it makes it entirely different.” —Cowen, upon learning the war-era reason for Poulenc’s choral work [87:53]
• On the limits of understanding music:
  “Well, we never really understand music, but it’s the key to most of the music we listen to.” —Cowen [54:13]

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Notable Musical Excerpts & Timestamps

• Rautavaara’s “Lorca Suite” and the intersection of Finnish/Spanish tradition [05:13–09:41]
• Galina Grigorieva’s Estonian choral music [15:02–17:03]
• Schoenberg’s “Dreimal Tausendra”: Atonal Jewish choral composition [17:05–22:55]
• Britten’s WWII Christmas carols: “This Little Babe” and “Wolcum Yole” [24:52–30:32]
• McCartney’s “Ecce Cor Meum”: Modern British choral work [31:04–35:15]
• Palestrina’s Renaissance masterpieces: “Sicut Cervus,” “Jubilate Deo” [35:38–45:27]
• Parotin’s medieval choral music [47:59–49:41]
• Monteverdi: Vespers & L’Orfeo excerpts [54:31–61:10]
• Caroline Shaw’s “Partita for 8 Voices” [62:42–65:46]
• Kali Malone’s “Passage Through the Spheres” [66:27–68:03]
• Arvo Pärt’s “Nunc Dimitis” [68:54–71:20]
• Kaja Saariaho “Clock Stop” [71:51–73:28]
• Meredith Monk “Ghost Light Chorus” [73:45–75:41]
• Philip Glass “Satyagraha: Tolstoy Farm” [75:57–78:46]
• Fauré “Pie Jesu” from Requiem [79:17–83:49]
• Poulenc “Liberté” [84:02–87:03]
• Janáček “Glagolithic Mass” excerpt [88:22–91:10]
• Palestrina closing work [91:38–96:22]

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Conclusion

This episode is an expert-guided journey through centuries of choral music, exploring its role as a window into spirituality, communal life, history, and innovation. Cowen and Rubin’s appreciation for both esoteric and accessible works, combined with thoughtful discussion and inspired musical choices, makes the episode an enriching primer for newcomers and connoisseurs alike.

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Recommended for:
Listeners interested in music history, choral traditions, the intersection of arts and culture, or anyone curious how communal artistic expression shapes our understanding of the past and present.

End of summary.

Transcript

[Podcast Host]

Tetragrammaton.

[Musicologist or Expert]

I have several reasons for being especially interested in choral music. The first is, I think a lot of it is much harder to comprehend. So if you're there singing it or in a hall and nearby, it makes perfect sense. You see and hear all the voices. But when you listen to it on recordings, I find it harder to decipher, no matter how good the sound quality is. And thus the gains to talking some of it through maybe are higher. You listen to Beethoven's fifth, in a sense, it's always hitting you over the head with what's going on. Choral music very often doesn't do that. But there's another, deeper, more historical reason why I'm interested in it. I think if you study choral music, And I mean now, 20th century choral music, you will understand the 20th century artistically and historically in very different terms. So we often think of the 20th century as a pretty secular century or a secularizing century. But so many of the top composers were deeply religious or they were into religious music and religious ideas. And you hear that most clearly in their choral music. So it changes how you view, I think, all music and our own history. And you will think of music and culture and religion all tied together much more closely when you study choral music. And it gives you some ways of thinking about why maybe in some ways there's not as much truly great classical music today because we're more secular would be one reason. And we don't have so many very active composers right now doing the same, though some of the people we'll listen to are still alive and we'll talk about that.

[Listener or Student]

I think of all music as spiritual, but there does seem to be an obvious direct spiritual component in Carl music that we don't always see in the other music we listen to. Also, the fact that there are no instruments involved, we all have a voice. It becomes music for everyone.

[Musicologist or Expert]

And this is related to our topic of Finland. Choral music in Finland is especially important. And this relates to what you just said. Finland is a somewhat culturally collectivistic place. People do things together. I think on average, it makes them happier. For my tastes, it makes them a bit too socialistic. But forget about that. You walk around Helsinki, you just see people playing in parks. They're always in groups. There's communal activity. And if you ask what's the best form of music for a culture obsessed with communal activity, it's choral music. So there's a lot of very good Finnish choral music. Also, they're almost completely Lutheran, so there's a strong Lutheran tradition of being interested in choral music. And it tends to be a kind of stripped down choral music, unlike some of the Catholic traditions, which are more jubilante, exultant and so on. So there's a soberness to the Finnish national temperament, I think, and also to their choral music. Their churches can be quite plain and that's reflected in the music. And it's just a wonderful place for thinking about very serious forms of music. And it's maybe other than Japan, the place in the world today where classical music is still taken the most seriously and done actively as a thing, including by young people.

[Listener or Student]

When you hear choral music sung in a church, is it uncommon for people to sing along? People sing along, people do sing along.

[Musicologist or Expert]

In Finland in particular, the distinction between professional and amateur singers is blurred, which I think is very healthy. So Southern Europe, it's more likely sort of who is a professional singer and who's not. You're one or the other. But the notion that everyone participates is again, not just the music, but in the culture more generally. And another interesting thing about Finnish music, Finland, of course is a pretty small country and it hasn't even been a country for that long, historically, often ruled by what we now call Russia. Very open to Germanic influences, musics from all over the world. So it's both extremely national and nationalistic, but also cosmopolitan. The first piece we're going to listen to, it's by a composer named Rotavara, who died about 10 years ago. And it's a choral piece, but in this we'll see the influence of Spanish music. So he did something called the Lorca Suite. We're only going to hear parts of it. It's about six and a half minutes long, typically. And Federico Garcia Lorca was a poet from the Spanish Civil War. He was executed, I think, 1936. A heroic figure to Rautavara, and his poems are full of blood and tragedy and passion. So you have a Finnish composer, Rautavara, who you would think of as lush and romantic and earlier in his career a kind of cool, remote sound, but mixing that with something pretty rhythmic and also Spanish.

[Listener or Student]

I believe Lorca was a big influence on both Leonard Cohn and Donovan.

[Musicologist or Expert]

That's right. A brilliant poet and of course a tragic case that he was killed. Route of Era's first name, it's E I N O J U H A N I Finnish names. Very non intuitive for us and even Route of our to remember where to put the double A's. So it's R A U T A V double A R A But you want to put the double A's at the beginning, at the end, but no, the double A's go in the middle. Finnish names. I never remember properly how to spell them, how to say them. Just an occupational hazard. But it shows what a distinct language and culture they have.

[Listener or Student]

Do we know why the Finnish language is so distinct?

[Musicologist or Expert]

It's most closely related to Hungarian, which is also distinct. There are basically no cognates in either Hungary or Finland. Hungarian and Finnish are pretty different, but they're at least related. Many people think it has indirect ties to Turkish and some people say even Japanese. Some of the far north indigenous languages of Russia. Some have claimed. I don't know the whole arrangement here, but it's not like a Romantic or Germanic language at all. I think the only cognates are like hotel and taxi and the rest you're on your own. You know, use GPT, buy a guidebook, whatever. But in fact, they all speak great English. More people in Helsinki speak good English, say, than in New York City.

[Listener or Student]

Wow.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Anyway, this piece is a little more than a minute. This is the Spanish movement. It's called Malaguena, which of course relates to flamenco in Spanish. Qatar.

[Choral Singer or Vocalist]

Jam. Sam.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Any reactions?

[Listener or Student]

It reminds me of certain dramatic movie music that uses Carl, but it doesn't feel as connected to the church as I'm used to in this music.

[Musicologist or Expert]

It's a bit hard to place, isn't is?

[Listener or Student]

It's also very dynamic, quickly dynamic, which seems to be more unusual. It doesn't do a slow build to a big crescendo. It's loud, soft, loud, soft all the way through.

[Musicologist or Expert]

I'll play you a little snippet from movement two of the same piece. This movement is called El Grito, which means in Spanish, the scream. And it will be a scream. It's a disconcerting movement and not obviously very finished, but it is.

[Choral Singer or Vocalist]

Sam.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Anyway, you heard the scream, right?

[Listener or Student]

Absolutely, yeah. Beautiful. How important are the words in Carl music?

[Musicologist or Expert]

They are, but it's very hard to get a handle on them. That's one reason why it's more difficult to love it or come to terms with it. Often you can know the themes but not the words. And a lot of Finnish choral music is in Finnish. A lot of other choral music is in Latin, which I don't understand. I pick up some bits through Spanish. A good thing to do is just ask a large language model what's going on in this verse, and it will tell you it's very good at interpreting music for you. But to follow it all Word for word. It can be tough. On YouTube, there's a lot of choral pieces where there's subtitles and that's useful. But then, of course, you have to read also, and you're not just listening.

[Listener or Student]

Yeah.

[Musicologist or Expert]

So it's one of the problems.

[Listener or Student]

How would you describe the particularities of Finnish music as opposed to other traditions?

[Musicologist or Expert]

More serious, extremely deep. Often influenced by Wagner. Sibelius is this overarching influence, the most important cultural figure in all of Finland. You know, the Sibelius and the Kalevala, which is a written text. And if you know those two things, you're so centrally culturally located in Finland with only two items, because they dominate so much of Finnish cultural life and it demands your attention. Finnish music.

[Listener or Student]

Do you know when Sibelius was. What was his time?

[Musicologist or Expert]

His first pieces are done in the 1890s. I think he's born in the 1860s, when, by the way, Finland was still a part of Russia and he helped build a Finnish national identity. His first symphony, I think, is 1899. An interesting story. His last one, I think it's 1926, but he lives till 1957.

[Listener or Student]

Wow.

[Musicologist or Expert]

So there's 30 years. It's sort of like Stevie Wonder, where he doesn't really do anything. His talk of alcoholism. He had sketches for an eighth symphony. He published seven. He destroyed the sketches for the eighth symphony. Nothing is left of it that we know of. And he just was the grand old man for decades and did not create music. And there were no signs of that as a pattern earlier. He was pretty prolific, did a lot of works. I would say he peaked in his 20s, so I think his late symphonies 4 through 7 and the violin Concerto, that's his most important work, totally central to 20th century music and to Finland.

[Listener or Student]

Do we think of Sibelius as a Finnish composer or do we think of him as a Russian composer?

[Musicologist or Expert]

Finnish, Absolutely. And he thought of himself that way. And you could say he rebelled against Russia. And the main late symphonies, they open with Wagnerian motifs. You hear it like, one knows enough at this point. But if you didn't know better, you just think, oh, this is some weird Wagner I hadn't heard before. And then it morphs into other things. But if anything, he's more influenced by German music than anything from Russia.

[Listener or Student]

Is that the case with much Russian music or no. Is Russian music traditionally rooted in Germanic music or.

[Musicologist or Expert]

No, it's highly influenced by Germanic culture and music, but it takes its own directions and it's less orderly, I would say, as a whole. So you can't follow a Tchaikovsky piece in the same way you can a Beethoven piece, and it becomes maybe weirder and more mystical by the time you get to Scriabin and just dreamy. And then after the Bolsheviks come, there's so much suppression. And you have some great composers, Shostakovich, schnitka. But they're fighting very hard to compose at all. And schnitka leaves for Germany, of all places. Schnitka actually was a Volga German. He grew up speaking a language called Volga German, which is a weird dialect of German. He tried to compose under the Soviets. He did quite a bit. It was often out of fashion. He faced a lot of risks and he ended up being able to leave the country. And Shostakovich paid heed to Stalin, which he was criticized for, but we learned later on he was not so patriotic after all, and actually secretly viewed a lot of the music as being critical of Stalin. But the fact that he had to do that shows you what a tough environment it was. So Soviet slash Russian music dies out somewhat with the Bolsheviks. Estonia, small country, but it becomes an important place. I'll play a piece of Estonian music which is cheerier than a lot of Finnish music.

[Choral Singer or Vocalist]

And.

[Musicologist or Expert]

And this is a female composer. She's still alive. Galina Grigorieva. She was born in what is now Ukraine, though then was just Soviet Union. Spent most of her composing time in Estonia. This is a series of pieces she composed to celebrate Russian. Getting to the point of what's Russian. Russian holidays ranging from, you know, Christmas to Epiphany. And there are different pieces for different holidays. Holidays. I enjoy her music quite a bit. And this is a good recording. Paul Hillier, who does great choral work. Here we go. A bit shorter than two minutes.

[Choral Singer or Vocalist]

J? Ra? SA.

[Musicologist or Expert]

They'Re basically singing Glory. Fun piece, isn't it?

[Listener or Student]

It's beautiful. It seems like it's two notes back and forth. It's less melodic and less complex. Yes. And it sounds more traditional.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Yes. And it's based on a lot of old Russian polyphony and church music more than the finishes, which is more through the Germanic classical tradition.

[Listener or Student]

It's beautiful that music like this is still being written.

[Musicologist or Expert]

It is, yeah. And I don't know how old she is, but she's not very old. She's more or less at her peak now. And that's Galina Grigorieva.

[Listener or Student]

Fantastic.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Let's go back to a somber piece. And this is something from the Jewish tradition. This is Arnold Schoenberg. You could call him the father of atonal music. And he did a choral piece. It's called Dreimal Tausendra.

[Listener or Student]

Did he do much choral work?

[Musicologist or Expert]

There's two CDs worth, is how I think about it. He was not an incredibly prolific composer, so two CDs worth is a fair amount. And he cared about the choral music a lot. It was many of his most emotional pieces. And this is in Hebrew, and it's a historical set of memories about sufferings of the Jewish people over time. And here we go. This is, I think, two and a half minutes. I'm not sure. It's fairly short, but it will have very little melody. It's close to purely atonal, though. Like a lot of Schoenberg, it's never quite just the 12 tones. There's always hints of melody. And he pulls it away from you and teases you a bit, and it goes on and it keeps on morphing into different things. And I find it very, very sad.

[Choral Singer or Vocalist]

Ram. Ram.

[Listener or Student]

Mercy.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Very haunting.

[Listener or Student]

Yeah. Where did he live and work?

[Musicologist or Expert]

Well, he was from Vienna, but he had to leave. He was Jewish, for one thing, and he wrote that piece. I think he was in Los Angeles, but he was in the United States, and he lived in Los Angeles the latter part of his life.

[Listener or Student]

And what year is this, Approximately?

[Musicologist or Expert]

From the 30s. It's mid-30s, I think, and he was already in LA by then.

[Listener or Student]

Was there a philosophy associated with the atonal movement?

[Musicologist or Expert]

The idea that a new music would be built from scratch based on new principles and that he was the one to do it. And like all such system builders, he was never that consistent. And in part, he was great because he was not totally consistent. That piece, as you heard, it's not completely atonal, but it teases you. Yeah. And it's hard to follow, but you're always in pursuit of it in an interesting way.

[Listener or Student]

There are moments in it where I'm pulled in, but I don't feel like I can remember how it went, you know, it's not memorable.

[Musicologist or Expert]

That's right.

[Listener or Student]

But it does create a feeling.

[Musicologist or Expert]

And it's short enough that I think it works in those terms. Another famous Schoenberg choral piece is Survivor from Warsaw, which we're not going to listen to. But his choral pieces are very historical and emotional and related to Judaism and his own life.

[Listener or Student]

Are they more cultural or spiritual pieces?

[Musicologist or Expert]

I don't know whether he believed in God. He identified with being Jewish very strongly. So spiritual and cultural. I'm not sure they're truly theological at all. And to me, they don't sound theological, they sound cultural.

[Listener or Student]

And that seems unusual for choral music.

[Musicologist or Expert]

That's right. And that's one of my favorite pieces of 20th century choral music. I think it's just perfect in how much it tries to do and how much it accomplishes.

[Listener or Student]

It does feel very efficient. A lot happens in a short period of time.

[Musicologist or Expert]

That's right. Like most of his best pieces.

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[Musicologist or Expert]

Now let's try something English. Benjamin. Britain after the Beatles, England's greatest composer. And this is related to World War II. These are two pieces. I believe they're from 1942 and we're going to go back to something a little cheerier. The first one is called A Little Babe and that refers of course to Christ. So this is 1942. Very grim wartime years for England. The Blitz is on. It's not yet obvious who's going to win the war. Britain is on some kind of ship and I think he's writing cheery pieces for the people back home is my guess. So there's a bunch of Christmas carols. They're all short. We're going to hear two of them. The first is this Little Babe, which I think is the most interesting one. And after that we'll hear what I consider to be the cheeriest one. Here's this little babe.

[Choral Singer or Vocalist]

Jes sa I must return and it's my brother.

[Listener or Student]

How popular was he in the uk?

[Musicologist or Expert]

He was their composer for decades. Very talented man. He was an incredible conductor and also pianist. His recordings of other people's music, like he conducted the Brandenburg and Charity. They're fantastic. He did Schubert's Winterize with Peter Pears, who was his male lover. He was gay and that shaped his life in a number of ways. It's maybe still the best version of Interreise. And as a pianist, he just had everything perfect for Schubert, so the depth of his musical understanding across genres was fantastic.

[Listener or Student]

And you said these pieces are Christmas pieces.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Yes.

[Listener or Student]

It's funny, as we were listening, I felt like this sounds a little bit like a jingle, and I never made the connection before. Is there any connection between the idea of a jingle and Christmas music?

[Musicologist or Expert]

Of course. And the piece we're about to hear, you'll hear this even more clearly. And he's taking the lyrics and maybe even some of the ideas from medieval or Renaissance English tunes that were never quite codified, but they're in the culture, maybe as Christmas songs in some way. And that's what he wanted to build out his own version of, because he thought, I believe, that people would recognize them, respond to them, feel comfortable again. So this one is called welcome Yol, which is Medieval English. What it really means is welcome Yule. But like reading Chaucer in medieval English, it's different. So it's spelled W O L C U M space, Y O L, E. But it's just saying welcome Yule. Welcome Christmas. And this is his most melodic Christmas carol, I think. Also a pretty short piece. You know, these are best with harp accompaniment, but not everyone has a harp, so some recordings is piano. To me, that's worse. This is with harp done properly. Here goes.

[Choral Singer or Vocalist]

SA J.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Clearly a jingle of sorts, right?

[Listener or Student]

Yeah. Very unusual note choices, unexpected notes.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Yeah. It reminds me of a lot of popular music so far.

[Listener or Student]

Of everything you've played, he sounds the most contemporary, the most normal. The music is the most contemporary.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Yes.

[Listener or Student]

It also has elements that sound like what you might hear on Broadway today.

[Musicologist or Expert]

That's right. I also have this vision in my mind. I imagine Paul McCartney hearing that and thinking, I can do this. And as I'm sure you know, Paul wrote three big choral works. And we'll hear an excerpt from one of them.

[Listener or Student]

Great.

[Musicologist or Expert]

This is Ecce Cormium. It's a very accessible work. It's not sung by Paul. It reminds me a bit of the earlier Wing song, My Love, Just in the Mood. But he wrote this. It's about 25 years ago. It was after Linda passed away and it was a memorial to her. And it's sort of like, you know, Of My Heart, From My Heart is the underlying theme of the whole choral work. And it will sound a bit like some British choral music you'll hear a little bit of written in it. But it's also McCartney. Yeah. And singing here is Kate Royal, who I think does a nice job with it.

[Choral Singer or Vocalist]

SA no, but it goes to show something. Is there. Sam Ram.

[Listener or Student]

How unusual is it to have a solo voice in a Carl work?

[Musicologist or Expert]

It's common and we'll hear some more of that as we go on, but religiously, it's a very distinct choice. And this was actually controversial in history because you're elevating an individual over maybe the message of the church or the Bible, and that became very complicated. I'll play you a cut in a moment that gets at some of those points. How much McCartney do you hear in that?

[Listener or Student]

Not so much, honestly.

[Musicologist or Expert]

I hear a lot of Andrew Lloyd Webber, some Britain. The soaringness. There's a McCartney element in it. And some of the modulations in the melody, like I said, reminds me of my love. But Paul did something different to me. Very impressive. It's a beautiful song.

[Listener or Student]

When I think of Paul's songs, they're so classically structured pop songs, and this doesn't do that. So that's something I look for in his work that he's the master of, and it's not a part of this form, So I guess that's what I'm looking for from him.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Just impressive that he can do it at all.

[Listener or Student]

It's incredible that he can do it.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Yeah. We'll get back to contemporary in a moment, but let's go back in history and just see some of the roots of all of this. And this also gets to the point about church dogma. So there's an Italian composer, Palestrina, who's maybe the most important figure in Renaissance polyphony and counterpoint. And he did a lot of his key works in the 1580s. There's one called Secret Service we're going to hear. I think it's from the 1580s. But Palestrina, he also was responding to the Council of Trent. The Council of Trent was a Counter Reformation movement from Italy, and people were worried that the church music was getting so jubilant and so glorious and so much fun that it was obscuring the underlying messages of the texts. So historians have written that he considered himself faced with these strictures, that he had to keep the texts very clear and also be musical. So some of his music from this period is interpreted as an attempt to do those two things. But if you want to know who's the great grandfather of of all these different choral traditions, if you had to pick a person, Palestrina would be a pretty good pick. And let's hear some of that. It will be very different, of course, and not at all contemporary. Secret Service, one of his better known pieces.

[Choral Singer or Vocalist]

Sa Sam Ram Ram Jam Sam.

[Listener or Student]

I love that. Incredible.

[Musicologist or Expert]

So much of Western music is built on those foundations. Also.

[Listener or Student]

I can hear the Beach Boys and Bach. The moving bass line and the strength of the harmony. And I suppose the more avant garde pieces that we've listened to make more sense. If we've been saturated in music like this, then the anomalies of the modern are interesting. But if we're not so well versed in this, the modern music seems less important. The modern music works in contrast to this being ubiquitous.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Yes, exactly. It all makes more sense when you study a bit of this.

[Listener or Student]

Yes, I love hearing this. Yeah, I'd love to hear more.

[Musicologist or Expert]

And Palestrina, He's a very consistent composer. You don't have to know which is the best piece, really. You can just put it on and it can play for hours. And he composed a lot and it's all excellent.

[Listener or Student]

Can we hear another piece of his?

[Musicologist or Expert]

Sure, let's try one a little more exuberant. How about Jubilate Dio? And these are in Latin, of course, but the texts are very traditional. Whether or not he wanted to do it that way, it was forced upon him. Motet for eight voices.

[Choral Singer or Vocalist]

Sa Ra Sa.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Ra Ra.

[Choral Singer or Vocalist]

There.

[Listener or Student]

Were pieces like this sung in church or were they sung in concert halls?

[Musicologist or Expert]

Church, Completely church. I mean, churches were concert halls in a sense.

[Listener or Student]

And it was part of the church service.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, at that time, you know, there would have been, I think by then, opera houses in Venice, but basically no concert halls to speak of. And even in Venice, I'm not sure exactly when those places are opening for concerts. Music was church music in this sense.

[Listener or Student]

And are the words directly biblical?

[Musicologist or Expert]

I think they're usually the church processing biblical texts and making them more repetitive and ironing them out and of course, turning it into Latin. And it's for mass services, so they're typically boring.

[Listener or Student]

The lyrics, do you think the lyrics were thought of as meditations?

[Musicologist or Expert]

Maybe, but I think a lot of the process was pretty bureaucratic. So the church had a lot of the money. The church would tell people, here's what you have to do. They would pay you more than anyone else. Here is your chance to write some great music. Get paid for it. You just had to follow the rules. You probably believed in God, you didn't mind the words they were making you use, and you didn't know really that much else. So why not do it would be my hypothesis.

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[Musicologist or Expert]

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[Listener or Student]

What are the oldest known Karl works?

[Musicologist or Expert]

I don't know. We can go back earlier, do some parotin. We know the ancient Greeks had choral music, but we don't have any record of what it was. But this is medieval. We'll hear just a little bit from this piece.

[Choral Singer or Vocalist]

Sa.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Pretty amazing, isn't it?

[Listener or Student]

Yeah. When is it from?

[Musicologist or Expert]

That would have been, I'm guessing 1200. So turn of the 13th century. And he worked in Notre Dame, like the same one that, you know, we still visit. So people would go to Notre Dame, an earlier version of it and they would perform that. Sing it or hear it. Let's just hear a little more. But it's incredible music. He's the first major composer I find interesting and some of it verges on being a little bit atonal even. Not this part right here, but incredible, isn't it?

[Listener or Student]

I love it.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Yeah.

[Listener or Student]

Do we think of that period as the Dark Ages, or is this after the Dark Ages?

[Musicologist or Expert]

It's after the Dark Ages and it's a kind of proof that it's after the Dark Ages. And the fact that it's in Notre Dame, which is truly beautiful church, is further proof, I think of the Dark Ages as definitely over by the year 1000, but that's debated. But think of the Dark Ages as sort of the 5th through the 9th century or a bit more at their peak. And then medieval times star. People use water power, wind power more, there's more economic growth. People start returning to cities. The church does a lot more things. Activities become more businesslike. So much of the Great early music. It's centered in northern France. It's sometimes called Franco Flemish because it can border, you know, with Belgium a bit later. You know, Italy is significant. So Palestrina, that's in Rome, but that's the Renaissance. But great medieval music is Franco Flemish. And northern France is such an important place for the revitalization of Western civilization and all of music history. It comes from northern France.

[Listener or Student]

It sounds cosmopolitan, and it is.

[Musicologist or Expert]

And my wife and I did a trip this summer. We visited a bunch of the churches in northern France, like Reims and Amiens and Notre Dame, where this music was created and sung and the churches were built. And those churches to this day are among mankind's most beautiful creations. Many are quite intact, and the music is incredible. And that this all happened at once, coming out of the Dark Ages. Just this amazing power of how the world can change and for the better.

[Listener or Student]

Any other pieces from this era that we can listen to?

[Musicologist or Expert]

Let's try some show. Forgive my pronunciations of all these foreign names. They're never good. SA Anyway, he's born in 1300 in Reem, France, which is where I visited this summer. Even saw the cathedral where he worked and wrote. I find Perrotin more interesting, but he's still quite good and extremely important. And again, it's the northern France thing for the early music.

[Listener or Student]

Do we know when polyphony first came into existence?

[Musicologist or Expert]

The Franco Flemish? So people like Joss Quinn, who was the very first. I don't know. It's one of these Tri Google or GPT questions. I don't know that we would know the very first. And it's maybe somewhat a matter of degree, but it's late medieval times in the Franco Flemish regions.

[Listener or Student]

I just think about what a revolution that must have been, because before that, I imagine it was all singing together in a song. And probably much like the discovery of perspective in painting.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Yes.

[Listener or Student]

It's a revolutionary shift like that.

[Musicologist or Expert]

It makes everything else possible.

[Listener or Student]

Yeah.

[Musicologist or Expert]

And we're still running with it. Right. It's not at all exhausted.

[Listener or Student]

Not at all. Yeah, not at all. It almost feels like it's a key to something bigger that we don't fully understand.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Well, we never really understand music, but it's the key to most of the music we listen to. And that they did it for the first time and you can still go see the places. Blows my mind.

[Listener or Student]

Did you get to hear any music in these places?

[Musicologist or Expert]

Yeah, absolutely. And choral music.

[Listener or Student]

Wow. Yeah, Beautiful.

[Musicologist or Expert]

It was incredible. Several times. Let's do a bit of Monteverdi. Since we're in the past. Now he's leading into Baroque. But he would be also one of the most important composers of all time.

[Listener or Student]

When was Monteverdi?

[Musicologist or Expert]

He's before Bach. So he's very much a transitional figure between Renaissance music and Baroque. He's unique, but he's more Baroque than Renaissance.

[Listener or Student]

Is Bach the beginning of Baroque?

[Musicologist or Expert]

He's the peak of Baroque, you could say. Peak of everything maybe, but not the beginning. He's building on a lot of other people. And Monteverdi is working in northern Italy, so he's in residence at Mantua. And the Duke pays his salary and he composes some of the world's greatest music. And it's interesting because a lot of what he does is secular. So he does a two hour opera, l', Orfeo, based on the myth of Orpheus, which is the ancient world. So that it's acceptable for the top composers to not just be doing religious music is part of Monteverdi's revolution. And his works were played in the opera houses in Venice, which is an economic powerhouse at the time. And he was really a big deal and he was of a protected man because of his patronage. He did a two hour work called Vespers, which I once heard in the Spanish church in Santiago de Compostela live. One of the best concerts I ever heard. We'll just hear small excerpt from the beginning, but it's one of his greatest works. And this is choral and religious rather than secular. This is Raphael Pichon, the French conductor.

[Choral Singer or Vocalist]

Sa.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Jesus. Let's fast forward a bit.

[Listener or Student]

So beautiful.

[Choral Singer or Vocalist]

Sa glory.

[Musicologist or Expert]

I'm going to revise my earlier answer and say that's more Renaissance than Baroque. Let's hear tiny bit from his secular opera, the Orio. Just you get a sense of his range. It's drawing on some medieval modes, but it's in some ways more complex than Palestrina. It's more modern, it's exuberant, it's entertaining. It's only 30 years later. Wow. So that's like 16, 10 or so.

[Listener or Student]

It sounds more narrative based. It's telling a story.

[Musicologist or Expert]

And it's an opera. Yeah, yeah. And it is a story and it's a work for the stage. It's theater. But Monteverdi you can always listen to. Let me see if I can find one of the soprano duets for you. And a Kirkby. Those are lovely pieces.

[Listener or Student]

We're lucky that this stuff exists.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Yeah. Secular again.

[Listener or Student]

This sounds really English and modern.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Leading into Vivaldi and Bach. The style in part.

[Choral Singer or Vocalist]

Sa.

[Listener or Student]

Beautiful and.

[Musicologist or Expert]

It'S like pop music, isn't it?

[Listener or Student]

It really is.

[Musicologist or Expert]

There's a bit of Indigo Girls in those vocals. So Monteverdi is one of my go to composers. You can put on virtually anything. The Madrigals are incredible. You know, I still buy CDs. I think it's eight or nine volumes of them. Every piece is gorgeous. Just can't mess with him.

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[Musicologist or Expert]

Shall we try something contemporary again?

[Listener or Student]

Okay.

[Musicologist or Expert]

This is maybe my favorite active contemporary composer. Her name is Caroline Shaw and this was her breakthrough piece. It's a partita for eight voices and she's still at her peak. Let's hear some. The piece is too long, but some is the partita for eight voices. And this is, I think from 2014, not long ago.

[Choral Singer or Vocalist]

Ham. Ham.

[Musicologist or Expert]

What strikes you?

[Listener or Student]

What strikes me is the use of silence. And from a technical standpoint, the kind of silence that we hear in that is a very modern silence because it's a digital silence. In the days of recording with tape, you would never get a silence that silent in between music. You could view it as an advantage. It's less natural, but it's very dramatic in this piece.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Eastern influence, Buddhist influence. The whole om is in there. Schoenberg influence. She's not afraid to challenge your ears and do things that some people won't like. Not afraid to go into the higher registers that not everyone likes.

[Listener or Student]

The low end is really dramatic and powerful.

[Musicologist or Expert]

In a funny way, it's like techno, that there's a lot in the high and the low. I wonder if there's some metal influence in there. Even the way it just pushes on you. It's a great work. It's about 20 minutes long, I think.

[Listener or Student]

Beautiful.

[Musicologist or Expert]

And that's the opening of it. She mostly does things for chamber music, but a very versatile composer. And she's one of these people like. Everything she does is interesting. And it's all. Each piece is different from the other, which is very hard to pull off, I think. Do you know who Collie Malone is?

[Listener or Student]

I do.

[Musicologist or Expert]

And do you know Stephen o'? Malley?

[Listener or Student]

I do not.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Well, that's her husband. You know the group Sun S U N N?

[Listener or Student]

Yes.

[Musicologist or Expert]

They're amazing, right?

[Listener or Student]

Yeah.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Well, she's married to Stephen o'. Malley.

[Listener or Student]

I didn't know that.

[Musicologist or Expert]

And a lot of what she does is very organ heavy. Very serious music, just goes at you. But she has a choral piece that I like, quite recent, and we'll hear just a bit of it.

[Listener or Student]

She tours the world playing on the great organs, playing music that is not typically played in these places that have these organs.

[Musicologist or Expert]

This is called Passage through the Spheres. It's a choral piece and you'll see a lot of influence from these earlier musics, which she's making more current. This is, I think, seven minutes. We'll just hear a minute or two of it.

[Listener or Student]

Fantastic.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Isn't it great?

[Listener or Student]

Yeah. I've only heard her organ work before. That's spectacular.

[Musicologist or Expert]

She did it a year or two ago. Super current. I forget when, but it's very recent.

[Listener or Student]

Fantastic.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Yeah. All her work is great, I think, but that's one of my favorites. Now, given the connection between contemporary Renaissance, medieval arvo part, we need to discuss and play a little of. So he's Estonian, and what's interesting about listening to him, I'm never quite sure if he's pulling my leg or not. So it's early music, but it's also minimalism, and it goes back and forth between the two. Super influential composer. And a lot of people who listen to electronica like him. He's been very influential, I think, on contemporary electronic music. Or people play this, you know, at the end of a rave or something.

[Listener or Student]

He's one of my favorites.

[Musicologist or Expert]

There's a piece we'll hear a bit Nunc Dimitis. It's one of his best known pieces. And this is from the Gospel of Luke. It's a very positive piece. And there's a moment in the Gospel of Luke or Simeon meets the Baby Jesus, and basically says euphemistically, you know, now I can die, now I can diminish because I've seen what there was to see. Well, here, just a little bit of Him. This is from eight. They're a great group for quarrel.

[Choral Singer or Vocalist]

Sam. Jam to.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Lovely piece, isn't it?

[Listener or Student]

I could listen to that all day.

[Musicologist or Expert]

And it's one of the best performances of. Of vocal music. There's such an incredible group.

[Listener or Student]

Spectacular.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Just the quality of the singing may be the best thing we've heard so far, I feel.

[Listener or Student]

Yeah. Transcendent Spectacular.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Yeah. There's like a 12 CD box set of part that I have. I just keep on listening to different parts. If I recall, he started in the Soviet Union and he managed to get out. I think it was either to Sweden or Finland. And then went back to Estonia when it was later free.

[Listener or Student]

I love his music.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Now that was a serious piece. Let's do a short bit of a non serious piece just for contrast. This is also finished. Kaya Sariaho. She died, I think just two or three years ago. She's best known as an opera composer. Encompassed a lot of styles and she wrote this one piece for children. Short piece, choral piece. It's just called something like Clock Stop. Not really one of her better known pieces of music. But I think contrast is important in such enterprises as doing what is in essence a mixtape. Again, this is a piece for kids.

[Choral Singer or Vocalist]

Sam. Sa.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Kid singing it. Fun piece, you know, it's like tossing in Yellow Submarine on your mixtape or something.

[Listener or Student]

Yeah, it's very good.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Yeah, she's very talented.

[Listener or Student]

Do you have any Meredith Monk?

[Musicologist or Expert]

I like her a lot.

[Listener or Student]

What do we know about her?

[Musicologist or Expert]

Part of the New York avant garde for a long period of time. Let's try Ghost Light Chorus. I don't know if I know it, but it must be a choral work. Here we go.

[Choral Singer or Vocalist]

Sam.

[Musicologist or Expert]

African, Balinese, right?

[Choral Singer or Vocalist]

Yeah.

[Listener or Student]

Tribal.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Yeah.

[Listener or Student]

And active. Probably the most active thing we've heard.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Yeah. Fun piece.

[Listener or Student]

Beautiful.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Yeah. I'm sure the visuals are good when you're there seeing it. We heard some Meredith Monk. Want to hear just a snippet of Philip Glass, please. Choral piece.

[Listener or Student]

Why not?

[Musicologist or Expert]

Quite famous. Maybe too famous for our purposes, but it's always good to throw in.

[Listener or Student]

It's such a fringe part of the music world that even the best known pieces are relatively unknown.

[Musicologist or Expert]

This is from Satyagraha, which is about Gandhi, of course. Act one, Tolstoy Farm. We'll hear some of the choral sequence and I'm sure you'll recognize this.

[Choral Singer or Vocalist]

Sa Sam. Ram Sam.

[Musicologist or Expert]

It goes on and on, but of course that's incredible music.

[Choral Singer or Vocalist]

Great.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Yeah. I once saw that in Metropolitan Opera in New York. I was in the second row. I looked in front of Me. And the guy in front of me was Philip Glass.

[Listener or Student]

Wow.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Yeah. I got such a kick out of that.

[Choral Singer or Vocalist]

Yeah.

[Musicologist or Expert]

I didn't disturb him or anything, but he was enjoying it.

[Listener or Student]

I bet.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Yeah.

[Listener or Student]

It's an interesting thing. I wonder what it's like concocting something in your head and then getting to see it in a big room full of people performed on a stage that leap.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Yeah.

[Listener or Student]

Cause I imagine until that happens, you don't really know what it's like.

[Choral Singer or Vocalist]

Yeah.

[Musicologist or Expert]

There's two very, very great choral pieces. Let me play you bits from each. You mentioned before about solar voices OVER chorus so Foray the Requiem. One of the best choral works ever. This is French. I think it's 1888. But around then in any case. And there's a soprano solo in the middle of it. P. Jesus. And this is a very beautiful Requiem. Like Brahms German Requiem is stormy and death obsessed and like longing for death and passionate and foray. It's beautiful and lovely and it's saying you can surrender to death. It's sad, of course, but it's. In a way it's saying death is a bit okay. And so give yourself up to Jesus moment.

[Choral Singer or Vocalist]

Sa ra sa.

[Listener or Student]

Ra.

[Choral Singer or Vocalist]

Sa.

[Listener or Student]

I love that.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Isn't that incredible?

[Listener or Student]

Incredible.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Perfect performance. It's the VOSA's eight group again.

[Choral Singer or Vocalist]

Yeah.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Which is one of my favorites. And it's drawing on the earlier Renaissance. Other Franco Flemish traditions. But it's also late 19th century romantic music. And it's sweet.

[Listener or Student]

Very easy to listen to. And it sounds more filled with wonder than sadness.

[Musicologist or Expert]

That's right. Another great French choral composer is Poulenc. We'll do a short bit of his.

[Listener or Student]

Same era.

[Musicologist or Expert]

No. This is 20th century. So he is composing this during the German occupation of France. So it is not released until after the war is over. So there were these poems written by Paul Edouard, who is a French poet. I think it's 1943. And there's a series of choral pieces. The last one is just the word liberty with an exclamation mark. The message of which being obvious in 1943 and occupied France. And here's one of the movements of it. It's about two minutes long. Prolan. I find a very difficult composer to describe. Very eclectic. A lot of different influences. Very aware of the Renaissance, but also quite modern. Doing many different things in the music. Great opera writer. And this is again is from figurative. Humane. I think it's the second movement.

[Choral Singer or Vocalist]

It. Jesus.

[Listener or Student]

When you listen to music, do you sit and listen or do you do other things?

[Musicologist or Expert]

Both. You need to do both. Because if you had to always sit and listen, you couldn't listen to enough music. And a lot of times you'll do something or I will listen to music. It's just like an investment for your real listen, which will come later.

[Listener or Student]

I see.

[Musicologist or Expert]

But you know what's coming, so you're not trying to figure it all out on the fly either.

[Listener or Student]

Understood.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Yeah.

[Listener or Student]

So you might listen to it while you're reading or while you're working on something else.

[Musicologist or Expert]

And maybe I've heard it 20 times. And then I'll sit down and listen properly, using AI, of course, and I'll ask GPT, what should I listen for? Or what's the historical background here, really? Every time, it makes it much better. Wow.

[Listener or Student]

Should we try that for the next piece?

[Musicologist or Expert]

Well, for the last piece, when I told you it was the poems written in 1943, I hadn't known that until recently. I knew I was coming here. Oh, I better learn about this Ponk piece.

[Listener or Student]

Yeah.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Knowing that it makes it entirely different.

[Listener or Student]

Wow.

[Musicologist or Expert]

And the last movement, Liberty, makes complete sense when you know that. Otherwise it's like. Well, you can think of many reasons he might have done it, but the piece falls into place and what the.

[Listener or Student]

AI tells you might be true.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Yeah, you can always double check, but that's true. Yeah, for sure. Everything I listen to, I try to do that.

[Choral Singer or Vocalist]

Wow.

[Listener or Student]

I've never done that. That sounds like a fun practice to get into.

[Musicologist or Expert]

Yeah. We could try it. Let's see, for the next piece, Ayanichek. This is maybe the greatest choral work of the 20th century. It's not that easy to excerpt, but It's Czech, from 1926, 27. It's called Glagolithic Mass. It's huge. There's a double choir, there's an organ. There's stuff going on. He's throwing the kitchen sink at you. It's a very Dionysian work. It was a statement of Czech nationalism because we're coming out of World War I and who will be a country and for how long? Well, it's still somewhat of an open question, but he's writing this piece in that environment. And the Glagolithic Mass, I don't know, it's 40 minutes, I'd guess. And this movement is called Feruhu, which I suppose is a Czech word. And it's just saying, I believe. But it's very passionate. It grabs you. The Mass as a whole has just so much diversity. It covers so many different parts of music. Hard to excerpt, but we'll hear just a little bit. A piece I strongly recommend that's going to go on and on. But very powerful piece. I'd love to see it in concert someday. I think it just costs a lot to put on.

[Listener or Student]

Sounds very theatrical. It's.

[Musicologist or Expert]

It is. And it's based on folk melodies, like a lot of Eastern European music from that time was very, very famous piece in Czechia. Now, shall we close with the Palestrina piece? Let's do this is almost five minutes long, but we'll just let it run for the close.

[Choral Singer or Vocalist]

Sa Ra Sam.

[Listener or Student]

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[Musicologist or Expert]

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[Podcast Host]

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[Musicologist or Expert]

Tetragrammatin.com.