Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin: Woody Allen

Release Date: October 29, 2025
Guest: Woody Allen
Host: Rick Rubin

Episode Overview

In this in-depth conversation on Tetragrammaton, Woody Allen sits down with Rick Rubin for an expansive, candid dialogue. They talk about the origins and mystery of jokes, Allen’s filmography, creative process, philosophy on success, and the nature of comedy and art. The episode offers listeners a unique window into how Allen perceives his own work and life, mixing humor with honesty and introspection.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Mystery of Jokes and God

• Woody ponders the origin of long, intricate jokes, suggesting their mysterious existence could be “proof of God,” since no commercial writer writes them, yet they circulate.
  • “They seem to appear on Earth, but there's no percentage in writing them ... you can't use them in films, on television, on radio and nightclubs ... So where do they come from? ... one could make a case that it's God's way of telling us that he's up there and he's spending a lot of time doing these jokes and sending them down.” (00:02–02:31)
• Woody admits his atheism while marveling at how these “story jokes” persist in the world, outside any economic context.
• Memorable quote:
  • “Brilliant, funny jokes appear all the time on the earth. So where do they come from?” — Woody Allen [01:51]

2. Joke Structure & Rhythm

• Allen contrasts the immediate pacing of nightclub one-liners—like Henny Youngman or Rodney Dangerfield—with elaborate story jokes, noting the lack of writers for the latter.
  • “Nobody sits down to make up a joke: there are two rabbis in Jerusalem... it goes on for a little bit and then it comes to a very funny punchline. That joke doesn't serve any commercial purpose anywhere.” [02:52]
• He comments on how some comedians—like Myron Cohn—tell long stories, but these are usually absorbed from oral tradition, not written.

3. Moviemaking: Sleeper, Annie Hall, Manhattan

• “Sleeper”:
  • Originated as a two-part film set in contemporary NYC and the future, but the concept proved unwieldy and was condensed to only the future plot.
  • “We decided to forget the two-part movie and we just did a guy who woke up in the future. And then we did, you know, the best we could with futuristic jokes...” [04:32–06:08]
• Annie Hall:
  • Allen remarks that it was completely his inspiration, aiming to “face the audience and talk to them...bring them into my free association.” [07:05]
  • The creative approach required extensive reworking in the editing room.
• Manhattan:
  • Conceived to subvert Panavision’s association with spectacle by making an intimate, relationship-focused film in black and white.
  • The iconic fireworks opening was completely unplanned—a fortuitous piece of luck.
    • “That was just completely unplanned.” — Woody Allen [09:03]

4. Directing, Ad Libbing, and Working with Actors

• Allen encourages improvisation on set, telling actors to depart from his script if it suits the scene, though many revert to scripted lines out of habit.
  • “I'm always saying, you don't have to do any of the lines in the script if you don't want ... just get the job done ... sometimes I can get them to, but I encourage ad libbing.” [09:52]
• Allows actors flexibility in lines, costumes, and more, but intervenes if improvised changes are unsuccessful.

5. Writing Process and Inspiration

• Often visualizes actors or archetypes—sometimes even deceased ones—as he writes characters.
• Describes the automatic process by which films become autobiographical:
  • “You can't help that.” [12:07]

6. Stardust Memories and Audience Perception

• Discusses the misunderstood intent behind Stardust Memories:
  • Allen insists it wasn’t disdain but a reflection on the human condition.
  • “If I had contempt, I actually did not have contempt. But if I had contempt, I was too smart to show it.” [14:30]
  • “The mistake is rarely in the audience. The mistake is almost always in the artist.” [15:29]
• Rick Rubin as audience:
  • “I felt like it expanded my mind...” — Rick Rubin [16:05]

7. The Reality of Success

• Allen reflects on success, stating the personal perks (tables at restaurants, tickets), but that it is not as transformative as one imagines.
  • “On balance, it's better than not. It's not what you think it is, it's not what it's cracked up to be. But it's a little better than not being.” [17:54]

8. Art vs. Entertainment

• Believes that entertainment is a fundamental artistic obligation—citing Bergman, Fellini, and Kurosawa as entertainers as well as artists.
  • “I think the obligation of the artist first is to entertain.” [19:07]

9. Technical Innovation: Zelig & Purple Rose

• Allen explains his passion for documentary-style comedy (Take the Money and Run), and that technological freedom in later years enabled more ambitious films like Zelig.
• Purple Rose of Cairo was a concept that took months to resolve. The crucial idea (the actor stepping off screen) came via inspiration after creative blockage.
  • “And then one day it occurred to me, the actor playing the actor who steps off the screen comes to town and there's the two of them. And it gave me the whole second half of the picture.” [22:04]

10. The Demands of Stand-Up Comedy

• Contrasts the relentless requirements of stand-up with the different pacing of movie writing.
  • “Stand up is the very essence. You've got to have almost an hour of one laugh after another. [23:36]”
• Finds stand-up more difficult and regards himself as a “decent comic, but not a great one.” [24:08–68:44]

11. Perspective on His Own Work

• Allen personally favors Midnight in Paris, Match Point, Bullets Over Broadway, Purple Rose of Cairo, Zelig, and Broadway Danny Rose.
• He struggles to enjoy his own films and envies directors like Sidney Lumet who take pleasure in their work:
  • “All I got was, I really wrecked this ... I'd love to do this movie over if I had $10 million or something. But ... I don't ever see my movies after I do them.” [25:37–28:10]

12. The Moviegoing Experience

• Laments the loss of the communal movie theater, arguing that the experience with a crowd elevates a film beyond what’s possible at home.
  • “I like to go into the movie and a lot of people around me, we all see it together ... it's a different enjoyment...” [28:10–29:12]
• Watching his own film with an audience is “like a cold shower.” [29:18]

13. Career Retrospective & Pathways

• If given the chance to advise his younger self, Allen says he’d aim for profundity over laughs, aspiring to be more like Kurosawa or De Sica. [30:25]

14. New Novel: What's With Baumgarth

• Allen talks about his foray into novel-writing, describing his latest book as a light, short, amusing work in the spirit of literary “foreplay.”
  • “I tried one maybe 30 years ago...I said, okay, then I don't want anybody else to see it ... And I put it in my drawer and I never took it out again.” [56:12]
• The novel took about a year, written “sporadically, in small doses.” [54:45]

15. Writing Habits and Knowing the Ending

• Only in his later films did Allen reliably know the ending before starting the script; Match Point was the first.
  • “In the later films, I know...I knew all the endings.” [59:01]

16. Early Influences and Stand-Up Origins

• Woody’s writing journey began as a teenager submitting jokes to newspaper columnists; his career gained traction via radio shows, advertising, and eventually, television.
• The critical turning point into stand-up comedy came from seeing Mort Sahl perform:
  • “I went down there and I was knocked for a loop. I'd never seen anything like that. I mean, it just changed my life in one second.” [62:52]
• His manager, Jack Rollins, encouraged him to perform, leading to more visibility and considerably more writing offers.

17. Persona vs. Material in Comedy

• Credits Mort Sahl’s persona as the transformative element in stand-up, a unique quality no one else could imitate:
  • “It's the human being. That's what they're responding to. You're responding to the Persona of Mort Saul. Yes, his jokes are brilliant ... but it's him.” [70:03–74:14]
• Notes that all great comedians—Groucho, Bob Hope, Jonathan Winters—possess an unquantifiable “thing” in their delivery.
  • “That's the part that the AIs are never going to duplicate … but they're never going to get that impossible to capture thing...” [75:51]

18. Meeting Icons

• Allen shares anecdotes about meeting and befriending Groucho Marx; describes Groucho’s wit as both unstoppable and deliberate. [76:18–77:03]
• He met Bob Hope briefly, and observes that new comedians often emulate their heroes, as Allen did with Mort Sahl before developing his own style. [77:51–79:24]

19. Making Comedy for Audiences

• Asserts that experienced comedians instinctively know which material will work—even without audience feedback. [79:36]
  • “If you're a professional, that's a gift that you have...” [79:36]
• The writing process is a blend of intellect and inspiration:
  • “You have no part in the inspiration—that proceeds from inside you.” [81:27]

20. Life, Fantasy, and Cinema

• Allen discusses the fantasy vs. reality of Manhattan as shaped by Hollywood films, and how much of life is spent striving for those cinematic ideals:
  • “The Manhattan that I was crazy about was the Manhattan that I had seen in movies … only existed up on the screen.” [32:44–35:04]
• Fantasy, magic realism, and escapism run throughout Allen’s films, reflecting his own desire for “more fantasy, less real.” [37:04–37:25]

21. The Comedy Writers’ Room & Sid Caesar

• Describes the Sid Caesar writers’ room as “probably the funniest group,” populated by not just funny men but expert craftsmen.
  • “They knew when a joke would be holding up. The progress of the skit.” [83:23]
• Regarding Sid Caesar:
  • “He was large, generous, very brilliant, hilariously funny ... he really was a genius.” [85:50]

22. Legacy & Aspirations

• The episode touches on Allen’s recurring artistic ambition to pursue projects beyond his perceived limits, even into his late career:
  • “I was always ambitious and I always wanted to do it ... I was always punching upward, failing artistically, but being saved by my luck.” [48:28]
• His resolve to chase creative vitality is illustrated by directing his last film in French, a language he doesn’t speak, simply to challenge himself. [49:00]

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On the mystery of story jokes:
  • “Brilliant, funny jokes appear all the time on the earth. So where do they come from?” — Woody Allen [01:51]
• Success and reality:
  • “I imagined it better. I thought...I would be succeed in show business and be socially adept and go to glamorous parties...It wasn't. I still got toothaches and I still had the same problems everybody had, but I could get a better table at a restaurant.” [17:54]
• On artistic responsibility:
  • “The obligation of the artist first is to entertain. If he doesn't entertain, then it's a bore…” [19:07]
• The elusive magic of comedic persona:
  • “That's the part that the AIs are never going to duplicate ... they're never going to get that impossible to capture thing ...” [75:51]
• Allen’s view of his own work:
  • “To me, my work is, 'oh, I screwed up here. I failed here. Look how terrible this is … I'd love to do this movie over if I had $10 million or something.'” [25:37–28:10]

Selected Timestamps for Major Segments

• On God and jokes: 00:02–02:31
• On ad libbing and working with actors: 09:44–11:18
• Manhattan and the iconic fireworks scene: 07:41–09:39
• Reflections on Stardust Memories: 12:27–16:12
• Success and its meaning: 17:46–19:03
• On art versus entertainment: 19:03–19:55
• Purple Rose of Cairo and creative luck: 21:12–22:17
• On starting as a writer and moving to stand-up: 41:42–68:44
• Observing Mort Sahl’s genius: 62:52–74:43
• Meeting Groucho Marx: 76:18–77:03
• Perspectives on inspiration in writing: 80:40–81:57

Tone and Language

The conversation is reflective, self-deprecating, and frequently humorous. Allen is candid about his anxieties, artistic ambitions, and lifelong admiration for masterful artists and comedians. There are frequent moments of humility and philosophical musing, tempered by stories rooted in the realities of show business.

Episode Takeaways

• Woody Allen’s blend of humor and introspection frames his creative life, with his success feeling as accidental as it is deliberate.
• The real substance of comedy, according to Allen, lies not in the jokes, but in the uniqueness of the performer’s persona—something ineffable and endlessly mysterious.
• Art exists to entertain, but great art can also challenge and expand minds.
• Allen’s career is marked by risk, reinvention, and a relentless pursuit of creative growth—balanced by a persistent sense of self-critique and humility.

Anyone interested in comedy, filmmaking, or the nature of creative inspiration will find this episode rich with wisdom, humor, and rare candor from one of cinema’s enduring icons.