A School Shooting Doc that Doesn’t Mention Guns with Steve Hartman

Summary

Podcast Summary: That Can't Be True with Chelsea Clinton

Episode: A New Way to Discuss School Shootings with Steve Hartman

Date: February 19, 2026
Host: Chelsea Clinton
Guest: Steve Hartman (CBS News correspondent, filmmaker)
Podcast by: Lemonada Media & The Clinton Foundation

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode explores school shootings in America through the deeply personal lens of Steve Hartman’s Oscar-nominated documentary short, All the Empty Rooms. The film tells the stories of families who have preserved their children's bedrooms after they were killed in school shootings, creating powerful imagery of absence and remembrance. Chelsea Clinton and Hartman discuss the challenges of bearing witness to such tragedies, the importance of empathy, and strategies for fostering meaningful change—without veering into divisive rhetoric. Throughout, the tone is compassionate, candid, and urgent.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Making and Motivation Behind All the Empty Rooms

• A Personal and Professional Departure
  • Hartman is known for uplifting stories but felt compelled to tackle this topic after growing "numb to the tragedies"—he wanted to “wake people up, including myself” (04:00).
  • The documentary focuses on the “absence” left in families, symbolized by untouched bedrooms.
• Selection of Stories
  • Letters were sent to every family who lost a child in a school shooting since Sandy Hook.
  • “Eight families agreed from five different tragedies… grade schools and high schools, poor communities, and wealthy communities. It was important for me to just show that this can touch anyone anywhere” (04:18).
• Unexpected Meaning
  • Initially aimed at countering numbness, the film became about “recognizing these children and reminding America of what the families have gone through” (05:47).
  • Some parents found meaning in sharing their children’s stories—"they just want their child remembered more than anything" (04:32).

2. Navigating the Conversation Around School Shootings

• Focus on Victims, Not Shooters
  • Hartman echoes the pain of survivors and stresses minimizing focus on shooters:

    “He didn’t care about the shooter. I wish… we had taken the focus off the shooter because really, it does not matter. The name doesn't need to be mentioned. We need to take every step… to make sure we’re not perpetuating this problem.” (10:04)

• The Suddenness and Specific Pain of School Shootings
  • Simple details in bedrooms, like “the cap on the toothpaste… not returned,” emphasize the abruptness of loss (11:05).
  • Hartman describes parents’ disbelief and struggle to accept that a tragedy has happened to their own child (12:38).

3. Approaching Empathy, Numbness, and Change

• Numbness and Bearing Witness
  • Repeated exposure to tragedy can lead to desensitization—Hartman warns, “When we start to think it can’t happen to us…that’s when we start to forget. ... There’s a real danger in that” (13:00).
  • The documentary changed his own perspective: “Anytime I hear about [a school] shooting… I know those bedrooms are out there” (13:24).
• Advice for Parents
  • Hartman struggles with how to prepare children: “You have to walk the line between making sure your kids are prepared and aware… but not making them focus on it” (13:56).
  • The "real solution is to just not have any more school shootings, so they don’t have to worry about it" (14:54).
• Empathy Through Storytelling Without Advocacy
  • The word "gun" is never used in the film, by design.

    “You start talking about guns and… you’re instantly only delivering to half of America… My agenda was really nothing more than just getting people to care about solving the issue… By not mentioning guns, we have been able to reach through to some people that might not have otherwise seen the film” (17:18, 18:04).

  • Notable impact:

    “[A] Sandy Hook denier… watched the film beginning to end and he was changed, fundamentally changed” (18:37).

4. Overcoming Resistance and the Value of Facing Hard Stories

• Some, even in newsrooms, find the subject “too painful” to watch. Hartman responds:

  “It angers me, especially when news people say that... I've never really met anybody who's watched it who hasn't been really glad they watched it… You feel. And everybody should want that for themselves” (19:44).

5. Concentric Circles of Impact

• Lasting scars go far beyond immediate families—schoolmates, parents, and communities are all deeply affected:

  “To this day, there are still parents who park their car outside the school and are there the whole school day… they need to make sure they're doing everything possible to protect their child..." (21:52).

• Long-term vigilance and constant fear mark many communities years after an attack.

6. Labels, Politics, and the Path to Change

• Hartman is skeptical about official labels like "public health crisis":

  “I just worry that those pronouncements can be very polarizing. ... It may do more harm than good” (26:26, 26:41).

• Real solutions require openness and compromise from all political sides, not just declarations or single solutions:

  “There's a big misconception that one thing is going to fix this… It's like trying to find a cure for cancer. We're not going to find one thing. It's going to have to be multiple things done at the same time…” (29:07).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Families Letting Him In:

  “Oftentimes close family members aren’t even allowed in these rooms. ... I made a promise that anybody who would allow us into the rooms, that they would be included in the project.” —Steve Hartman (04:06)

• On Empathy and Numbness:

  “We need to restore empathy. ... I want to remind people ... that we’re still good. ... I like to think of my job as restoring people’s faith in humanity by finding the good in people that’s out there.” —Steve Hartman (33:26)

• On Refusing to Face the Issue:

  “Thoughts, prayers, repeat — kind of what we do. It means nothing. ... You're saying I'm too afraid to actually seriously address this issue.” —Steve Hartman (30:44)

• On the Film’s Unified Message:

  “It’s not just nonstop tears throughout. There are laughs in there too, as you get to know these kids… I don't think we should be afraid to feel. That's all that's going to happen is you're going to feel and you're going to care—and everybody should want that for themselves.” —Steve Hartman (20:24)

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Important Segments with Timestamps

• Introduction to Steve Hartman's Documentary:
  [00:10] – [04:00]
• The Process and Motivation for the Film:
  [04:00] – [07:58]
• Parent Testimony from Canada; Dangers of Focusing on Shooter:
  [07:58] – [13:14]
• On Numbness, Empathy, and Living With Tragedy:
  [13:14] – [15:19]
• Why the Film Never Mentions Guns:
  [17:14] – [19:22]
• On Facing Difficult Topics and Audience Resistance:
  [19:22] – [21:24]
• Ripple Effects in Schools and Communities:
  [21:24] – [23:11]
• Impact and Feedback from Families:
  [23:11] – [25:07]
• The Limits of Labels and Polarization:
  [25:07] – [28:52]
• On Multifaceted Solutions and Compromise:
  [28:52] – [30:12]
• Fact or Fiction Segment:
  [31:38] – [33:26]
• Final Reflections on Empathy and Good Journalism:
  [33:26] – [34:28]

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Fact or Fiction Highlights

• Most gun deaths are in mass shootings: Fiction ([31:44])
• Gun violence is the leading cause of death for kids in the US: Fact ([31:52])
• US children uniquely exposed: Fact ([32:03])
• Media coverage impacts copycats: Nuanced—has been true, but not always ([32:17])
• Engagement is lower now than 20 years ago: Fact ([32:34])
• Repeated exposure reduces empathy: Fact ([32:43])
• Good journalism can still make a difference:

  “That's really the only reason that I'm still doing what I'm doing at the age of 62. Because I do feel like a well told story can make an impact.” —Steve Hartman ([33:26])

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Tone & Language

• Thoughtful, serious, and at times somber.
• Deeply empathetic.
• Avoids political posturing; focuses on humanity, stories, and implications.

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Takeaways

• Hartman’s approach is about restoring empathy and personal connection to the issue of school shootings, using the intimate spaces of bedrooms as potent reminders of absence and loss.
• The documentary avoids divisive political language, inviting viewers from all backgrounds to simply feel and reflect.
• Empathy and open-minded dialogue—not one-size-fits-all solutions or labels—are key themes.
• The episode is a call to bear witness, resist numbness, and push for change, encapsulated in the belief that “a well told story can make an impact.”

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Further Resources

• All the Empty Rooms is available on Netflix.
• Steve Hartman’s "On the Road" segments air Fridays on CBS Evening News and CBS Sunday Morning.
• Follow Steve Hartman on Instagram: @hartmancbs

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(End of summary)

Transcript

[A]

Lemonada.

[B]

Welcome to that Can't Be True, a show that sorts fact from fiction, especially on issues impacting our health. I'm Chelsea Clinton, and today we're joined by Steve Hartman, the beloved storyteller behind CBS's on the Road. Steve has been a CBS news correspondent since 1996, known mainly for finding just extraordinary humanity everywhere. But today, the story that we'll talk about and the story that he's been working on for years is painfully different. His new documentary short, all the Empty Rooms, follows Hartman and photographer Lou Bope as they visit families who have preserved the bedrooms of children killed in school shootings. These, these rooms have been left exactly as they were when their kids went off to school.

[A]

Her room, no, that was her safe place. When that time comes that that room is not there, does she go away? Do you go in there?

[B]

OLETTE oh, yeah, a lot. Every day I tell her good morning and every night I tell her good night. The imagery is heartbreaking and powerful important. And the documentary was recently nominated for an Oscar. This is a really hard conversation to have, and I think an important one. I think we have to bear witness to the permanent and painful reality that far too many families and communities across our country live every day. And then we have to do more than just bear witness. Steve welcome to that Can't Be True.

[A]

Hello.

[B]

Thank you again. I'm incredibly grateful for your time, particularly in what I know is a busy season as your documentary all the Empty Rooms was recently nominated for an Oscar. And so certainly congratulations. And also imagine there are many emotions to be nominated for a project like this one that is, you know, a catalog of loss. I would also submit of failure of the United States to prevent that loss and also something that you worked on for seven years. So I wonder if we can just start with, you know, how you're feeling and kind of what you would want anyone to know about all the empty rooms in this moment in time.

[A]

Well, I mean, I'm proud of the film. It was such a radical departure for me. You know, I normally do the feel good news stories for cbs and it was way off brand, which is why I did not tell my bosses at CBS that I was even doing this.

[B]

When did you tell them?

[A]

Years into the process. What was nice about all the management changes at CBS News is by the time I got around to telling them, you know, there had been several changes of management and they didn't know really what was going on or if I'd ever really gotten permission in the first place. But I probably told them about the time when the documentary crew decided to follow me on the last few. With the last few families.

[B]

You know, we're sitting here talking around the anniversary of the tragedy at Marjory Stoneman Douglas in Florida. And, you know, that's one of the places that kind of. You painfully highlight kind of in absence in the film. How important was it to you to film families across the country?

[A]

I wanted to include everybody who wanted to be included. So I sent letters to virtually every family that lost a child since Sandy Hook, probably, and anybody who was willing to let us into the rooms, which was a huge ask, because oftentimes close family members aren't even allowed in these rooms. It's just a very personal, private space. But I made a promise that anybody who would allow us into the rooms that they would be included in the project. In the end, eight families agreed from five different tragedies. And, you know, it was important for me to just show that this can touch anyone anywhere. And it was, you know, grade schools and high schools and poor communities and wealthy communities. And, you know, I try to think sometimes about what made certain families agree to be part of this. And they all had different reasons. Some had agendas. But by and large, I say the universal thing that brought them all together was they just want their child remembered more than anything. They don't want that life to be lost and serve no purpose. And they like sharing the stories, the funny ones and the sad ones, about who their children are and were. So in the end, I feel like it took on a different meaning for me. The project did, like, initially, it was more about. We'd become numb to the tragedies. I'd become numb to the tragedies. And I felt like I wanted to wake people up, including myself. But in the end, it became more about the families and just, you know, recognizing these children and reminding of America of, you know, what the families have gone through. And, you know, some of the parents will go with us to the Oscar ceremony. And one of them, Gracie Muehlberger, she always wanted to be in the movies. And when her parents found out that the film that she's in is nominated for an Academy Award, they were just full of tears, just like that. She would be so happy about that. And that kind of makes it all feel worthwhile. Even if nothing does change, at least I know I've helped change the lives of those families that took part in this project.

[B]

When you knew seven years ago that you wanted to make a movie like this, did you immediately know that you would write those letters to see if families would be willing to kind of permit you to film the children's bedrooms or did you think of other things or. You always knew that the kind of heuristic of bedrooms as the place of absence kind of would be the way you would tell the story.

[A]

It started with the bedrooms. It was after Parkland. And I imagined the parents going into the rooms. And I thought of my daughter's room, and I thought that that would be the way to tell the story. And I didn't know what I was going to do with the pictures. I solicited the help of a friend of mine, Lou Bope, who is an excellent still photographer, and he was willing to join me. And we set out to do this for years without really knowing what we were going to. And I was years into the project and still stumped as to what am I going to do with these pictures. And I was watching the Oscars one night and a guy I worked with who did my very first story with me at CBS News, a guy named Josh Seftel, who was nominated for an Oscar. I hadn't heard that name, Josh Seftel, in 20, 30 years. So I reached out to him and I told him what I was doing. And I wanted to just turn everything over to him. You should make a film about this. I told him I didn't want to be part of it. You just do it. And he said, I'm very interested, but you need to stick with it. I need to follow you on this journey. And that's how the film came to be.

[B]

While we think of school shootings as being horrifically, uniquely American, we know that's not true. We saw last week there was a school shooting in Canada. And I wonder if we can listen to some tape from a parent whose daughter thankfully survived and then get your take. Okay.

[C]

She phoned me at 2:18 from school, telling me that there were shots fired. And right from then on, I was on flipping high alert. Like, unbelievable. And then I heard her teachers, one teacher say, no, it might be a hammer. It might be a hammer. And the call dropped. So I'm like, my girl, what is going on? I text her right back. And this. I've already. I already got my shoes and everything on. I'm already out the door with my wife and my oldest son. We all got. Right now, we are gone. And 30 seconds, seconds later, dad, it's shooting. It's. That's shooting. Don't come down here. Don't come down here. But by that time, I was already 3/4 of the way there, I was crying outside of the school, I'll tell you that right now. I was, I was in tears. And I still. It's so hard to talk about right now because of the kids that we lost. And I've. I've watched these kids grow up since preschool. I've seen them all through soccer and hockey and whatever else. I give two shits about what the shooter is all about. I give two shits about that. I don't care. We're here for the victims of these kids and these families, about these kids that lost their lives for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

[B]

The attack has been described as one of the deadliest mass casualty events in Canada in recent decades. And it's just heart wrenching. As a parent, and I wonder, as someone who spent so much time with parents whose children did not survive a school shooting, what is your reaction when you hear that tape? And why do you think it's so important that we continue to listen to parents?

[A]

He said a couple things there that stood out to me. One is that he didn't care about the shooter. And I think that's hugely important. I wish that sooner, and we're news, we do a better job of it now, but I wish sooner we had taken the focus off the shooter because really, it does not matter. The name doesn't need to be mentioned. We need to take every step we can as a news outlet to make sure we're not perpetuating this problem. And I think sometimes by talking about the shooter, there's a chance somebody is going to copycat. So I'm glad he said that, that he could care less about that because we need to take the focus off that. The other thing, talking about getting the phone, I mean, one of the reasons that I focused on this is because. And you know, there's other kids lose their lives in many different ways, but there's something, you know, especially painful about losing a child in this way or being a parent that's put in this situation because it's so senseless and it just comes out of nowhere. You know, the loss of any child is sad, but when it's. They're in the safest place outside your own home that you could possibly imagine. And this is where this happens. And it happens for no reason. Out of the blue, when you're in the rooms, you're struck with how suddenly it happened, because there's many things in the rooms which are often perfectly preserved that just showed the kid was planning on coming back that afternoon. Little things like the cap on the toothpaste tube is not returned. Just those little tasks left undone, and you just see how suddenly it is. And I think that makes it extra painful for the parents. And he talks, hearing about the tragedy unfolding, and Brian Muehlberger, the father of Gracie Muehlberger, who died at a shooting in Saugus, California, he talks about hearing the news just like that gentleman did, and what his thought process was. And for him, because so often we maybe just make ourselves feel safer, we like to think this couldn't happen to us. And Brian was talking about how, hearing about the shooting, he was thinking, well, it can't be my daughter. And then he sees his daughter's cell phone pinging at the hospital, and he's still thinking, that can't be my daughter. And it wasn't until the surgeon walked in and said, you know, we couldn't save her, that it finally hit him, only then that this was his daughter. And I think there's a little part of all of us that refuses to believe that this isn't going to happen to us. You know, I try to shake myself out of that thinking because that's what makes us grow numb to it. When we start to think it can't happen to us, that's when we start to think to not care. That's when we start to forget. Like, this shooting was in Tumblr Ridge in Canada. Five kids died. How long before we completely forget this? Not that long. Maybe next week. You know, if I say Tumblr Ridge, maybe even tomorrow, people will have forgotten. And there's a real danger in that.

[B]

Well, and you said earlier, you know, part of the impetus for making the film was so that you didn't grow numb.

[A]

And, Chelsea, it's mission accomplished with that. Because now anytime I hear about shooting like at Tumblr Ridge, I know those bedrooms are out there. I know that those parents, you know, are walking into those rooms and looking around at all the things their child collected and saved and held dear. So I can never. I will never look at school shootings the same way again.

[B]

Steve, do you have any advice for fellow parents about how to talk to our children about gun violence in school settings?

[A]

I go back and forth on this now that I know I've stood in, you know, many bedrooms now of children lost in school shootings. And it's much more real than it was before. And I feel like I'm glad that I took myself there and I'm glad my children are there, because it is very real. And the ripples that go beyond just the individual lives that are lost, the classmates, you know, that live in fear, you know, every day they go to school after that. And so it's not just the kids that are lost. But I'm glad that's become very real. At the same time, I don't want my kids going to school every day worried that something's going to happen. So, you know, some parents really go over with their kids, you know, if this, where are you going if you're in this room? Where are you going to go if this happens? And I just think that can have a negative effect too. So you kind of have to walk the line between making sure your kids are prepared and aware of this but not making them focus on it. The really only solution, clear cut solution, is to just not have any more school shootings, you know, so they don't have to worry about it. That's where we need to get. And until we're there, we walk this line between making sure our kids, making sure your kids are prepared but not making them unnecessarily worried.

[B]

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[A]

That was intentional.

[B]

Yes. I assumed that wasn't an oversight.

[A]

No, that wasn't an oversight. You know, you start talking about guns and there's lots of good documentaries out there about, you know, making the argument for gun control or whatever it may be. You know, you're instantly only delivering to half of America because, you know, there's half that's just going to tune you out. And that wasn't even my message anyway. I don't know if banning guns is the issue, and that's not even my place. You know, I'm a reporter. I'm not here to advocate for one side or the other. I wanted to take a step back. As I said before, you know, we tried to talk about any solution, whether it's mental health, whatever that means, or guns. You know, to just. My agenda was really nothing more than just getting people to care about solving the issue. But by not mentioning guns, we have been able to reach through to some people that might not have otherwise seen the film. There was one guy, a friend of a friend who watched it and he was a Sandy Hook denier and he actually watched the film beginning to end and he was changed, he was fundamentally changed by the documentary. There's another guy who was. He was installing a photo exhibit. Sometimes when we travel around, show the film, we also have a photo exhibit of some of loose photos. And he was the installer, he was hanging the picture and he was known for wearing a T shirt that said, you know, guns aren't stupid, people are stupid. And he was halfway through his job hanging the pictures and he told his boss he had to go home. And he came back the next day and he said, I'm never wearing that T shirt again. Those are just a couple anecdotal stories about the impact the film has made on people who were staunch gun right activists. And I'm not saying that they changed their mind on that, but they were touched in the way that I fully intended to have them feel when we set out to do this. So those are again, anecdotal success stories that were probably achieved solely because it's not an anti gun film.

[B]

I wonder what you say though, to people, and I would, if not presumptuous, surmise that this has happened already and will happen even more as we approach the Oscars. People who say to you, clearly this is such an important story or set of stories to be told, but it's just too painful for me to watch. How do you respond to people who say that?

[A]

You know, even top level management at CBS News has told me they won't watch it because it's too painful to watch. It angers me, especially when news people say that. I mean, like you don't bury your head in the sand. Why did you become a journalist if you're, if you can't, you know, if you can't watch something that's like a real serious news story that really hits home regular folks, I understand it a little bit more because it does sound like, you know, when you first hear about it, sounds like something that's just going to be incredibly painful, but in the end. And Chelsea, you can tell me if you feel differently, but I've never really met anybody who's watched it who hasn't been really glad they watched it. And it's not just non stop tears throughout. There are laughs in there too, as you get to know these kids and you feel. I don't think we should be afraid to feel. That's all that's going to happen when you watch this film is you're going to feel and you're going to care and everybody should want that for themselves. I don't know why people can watch some of the most gruesome grotesque movies or even other documentaries that show bodies being slaughtered in war, but they can't bring themselves to watch this documentary. I don't quite grasp that other than we have touched a nerve, that this is something people really are worried about and they don't want to think about it. I guess this is why I did it in the first place. I wanted people to think about it. And this kind of proves my hypothesis that we're growing as a nation to a place where we just want to put this out of our minds. La la la la la. Not happening.

[B]

I wonder how you think about the different levels of tragedy now that you've worked on this film, that you've covered kind of these stories as a journalist of a family that's affected a school, that's affected a community that's affected a country that's affected. How do you think about holding all of those different kind of concentric circles together?

[A]

Well, I'm glad you point out that it's not just the victims and their families because there are concentric circles of effect that spread well beyond the immediate family. You know, I've talked to kids who've survived school shootings who years later are still scared to go to school. I went to one school where the shooting was years earlier, but to this day, there are still parents who park their car outside the school and are there the whole school day. They take shifts watching the entrance of the school. A group of dads who do this because they just. They need to make sure that they're doing everything possible to protect their child. I had no idea that was happening. I don't think that's ever been reported. But, you know, could you imagine being so fearful that something's going to happen to your child that you get a list of parents and everybody signs up for a shift, so there's always somebody, you know, parked outside the driveway, just watching. I don't think we realize how long this pain lasts. And then beyond that, the community and the kids, like, you know, all our kids who have to, you know, the drills in school, we're all affected by it.

[B]

Have you heard from any families that you had written to initially who didn't write you back or who said they weren't interested in participating? Have you heard from any of those families since the film came out?

[A]

I have not. I expect I will. And Lou and I, we will continue on our own dime to take pictures and give them to the parents. Not for putting on the news or any other purpose, but we're committed to sort of providing that service. And I anticipate I probably will hear from some. And it did take bravery for those parents to step forward and do that, and the trust they placed. You know, there were so many moments where you wanted to cry when you're there. But what got me every time was when a parent said, yes, you can come take pictures of my child's room. Because, you know, just the fact that they trusted us with that just, you know, just on a really personal level, you know, the case of Brian and Cindy Muehlberger, who again lost their daughter Gracie in Saugus, California. By being able to tell their story to a mass audience, they were able to finally move on. They were stuck with that room. They didn't want to give it up, but they also, at the same time, had to give it up. Brian Muehlberger had gotten a job in another city that he could not take, couldn't bring himself to take, because he couldn't surrender that bedroom. So by continuing to tell the story, by sharing the photo books, we shared photo books of the rooms with all the families, they were finally able to pack up that room. And I'm not going to say move on, because you never move on, but they were able to pack up the room and move out, and many of the families aren't there. But I think by being a part of this process, we help some take one step closer to that.

[B]

Sam One of the reasons I think it's so important that we highlight work like yours and have conversations like this in the public health arena is that I do believe that gun violence, and particularly school shootings are a public health crisis as well as, of course, you know, a cascade of personal and collective tragedy. During the Biden era, the Surgeon General labeled firearm violence a public health crisis. And recently that framing has shifted in this current administration. Do you think these kind of labels or framing matter or does it not really matter?

[A]

I don't know if you'll like the answer, but I'm not sure it matters.

[B]

I asked the question, I wouldn't be doing a very good job based on just listen, you talk about we need to be open to new kind of evidence, always in multiple perspectives from at least well meaning people. So you don't think it matters.

[A]

I just worry that those pronouncements can be very polarizing. That's my concern. That they can rally the people that already kind of feel what you do, but they turn off the other side. So anything that comes from a, from a place that's really not open minded and centered around empathy, I just, I worry sometimes that that does, that some could do more harm than good, but probably doesn't do much good, like labeling it, you know, a public health crisis. You know, I think pointing out that it is, you know, is good and like we do in the film, I think, you know, it goes a long way to doing that. But I don't know, it's just the way people talk nowadays about this issue and really so many, it's just, it's, it's not like the rest of the world talks about things. It's not cbs. It's not how we talk about solving problems. It's just, it's, it's unique to the political world the way they, you know, try to affect change and try to sway people's minds. It's just a completely different animal. And, you know, so I just, I don't know, I don't know where the change starts from. I just don't think it starts from a pronouncement like that. But it may come from a politician who, this is coming from a different place, you know, who gets elected for a different reason, who has different goals, who's just a completely different animal who can lead and Come in with an open mind, appealing to all sides and acknowledge that the other side might be right. You know, when's the last time you heard a politician say something? You know, what you might be right about? That an assault weapons ban might help this, you know, or more discussion about mental health may be actually what we need to do. Or maybe it's, you know, metal detectors in schools or, you know, be open to certain teachers having guns. I don't know what it would be. But we don't even hear the other side's arguments. I think we just get painted into a corner. And until we break out of that, you know, I'm going to be pessimistic.

[B]

What do you think some of the biggest misconceptions are then? That in your framing one side has about the other? Or what are some of the biggest misconceptions that you think just people in general, regardless of side, may have about school shootings?

[A]

There's a big misconception that one thing is going to fix this, that if we just did this, it would end. And maybe that's just because it's a simpler way to try to define it, but in looking at a multifaceted approach that may include things you agree with and may include things you don't agree with or you're skeptical of, it's like trying to find a cure for cancer. We're not going to find one thing that's going to cure it. It's going to have to be multiple things done at the same time. And it's the same with this issue. An assault weapons ban is not going to end this. That's not it. More accountability for parents. That's not going to be the one thing that fixes this. It's going to be multiple things. And that's why we need to approach it with an open mind and say, ok, yeah, maybe we do need to do what I have always thought we should do, but maybe we also need to do this. And it's going to take compromise. You know, that's what we do in business all the time. And, you know, in our families, we compromise. But when it gets to the political arena, nobody wants to compromise on anything because then you look weak, supposedly.

[B]

Steve, our last segment on the show is always called fact or fiction. So I'll say different things and you'll respond fact or fiction or with nuance. But before we do that, I do have to ask, because we've talked so much about the importance of empathy, I wonder what, if any, kind of thoughts or feelings you have about what we often hear from politicians subsequent to school shootings, which is some variation of thoughts and prayers.

[A]

Yeah, I hate the phrase. It's thoughts, prayers, repeat kind of what we do. It means nothing. Saying our thoughts and prayers are with you. It's become very hollow. I wish people would not say it anymore because it's another way of saying I'm not going to do anything about this. And it really doesn't mean. Your loss doesn't mean as much to me. Enough to me that I want to actually say something meaningful. When you say thoughts and prayers, it's that you, you're saying I'm, I'm too afraid to actually seriously address this issue. Be more specific. I guess that that's, that's what I would say. Just be more specific than thoughts and prayers because you're not giving any thought to your, to your feeling when you just say thoughts and prayers. So.

[B]

Fact or fiction? Steve? Most gun deaths in the United States are in mass shootings.

[A]

Fiction.

[B]

In the United States, gun violence is the leading cause of death for kids.

[A]

I believe that's fact.

[B]

Certain age group Americans are uniquely exposed to higher rates of gun violence compared to other high income countries.

[A]

That's a fact.

[B]

The way the media covers school shootings has been shown to influence whether future attacks occur, including copycat behavior.

[A]

It depends. There have been instances where that has been a fact, but certainly not every time. And I think it's less now than it was in the beginning.

[B]

News audiences are less likely to engage deeply with stories about gun violence today than they were 20 years ago.

[A]

Fact.

[B]

Repeated exposure to tragic events can reduce empathy over time 100%.

[A]

Fact. I'm pretty critical of local news in this way because local news tends to really focus on crime in a given area and it can make people really fearful of their community, more so than they should be. So media coverage of crime can definitely have an impact on how people feel about their own safety and about how prevalent crime is.

[B]

Last question and feel free please to not just answer fact or fiction, but also share your perspective. Good journalism can still change how people see one another even in our deeply polarized political environment.

[A]

I would say that's a fact. And that's really the only reason that I'm still doing what I'm doing at the age of 62. Because I do feel like a well told story can make an impact. And I'm trying to at the one time, especially with this film, I'm trying to point out that we need to restore empathy. But I also want to remind people in my daily job, my day job, that we're still good. I like to think of my job as restoring people's faith in humanity by finding the good in people that's out there. And really on one, on one people are great. They're great to each other and I don't want to lose sight of that. That's why we need to have empathy and we need to feel for the victims. But at the same time, we need to remember that people are good and we do have a way to solve problems is definitely in us.

[B]

I certainly agree. Steve, thank you so much for joining us. And I hope that every parent and those of us who are Americans who may not be parents sees your film and decides that it's our responsibility to ensure that there are fewer stories like that. Hopefully no stories like that in the future.

[A]

Thank you so much for having me.

[B]

You can follow Steve Hartman evehartmancbs on Instagram. His film all the Empty Rooms is streaming on Netflix. His weekly on the Road segments air Fridays on CBS Evening News and repeat on CBS News Sunday Morning. Thank you for listening. Talk to you next week. That Can't Be True is a production of Limonada Media and the Clinton Foundation. The show is produced by Katherine Barnes Mix in sound design by Ivan Koraev. Kristin Lepore is senior director of new content and Jackie Danziger is VP of narrative and production. Maggie Kralshore is our managing director of partnerships. Executive producers are Jessica Cordova Kramer, Stephanie Whittles, Wax and me, Jesse Clinton. Special thanks to Erica Goodmanson, Sarah Horowitz, Francesca Ernst Kahn, Caroline Lewis, Sage Falter, Barry, Lurie Westerberg, Emily Young and the entire team at the Clinton Foundation. You can help others find our show by leaving us a rating and writing a review. And if you can think of someone who might benefit from today's episode, please go ahead and share it with them. There's more of that can't Be True with Lemonada. Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content when you subscribe on Apple Podcasts. You can also listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership.