A (3:15)

Yeah. And one of the things that I'm constantly reminded of is just how much shame and stigma surround eating disorders. We've come so far with mental health, and yet eating disorders still seems to be that issue that people just don't wanna talk about. It's, you know, and especially where we live in a world that's very body focused, very diet centric, very fatphobic. I think that people are still very hesitant to just have these open conversations. And when you think about eating disorders that affect upwards of 29 million Americans in their lifetime, that's one in nine Americans that will have an eating disorder. And eating disorders have the second highest lethality rate of all psychiatric disorders. That means every 52 minutes someone will die as a direct result of their eating disorder in their country. We have to talk about it. And the issue when it comes with eating disorders is that they do not discriminate between age, gender, race, class, body shape and size, ability, neurodiversity. And so often those archaic stereotypes are the things that hold people back from getting, number one, the intervention, but then the care that they so desperately need and deserve.

B (4:34)

And Joanna, I know that you've been working in this space for quite some time now. I wonder too, what has changed and maybe what hasn't changed.

A (4:46)

I think we still have this belief set that eating disorders are disorders of choice and of vanity, and yet they are serious mental illness. That was a change that happened about a year ago when HHS actually wrote the words, you know, serious mental illness with eating disorders was a tremendous success. And what that really means is that eating disorders must be and have to be in the general mental health conversation, and yet so often they're not. I mean, to this day, Chelsea, I'll be in a room of mental health providers and then they'll look over at me and then they'll actually say, why are you here? Why are you here?

B (5:25)

Oh, my gosh, I'm sorry.

A (5:27)

And I mean, to think that there's that bias within a room of mental health providers that should know better. Of course, the community at large is not going to have that information. So I think really revving up the awareness not only within the mental health community, but the physical health community, when we look at, you know, healthcare providers, we believe that less than 20% of all healthcare providers are adequately informed or trained to know anything about eating disorders. And when you think that 1 in 9 of their patients that walks through their door will actually have an eating disorder or we are doing a tremendous disservice and it fully is a public health crisis.

B (6:08)

We're also in a moment of kind of deep awareness of the fact that we have an obesity crisis in our country. And I think, Joanna, this conversation has gotten kind of further, both electrified and more commonplace because of the rise of GLP1 inhibitors, which have been profound tools to help many people get to a greater place and feeling of health. And also I think now are in some kind of narratives being treated as the panacea as like all that anyone would ever, ever need to do.

A (6:47)

Absolutely.

B (6:49)

Often on this show that can't be true, we play clips of things that might seem or actually be improbable. President Trump recently announced deals with Eli Lilly and Nova Nordisk, two of the largest makers of GLP inhibitors, to at least I think, you know, in the administration's hope, expand access. And certainly President Trump as well as Secretary Kennedy and Dr. Oz, as the head of the center for Medicare Medicaid, have, have made some rather substantial projections. So here's just some of what they have said. The American public, because of this agreement, will lose 125 million pounds by this time next year. It is going to have dramatic effects on human health in this country.

A (7:40)

We have an update. Secretary Kennedy, we thought it was £125 million, Mr. President. Our estimate based on the company numbers as well is Americans will lose 135 billion pounds by the midterms.

B (7:52)

That can't be true. 135 billion pounds by next year.

A (7:59)

Well, I think the first thing that we need to just talk about is the fact that 135 billion pounds would equal 290 pounds of weight loss per American in this country, which is just, it's not even possible. What we've really heard on our helpline and in our support groups is we've heard this notion that we're living in a time where it's just simply not okay to live in a higherway body anymore. It's almost like you have no excuses anymore. We're not taking a look at the mental health implications. We're not taking a look at the increased body and weight shaming of individuals that may live in higher weight bodies. We're not taking a look at the fact that it's very hard for individuals that are on the journey of recovery that are being told that they have to recover things from severe malnutrition. And we live in a world where individuals that are on these GLP1s may be experiencing those side effects that they're in treatment for, and yet they're being uplifted and supported. We know that the GLP1 use for weight loss can lead to things like pancreatitis, gastroparesis, individuals are losing their gallbladders. And what's really interesting is when you're recovering from an eating disorder, for example, you may have, or you're experiencing an eating disorder, you may have hair loss because of malnutrition. Now, I know that on my social media feed, even though I tend to hit not interested, not interested, I get a ton of targeted ads for products that individuals will say, are you losing hair because of using GLP1s for weight loss? Utilize this supplement. And yet what their bodies are experiencing is extreme malnutrition.

B (9:47)

I want to really talk more about kind of what you just said, but before we do that, just pausing on the Trump administration, they've made many statements that really, I think, elucidate this real focus on weight and weight loss. And I absolutely agree that there are many people who would be healthier at lower weights for who, but it's really actually quite critical to their health, to their longevity, likely also to their mental health and well being. We, though, have many other health priorities in this country. We've had, tragically, children die of vaccine preventable illnesses, measles and whooping cough. We have, as of yet unexplained rising rates of cancer, especially among people under 50. We have made real progress, but still have so much more work to do to help support people who are struggling with opioid use disorder and addiction. Why do you think there's been a rather substantial amount of time and energy on weight and weight loss?

A (11:01)

I do believe it's because of medical weight bias and I think it's just a very easy thing to turn to in this country. It is pretty much legal still to fire someone based on their weight and shape.

B (11:16)

And can you just pause on that? Because I think that that's probably surprising.

A (11:20)

To a lot of people who think.

B (11:21)

Like, you can't fire someone for being pregnant, you can't fire someone because of their gender or their race or their disability status.

A (11:27)

But, but federally, you absolutely can fire someone based on their weight and shape. There are some states that have taken on legislation, Michigan being one of them, New York had being one of them, and some cities that have taken it on, but yet you can still fire someone based on their body size and shape, which just really speaks to that inherent bias that, that, that is that is there. I also think too, there's this belief that, that that weight is up to you. And we're not talking about genetics at all. We know that so much of your genetics play into that you will have. And I just think individuals that live in higher weight bodies are a very easy target for, I would say our society and community. We also cannot turn a blind eye to the amount of money that's pumped into diet culture. I mean, it is billions and billions and billions of dollars. We live in a world that we are told that our bodies are never going to be good enough. I mean, I have a 9 year old daughter and it's being targeted towards her already.

B (12:28)

You know, Joanna, how do you see that? I mean she's. How do you see that, Chelsea?

A (12:34)

The first book that she read in kindergarten was a book called Good Food versus Bad Food. Now we live in a very weight neutral food, neutral house, you know, and we don't believe that there's good food and bad foods. We don't believe that food have morality. All foods are food. There's some foods that, you know, make us stronger, help us grow. The last thing that I want to do to my daughter is put the same rigid food rules that I was taught societally and that I dealt with for a very long time with my experience with eating disorders. So we know from the age of five with the first book that she read that again, it's this pinning good versus bad. You live in this type of body, it's good. You live in this type of body, it's bad. So from a very, very young age, there's conversation on who's the smallest in their class, who's the largest in their class. And my daughter's in fourth grade. You know, about two months ago, my daughter came to me and said all the boys in her class got together and they named who the largest girl in their class was. And it was my daughter, who's always been pretty high on the height and growth chart.

B (13:46)

What did the teacher do in this scenario?

A (13:49)

So the teacher did not know. And what happened is my daughter having so much literacy around this, you know, having a mom who runs an organization, you know, said to her peers, you know, we don't talk about people's bodies first and foremost. And she did go up to the teacher and told the teacher that, you know, her mom runs an eating disorder organization. And this happened. And the teacher did all the right things. She did all the right things in that moment. And I was so grateful that I empowered her to be able to Use her voice and to stand up for herself. And I also have to tell you with the fact that that eating disorders are genetic. About 50 to 70% of the cause of eating disorders are genetics. So in my family, for example, three of my aunts struggled with eating disorders. My mom did not. So I was a lot more susceptible to developing an eating disorder. And I know that she's inherently more susceptible to developing eating disorders. I got very worried at that moment of what are the implications going to be. She did what she needed to do in that moment. We continued to have open conversations about it. But I also want to hold space for the fact when your child comes up to you and says something along lines of, none of my friends are eating lunch. What do I do? Or does this make me look a certain way? What do I do? It's always asking the question of what's going on? How does that make you feel? And I know that sounds very therapeutically lingo, but it's giving an opportunity for your kids to share with you what's going on in a very neutral way.

B (15:24)

That's just so chilling to realize that so many of our children are already being made conscious and effectively educated in ways that may not be good for their health today. Or as you were saying, Joanna, kind of good for their health longer term.

A (15:43)

Absolutely. And we're seeing that reflected on our helpline. About 13% of all of our calls to our national helpline are for kids under the age of 12. Last year, out of all of our calls, about 30% of all of our calls were for for kids and teens younger than 18. That number has up to 38% in 2025.

B (16:04)

What do you think has shifted? Why? Why has it grown so substantially and painfully?

A (16:09)

Well, we do know that from 2020 to 2024, we had about 100% increase in hospitalizations for eating disorders in the ER for adolescent female identifying individuals. Now, I bring up that statistic to just to share the increase. And yet I also need to share that our males are struggling. Right. Individuals that are 45 + are struggling. In fact, we're seeing increased calls on our helpline and increased attendance to our midlife and beyond group of individuals that are 45 and older. So it's a combination of social media, of, you know, of diet talk. We also know that GLPs are being prescribed to kiddos and teens. Two years ago, the American Academy of Pediatrics came out with a statement saying, we can be giving GLPs to teens. We can be doing medical weight loss on kids and teens. And as a parent, as an advocate, as a survivor of a very, very strenuous 10 year experience with my eating disorder, it scares me to my bones.

B (17:16)

Part of maybe why people don't have these conversations, to go back to where we started this conversation, is that they are hard, right? It's scary to think about what our children might be exposed to. I think it is that the American Academy of Pediatrics is making recommendations that they think are important to help protect and promote kids health. And also what may be right and really medically necessary for one child may not be for another. In any dynamic where there's such kind of individualization, it just makes a broader public conversation harder.

A (17:53)

Absolutely.

B (18:04)

At all times and especially right now, rights and dignity need champions. Across the world, people are losing access to essential health care. We see growing attacks across the board, but especially on contraception, abortion and gender affirming care. It can feel like fear is winning, but we know that fear only wins when we stay silent. That's why the International Planned Parenthood Federation is calling on all of us to come together to help protect essential healthcare access. When you donate, you can help local providers deliver life saving services in more than 150 countries. You can help fuel the fight for policy change and empower organizers to stand up for all healthcare, but especially right now for reproductive choice and freedom. If you give today, your gift will be matched. Visit ippf.org true to make your match donation right now. That's ippf.org true. Joanna, I know, you know the organization that you run, the national alliance for Eating Disorders, clearly plays such a critical role in the infrastructure of care today and in advocating, you know, for greater access to care. You started this organization in college. I mean most people in college are going to school, maybe kind of working a job to help pay for school. Why was it so important as you were working on your own recovery, to help reach out to others who might be on a similar journey.

A (20:00)

So my personal experience with my eating disorder became the blueprint for the creation of the alliance. I struggled with an eating disorder from the age of 11 to 21. I'm first generation American. My father was a Holocaust survivor. My mother came from extreme poverty. They emigrated to the United States to give me every opportunity that they never had. And I had all the pieces. I had the perfect storm that happened for me for my development of my eating disorder. I was genetically predisposed. I struggled with anxiety for all my life. I had the character traits, the perfectionism, the people pleaser. And I also was a ballet dancer. So all of those things became that perfect storm. And at 11, I went on a simple diet with the rest of my ballet class because we had an audition for the Nutcracker. And for me, a simple diet turned into a 10 year struggle with an eating disorder.

B (20:58)

And did you know it was happening while it was happening?

A (21:00)

I had no idea. I had no idea. I just started eating a little bit less and I started exercising a little bit more. And then the more weight that I lost, the more supportive the community was. The ballet world was very embracive. They were like, you've never looked so good. And unfortunately, my eating disorder went unnoticed for almost a decade. And when I finally asked for help, I wasn't able to get help because my parents didn't have the money to pay for treatment. Insurance at that point wasn't covering. And so I couldn't get help. And that really was the thing that was hardest for me is I had this moment of being sick and tired of being sick and tired. And I finally asked for help and I couldn't get help, which is something that we hear time and time again here at the Alliance. And so I did what I could do, is I went to whatever community meetings I could find. And in that time it was AA meetings and I didn't have an issue with alcohol, but I wanted to be in a room where people sort of spoke the same language.

B (22:03)

And was that helpful to you?

A (22:05)

It absolutely made me feel less alone. And I think that that is one of the barriers to care and recovery, is the isolation, is the loneliness that eating disorders make you.

B (22:16)

What do you think needs to change on the medical establishment side? Do we need different pedagogy in medical schools? Do we need support for doctors to know that while GLP1 inhibitors are absolutely the right answer for some patients, they may not be the right answer for patients who have history of eating disorders and maybe they should be screening. What do you think needs to happen so that we're better supporting kids and adolescents and also just anyone of any age?

A (22:46)

Everything and anything you just said is what needs to happen. We need to be educating, I think, all healthcare providers on eating disorders, I think, on what to say, on what not to say. For example, when you have someone come in and they tell you, I'm in eating disorder recovery, or I'm on my journey of eating disorder recovery, I would like to do a blind weight, even knowing what blind weights are, which is when you get on the scale backwards and are not told your weight for one, knowing the right test to perform, if you Think that there is an eating disorder present, expanding our awareness or our education around who develops an eating disorder, not telling someone who's male, identifying that there's no way that they can have an eating disorder because those are female illnesses.

B (23:32)

And you think that still happens today in 2025?

A (23:35)

It happens all the time.

B (23:37)

Wow.

A (23:38)

I mean, we got a call on the helpline last week saying, you know, you weigh too much to have an eating disorder. Even though we know that eating disorders happen at all sizes at all weights. You know, telling someone who's in menopause, you know, there's no way that you can have an eating disorder that's only a young person's disorder when we know that menopause is such a crux of the development of eating disorders. So I think general awareness needs to happen as far as GLPs, I think our healthcare providers need to do a better job at screening for eating disorders prior to prescribing. Now, I know that a lot of individuals can, you know, evade the questions, know how to answer, but we're not even giving individuals an opportunity adding questions, for example, at OBGYN offices asking about history of eating disorders. We know so many individuals that are going to have children, are going to have a hard time having children, have fertility issues because of disordered eating and eating disorders. And yet the majority of OBGYN are not even asking the questions. I think so often, you know, what, what we're dealing specifically in the medical community is this inherent medical weight bias. You know, individuals, physicians, I would say the medical community will always default. For example, if someone lives in a larger weight body or larger size body, they will automatically default if they're going in for, you know, an eye examination. Literally there'll be a conversation about their weight and shape. And so right off the bat, we're excluding so many individuals experiences based on their body's weight and shape. And somewhere along the lines we have conflated or mixed up this idea that weight equals health. We've sort of lost our direction that we really have to stay focused that health equals health. You will definitely have someone that lives in a larger body that might be a lot healthier than someone who lives, lives in a smaller, a smaller sized body and still holding that. We have a lot of physical illnesses that are, that are going on. I think so often though is that stigma is going to be the barrier for care for so many people. Is this way of just erasing individuals experiences because they don't fit into a mold in which we think they should show up in and last, we really want to talk about the fact that eating disorders really happen in all shapes and sizes. You can have someone in a higher weight body that is experiencing what is known as atypical anorexia nervosa, which they may be starving, they may be completely malnourished, and yet they go to the doctor, and the number one thing that they're told is, you need to lose more weight. And you're already telling someone that has a very unhealthy relationship with food and their bodies to then continue to act out, to act in very unhealthy ways towards their body.

B (26:34)

You know, Joanna, I'm sure you also get those calls again from a group of people that look like America, because you have something that I know you're so passionate about is helping, you know, broaden the awareness that eating disorders don't discriminate. And yet I think there is still this conceptualization that eating disorders not only generally, but quote, unquote, like, only affect, you know, young women. I think often, particularly, there's like, only affects, like young white women.

A (27:04)

Yeah. The other thing is that there's been this stereotype that eating disorders only affect wealthy individuals when we actually know that 17% of all individuals that are food insecure will experience an eating disorder. So you can only imagine, like, even, you know, taking something from the news when SNAP benefits were paused, you know, that was extremely alarming. And we had, like, individuals call the helpline, say, you know, we're not getting our SNAP benefits and yet we're trying to recover from an eating disorder. Right. Like, how do you navigate that journey? And so when we have conversations around eating disorders, it's that. Exactly. That swag, right? The skinny, white, affluent girl. When we know that that eating disorder are affecting so many other people, and it's really informing gatekeepers oftentimes so that there's more availability and accessibility to awareness, but also access to care.

B (28:23)

You know, one of the conversations that we've had across many episodes of this podcast is really around the Maha movement and the rising influence of kind of wellness and health celebrities online who talk about toxins in food, villainize seed oils, you know, tell us what supplements to take, you know, really tell us what we should and shouldn't eat. I wonder, though, kind of what thoughts you have, you know, Joanna, about the very particular ways in which at least, you know, more recently, like the Maha, big personalities have seemed to orient themselves and how that interacts at all with your work.

A (29:11)

Absolutely. Whenever you lay the basis of restriction, you're going to have inherently binging, that comes into play. So you know, when you say something is good versus bad or you villainize things like sugar, which is a big part of it as well, you are going to set individuals up for this restrict binge experience. I also think too that oftentimes we're taking supplements without any knowledge of what the side effects are going to be. I think anytime that you set up something as good versus Bad, yes, vers, you're going to get into places where you're going to have issues with it. We very much believe in the eating disorder community that in this all foods fit model.

B (29:57)

Right.

A (29:58)

Like it's, it's of course like going back to this idea that some foods are going to be inherently better for us to move, to grow, to experience, but doing it in a way that's helpful, not harmful. And then at the same time, we also have to hold the conversation where individuals are not getting access to all foods. We have food deserts. These are a real thing that we have to contend with. And so when you are, you know, saying that this is bad or, you know, these types of oils are bad and that is all that individuals have access to, I think that we're doing a very, very big disservice and we're fueling individuals to have disordered experiences with food, with their bodies.

B (30:39)

And Joanna, then what advice would you have for people who you want to make healthier choices and yet don't want to tip into the unhealthy dynamics that you just talked about? What warning signs might present when kind of what started off as a very kind of health driven journey may tip into something more dangerous?

A (31:06)

Yeah, absolutely. Actually, as you were saying that, I started to think about orthorexia nervosa, which is when individuals go on this healthful journey of eating very organically, very cleanly, and then very, very quickly, you know, it's, I'm eating just this like a certain amount of food. They have to know where it's been grown and it can very much then, then be that gateway, if you will, into more of a restricting eating disorder like anorexia nervosa. I think what I tell people all the time is let's stop commenting about what people are eating. Let's also stop commenting on how people look. You know, I know that that is, that is really hard to do. I think also just being aware of if you have a loved one who is on a healthful journey, just to watch warning signs, for example, if they're starting to disengage socially or if they're missing appointments because they have to work out or because something else is becoming more important, that tends to be a warning sign. If you're noticing that there's more anxiety around eating or they're making comments, for example, like they're not gonna meet you anymore for meals, or if they are, you know, they're talking about the fact that they've, you know, already ate, and they're just. These are all things for you to be aware of.

B (32:27)

Joanna, though, I feel like I have to ask you, though, at what point should you say something to a loved one because you've noticed kind of the patterns that you've talked about? I mean, I remember when I was in high school, I became very concerned about a dear friend, and as did our other friends, and it felt very scary to talk to her. And we also talked to her parents because we were really, really worried about our beloved friend and felt like we had to at least try to do something that could help her.

A (32:59)

That's exactly. That was exactly right. And you. You most probably helped save her life and definitely changed the direction in which she was in. I think when you see someone fully disengaged, when you see their behaviors of them, you know, perhaps not eating or skipping meals or compulsively exercising, where that is dominating their life, that is when you do say something. And I just want to definitely support and hold space for how difficult those conversations are. I think when you approach those conversations, making sure that you use I statements, you lead with compassion. You know, I'm really worried about you. I have noticed this. When some of the people around me confronted me, it was very much of, you're doing this. You look like this. This is not right. And that was the number one way for my wall to come up. I mean, my eating disorder was strong. It was my best friend, and it was my worst enemy. And as much as I hated every minute, I was so scared of what life would be like without my eating disorder. Loved ones ask me all the time, what do you wish someone would have said to you? And my answer is always the same. Number one, I would say, I am so sorry this is happening to you, because that means that this is not a disorder of choice. I love you. I care about you. Please let me know how I can support you. I will walk next to you on this journey. That is how you come in. You come in with care and compassion, the same way that you would come into if someone was struck, struggling with a physical illness, like cancer, like something else. And don't be surprised if they turn around and say, I'm fine. There's nothing wrong. If you are under the age of 18, I would absolutely suggest that you speak to a teacher, someone trusted, you know, a priest, a religious leader, their parents, if you have that relationship. But coming at it with care and compassion and ensuring that you use I statements and also knowing your job is not to cure them or to fix them. Your job is to support them them.

B (34:58)

Joanna I think that that advice will be so powerful and salient, no doubt to some people today, but likely to, you know, many of us over time. What does then recovery look like?

A (35:11)

Recovery unfortunately doesn't have one definition or.

B (35:15)

When will I know if I'm better?

A (35:16)

That's exactly right. I think everyone looks for, including me, like, you know, when do you ring the bell? Right? Like when my, when my dad was done with his cancer treatments, he rang the bell. It was like walking through the finish line. And I think that you recovery is a journey. It will continue. You're going to have to live in your body for the rest of your life. You're going to have to recover to a world that is going to tell you that your body is still not good enough. I am 26 years post my recovery from an eating disorder. And I can tell you that specifically in the world that we live in right now, where we're getting more calls around even more weight shaming and even more emphasis on weight becomes difficult also when you're in situations like, like Thanksgiving, for example, where there's so much conversation around what you eat and overeating and then also saying that you have to, you know, deserve the food that you're going to eat. You know, it's a journey and it's not going to be perfect. And it's going to be about taking it one moment at a time and realizing though, that there is life beyond eating disorders. And it's not going to be sunshine, bunnies and rainbows all the time because that's not what life is. But it's really living a life where your eating disorder, those disordered thoughts are not the first thing that you think about every morning. It's not the last thing that you think of every night and every thought in between.

B (36:34)

We end the show with a segment called Fact or Fiction. And so I want to just throw out some claims that we've seen online or kind of heard in real life and you'll tell us if they're a fact or fiction.

A (36:49)

Sure.

B (36:50)

Eating disorders always start with a desire to lose weight.

A (36:54)

Fact or fiction that is fiction. Sometimes individuals will be sick. Sometimes individuals will be stressed. Sometimes individuals will experience life. They might have a traumatic experience, for example. And what will happen is their body will go under their body set point. They'll have negative energy balance and then that's when the eating disorder will start. Start.

B (37:17)

Exercise can also become an addiction. Fact or fiction?

A (37:21)

That is absolutely fact. Exercise can absolutely become an addiction and it can also very much be concurrent with an eating disorder experience.

B (37:30)

Once you've recovered from an eating disorder, you never have to worry about it coming back. Fact or fiction?

A (37:36)

Fiction. You can't change your neurobiology. You cannot change your genetics to that extent. I think you just have to be aware. It doesn't have to be at the forefront of your mind the time, but you definitely have to be steps ahead and make sure that you do the things that you need to do to take care of your recovery.

B (37:55)

You actually mentioned this earlier, but I think it's so important that I'm bringing it back now. Eating disorders have the second highest mortality rate of any psychiatric disorder. Fact or fiction?

A (38:07)

That is fact. It's second to opioid overdoses. And unfortunately, more and more individuals are losing their lives to eating disorders.

B (38:16)

Disorders. Joanna, thank you just so very much for coming on today and for all that you're doing in the United States and around the world.

A (38:23)

Thank you so much. Chelsea, I am so grateful to you for having this conversation and for all of your support.

B (38:33)

You can learn more about Joanna JoannaCandell on Instagram and learn more about the alliance for eating disorders@allianceforeating disorders.com and thank you to everyone who's been listening this season. We're taking a short break, but we'll be back on your feeds come December. Talk to you soon. That Can't Be True is a production of Limonada Media and the Clinton Foundation. The show is produced by Katherine Barnes Mix in sound design by Ivan Koraev. Kristin Lepore is senior director of new content and Jackie Danziger is VP of narrative and production. Maggie Kral Shore is our managing director of partnerships. Executive producers are Jessica Cordova Kramer, Stephanie Whittles Wax and me, Chelsea Clinton. Special thanks to Erica Goodmanson, Sarah Horowitz, Francesca Ernst Kahn, Caroline Lewis, Sage Falter, Barry, Lurie Westerberg, Emily Young, and the entire team at the Clinton Foundation. You can help others find our show by leaving us a rating and writing a review. And if you can think of someone who might benefit from today's episode, please go ahead and share it with them. There's more of that can't be true with Lemonada. Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content when you subscribe on Apple Podcasts. You can also listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership.

A (39:59)

Sam.