Is Child Marriage Legal in Your State? Probably! with Fraidy Reiss and Payzee Mahmod

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Is Child Marriage Legal in Your State? Probably!"

Podcast: That Can't Be True with Chelsea Clinton
Date: November 6, 2025
Guests: Fraidy Reiss (Founder, Unchained At Last), Payzee Mahmod (UK Child Marriage Survivor & Campaigner)
Host: Chelsea Clinton
Production: Lemonada Media & The Clinton Foundation

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode investigates the shocking reality that child marriage remains legally permissible in most U.S. states and was until recently legal in the UK. Through the deeply personal accounts of survivors and activists Fraidy Reiss and Payzee Mahmod, Chelsea Clinton foregrounds the urgent need to abolish child marriage everywhere. The conversation exposes both the human cost and the societal and legal loopholes that allow this issue to persist.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Prevalence and Legal Status of Child Marriage

• U.S. State Laws:
  • As of July 2025, only 16 U.S. states ban child marriage outright; 34 still permit it under some circumstances ([02:13]).
  • In many states, there are no minimum age limits or children as young as 0 can legally wed with judicial or parental consent.
• The Legal Trap:
  • Minors have limited ability to escape forced marriage due to their lack of legal status before 18 ([03:50], Fraidy Reiss).
  • Access to domestic violence shelters is also largely impossible for unaccompanied minors ([04:38], Fraidy Reiss).
• Public Perception:
  • Most Americans believe the minimum marriage age is 18 and are shocked to learn otherwise ([08:32], Fraidy Reiss).
  • In the UK, child marriage was until recently normalized and even public, not hidden ([05:50], Payzee Mahmod).

2. Personal Stories of Forced Marriage

• Payzee Mahmod (UK):
  • Forced to marry at 16; describes the open nature of child marriage in the UK—shopping for wedding dresses as a visible teenager ([07:12]).
  • No one questioned her—family, officials, or teachers.
  • Sought divorce at 18 but faced legal, religious, and cultural obstacles; recounts the lack of support and chilling remarks from a religious leader ([28:18]).
  • Motivated by the honor killing of her sister, Banaz, for seeking her own choices ([16:03]).
• Fraidy Reiss (US):
  • Forced into marriage at 19 by her fundamentalist religious community; spent 15 years in an abusive relationship ([30:57]).
  • Financial and educational independence through college enabled escape, but resulted in family estrangement ("They declared me dead." [32:12]).
  • Identifies patterns of lifelong abuse and the necessity of legal reform to stop the cycle.

3. Societal & Legal Justifications – “VOMITocious Wednesdays”

• Absurd Excuses from Lawmakers:
  • Legislators use arguments such as "taking away children's rights" or referencing religious or family traditions ([19:33], Fraidy Reiss).
  • Some cite their own underage marriages as justification; even invoke religious stories out of context ([20:55]).
  • "Prom Ho Justification"—a lawmaker argued for underage marriage so girls could have sex on prom night ([22:25], Fraidy Reiss):

    "In my culture, girls are not allowed to have sex before they're married. And when they go to our senior prom, they want to have sex. So therefore, high school girls should get married so that they can have sex on prom night." ([22:25], Fraidy Reiss)

4. Activism, Momentum, and Legal Change

• UK Progress:
  • 2022: The UK raised the legal marriage age without exceptions in England and Wales ([13:45], Payzee Mahmod).
  • Success came from having the ear and heart of lawmakers willing to listen to survivors' stories.
• US Progress – Notable States:
  • States are banning child marriage slowly; Maine as recent success; California remains without a minimum marriage age ([35:01], Fraidy Reiss).
  • Despite the perception of progressivism, California's minimum marriage age is effectively 0 ([34:14], Fraidy Reiss).
  • “WTF, MD?” campaign: Highlighting Maryland as a remaining East Coast holdout ([35:55], Fraidy Reiss).

5. Misconceptions and Broader Impact

• Child Marriage is Not Limited by Religion or Gender:
  • While predominantly affecting girls, boys are also forced into marriage; it crosses religious, racial, and socio-economic boundaries ([37:20], Fraidy Reiss).
• Personal Responsibility & Societal Invisibility:
  • Payzee recounts that throughout her ordeal, not a single teacher, doctor, or peer intervened or expressed concern, underscoring societal complicity ([26:03], Payzee Mahmod).
  • "I can say I think I should give credit to myself because at the age of 18, I fought for my divorce." ([27:41], Payzee Mahmod)
• Global Perspective:
  • Millions of girls worldwide are affected; this is a massive and ongoing human rights issue ([37:57], Payzee Mahmod).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Legal Contradiction and Entrapment:

  "[Child marriage] is the absolute horrific legal trap we create because of the contradiction... before 18 in the United States, as a minor, you have limited legal rights that limit the ability for you to leave home... or if you've already been married... getting away before 18 is difficult, if not impossible." (03:50, Fraidy Reiss)

• On Public Shock:

  "Studies show most Americans do not know that child marriage is legal and they want the marriage age to be 18. It's just that they think it already is that way." (08:32, Fraidy Reiss)

• On UK Normalization:

  "Child marriage in the UK doesn't happen here hidden, in very small communities that are segregated, it actually happens very openly... you have to go to a wedding shop, and everybody can see this is a child..." (05:50, Payzee Mahmod)

• On Shame & Honor:

  "The family's honor, the family's name and reputation is upheld on the shoulders of these young girls and it should never happen. It's a huge burden." (16:30, Payzee Mahmod)

• On Lawmaker Excuses:

  "That's like saying that banning child rape takes away a child's right to be raped. It's not a right. It's a human rights abuse." (19:33, Fraidy Reiss)

• On California's Law:

  "Oh, you're 15 years too high, Paisy." ... "Zero." (34:14, Fraidy Reiss & Chelsea Clinton on California's minimum marriage age)

• On Social Responsibility:

  "This issue affects everybody. If you claim to care about children, you claim to care about humanity. This is the first topic you should get involved in." (37:57, Payzee Mahmod)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Opening and Legal Reality Check: 00:06–04:38
• Fraudy Reiss on Legal Difficulties and Shelters: 03:50–05:03
• Payzee Mahmod on UK Normalization: 05:50–07:12
• Public Ignorance and Prevalence: 08:12–10:37
• Legislators' Absurd Excuses: 19:33–22:47
• Major Advocacy Wins (UK & Maine): 13:45–16:13 & 35:55–36:46
• Personal Stories:
  • Payzee’s Story: 07:12, 27:41–29:41 (divorce journey)
  • Fraidy’s Story: 30:33–33:00
• California’s Legal Status: 34:04–35:01
• Fact or Fiction Round: 36:46–38:33

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Tone & Language

The episode is earnest, urgent, and direct—punctuated by moments of disbelief and dark humor (e.g., "VOMITocious Wednesdays"). The guests' stories are heart-wrenching but delivered with clarity, resilience, and hope for change.

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Conclusion

This episode is a powerful exposé of the realities and enduring legal failures surrounding child marriage. Both guests make clear that the fight for change is not over and that everyone has a role to play. The recurring call: If you care about children or humanity, you must care about—and act on—this issue.

Transcript

[A]

Lemonade.

[B]

A quick warning that today's episode discusses sensitive topics surrounding domestic abuse, child abuse and honor based violence. Please take care. And if you or someone you know is impacted personally by anything discussed here, please reach out to the National Domestic Violence Hotline. If you are in the United States at 800-799-SAFE, which is 7233, so that's 800, 7 9. Or if you're in the UK, the IKWRO at 020-7-920-6460. Or talk to someone you trust to help. Welcome to that Can't Be True, a show that sorts fact from fiction, especially on issues impacting our health. I'm Chelsea Clinton and I'll never forget when I, more than a decade ago learned that child marriage was still legal here in the United States of America. At the time, it was legal in every state. Some states had a minimum age of 12, others had a minimum age of 0. I was grateful to see that the New York Times columnist Nicholas Kristof used his platform to draw attention to this crisis just this past week, asking, why do we allow child marriage in America? I certainly join him in asking that question with just deep sense of emergency. My guests today are two women I deeply admire, Freddie Rice and Paisi Mahmoud. They are both forced marriage survivors who have used their deeply, intimately painful experiences to help more people in the United States for Frady, and in the United Kingdom for Paisi, to understand why child marriage is always wrong and why it should be illegal in every inst. Hi everyone.

[A]

Hi, Chelsea.

[B]

Hi, Frady. So nice to see you.

[A]

Great to see you.

[B]

And Pacey, thank you so much for being with us.

[C]

Of course. Thanks for having me.

[B]

So we open up every episode with something called that can't be True. And here in the United States, in July, Missouri became the 16th state to ban child marriage. But that means we have 34 states that still allow people under the age of 18 to be married. I mean, Frady, that can't be true, right? Tell us.

[A]

Well, I like to say that means only 34 states to go.

[B]

Only 34 states to go. You know, Frady, one of the things that I so admire about you is just your indefatigable, like you never give up, thankfully. And I know when you started your work, we were at 50 states. So there were 50 states to go. And I guess now it is 34 states. And yet we've long had a belief, I think I can call it a belief here in the United States that 18 is when you become an adult right. 18 is when you're legally allowed to vote. 18 is kind of generally the age at which you're considered kind of eligible to join the military, if that is what you believe is the kind of right choice kind of for you, what you feel called to do. And yet, as we just discussed, 34 states still allow kids, people younger than 18 to get married. Frady, why is that the case? Why do so many states still permit children to be married?

[A]

And I want to go a step further in your question first, if I may, because go for it. It's not just the absurdity of you have to wait until 18 to do the things you mentioned. It's also the absolute horrific legal trap we create because of the Contradiction in before 18 in the United States, as a minor, you have limited legal rights that limit the ability for you to leave home, for example, if your parents are planning an unwanted wedding for you, if they're forcing you to marry, or if you've already been married in many cases and you change your mind, or this was never your choice. Getting away before 18 is difficult, if not impossible. Getting into a domestic violence shelter difficult, if not impossible. Here in the United States because you're.

[B]

Considered a kid, a minor, instead of an adult.

[A]

Domestic violence shelters across the US Routinely turn away unaccompanied minors, which I know as a direct service provider at Unchained Outlast, the nonprofit I founded to combat forced and child marriage in the U.S. we try to help individuals who are escaping a forced marriage. And when someone is not yet 18 manages to get to a domestic violence shelter without being taken into police custody because they're a runaway, the shelters just turn them away.

[B]

You know, one of the persistent and consistent dynamics that I have observed in the many years I've been proud to support you in this work, Freddy, is how surprised people are. Not even surprised. People are shocked and appalled that, you know, here in the United states in the 21st century, or even in the 20th century, child marriage was still legal. And I understand, Pacey, from your experience in the uk you similarly encountered a lot of people who were like, in disbelief. And so I wonder, Paisi, maybe we can start with you and you can reflect on your work in the UK and kind of what you did to help raise awareness.

[C]

So I think in the uk, the reason so many people are unaware that something like this can happen is because it's so normalized. And I say it's normalized because child marriage in the UK doesn't happen here. Hidden, in a way, in very small Communities that are segregated, it actually happens very openly. So you have to go to a wedding shop to buy a wedding dress, and everybody can see this is a child, most of the time being wed to an older man. You go to a registry office and the person who is officiating that marriage can see, you know, the age. You have to give your id, you have to give your date of birth. And I found that in my campaigning, even speaking unfortunately to members of Parliament, there was shock amongst them that this was the legal age. Which shocks me because these are the people we look to.

[B]

Like you're the lawmaker.

[C]

Yes, exactly. These are the people we look to to set the laws and to make sure that everybody is protected. And that was really frustrating because, you know, I grew up most of my life in the uk. I was a child who was going to English school, speaking English, but yet I was so invisible. In my own experience, I was being taken around having to try wedding dresses. Everybody around me just found that so normal.

[B]

And how old were you?

[C]

I was 16. And to be honest, I was a bit of a late bloomer. So you could see that I was very young and you could see my attitude. You could see how uncomfortable I was. Honestly, none of the dresses even fitted me. That's how small I was and how. How much of a child I was. And yet not a single person ever asked me, what is going on, are you okay? Or ask my parents what was going on. You know what? 15, 16 year old. Do you know that on a daily basis or a monthly basis comes up and says, I cannot wait to be married next week? It's really on the top of my wish list. No, they want to go on TikTok, they want to dress up, they want to wear makeup, they want to hang out with their friends, they want to go and eat a burger with their friends. I mean, I've spoken to so many young people in the uk, I go into schools all the time. And the minute I say, would you be married? They all make a face and say, no, Miss. No way. That's disgusting. You know, it's just so out of touch with the real world.

[B]

And Freddie, here in the us, do you think people continue to be shocked or do you think people now kind of have a better understanding and awareness of the hundreds of thousands of children that have been married in the United States since 2000 and kind of what a gross human rights violation it is?

[A]

Well, no, for some reason they still don't know. And first of all, Paisi, that's horrific. The situation, you Were describ describing where you're showing up as a teen too small for these gowns and clearly upset. And I was asking you what's going on? And you know, here in the United States, studies show most Americans do not know that child marriage is legal and they want the marriage age to be 18. It's just that they think it already is that way. And for some reason, Chelsea, you and I have been screaming about this for what, seven, eight years now?

[B]

Close to a decade. Exactly.

[A]

And yet every time I bring this up at a presentation that I'm giving or a new legislator I'm speaking with in a new state, I get that same level of shock. What? How could that be happening? And yet, Paisi, like what you said, this is legal in the United States. It's not happening in dark, hidden corners. Once people start thinking about it, they say, oh, yeah, I did have that girl in my class who got pregnant when we were in 9th grade, and all of a sudden she didn't come back to school and she was married. When they start thinking about it, they realize they do know people who got married. And unfortunately, this is not a rarity. So not only is it legal in 34 states and just as of a few years ago, was legal in all 50 states, it's happening at an alarming rate. And like you said, Chelsea, 315,000 minors have been married in the United states just between 2000 and 2021. And the average rate of child marriage during that time period is horrific. It was two out of every 1,000.

[B]

Girls and the vast majority married to.

[A]

Adult men, almost all of them girls married to adult men, an average of four a little over four years older. So it's not a 17 or 18 year old, which is still bad, but we're talking about really, in many cases, just predators getting their lucky.

[B]

Legalizing statutory rape. Yes.

[A]

And that's the other thing, that in most states, statutory rape within marriage is not recognized as a crime.

[B]

This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. As seasons change and days grow darker, it can be a tough time for anyone. So this November, Better Help is encouraging everyone to reach out, to check in on friends, to reconnect with loved ones, and to remind the people in your life that you're there. Maybe it's calling Grandma. Gosh, I wish I could still call my grandmother. Or grabbing lunch with a friend that you haven't seen in a while. We know we're healthier when we have community, just as it can take a little courage to reach out to someone you haven't seen in a while. Reaching out for therapy can feel difficult too, but it almost always leaves people wondering, why didn't I do this Sooner? With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is one of the world's largest online therapy platforms, and it's already served more than 5 million people around the world this month. Don't wait to reach out. Whether you're checking in on a friend or reaching out to a therapist yourself, BetterHelp makes it easier to take that first step. Our listeners get 10% off their first [e-mail] CantBeTrue that's betterhelp.com CantBeTrue well, hi everybody.

[A]

Hi.

[D]

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[B]

Paisy, you celebrated a major win in 2022 when the UK decided to raise the age of marriage without exceptions in England and Wales. What really helped the parliamentarians you were talking about earlier finally decide to move forward on this issue to protect children? And kind of what advice would you give to us here in the United States who are still working to have the same level of protection for kids in the 34 states where it is still legal?

[C]

So I'm going to answer the second part of your question first, because I think it's just a Matter of somebody actually caring. That's all it takes. It's one person listening to you and caring. Because with any issue, any law that we need change, it's one person that stands up and says, this is enough and that person needs to hold power. But I think not enough people see this as the urgent issue that it is. I think many people, decision makers, are hearing this and thinking, well, there are more important things. You know, when we are talking about hundreds and thousands of livelihoods, girls who literally are losing their livelihoods, their education, their right to their own bodies, you know, this, this is in the hundreds and thousands. So I think it's having the heart and the ear of somebody who holds power, which is what I feel. To answer the first part of your question, what I feel really changed the outcome of the campaigning. This issue had already been spoken about in the UK for almost a decade from the Vork sector, from the violence against women and girl sector. And we were very fortunate to work with people. The parliamentarians that I worked with, they actually care about girls and they met with girls like me who told them how this had impacted us. And when I would speak to members of Parliament, I would tell them that, you know, this isn't a matter of we just want to change the law because it affects a few girls. We are talking about life and death. Ultimately, some girls are losing their lives trying to leave their marriages and I've seen that happen. I was barely 18 when my sister was murdered in a so called honor killing because she wanted to make her own choices.

[B]

Paisi, I'm so sorry for the loss of your sister and that she lost her life simply trying to actually live her life.

[C]

Yeah, thank you.

[B]

Paisi. I know you're also kind of involved with the effort of the UK around having a clear legal definition of honor based abuse. Why do you think that's so important and how do you hope that will help better protect women and girls?

[C]

In my family, I'm actually one of five girls, so my parents always felt they had a lot of honour and shame to uphold. The worst thing for them would be their daughters shaming them. So the reason we need this statutory definition is so that professionals, particularly who try these cases, can really paint the picture clear that the family's honor, the family's name and reputation is upheld on the shoulders of these young girls and it should never happen. It's a huge burden. And I know that because as a young girl growing up, there were so many things I heard that to this day shock me. I remember being told don't speak to boys at school because everybody will think that you're having sex with them. And this is before I even knew what sex was. I remember being told I couldn't ride a bike because I may tear my hymen again, not having any clue what a hymen was. But these things were so important for my family. The first night I was married to my husband, I had to prove my virginity because my entire family's reputation fell on that. And if I could not prove that I was a virgin, it would be deemed unacceptable and that I would have brought shame on my family. And it's such a dehumanizing, you know, invasive thing that women and girls have to go through sometimes even in medical settings. We worked on a campaign to ban virginity testing three years ago because we had services where girls have to pay thousands of pounds to get a piece of paper where they are physically examined by a male to say that they are virgins, which we know scientifically you can't prove anyway. So all these things are incredibly invasive, dehumanizing and abusive and all fall under that category of honor based abuse. So it's very important to get this recognized.

[B]

And we're having this conversation in 2025. I think Paisi and Friedi oftentimes and goes back to our earlier conversation, people just can't believe this is happening, or they think it happened, you know, in our grandparents era, or they think it happens in other places. Which I think then makes it all the more challenging when we hear some of the defenses of child marriage, the people in kind of advocacy on the other side of this conversation, or even legislatures, who I think rather infamously for Freddie and me, like, used Romeo and Juliet as a defense of child marriage. And I remember just thinking, like, you don't know how that ends. Like, that's really the story that you're kind of using to continue to justify like this immeasurable harm. But Freddie, I wonder if you can just share some of what you've heard more recently from those who continue to claim it's actually a right to be able to marry under 18.

[A]

Yeah. And it really is so infuriating when you hear the story, Paisi, you just told about your sister. And we see stories like this in the United States and we see the profound harm that child marriage causes, the incredible pain and suffering, the human suffering that it causes. And then you hear legislators say things, we actually call them vomitosious excuses that they use for clinging to child marriage. And we do track the vomitoshis excuses and we share them on Wednesdays. We call it vomitosious Wednesdays. And we share some of these because it's almost like if you don't laugh, you'll vomit kind of situation. You have to, because it's so incredibly outrageous. And so one of them is, Chelsea, what you just said, this idea that we're taking away a right for miners, if we called take away the right to marry, which is, to me, that's like saying that banning child rape takes away a child's right to be raped. It's not a right. It's a human rights abuse. And besides, minors have never had the right to marry in the United States. It's a parent and. Or a judge that has the right to enter them into the marriage with often no input required from the minor and no recourse for a girl or any minor who doesn't want to marry or who then changes their mind afterward. But a lot of it is also, you know, Paisley, you talk about talking to parliamentarians and just explaining the human suffering and having them care. Unfortunately, that has not been the experience I've had with a lot of legislators that I have talked with state legislators across the United States who. Well, my grandma was married at 14. Joseph married Mary when she was 8. You know, it was good enough for God. Why wouldn't it be good enough for us? Or in some states, we have found a lot of legislators themselves were married before 18, and they almost take it as an attack on them. If we say we want to end marriage before 18. Are you saying I did something wrong? Well, no. I'm really glad it worked out for you. Or in many cases, because 70 to 80% of these marriages end in divorce. In many cases, the marriage did not work out for them. But for some reason, they think that because they're still alive and they have what they consider a happy life, that it's somehow just not so bad. Marriage before age 18. And this idea that because it happened to me and I'm fine, I mean, I was physically abused as a child and I have a happy life, does that mean we should physically abuse all children? That's not a good argument for marrying off minors before 18. But then it really gets into the absurd. We've heard some absolutely absurd arguments. For example, I have to share this one, and this is more of a therapy session than anything else because I'm still trying to process the.

[C]

This.

[A]

This was actually a female legislator in Connecticut who said, well, in my culture, girls are not allowed to have sex before they're married. And when they go to the our senior prom. They want to have sex. So therefore, high school girls should get married so that they can have sex on prom night. We call this the prom ho Justification.

[B]

You're kidding me.

[A]

I wish I could say I was kidding, Chelsea. This is actual conversation I had with a legislator in Connecticut. This is an elected official.

[B]

Well, I think one of the dynamics that we've confronted here, Freddie, and I understand it was similar, pz, for your work in the uk, is that this is not an issue that splits cleanly on kind of the right or the left or Democrats, Republicans or conservative labor. Like. We have found some extraordinary Republican supporters of ending child marriage, and some surprising, at least for me, I acknowledge, which I'm sure I'm showing my own bias, like Democratic opposition to this issue. But to me, it shouldn't be a political issue at all because it is so evidently one rooted in a child's fundamental human rights and in our obligation as adults to protect those kids. Paisi, when you were sharing your story earlier about going wedding dress dress shopping, I was thinking, I will have failed as a parent if my children grow up and are an adult in that situation. And don't ask a girl if she's okay. Right. Because that, to me, was such a chilling story. And so I wonder, too, if you can share who you felt like was really, maybe surprisingly supportive and who was disappointingly not.

[C]

I think for me, I have to say, whilst I was experiencing childhood child marriage and for the two years that I was stuck in that marriage, when I look at the number of times that there could have been interventions, there could have been support with just one person asking me what is going on, and nobody chose to as an example. And I always talk about this because now I'm a mother by choice. My son is almost four, and it's the most beautiful thing that I've ever experienced because it was my choice and he was born out of love. But when I was married as a child, I became pregnant just a few months after my marriage, and I didn't know that I was pregnant, actually. I had not had access to sex education, so I didn't know how this had happened, although I was, of course, present in the abuse that was taking place, the sexual abuse. But when I turned up at the family doctor, the reaction that I had from the nurse, it was so cold, it was so inhumane that. That it automatically made me feel again even more invisible, because I remember she told me, well, you are pregnant, and the next time you don't want to be pregnant, you need to use contraception. And even the word contraception, it just flew over my head.

[B]

You didn't know what that was exactly.

[C]

So it was almost like I was just being failed at every corner of society. I was just so invisible. And, you know, I was at college, I was seeing people. Friends knew I was married. And this husband of mine, this older man would pick me up after school every single day, but yet not a single person said, hey, why are you married? What is going on?

[B]

No teachers.

[C]

No. No teachers. I was honestly so miserably failed. I would miss school. I remember I would miss a college weeks at a time because my husband would say, I want you to stay home. I don't want you to study. And for me, my education, as a girl who grew up in Iran, I didn't have access to education. It was the most important thing to me. You know, when my parents migrated to the uk, it's all I could think about. The husband that I was forced to marry wanted to remove that from me because it was my power. And so my teachers never asked. I was missing out on important education. And it makes me think now how many children that we cross every single day in the same situation, that not a single person asks them, what is going on in your life? But I can say I think I should give credit to myself because at the age of 18, I fought for my divorce. I fought so hard. I fought against my family, my entire community and a whole system that was against me. And I managed to get a divorce because my sister's death really showed me that there is no way out of this and that my life could be at serious risk if I stay in this marriage. I could be pregnant again, another forced pregnancy. And so I fought for that divorce.

[B]

Pacey, when you fought for your divorce, what did that look like in practice? Who did you first go to? How did you chart your way? Particularly given the very real threat of violence and the painful absence, clearly, of support.

[C]

Yes. So the interesting thing is, Chelsea, and this is where you realize when you unpick some of the other things in our society, you can't seek a divorce in the UK until you're 18.

[B]

Just like here in the US yes.

[C]

So it doesn't even make sense why we have these. These laws. So I remember that when I wanted to divorce, I had to wait a little bit. And I went up and down the high street in London looking for somebody who would help me get my divorce. I had no idea what that whole system even meant, what it looked like. And it took me Two years to get a legal divorce.

[B]

So you were just like going into lawyers offices.

[C]

Yeah. And just saying, I'm married. Can you help me get a divorce?

[B]

Amazing.

[C]

Literally, I. I had no idea what I was doing, but I was so determined because I think seeing what happened to my sister just really opened my eyes that there is no other solution other than getting out of this marriage. And I remember when I went to my parents and I told them I wanted a divorce, they said, absolutely not. Because I didn't only have to navigate a legal system, I also had to navigate a religious ceremony that I had had. So I had to get two sets of divorces. And they needed to speak to the leader, the sort of community leader, religious leader who would do the divorce for me. And they said they wouldn't speak to him. Eventually, I persisted and persisted, and they gave in. And I will never forget the day that I spoke to the religious leader, and he tried to blackmail me, and he told me that I would live a very miserable life if I divorce my husband, if I were not a good wife. And this was my duty. And I. I say I'm so proud of myself because I was so young. And I stood up to this man and I told him, no, I want my divorce, and I'm not backing down. And he took that as utter disrespect, and he said, there is no winning with you. You are a rude, disrespectful young woman who has no future, no hope, so do whatever pleases you. And for me, that was a win because, of course, I didn't care what he thought of me, and I managed to get my divorce. And honestly, it was such a difficult time because around this time, I was planning my sister's funeral. But it was also. I felt like I had to do this even for her, because she didn't get to live her life. It just empowered me. I have to do everything I can to get a second chance at my life, because I know so many girls don't.

[B]

Fredi, I wonder if you could share your story, too, of you also courageously claiming your second chance on life. To use Paisi's framing, maybe start with your forced marriage and then kind of when and how you decided to change your life and to claim your future in a way that you'd not been permitted to do.

[A]

Well, so much of what Paisi said was, well, Paisi was just not only heartbreaking, but also just. Just feels so familiar. And for me, I was forced to marry at 19, so I was a legal adult, but I Grew up in a very fundamentalist religious community. Where you're forced to remain financially and emotionally dependent on your parents. And then the only way to leave that house is through a forced marriage to a stranger that they and the matchmaker choose for you. And then you go straight into that house. And for me, unfortunately, the stranger that I was forced to marry at 19. Turned out to be violent and unstable and very abusive. And so I was trapped for 15 years in this abusive, forced marriage. And during that time, I was required to have unprotected sex with my husband on a monthly basis. So it's not just rape on the wedding night in a forced marriage. It's a lifetime of rape. And this was, of course, after the virginity exam that I was forced to undergo while I was a bride before the wedding. And then when I finally managed to escape, which I did by becoming the first person in my family to go to college. I went to Rutgers University in New Jersey, got my degree in journalism, and then was finally able to escape. Because I didn't have to be financially dependent on my husband. My family retaliated by shunning me. They declared me dead. They told me that they were going to go through the Jewish mourning ritual for me. They were going to sit shiva for me, me, as if I had literally died. And that's actually something. I don't know until today if they've done that. Because I've had almost no contact with them since that time. So I had to also discover the whole world. I grew up so sheltered, without a television, without radio, without real contact with anybody from outside the community, dressed very differently, and then had to somehow find a way to raise my two kids on my own, care for them financially on my own, without any family, and also discover the whole world on my own.

[B]

Friedie, I'm so sorry. I think, though, what is so evident, and should be made explicit, is from each of your stories, your enormous bravery in extracting yourselves from these abusive situations is not the end of the story. There's still enormous work that has to be done to ensure that you are kind of healthy and, well, you're able to lead the lives that you kind of know or write and best for yourselves and your children. Frady, you and I have spent a lot of time talking about and working in California. Because in kind of the popular imagination, Paisley, at least here in the United States, California is often perceived, rightly or wrongly, as kind of being in the vanguard of protecting human rights, protecting the climate, you know, protecting the environment, et cetera. And yet, in California. Freddie, tell what. What is the minimum marriage age in California?

[A]

Should I make Paisley guess or.

[B]

Oh, sure, sure, sure. Absolutely.

[C]

I'm gonna guess 15.

[A]

Oh, you're 15 years too high, paisi.

[B]

Yeah. Zero.

[C]

Okay. Wow.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah. So in this, you know, the Golden State, the land of opportunity and freedom. So there is a lot of freedom there because it's the freedom to rape children with impunity because it's one of those states where the age to consent to sex is 18. So if you have sex with someone under 18, you could be charged with a crime, but not if you first marry the child. So what we're saying is, if you rape a child once, shame on you. You're going to prison. But if you sign up to rape that child again and again as their spouse and really destroy their life and make sure there's no opportunity for them to get past this trauma, well, congratulations. Here's a marriage license.

[B]

And Frady, do you think that. That we finally have momentum in California and some of the other states where you've been working so tirelessly? I mean, I know it took six years for kind of your campaign, in partnership with many others, to finally convince Maine to ban child marriage. So, thankfully, you don't lose a war of attrition. Right? You don't give up. You're fighting for every child across the country. But I do. I do kind of want to ask you specifically about California and the other states where you've been working now for a number of years. Are we getting close to tipping point? Do we have real momentum?

[A]

So as we sit here today, we're no closer in California than we were when we first lost that battle in the 201718 legislative session, unfortunately. And we're not giving up.

[B]

Definitely not.

[A]

So, California, do not think that you have gotten away with this. You have not. We're coming for you. And we also have a lot of other legislative battles. You mentioned Maine. So Maine we got. It was the last state up in the Northeast that still allowed child marriage. And just earlier this year, we won that battle in Maine or that war in Maine. I guess it was a series of battles. And that means that now if you're on the east coast, you have to go down all the way from Maine all the way down to Maryland to find a state that allows child marriage. So our new slogan is WTF, MD? It's an actual, like, what the fuck? Why are you still allowing child marriage? Our new slogan is actually on International Day of the Girl, we're going to unveil this. This is spoiler alert. It's WTF, MD still doing child marriage?

[B]

Ew. Yeah. Ew indeed. To put it mildly. I'm so thankful to both of you for your time today and for your work. And we do kind of have a fact or fiction fast query for both of you. So I will throw out some preconceived notions that people may have about child marriage and have both of you just immediately react to them. Worldwide, child marriage is decreasing. Fact or fiction?

[C]

No fiction.

[B]

Child marriage only happens in religious households.

[A]

Oh. That's one of the biggest misconceptions that I get here in the United States. Aids. Definite fiction. Yes.

[B]

Only happens to girls. Fact or fiction?

[A]

Well, it's mostly fiction because it happens mostly to girls, but it does also happen to boys. But it's much, much, much more likely, unfortunately, to happen to girls married to adult men. I should let Pacey play also. I'm sorry, I feel like I'm jumping on a.

[B]

Well, here. Well, here. The last. The last question I'll direct to Pacey in this section. For people who think Paisi this issue doesn't affect them, would you say that's fact or fiction?

[C]

Fiction. This issue affects everybody. This is one of the largest forms of violence, particularly against women and girls. This issue affects everybody. If you claim to care about children, you claim to care about humanity. This is the first topic you should get involved in. We are talking about hundreds and millions of girls worldwide that are currently living either in a child marriage or have experienced. Absolutely affects everybody. And I urge everybody to care about this issue.

[B]

Well, Paisy and Frady, thank you both so much for coming on. This has certainly been an illuminating conversation, an informative one and often infuriating one. And we can and must do better. And we already are, at least in some states because of Euphrate and in the UK because of you, Paisig. So thank you both so much.

[C]

Thank you, Chelsea. Thanks for being committed.

[A]

Really great to talk to both of you.

[B]

I hope that you will learn more about Frady and the work she is doing by visiting her website, unchainedatlast.org and I hope you'll learn more about Paisi and the work that she's doing by following her on Instagram @paisispeaks.p a y Z E E Everyone, thank you for listening. Let's talk next week. That Can't Be True is a production of Limonada Media and the Clinton Foundation. The show is produced by Katherine Barnes. Mix in sound design by Ivan Koraev. Kristen Lepore is Senior Director of New Content and Jackie Danziger is VP of Nick Narrative and Production. Maggie Kralshore is our Managing Director of Partnerships. Executive producers are Jessica Cordova Kramer, Stephanie Whittles, Wax, and me, Chelsea Clinton. Special thanks to Erica Goodmanson, Sara Horowitz, Francesca Ernst Kahn, Caroline Lewis, Sage Falter, Barry Lurie, Westerberg, Emily Young, and the entire team at the Clinton Foundation. You can help others find our show by leaving us a rating and writing a review. Review. And if you can think of someone who might benefit from today's episode, please go ahead and share it with them. There's more of that can't be true with Lemonada. Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content when you subscribe on Apple Podcasts. You can also listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Thanks so much for listening and see you next week.