Podcast Summary:
That Can't Be True with Chelsea Clinton
Episode: “This is the Level of Brutality We’re Seeing”: Gov. Wes Moore on Shutdown, SNAP & Child Poverty
Date: November 13, 2025
Host: Chelsea Clinton
Guest: Maryland Governor Wes Moore
Production: Lemonada Media & The Clinton Foundation
Episode Overview
This episode, hosted by Chelsea Clinton, explores the human toll of the ongoing federal government shutdown—the longest in U.S. history—as well as the devastating impacts on federal workers, the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP), and wider child poverty. Governor Wes Moore joins as guest to discuss Maryland’s emergency response to the loss of federal nutrition benefits, the politicization of public health and social safety nets, and the broader need for evidence-based, humane governance. In addition, the episode tackles the growing threat of misinformation related to childhood vaccines and what true leadership looks like at moments of profound crisis.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Government Shutdown and Its Human Consequences
- Context: The show is recorded on Day 41 of the historic federal government shutdown (00:07).
- Chelsea highlights the harmful trade-offs under debate in Congress, particularly food security for families.
- "Millions of families, that means millions and millions of kids are at risk of losing their SNAP benefits..." [00:30, Chelsea Clinton]
- Maryland’s Unique Burden:
- Maryland is home to 270,000 federal employees, more than any other state (03:26).
- Over 270,000 kids in Maryland at risk of losing SNAP benefits.
- Governor Moore’s Response:
- Calls the situation a “human-made disaster.” (00:51)
- Declared a state of emergency to keep people fed and invested state funds to temporarily replace lost SNAP benefits.
"We've committed over $10 million towards Maryland's food banks…$62 million to Marylanders so they can help put food on the table through SNAP." [05:03, Wes Moore]
- Immediate retaliation from the federal government ("punish you for trying to feed your people") highlights the adversarial climate. [05:33]
2. SNAP: History, Misconceptions, and the Politics of Cruelty
- Origins and Importance of SNAP:
- SNAP (formerly “food stamps”) began in 1939 in New York as a direct anti-poverty and economic stimulus tool (04:23).
- Politicization and Misinformation:
- SNAP, historically bipartisan, is now a "political football".
- President's claim that most recipients are Democrats is labeled “factually incorrect” and “deeply ignorant” (07:01).
"For the people who it supports…it’s not a political exercise to them…This is life and death." [07:18, Wes Moore]
- Misinformation is deliberately weaponized against vulnerable people.
- Deep disappointment in Vice President J.D. Vance, who previously advocated for understanding rural poverty, now "the face" arguing to cut nutrition support [08:17].
"Watching this shapeshifting that he is helping to lead the charge on…" [09:24, Wes Moore]
- SNAP as Lifeline, Not Supplemental:
"For many, it's not supplemental …it's fundamental." [09:22, Chelsea Clinton]
- Local vs. Federal Leadership:
- Moore’s bipartisan work with rural, often Republican leaders (like Mayor Judy Hamilton) illustrates on-the-ground pragmatism as opposed to Washington's partisanship (11:15).
"People who are closest to the communities...do not let the partisan stuff get in the way of progress..." [11:15, Wes Moore]
- Moore’s bipartisan work with rural, often Republican leaders (like Mayor Judy Hamilton) illustrates on-the-ground pragmatism as opposed to Washington's partisanship (11:15).
3. Weaponized Misinformation and the Stakes for Public Health
- Vaccines as a Public Health Flashpoint:
- Clinton openly laments misinformation about vaccines (17:02), linking it to preventable resurgence of diseases like measles.
"Canada is about to lose its measles-free status and the United States is on track to lose our measles free status..." [18:15, Chelsea Clinton]
- Moore’s stance: "It's important to me because it's science...if you just follow data...you actually bring yourself to better solutions." [17:33]
"No parent should ever have to witness the pain of watching their child have to endure something like measles...when we know these things are avoidable." [19:44, Wes Moore]
- Clinton openly laments misinformation about vaccines (17:02), linking it to preventable resurgence of diseases like measles.
- Disdain for Science and Institutions:
- Chelsea connects anti-science sentiment in the White House to attacks on historical American symbols and institutions (21:05).
"This administration [has] such a disdain for the past, for precedent, for science and evidence..." [21:05, Chelsea Clinton]
- Chelsea connects anti-science sentiment in the White House to attacks on historical American symbols and institutions (21:05).
4. Healthcare Access and State-Level Solutions
- Moore’s Personal Motivation:
- Witnessed his father die due to lack of healthcare as a child (25:42).
"I don't understand how we can be a humane society when we are letting healthcare be something that is a privilege for so few..." [25:42, Wes Moore]
- Witnessed his father die due to lack of healthcare as a child (25:42).
- Rural Health Investment:
- Maryland has built its first new rural hospital in generations and dramatically expanded broadband to promote telehealth:
"We made the largest investments in rural healthcare...first hospital now in generations...will serve six Eastern Shore counties." [27:24, Wes Moore]
- Broadband is framed as health infrastructure: "We now have 99.5% of our state covered." [28:20, Wes Moore]
- Maryland has built its first new rural hospital in generations and dramatically expanded broadband to promote telehealth:
- Federal Budget Hostility:
"Recent budget...cut a quarter of a billion dollars from rural hospitals...taking away healthcare for nearly 250,000 Marylanders." [28:54, Wes Moore]
5. Leadership, Family, and Values
- Parenting Informs Policy:
- Moore engages his children in discussions, values their insight (31:13).
"It's just really important for them to see not just what you're doing but why you're doing it..." [31:55, Wes Moore]
- Moore engages his children in discussions, values their insight (31:13).
- Storytelling & Human Moments:
- Chelsea shares her own childhood story of misrepresenting her father's job as "fry guy at McDonald's"—a call for humility and honesty.
- Leadership Approach:
- Moore: “I refuse to spend a single second reintroducing myself to people who do know me.” [09:07]
- Building tables "big enough for all of us." [13:46]
6. Fact or Fiction Game (Key Myths Debunked)
- Myth: Most people receiving SNAP don't work.
- Fiction. Most SNAP recipients are children, working families, people with disabilities, and seniors. [35:33]
- Myth: Programs like SNAP or child tax credits create permanent dependency.
- Fiction. These supports are tools for sustainable economic mobility. [36:46]
- Myth: President Trump could run for a third term.
- Fiction. The Constitution prohibits it. [38:16]
- Myth: Moore told Trump he was "the greatest president of my lifetime."
- Fiction. Moore recounts the real, much less flattering exchange. [38:59]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- On the punitive attitude of the Trump administration:
"This is the level of depravity, this is the level of brutality that we are seeing from this administration."
— Gov. Wes Moore [05:33] - On politicization of SNAP:
"For the people who it supports…this is life and death."
— Gov. Wes Moore [07:18] - On vaccines:
"It's important to me because it's science."
— Gov. Wes Moore [17:33] "Canada is about to lose its measles-free status and the United States is on track to lose our measles free status..."
— Chelsea Clinton [18:15] - On local leadership:
"...the poisonousness of the politics that we see oftentimes in Washington D.C.—it doesn't have to penetrate our local communities."
— Gov. Wes Moore [13:46] - On investing in rural health and broadband:
"Connectivity shouldn't be a luxury...human connection is vital to our health and well-being."
— Chelsea Clinton [28:46] - On children’s insight:
"Our children are so insightful and thoughtful...you just hope it has that underlying wiring of just know that the world doesn't revolve around you, but the world will be incomplete without you."
— Gov. Wes Moore [32:47] - On leadership:
"Show people what good governance looks like, feels like, why it matters."
— Gov. Wes Moore [24:04]
Important Timestamps
- 00:07 — Episode and shutdown context
- 03:26 — Maryland’s unique burden, 270,000 federal employees
- 05:03 — State emergency response to SNAP crisis
- 07:01 — Politicization of SNAP and weaponized misinformation
- 11:15 — Bipartisanship at the community level, story of Mayor Judy Hamilton
- 17:02 — Public health and vaccine misinformation segment
- 25:42 — Moore’s personal story and motivation on healthcare
- 27:24 — Rural health investment specifics
- 35:19 – 41:07 — “Fact or Fiction” game debunking persistent myths
Tone & Language
The conversation is candid, personal, and at times emotional, balancing policy wonkiness with accessible storytelling. The rapport between Clinton and Moore is warm and mutual, with touches of humor and seriousness befitting close friends and dedicated public servants.
Summary Takeaways
- The federal shutdown’s long shadow is falling heavily on the most vulnerable, with deliberate cruelty in federal policy and budget decisions.
- SNAP, vaccines, and healthcare are all flashpoints in an era of weaponized misinformation and extreme partisanship from Washington—but state and local leaders can, and do, resist.
- Evidence-based, pragmatic, and inclusive leadership—rooted in science and empathy—is vital in restoring trust and serving communities.
- The episode’s mix of personal stories and myth-busting solidifies a call for humanizing, fact-based governance.