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The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast
1KHO 804: You Don't Need Addictive Technology | Gabriela Nguyen, Appstinence
00:55:40
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- [00:01]
A
Summer gets busy fast. One minute you're easing into warmer weather, and the next, you're juggling sports schedules, swim days, camping trips, road trips, late nights around the fire, and trying to keep the house from completely falling apart in the middle of all of it. And if you're a cat family, too, there's still the everyday stuff waiting for you at home, including the litter box. That's why Whiskers Litter Robot is such a game changer. During busy seasons, it automatically cycles after every use, so you're not constantly scooping or dealing with litter cleanup every single day. It just handles the dirty work for you. And the Whisker app notifies you about your unit. Like when a clean cycle is complete, when drawer levels are getting full, or if the unit needs attention. You can always track things like your cat's weight and bathroom usage over time, which makes it easy to stay aware of changes without having to constantly check in. Honestly, during a packed summer, having one last daily chore to think about makes a huge difference. Maintain your cat's litter while focusing on your growing family. Learn more about Whisker litter robot models and starter kits today to get set up before the summer craziness arrives. Take an additional $50 off bundles with code 1000 when you shop whisker.com 1000hours that's an additional $50 off bundles with Code 1000hours@whisker.com 1000hours. Welcome to the 1000hours outside podcast. My name is Jenny Urch. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours outside and completely honored to have Gabrielle Wynn with us today. You are doing incredible work with educating people who didn't grow up immersed in screens and also educating anyone of any age giving tools on how to not be so immersed in their technology. So welcome to you.
- [01:34]
B
Thank you so much, Jenny, for having me on.
- [01:36]
A
So can you give us a little bit of your story? Grew up in Silicon Valley, and you got your. But. But not much television. So you're kind of like, all right, not. Not a lot of screens. But then you get your first itouch at age 9, and then your first iPhone at age 13. Can you talk about the pressures there? Because it was so interesting. You talked about how, like, I read this thing that you wrote that was like, okay, I'm so excited to get this iPhone. You know, there's so much pressure. You're like, I could never have imagined that, you know, within a decade or so, you're gonna be like, I detest this.
- [02:08]
B
Yeah, I think that's one of the things that's been really interesting with talking to more people my age who grew up similarly is. Is realizing like, you never, when you were 11 or 12 and got your first smartphone, you never would have guessed that in. In a few years or however long it took you, you would hate your relationship with your phone and to test it in all these different ways. But I think that's kind of. It's showing us the situation we're in now. Like, why is it that the, you know, the young generation that's supposed to be so sort of like pro social media, pro technology, why are we the ones in many spaces leading this, this resistance against technology, what does that say about the actual technology? We've normalized?
- [02:46]
A
Yes. Yeah. And so, you know, you. You have this time for time to refuse. It's a global campaign to quit addictive technology with Sean Killingsworth and another person as well. And Sean really helped me understand the social wasteland. He was like, okay, it's one thing to choose for yourself to not be on phones, but it's another thing if everybody else is still on theirs. And so you just have me talked about, like, how his childhood was stolen. So can you talk about when was, when was the first time that you started to feel like, okay, I hate this, or I really don't like how this is ruling my life and I want to make a change.
- [03:24]
B
Yeah. So I think it's. I think when I kind of thought about, like, when was this, like, moment? And I've been asked that kind of before, like, what was that, like, point you just kind of, like, needed to break away. And I think, like, most people who are realizing that there's like, something wrong with the way they were, the technology, it wasn't exactly one moment. I think a lot of times you'll see headlines where there's a very, like, clear event, like someone. There was like, some criminal activity or someone had an E sort from Instagram and like, that was the reason they decided not to use it. I think for most of us, it's like a slew of the same types of things again and again. Right. It's the realizing it's two in the morning, even watching YouTube for four hours. It's the I need to do homework, but I keep going on TikTok. It's the, like, I should have seen my friends on Saturday, but ended up playing video games instead through the afternoon. And it's sort of like the sort of piecemeal kind of degradation of your life over several years. And so for me, because I grew up on these Platforms. It took me several years to come to the conclusion like, of abstinence, which is that by fully building my life outside of addictive technology, that is when I would achieve the peace that I was looking for through what were sort of superficial solutions like digital detoxes and, you know, taking a digital sabbath and like stripping down your feet and things that were only ever going to be a tweak, but not actually address the fundamental problem.
- [04:40]
A
Right? Like making my phone grayscale. You're like, these things can help some. But yeah, you, you say building your life outside of addictive technologies. You even talked about Reddit as a thing. I mean, it is just when you read some of the things that you've written, Gabriella, you're like, okay, there really are so many things you say. My girlhood soon deteriorated into nonsense, nonsensical social games, unrealistic filters, addictive short form videos of Instagram, Snapchat, TikTok, Reddit is in there. I mean, they're like, oh my goodness, there really are so many addictive technologies. Can you talk about how this affected your public image? So you say, you know, you're a teenage girl. I just think this is like one of the most heart wrenching things about it. I read a book by Nancy Jo Sales, I think everyone should be called American Girls about all the pressure. You say you were always body checking. And I was like, I don't even know that phrase.
- [05:32]
B
Yeah, so I think that's kind of like to address the question. Like the very beginning of your question was like the idea of teenagers even having a public image. That is fundamentally the problem, right? Like it used to be the case that you only had a public image if you were a public figure or you were, you know, a news anchor or a journalist or someone who like specifically made your career off of being public. And now you are just born and automatically by default of the technology that is placed in your hand, a public figure in a way, like you're a public figure within. Even if you're, you know, you don't have many Instagram followers or anything like that. You are that, that same like sort of micro celebrity even within your own social circle. Like you don't have to be an influencer to be a celebrity. Like this idea, like other people constantly watching what you're doing and the self censoring and the monitoring, that kind of stuff just is naturally, well, intentionally designed on these platforms. But yeah, things like body checking, I didn't like sort of, I didn't develop any kind of like severe psychological issues when it comes to like, you know, self esteem or like kind of body image and things like that. It was obviously definitely up there, but it's, it was body checking things like, just like kind of catching my reflection a little bit too much or things like something that you don't really notice is such a good, glaring thing. Like someone like a doctor sitting across from you and saying like, okay, because of the social media you consume, you now have an eating disorder, right? Which is. We definitely need to talk about the relationship between social media and eating disorders. But in particular case it was, well, okay, if I'm just like kind of looking at myself a little too often, taking a couple like few too many photos of myself, looking at my reflection a little too much, that's fine, right? Like you just kind of like justify that. Like, maybe that's just, you know, you don't, you're not even thinking about it because you're just a teenager, right? You're just thinking like that's just that natural self awareness. But then looking back now in my, I'm now in my 20s, I shouldn't have been doing that to that extent and generations before me did not have the technology to, to facilitate that level of self consciousness.
- [07:18]
A
That's right. You know, it's so interesting, I love that you brought up that the like everybody at this point then does have a public image to your point, where if you have 20 followers, but you're curating this public image of yourself. And the people who had public images in the past, they like had a team. I remember reading one time about some actress and it was like she had a certain person that she would fly in to wax her eyebrows.
- [07:43]
B
Yeah, it was that sort of level of, the level of self monitoring is I, I think I struggle to like, describe how much we've normalized that. Right? And not only have we normalized it, we will reward it, right? Like, right, because if you are a teenager, right, and say you're a girl on, let's say Instagram or tech talk, right? Like you are actually gaining like social capital, like, you know, praise from your friends and oftentimes your family as well, for engaging more deeply in the kind of push pull of the attention economy, right? And then what happens when you transition to become sort of like, you know, later teens and early young adult is that now you switch Instagram and that becomes LinkedIn, right? But then all the same habits, the same like skill set from Instagram is transitioning over into what you're doing on LinkedIn and you end up being rewarded for it. So like the things that I say, for example, I've never had a LinkedIn but say I made one, right? The skills, skills or habits or pressures or whatever that I had incubated from growing up on Instagram would then make me really good at LinkedIn. So now we've created as a society in many other domains addictive technology that's not only normalized, but then you're actually encouraging people to act more that way. So when we like, you know, see someone on LinkedIn posturing about their new job or internship and it's like cringe they're doing it because that system incentivizes them to do it. And if you were not there to view them doing that, they would be disincentivized. You know, the larger system would break down without, you know, the, an app without any users. But so we're all, you know, we're all involved in this system. So yeah, that's the tricky part.
- [09:18]
A
Yeah, a system of addictive technology. One of the things that Sean said that I thought was really insightful and something that I hadn't considered at all was he said we're going to raise our kids different. I was like, you know, I think there's so much to glean from that, you know, with someone who's grown up with it, as opposed to myself who tries to be empathetic, you know, and tries to understand, but cannot ever really understand what it's like to have a public image, what it's like to have the pressures, you know, to even have the phone itself. And so what you talk about with abstinence is you say you don't need addictive technology. You have this 5D method that people can check out and I'll make sure, I'll put a link to get off of social media for good. It's created by Gen Z for all. Can you talk then to the mom who's listening, who's 13 year old, is super excited about getting a smartphone? The pressures, you know, it's like obviously, well, we shouldn't all give in to peer pressure, right? But you, you know, it's like every generation has had their things that all the other kids have and so they really want to have all the things that all the other kids have. What's your advice to parents who are in those years, those kind of mid teen years where this still is kind of the, you know, the big thing to get?
- [10:37]
B
Yeah, I think one thing I'll say is like I completely empathize with how difficult that is to do. I grew up in Silicon Valley. My parents sort of disagreed about technology. That was like a disagreement, like you know, should the kids get it, should they not get it? And it can cause a lot of like, sort of strife and tension, you know, between, you know, the parents, but also between the parent and the child. So I understand how complex of a situation that can be. But I want to say and encourage them to hold strong on that opinion that your kids don't know going to have a smartphone, they're not going to have social media, they're not going to play like hyper immersive video games, they're not going to have access to AI companions and all like the ever extending list of technologies that are made to, to capture your kids attention. And on that note, the they will get through that period sort of like I guess puberty, maybe like a little bit after puberty. And it's going to be, it's going to feel like really tough because their friends are going to get it and they're like their brains at that time. I mean, I remember going through puberty on Instagram. Like your brain is just so lit up by social, your social awareness and valuing what other people believe about you. But it won't be very long until they are able to look back and say that they appreciate that you kept them off of it. You know, like in parenting there are things that you will hold strong about and just hope that in 30 years your kids will look back and be like, you were right. But I can tell you when it comes to the smartphone and social media, that time will come a lot sooner than a lot of other things that you're going to think that you're hoping they're going to thank you for. You know, it's going to be, I think that's one of those things that especially as the larger public awareness grows around these technologies, you know, digital literacy, like what does it mean to be digitally literate? And all that kind of stuff is changing. You're not going to have to wait till your kid is 40 until they realize that you were right. Give them it until probably like right after puberty, 16, 17 probably when they're realizing, hey, like I can actually make eye contact with my friends. I actually just want to be very involved in having close relationships with people. I don't want to do the little dance, literally and figuratively on the, on the Internet to feel like other people see me. Like those kinds of realizations will come, come fairly quickly. So just hold strong through those kind of couple Years and it'll pay back dividends.
- [12:48]
A
Can you give a sense of what it is, what the experience is like? I know that's a really broad question, so, I mean, take it however way you will and maybe even just a couple snippets, but one of the things that you talk about is how Gen Z is the first generation to be raised on social media and have profound experiences growing up online. I actually am super impressed, Gabriella, that, like you and Sean and so many others are able to parse like, okay, this was my experience. And then I could imagine how it would have been to have an experience had I been born even just 10 years earlier, 15 years earlier. So it's so valuable when you're able to. To say to someone who hasn't experienced it, this is what it's like.
- [13:33]
B
Yeah, in one phrase, I would say that the phone, the phone and then the apps, however you want to find that social media, video games, everything in it becomes the center of gravity of your life. I think sometimes we like to have this kind of rosy idea. I think parents in particular, they're like, oh, my kids with social media phones, I have it on, lock my daughter, I lock her to 30 minutes, the boy, no more than an hour. Video games, then we go about the rest of our lives. The problem with that is that that 30 minutes, that hour that they allot, changes the way that your son or daughter will go about the rest of their day. So it cannot actually be contained. And I think that's kind of the sort of the mistake that we make when we talk about even, like the word screen time, right? Like that implies that somehow the goal is just to reduce the time as much as possible. But what I can tell you as someone, and I will just expose myself now, if my parents were to have limited me to x amount minutes, 15 minutes on TikTok Instagram, trust me, I could do whatever I was not supposed to be doing in 15 minutes. And now, even if you think about it, right, like for the people who are listening, listening to moms who maybe use Facebook and the teenagers who maybe use TikTok, it only takes a few minutes to go on there and then cycle through an entire cycle of human emotion in just a few minutes, right, you can go on there and within three minutes, see something absolutely horrifying, then something that really uplifts you. So motivating, then something that kind of makes you think, and then something like you kind of go through and you've flattened that in your life because you no longer will then engage with the various experiences that you would need to go through otherwise to then feel those emotions.
- [15:05]
A
Right.
- [15:05]
B
So like measuring the exposure of technology, your kid to technology in time is missing more than half the picture. Wow.
- [15:13]
A
Their center of gravity, I think that's the part that someone can't understand. If you, like, grew up in a different era, you're like, okay, I, you know, it's like, oh, and everyone is, you know, addicted. I'm not everyone, but like, people are struggling at whatever age, it doesn't matter. And I know you talk about there's like 70 year olds that are coming to abstinence and being like, I need help. So. But it is, I think, different when it's your entire cohort of generation. You know, I'm like, well, if I don't text a friend back, they don't care. It's just different. The center of gravity, I think, is such a great way to put it. Can you talk about how you've traveled abroad and you see it everywhere?
- [15:49]
B
Yeah, I think that's something that's been very interesting to me. It's like part of the Time to Refuse campaign was, you know, we really like wanted to intentionally create this as an international endeavor because. And part of something I already knew kind of research, you know, kind of working on this in graduate school is how universal this problem is. And I think because of obviously, naturally the way the media works, where it can be a lot of like, very focused on Western democratic communities, it can seem like it's only a problem here. And I think, like, in the Time to Refuse campaign, we hosted this, one of our stops in Kenya, in Nairobi, and it was so big we had to split the event to two days. Like the, like the amount of fervor that people are feeling towards this issue in places that are in many ways sort of very different than where we've held a lot of the other conversations about this in the U.S. you know, in North America. It's something that, I mean, I don't want to say, like, it shows us the extent to which, to the extent to which we have this is a problem. But also it also shows us who's willing to stand up to this issue. Right? Like, it is moms and his parents, it is legislators, it is teachers, professors, students, across nations, across creeds, across races, different lifestyles. And I always kind of make this joke, like if you were to take all the people who kind of reached out to abstinence, decided like, they want to learn more, adopt the lifestyle, and just took this like somehow across all the different countries, a huge group photo of us with no caption. You would have absolutely no idea like who all these people are. Because the people in it are just, I mean there's no, there's no look to somebody who has a bad relationship with technology. Right. Like, there's no, you can't just like pull someone off the street and be like, oh, I've identified you as such. Right. Because of the. I think in great part is the fact that the technology that has become problematic has been adopted in so many different domains of life. Right. Like what abstinence calls people to not use is not just social media. It makes it probably a bulk of it, but it's social media as we know as many different things. You know, Facebook x Instagram, TikTok, but also like hyper immersive video games, AI companionship services. You know, there's like online betting apps, there's like sports gambling day trading apps. There's like so many different ways to get so sucked into the Internet that if you were to actually like parse out who are the target demographics for each of these products, it's, there's, there's literally an addictive version of technology for every person, regardless of what you're into, where you're from and what you believe about life.
- [18:14]
A
Wow. Regardless of your age. Yes, absolutely. And so that's why this is so overarching and so helpful because what you're doing is helping people in all walks of life. So abstinence.org and also this global campaign to quit addictive technology. A time to refuse. Just time to reviews.com so I'll make sure I'll put those links in the show notes. I think for a long time I underestimated how much your outdoor space impacts your day to day life because ours just wasn't working. It felt unfinished. We had a couple mismatched chairs, no real place to sit comfortably. And I've always had this idea that I'd add lighting or make it feel cozy, but never actually got around to it. Then we started looking on Wayfair and it made the whole process feel doable. We found pieces that actually fit our style. Simple, functional, a little bit modern, but still warm. And suddenly the space came together. We added seating, a few subtle decor touches, and now it's a place we naturally end up at the end of the day. The best part is how easy Wayfair makes it to get there. You can narrow everything down so quickly, compare options, read thousands of reviews and feel confident in what you're choosing. And delivery was seamless, which matters when you're trying to upgrade a space without adding more stress. It finally feels like a space we use instead of a void. Get prepped for patio season for way less head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W A Y f a I r.com Wayfair Every style Every home. You know that moment when you realize you've double booked something or completely forgot something that mattered? Yeah, we've had plenty of those before Skylight keeping track of our schedule felt reactive. We were always catching up instead of actually being ahead of things. Now with the Skylight calendar, everything is visible, clear and in one place. It syncs with all your calendars, Google, Apple, Outlook, and it gives you daily, weekly or monthly views so you can actually see what's coming. And I love how simple it is to manage not just events, but also chores and routines. The Task Is feature has been huge for us. It gives kids a sense of ownership over their responsibilities, and it turns things like homework and daily routines into something kids can actually engage with without constant reminders. And honestly, it just takes so much pressure off. When everything is organized and visible, your home feels calmer. You're not juggling it all in your head anymore. Skylight Calendar is designed to bring families together and make everyday life run a little smoother. And if you try it and don't love it, you can return it within four months for a full refund, no questions asked. Right now, Skylight is offering our listeners $30 off their 15 inch calendar when you go to myskylight.com 1000 hours that's my S K-Y-L I G H T.com 1000 hours for $30 off lately I've been more intentional about what I wear day to day and being drawn into pieces that feel effortless, comfortable and still put together. It makes getting dressed so much simpler and honestly, Quince has been my go to. The fabrics feel elevated, the fits are flattering, and everything just works without overthinking it. Quinn's makes it really easy to refresh your everyday this spring with pieces that feel as good as they look. They use premium materials like 100% European linen, organic cotton and ultra soft denim so everything feels high quality right from the start. Their lightweight linen pants, dresses and tops start at just $30 and they're breathable, easy to wear, and perfect for repeating throughout the week without getting tired of them. And I have to say, the everyday fleece joggers have been such a win for me, especially on Those cooler spring mornings, they're soft, they fit really well and they still look put together enough to wear out of the house, which I love. Everything at quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. So you're paying for quality and craftsmanship, not brand markup. Refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use. Head to quince.com outside for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com outside for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com outside. So you have this 5D method for getting off social media for good, created by Gen Z for all. And you talk about quitting about, about replacing social media with a robust habit of direct line communication. And the starting point here that you talk about is preparing. So you don't actually get to the five Ds until you say you gotta prepare and you say this is super important. Do not cut corners. Can you talk about the. It's like a baseline of asking important questions. Like it starts there.
- [22:22]
B
Yeah. I think that's one of the sort of common mistakes with this idea of like, I'm going to get off social media, I'm going to reclaim my life, is you're jumping literally straight into the water. And especially for people who grew up in these, these technologies, you have to do a really deep analysis of like, of not just like how, what apps am I using and what I use them for is like what kind of person have you become as a result of the fact that you grew up on these platforms? Right. Like they're not, it's not just like one thing that you do of the many facets of your life, like this technology you've used in for several hours a day, every day since you were a kid. Naturally, because these platforms are also designed to change your behavior and the way you see the world, it will change you as a person over time. So in this preparation stage, we really want to encourage people to go through this and ask very hard questions, which are things that naturally a 16 year old is not asking themselves. Which is what do you think the meaning of your life is? What do you consider time well spent? Who and what do you care about? Considering the fact that this is the one life you get and you get one shot, what are you going to do with this time? And it's working from that basis. Those answers and I'm not here to say that. I'm not here to tell people that there is one answer to these questions, to these questions. But the fact that you have to first ask those questions and do a deep personal exploration, then get into the actual process, like the neurological experience of getting off of these technologies. But if you don't start with that, you kind of are not fueling the process of getting offline with the right fuel. Like, I think especially with like the desperation and the frustration that's so common with people who are kind of like doom scrolling, feeling that they're doom scrolling their life away. They leave in like a rage and they leave like in a fury. They leave like, you know, New Year's resolution, this is what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna quit. But then don't actually realize that like what they're doing is they're committing themselves to an entire new way of seeing the world. Like, you are no longer going to be manipulated by like political tinder on, you know, political tinder by, you know, people yelling at each other on the Internet, by constant advertisements, you know, scam ads, AI slop. Like, the way you're going to view the world by the end of the 5D method is going to be very different than when you start. So you have to prepare yourself emotionally and with the right answers to these questions.
- [24:28]
A
These are incredible questions. You say it helps you to create a point of reference. So here's some questions. What's the value of time? What are the meaningful relationships that I care about? What does it mean to be a human being? These are deep questions. Can you talk about the fears? I mean, obviously that plays a part of, of why people do not set their technologies aside. And what's interesting, I read somewhere that you, you have figured out how to use these things as a tool. Like, you're like, I've got. Because there are like light phones and so it's not like you into. What if someone's like, oh, I need Uber, I desperately need doordash, whatever. You know, these different things and you're like, there are workarounds. So can you talk about some of the fears and how you help people work through those?
- [25:17]
B
Yeah, I think with fears, it's all oftentimes the same things kind of again and again. There's kind of two, two sides of the fears. Like, there's fears of like, what would happen if I don't ever escape. So it's things like, I'm going to lose my life, I'm going to lose so much time. I'm going to become a person that I don't recognize that I don't want to be anymore. Like those ones. And then there's the other side. It's the fears. People are caught between two. Which set of fears is worse, right? The fear of, like, oh God, I'm losing my life, or the fear of, okay, if I leave, then I won't know what's going on. I'm going to lose all my connections with people that I care about. I won't be able to engage with my passions and my hobbies. I'm going to feel left out of things. Like, sort of the fear of missing out. And then people are caught in a very difficult situation, which was like, which one of these versions of my life is less awful, right? And so the whole situation is just messed up. Like, why are we, especially with, you know, kids and teenagers, like, having them pick between these two versions of their lives, right? Like, the former is. The former is. Is awful. It feels like physically bad in your body and in your mind. And the second one is like the fear of uncertainty that human beings are naturally disposed to avoid at all costs. Psychologically. We want to go with something that's more familiar, even if it's negative, than something that is unfamiliar and uncertain. And so why are we even stuck in this situation? But I think through the process of the 5D method, the process of adopting abstinence in whichever way you do it, people come to realize a lot of those fears that they were worried about were either unfounded, sort of. That they didn't even come to pass. Things like, oh, if I don't know about the news and everything, people will kind of like look down on me or something like that for. For not knowing, realize it's not. That's not founded, or I'll lose my connections. And you realize it's like, well, when I got offline, I lost followers, but I didn't actually lose friends from that, right? So then this problem, a lot of the fears about leaving, leaving, sort of social media or addictive tech are kind of self resolving, which is like, if I were to leave, you know, Instagram, for example, and then a bunch of people stopped talking to me. Well, if just getting off of one platform was the reason that the whole relationship fell apart, then maybe the issue is not leaving Instagram. It's the fact that the relationship you had built was not meant to last because of the way that you built it through Instagram, right? Like, it opens up a whole, like, larger can of worms about the way the person Lives, their lives. Which is the reason why, you know, leaving addictive technology can be and is a very meaningful experience. And I would not, if I had the power, just snap my fingers and have everyone in the world who's addicted to any kind of technology just like instantly be released from it. Because it's the process in which you engage to get out of it that becomes very meaningful. With the sort of clients that I've worked with. I had this one in particular who was, we started working when he was, he was 18, he's 19 now. We worked like over several months to bring him from like an really high, like 11 and a half hour screen time, something like that, down to almost nothing. But the process he had to go through realizing who does he care about? What does he care about? What is time itself? Not even how to spend time. The first part of the how to spend time question is what do you think time is? Is time a material resource that I own and I have control over, or is it something in which it opens? It's very philosophical, this experience getting offline. But this is why I see it also as one of the core experiences of Gen Z and then now Gen Alpha is how do we relate to technology in general. It's like it's a moment in which not just our generations but the larger society at large can then hit a hard reset on the way with technology. I think that's kind of the sort of positive side effect from all of this.
- [28:57]
A
I love what you said about the self resolving fears. How interesting, Gabriella, that you're like, okay, there's these two sets of fears. One is that I'm gonna, you know, lose my, my life, my friends, you know. And then in only one of the set of fears is self resolving. It's like when you set it aside, you're like, no, you're probably. Your relationships get stronger, you have more time for hobbies and, and it resolves on its own, whereas the other one would not. The other set of fears. You talk about analog activities and I love this, creating a list of. So this is all in the preparation part. And then the 5ds people can find on the website. We'll probably have time to talk about a couple of them. But the preparation obviously is such a critical component of this. And one of them is like, well, what do you like to do? What analog things do you like to do? And I had heard someone say one time like that the goal of, I don't know if it's YouTube, any of these probably addictive technologies is that you have no hobbies. That is their goal, is that you have no hobbies because then you'll spend all your time on their platforms and then they will make more money. So can you, Katie, give us a some ideas? What are hobbies you like? I mean, do you see that, that your life experience? And I kind of see this as a mom, like with kids, you know, a kid could have no hobbies. And I think that hobbies help you learn, that you can grow, you know, they help you love life. So any ideas of hobbies for listeners? What do you like to do and why is this piece of it important?
- [30:25]
B
Yeah, so one thing I want to, I want to note with like, listing out hobbies is that it's sort of in the preparation stage for a reason, right? It' in sort of ebbs and flows of the amount of time you're going to have over the next couple years of your life, you will have time to engage in hobbies to some extent. But I really want to downsize the sort of role that hobbies play in this process. I think, especially if you consume Internet content about this, it's like, delete social media, engage in hobbies, and be like a full human being. The reality is, especially if you're like a young adult and you're going out to the world and between all of the things that must be taken care of in life, you realize, like, on a practical level, how little time there actually are for hobbies, hobby, right? Like, so think about it. What do we do in a given day especially, and this is young adult. You know, maybe you have a partner, but you don't have any kids, right? You work 40 hours a week at least, right? Then you have to like, grocery shop and then you have to make sure you call your mom, call your grandma, see your best friend, and then, you know, take the dog out. Like, there's like, make sure you file your taxes. Like, there's like all these different things you have to do. And so before we even get to hobbies, it really have to start from basics and what the first one is. Like, the things you were already doing, just do them, like at a human pace. You don't need to listen to the lecture while you're also walking to do the laundry at the same time. And then squeeze in a call with your mom where you're like, oh, hey, I'm alive. Great. And then you hang up, right? Like, you can actually take 15 minutes, talk to your mom and then do the laundry and then stop and chat with your friend who lives in the same dorm as you. Like, live at a human pace after. That part is like, do the things you were not doing that you should have been doing. Sleeping enough, exercising, not eating out too much, cook your food at home. All of those two things. On top of, you know, school duties, work, little other menial tasks. You'd be surprised how little there actually is for the hobby. But on the Internet, naturally, it's very grand. It's like you'll see a video of someone who's like, I quit social media. And then they're like finally walking up the side of a tall mountain and they're perfectly in a meditative state and it's like, promise. I literally am just going through all the things of adulthood and I'm able to have some amount for hobbies, but none of them are grand. I'm not kayaking every weekend and I'm not, you know, I'm not making an entire oil painting every like a couple times a month. Like, I'm not doing this. Like, I'm. We'll go for walks and I'll read and I will like. But realistically, like, I think I, we. I don't want to set people up for this idea that like, you, like, will quit social media and you'll get a six pack and be fluent in Mandarin. Like, you're not. Like, it's not going to happen overnight, like maybe over a period of time. But I think going back to basics for the overall level of like human flourishing that will come from this experience and it's really returning back to basics and doing those things consistently and with, with integrity.
- [33:03]
A
Yeah. So getting back to that human pace, I like this. Then you say, you know, in time. So I like this wording of add in lighter hobbies. Not, not the big ones, but ones that are a little less time consuming and a little less laborious and a little less expensive. And then over time, maybe you can, you can add in that big one. But yeah, this, this realistic view of what you're going to be able to do. Your outdoor space should feel like you. And for the longest time, ours just didn't. We had those random plastic chairs that somehow followed us from house to house. A patio that felt more like a pass through than a place to gather, and a grill that we kept saying we'd replace someday. It just wasn't a space we were excited to use. And then I found Wayfair and everything kind of clicked. We added simple, comfortable seating, an outdoor rug that grounded the space, and a few pieces that actually matched the look I had in my head. Now it feels like an extension of our home. We eat outside more, the kids linger longer, and it's just easier to be out there. What I love is how simple Wayfair makes the process. You can filter by size, style, budget, read real reviews from real homes, and with Wayfair Verified you know you're choosing from items that have already been vetted for quality, and having everything in one place from seating to lighting to decor made it feel manageable instead of overwhelming. Get prepped for patio season. For way less, head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W A Y F A I R.com Wayfair Every style, every Home this time of year in homeschooling is really special. You're wrapping up projects, looking at how far your kids have come and helping them finish strong. It's also a great moment to reinforce key skills and build confidence as you head into summer. And as routines start to shift with travel camps and more time outside, it helps to have something that keeps learning steady without over complicating your days. That's where IXL can be such a helpful tool. IXL is an award winning online learning platform that fits seamlessly into homeschooling. It offers interactive practice across math, language arts, science and social studies from Pre K through 12th grade. It personalizes learning for each child, keeps them engaged and gives parents clear insight into progress. What stands out is the real time feedback and progress tracking. Kids get immediate explanations as they go and you can clearly see growth over time, what's clicking and where. A little reinforcement can go a long way. It's a simple way to finish the year strong and keep skills fresh heading into the summer. Make an impact on your child's learning. Get IXL now and 1000 Hours. Outside listeners can get an exclusive 20% off IXL membership when they sign up today at ixl.com 1000hours Visit ixl.com 1000hours to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. Lately I've been trying to simplify my closet, just choosing pieces that are comfortable, easy to wear and still look put together without a lot of effort. That's really why I keep coming back to Quince. The quality is there, the fit is right and everything just makes sense. Quince makes it easy to refresh your everyday this spring with pieces that feel as good as they look. They use premium materials like 100% European linen, organic cotton and ultra soft denim so you're getting that elevated feel without overpaying Their lightweight linen pants, dresses and tops start at $30. And they're the kind of pieces you can wear again and again because they're breathable, versatile and just work. One thing I've been wearing a ton lately is the everyday fleece joggers. They're perfect for those cool spring mornings. Really soft, super comfortable, but still structured enough that I don't feel like I'm just in loungewear all day. And that's the thing with quints. Everything is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands because they go straight to ethical factories and skip the middlemen. So you're getting great quality without paying for the label. Refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use. Head to quince.com outside for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com outside for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com outside. You are so right, Gabriella. I'm like, I remember when I was like, gosh, it's a lot of work to be an adult.
- [36:56]
B
It is exactly to be an adult to the level in which we want to be, right? Because you don't want to be like, oh, I'm an adult. But then you don't sleep enough, you don't, you know, eat well. Like, you don't do a lot of basic things that. Because sometimes we can have a warped idea of like, what does it mean to be an adult? It's like, oh, to like pay all your own bills and get married and have kids. But part of the, there's like multiple levels of like adultness, right? Of course, depends on who you ask.
- [37:20]
A
Right.
- [37:21]
B
But like the overall. Because the, the means the end goal of like a hobby, right? Is like you're for your over your overall benefit. But I can guarantee you that you taking on that hobby you've always wanted to do is not going to benefit you as much if you're not eating, sleeping, exercising, talking to, hanging out with people. But you're making time for the sort of expensive, grand hobby. The overall net benefit to your health is not going to be as much because you're not giving yourself the building blocks in which to positively experience life in the first place. I'm not going to have energy to drive out to a lake and kayak on Saturday if I haven't slept. No. Finishing my work. And you know, people like, there's people I should be talking to and I'm not doing and I'm behind on everything and I'm not actually able to enjoy being out of nature and things like that. Right?
- [38:07]
A
Yeah, that's a really good point. So you're giving people a realistic idea like you're not going to be riding horse and knitting your underwear.
- [38:14]
B
You can though.
- [38:15]
A
And baking your sourdough.
- [38:16]
B
You can, but it's sort of like I just, just go through all the other things first and then at the end of it, because the thing, again, this is like, this is. But then not being able to like knit your underwear at the end or go horse riding, like that, this, that whole like not being able to do that is also self resolving, right? Because if I've gone through, I'm now sleeping enough, I'm now eating well, I'm now spending time with my parents and my friends and my cousins and my aunts and uncles and stuff like that and feeling fulfilled. I feel like I actually won't need the, like horse riding and the knitting my underwear. And this is not making a statement on horse riding or knitting your underwear. Like, it's like you'll realize it's self resolving. Like you actually didn't even need that in the end. And you realize the means to which the hobby, the self fulfillment that the hobby was a means to. You already kind of, you, you, you got it, you like went through it already, through the things you did before.
- [39:03]
A
Wow, how interesting. I do agree with you that the, you know that often it's sold is not the right word, but there is this like almost expectation that if I put this screen away then I'm going to be able to do these thousands of things. And so if you don't have an accurate view of it, you might feel disappointed. So this is really good advice as part of the prepare, which is you say, you know, slowing down the pace and going at a human pace for all the things that you have to do and then maybe add in some light things. I'm going to read what you wrote. You'll be surprised at how little time is left in a day when you've gone to work, tended to your family and relationships, run errands, worked out and done all of this at a reasonable pace. It's good wording because I think a lot of us are doing it at a frenetic pace and not even doing all of the things. Okay, so the last prepare piece, which obviously is a, is a really important one too. It deals with our relationships. Can you talk about, I mean, this is a really different way of doing relationships. Right. Where instead of trying to keep up with a thousand people online, you are maintaining less amount of closer relationships but deepening them. Do you feel like with Gen Z there is in a good understanding that my life might be better if I have less relationships but deeper ones?
- [40:23]
B
I think part of it is that by spending like building our relationships through the Internet, we've like warped what someone even perceives to what it even, even means to participate. Yeah, a relationship, right? Like when while I was spending my life online, I didn't realize that like other people posting and myself posting, like we were turning each other into TV basically. And we really think part of our participation in the friendship, right? Like, I remember this was like people would like, you know, bother you to like, like their photo, like to, to experience me online. Like that was part. And if you did not do it, right, it was like, oh no, I think it's dumb or whatever, whatever. Like that was a statement you made on behalf of the friendship or how important the person was to you. Like the pressure for other people to like, that you would put on other people or other people would put on you to like post about their birthday or their, you know, congratulations on their graduation or whatever, right? Like, experiencing people digitally has become a part of the center of the gravity in which many young people today, and myself included, would measure our participation in relationships. So we have to, like, in this preparation stage, even question not just like who you care about, like, what does it mean to care about other people and how do I actually communicate that? Right. And the problem with raising young people online is that these platforms that are made to capture your attention will warp your world, worldview, will further like, churn your perception of what it means to take, to like be part of a relationship. Like, be, like actually actively take part in it. Right? And it's not until you actually like remove the technology altogether that we're kind of left at sort of, you know, a square one with like, with having to reanalyze. Like, what does it mean to actually participate? Like, what does it mean to like how, like, for example, like to give a concrete example, like the frequency in which we communicate with somebody, right? Like online. Growing up online, you're taught that the frequency in which you communicate with someone is like the utmost, highest thing. I remember, like on Snapchat, right, you had this list of best friends and it's absolutely crazy the way what the, what is communicated to a teenager from having like a Snapchat best friends list, which is the idea that you should always be aware of Knowing all of your friends in order of how close they are to you, like in ranked order. If you think of outside of Snapchat, how absolutely insane that is. Right? Like, imagine really growing up and you're like, you're. But you're given like a tally and there's an actual, like, machine churning the Snapchat app that is like measuring in numbers, like somehow mathematically. And they keep the formula secret how close you are with somebody. Imagine always keeping that tab of everyone. The closest, I think was like six or seven people. Forget how many at all times. Right. Like how. How kind of crazy that is. And so it makes you think that, like, oh, if I'm not very infrequent contact with somebody, then that signals a. A level of closeness in the relationship. And then you get older, you get off technology and you realize that, like, the quality in their interaction is actually really important. Right. Like, I would prefer now that I'm older and looking back on it, that I'm not exchanging 20 snaps or more, probably a lot more than that with someone in a day, but that at the end of the day, or at the end of a couple days, a week or whatever, we had a day where it was just the two of us phones away, we're just talking face to face next to each other. I can hear your voice. You can feel like the warmth of my, you know, like me sitting next to you. Right. Like, that is like, that's closeness. Closeness is not having people on your close friends list on Instagram or. Right. Like that's not. But it changes your. The way you perceive it. And you have to deconstruct that perception before, before you can actively depart.
- [43:47]
A
I've always been intrigued, and I mean so much empathy for even like the unstated. Like you just said, people are like, well, you gotta like my photo or this type of thing. And like there's all this unstated communication. Yeah, through algorithmic. Through algorithmic interaction. Through. I mean, it's just so bizarre, Gabriella. Like, what if you just were at piano lessons? So you didn't like the photo. You know, you're busy. You know, you set your phone aside, your parents make you look at, put in a drawer or whatever. And yet, like, that the lack of interaction is communication.
- [44:23]
B
Exactly. There's no time. That's part of the problem is that there is no time apart. And if you are never apart, then it gives you more. Like you're forced into social interaction more often than you would otherwise want to. Right. Because if you have social media and the notifications and people can post whenever they want. The expectation for you to engage then bleeds into all the other hours of the day. So it makes sense, right? Especially if you're like a teenager going through a, you know, sensitive developmental growth spurt that, like, it doesn't matter that I got eight hours of sleep. I'm willing to give up four of those hours of sleep to stay up and attend to all the menial errands of the attention economy and the social games and networks that I'm playing. Because to me, at this time, all I can see is that it's worth it, and I'm not seeing the fact that I'm losing multiple hours of sleep every night over years. Right. So I wrote an essay about what I call was like, the social media chessboard, basically, is what I kind of was, essentially that, you know, there's all these, like, kind of different metaphors for describing social media, like smoking, driving, all these different ones. Social media is really in its own category. I think we're much better suited by combining different metaphors to describe different aspects of the social media experience than, like, picking just one. But one of the ones that has come to me was, was chess. Like, growing up online is like playing chess. There's, like, this meme of, like, called, like, playing, like, 4D, 5D chess because of the way that all the platforms, like, mix together. And I'm 100% saying this from the confessional. I'm not here to say to shame anyone for it. I literally not only used to play these games, I would reinforce them. And I would be part of the problem is you would play these, like, complicated social games on these platforms, but it's because the actual features available to us would then egg on our participation in this. For example, on Snapchat, you could make private stories. So you had a public story, then you had all the private ones you could make. Instagram is now the same. So then what do you do? If you were to signal levels of intimacy to your friends or whoever, you could then have a public one and then make concentrically small lists of more people. And then if you wanted to signal to someone that you didn't want them included in that level of intimacy anymore because you felt you've drifted over time, you. You would take them off the list and hope, maybe hope that they either notice or don't notice, depending on the situation. Really there's, like. That's, like, one example and then another one, you would, like, post the photo. But if it was, like, slightly provocative, you'd like have it blink for just a second, right? So it's not. Because if you leave it for too long, it's like kind of attention seeking. Like there's all this like multiple language, like social languages that are all mixed together and it is exhausting. Like, this is right, like human, regular human, adult, you know, adolescents, is already exhausting. But imagine you throw in all these platforms. I can. I had like, such, like kind of fun conversations with my friends over, what are these games that we either still play or used to play. And it does a look in your, in their eyes when they realize that, like, oh, gosh, like it is like kind of weird that we do that or used to do that as teens on whatever X platform. Right?
- [47:24]
A
Like, there's just thousands of rules, thousands of unspoken rules that are extra that no one else used to ever have to deal with. And all of this unspoken communication, it's not words, words.
- [47:35]
B
It's.
- [47:35]
A
It's a very subtle. I didn't include you on this personal story. I kicked you off of this or I didn't like one photo. It's just why. It's like the wild, wild west. It's awful. It's like so awful. I think anybody who's listening who didn't grow up that way is like, gosh, my teenage years were hard enough throwing all this extra. And then add on the fact that you're not sleeping and add on the fact that there's a lot of pressure to look certain way. I mean, it's, it's just a mess. So what you're doing is so impactful. Abstinence.org and then you go through these five Ds about how to, about how to start to get off of these addictive algorithmic apps and things like that. Can you talk just a little bit about letting people know that you're going to do it? And then how do people react? You know, the sort of initial foray into, well, now I'm going to call you or now I'm going to. We're not going to interact on Snapchat. We're going to actually interact in person. I'm going to call, I'm going to text. Text maybe, but we're going to change how we interact. Are people usually pretty positive when they hear something like that?
- [48:38]
B
Yeah. I think one of the fears that seems to come up is like, okay, like you don't want to feel like you cut other people off. And, you know, of course it's like yourself and not feeling you want to get cut off. From the world, but also other people. You not wanting to feel like you kind of are making other people feel like you're pushing them away. And this sort of self resolving thing of this is that, you know, the solution to that is communication. Like social media is form of communication, but the solution to getting off social media is also communication. Right? So if you are. So that's why in the preparation stage we, you know, we ask people, make a list of the people that you'd like to keep in touch with.
- [49:10]
A
Right.
- [49:11]
B
And that alone is already kind of a hard thing to do because you might realize like, oh, there's actually a lot fewer people on this list that I would like. If I don't hear from them for two weeks, like it would actually be a problem and then just send them a text message, give them a call, be like, hey, like I'm getting off social media for XYZ reasons. List out, be explicit and actually in expressing why you're doing that, like set yourself, set the situation up for the other person to have buy in to you. Instead of saying like, oh, because I, you know, hate social media so much, say, you know, phrase it in a way that's like I'm getting off of it because I feel like XYZ things I don't like about it and I'm really hoping it helps with my well being and I, but I really want to make sure that our relationship is intact when I get off of it. And so I'd really like to like, you know, can we use text messages or call instead and like give it an opportunity to not just maintain the relationship but actively nourish it because right. That's kind of like part of one of the big reasons people want to get off social media, right Is like they want to focus more on the relationships that they care about. So take the moment in which you're getting off to be the first step towards that and invite the other person into a closer relationship with you. And I don't think maybe, you know, maybe this will be the first time I don't know anyone who's ever invited someone to, you know, someone that they care about and they know that cares about them to have a closer relationship with them and then regretted or you know, that they were rejected by like, you know, my cousin said no, like I just don't, I don't have never heard that. I don't think it would ever happen. If you express to people and if we just did this more generally, express to people how important they are to us and that we'd like to be closer. And if I, in saying like, you know, I feel like if we like call and text and stuff, I'm able to like pay more attention to this relationship. If they, they're not going to say, they're not going to say anything about. And they won't push you away.
- [50:53]
A
So I mean, it's so heart, it's so heartwarming. It's like, wouldn't you love it if someone was like, I'm getting off all this, you know, I had 2,000 people following me. But you're one of the five people or one of the 10 people that I really care about. I think it's really heartwarming. Very moving. We just spent such a good portion of time just talking about the preparation phase, but just goes to show how well this has been thought through and how important it is to consider what your worldview is. You know, technology is its own worldview, so what is yours? You know, how do you want to approach the world? And then that's going to help you to be successful in these five Ds, decrease, deactivate, delete, downgrade. It's all on the website and depart. Can you talk about what's going on in the world of students and just like a little bit postgraduate. So this actually launched as a student organization, abstinence, but now it's part of. Is it part of the school of education?
- [51:47]
B
Yes. We were no longer affiliated directly with them, but that was the start. Yeah.
- [51:51]
A
Okay, that was the start. So can you talk about in general, is it still just a huge uphill battle or do you feel like the dominoes are starting to fall and people are really making steps to enhance their well being.
- [52:07]
B
Yeah, I think the public conversation has moved very quickly over the last let's. Well, we're in early 2026, over the last year and a half, two years. And there's been people who have been at this for like several years already. But I think the public conversation has moved quickly on multiple levels. Like in terms of schools being aware of this, young people being aware of their own, their own habits, older people of course, as well, you know, legislators, medical professionals. A lot more research has also come out in the last couple years as more people have been like, hey, I think, think there's kind of something wrong. I think in part this is a good time to do it with the AI revolution in full force right now. So it's not an uphill battle in the sense of getting people to be more aware of the problem. I think it's so universal and people, there's so much lived experience between just you can pull off a random person off the street and just have them like, hey, describe to me your relationship with technology. And I doubt anyone's gonna be like, no one's gonna say it's perfect, right? They'd be like, at the most part, like, it's fine, but no one's going to be like, no. Like, you know, my phone helps me self actualize and I'm becoming a more enlightened person every day. Like, I don't think anyone's saying that, but it isn't. It feels like uphill battle still because of just how large the tech industry is. I live in Silicon Valley. I was born and raised in Silicon Valley, I still live here. And it becomes more and more obvious to me every day, like how, how large and how much reach, how much power these companies have. But that's kind of the role of collective action. It has been throughout history. The power of grassroots movements also cannot be understated. But it's going to take a lot of effort, collective will and time as well. Not that there's much of it because Gen Alpha is currently being baked, cooked as they say, five by the Internet. So we don't have time to waste.
- [54:00]
A
That's right. That's right. It's so true. I love what you're doing. I think this is incredibly important for parents to be aware of. And if you're, if you're Gen Alpha and you're listening in with your parents, then for you to be aware of as well, can you just give a little insight into what you do in terms of how you use technology? I'd read a thing where you're like, okay, I've got different phones for different purposes and in some ways you're like, oh, that seems inefficient, but actually it's brilliant because the phone has taken, has taken the place of so many things. Like you used to have a Rolodex that, you know, or you used to have a, an actual camera, you know, used to have a desktop computer. So it does make a lot of sense to say, okay, well I, every once in a while I am going to need to get Uber for my work or whatever the situation is. You're like, I'm going to use this in this situation and this other thing in that situation, what do you do?
- [54:50]
B
Right. So I think the first part of that was having a mindset shift around technology. Like, you know, especially like what I call the Silicon Valley trinity, which are like sort of three main values that guide the development of technology. Efficiency, productivity and convenience. Right? Like we, when we think of like the newest, sexiest iPhone, that's what we're thinking, like, will bring us like, it will be the fact that it will make us generate a lot of things like work or whatever, that it will make it so that the food we order comes really quickly. Everything's so seamless, so frictionless. But then when I shifted sort of my mindset around technology and realized that like me switching the technology that I use like the hardware, not like just the software, right, the actual hardware, the phone that I use, switching to like, you know, to and from like a desktop laptop, depends on what I need. It is that ability to change my, like the actual technology that I'm using that I realize is not restricting my access to the Internet. But because the Internet is designed such that it's always trying to get to me, it's keeping the Internet from me, right? Like I switched my phone from my sort of my primary mobile cellular phone to what people call dumb phone. I don't like that term. But I don't use a smartphone as like my like main device or anything like that anymore. And it gives me like a peace of mind knowing that like the entire like it's not just about not being addicted to my phone, it's having the peace of knowing that I, I won't have to be constantly monitoring my screen time with the Apple screen time app and the me downloading the screen time blocker and all the kind of different things like playing that game and running that race. I know that I can just have the phone and just live with the peace of knowing that I'm fine, right? Like, you know, and so like, I think a lot of times what people will see without the mindset shift is that oh, it's so inefficient. But then you realize that like the inefficiency is the purpose of doing that. Like it is the fact that the technology is more inefficient that it, it provides guardrails in the decisions I make in my life, right? Like if I, I think a more kind of obvious example of that is like if you're giving your 12 year old boy a smartphone, right? The fact that it's so seamless for him to access like any video game or gambling apps that he could possibly ever want on the phone is part of the reason that to not give him the phone is like how easy it is to download the apps. It's not just about telling him like, hey, just. Just don't download them. It's the fact that you're giving him a device that the software can be so perpetually changed such that you have no idea what's going on over a given number of years. Right. But if you give them a phone, or either no phone at all, but if you give them a phone that in its design is made such that you will never have, like an unexpected update or a new thing that was pushed down, you don't know what your kids are using, it gives you the peace of mind, and it gives the kid technology that fits their developmental stage and allows them to actually more independently grow as a person. So good.
- [57:38]
A
Yeah, interesting. You said you don't like the phrase dumb phone. I mean, maybe it's just a phone.
- [57:43]
B
It's. It's just a phone. I think part of it is using people say, like smartphones, a supercomputer. I think we. Part of what abstinence is like, even it's built into, like, you know, as the word right, is to create a new set of language for how we describe or. I think part of the reason I created the word abstinence was because it was very long to describe to people the way I was living. I was like, okay, well, I don't use social media or anything that kind of has those features, and I don't use. It was a very long thing to say to people, but now I can just say, oh, I'm abstinent, and provide a resource. Or as the word kind of becomes more popular and kind of gains traction with people, it's easier to describe dumb phone. It implies one thing, but maybe saying that having a simple phone is dumb is not the right way to describe it, and then we need to change it to something else that is part of. Of the. The process of the social movement is to change the language we use to describe it. So it's fun for.
- [58:33]
A
Yeah, I love that. I want to read this last thing that I read somewhere, somewhere that was written somewhere. And I just think this is wonderful. You say oftentimes when I'd meet a new friend, they'd ask me for my Instagram. I mean, this is the whole culture, right? That's what happens. Right off the beginning, they'd ask me for my Instagram, TikTok, TikTok, Snapchat, or something similar to stay in touch. I'd say, sorry, I don't have any of those, but I can give you my phone number. And as sure as night follows day, they'd say, really? You Don't. Good for you. Sometimes they'd add, I wish I could do that. To which I respond, you can. Wow. It's powerful. It's powerful what you're doing. It's an honor. I so appreciate you taking the time this hour with us. It's really helpful. And I'll make sure I'll put the links in the show notes. There's a lot that people can learn from. There's just different courses, and so there's these five Ds that you can go through with your family and as well as the global campaign to quit addictive technology. Gabriella. We always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood in Silicon Valley?
- [59:31]
B
That was outside. Outside there's this red wagon that my family had in our backyard, and I have two brothers. And when we play in the backyard, we just load each other up into the wagon and pull each other around, around. And then the wagon would capsize inevitably, because the horse. The, like, you know, horse playing between a couple siblings all around the age of like, 5, 6, 7 or whatever. And so then we've carried that into adulthood. So we still, you know, we still wrestle and stuff like that. But it's one of my earliest memories, for sure.
- [60:06]
A
I love it. Tip your sibling. That's awesome. Well, I so appreciate this. What you're doing is incredible, and I'm. I'm honored to have gotten this conversation and excited to see what's to come because I know you guys are constantly out and speaking and putting out articles that encourage people to change their worldview on this. Thank you so much for being here.
- [60:25]
B
Of course. Thanks, Jenny.