Loading summary
Transcript52 lines
- [00:00]
Jason Kebler
Foreign.
- [00:04]
Joseph
Hello and welcome to the 404 Media podcast where we bring you unparalleled access, hidden worlds, both online and IRL. 404 Media is a journalist founded company and needs your support to subscribe and go to 404 Media Co as well as bonus content every single week. Subscribers also get access to additional episodes where we respond to their best comments. Gain access to that content@ 404 Media co. I'm your host, Joseph, and with me are all of the 404 Media co founders, the first being Sam Cole.
- [00:36]
Sam Cole
Hey.
- [00:37]
Joseph
Emmanuel Mayberg.
- [00:38]
Emmanuel Mayberg
Hello.
- [00:39]
Joseph
And Jason Kebler.
- [00:41]
Jason Kebler
Hello. Hello. I'm traveling this week, so I'm on a different mic, so if I sound different, that is why. Thanks for bearing with us.
- [00:48]
Joseph
If it sounds weird, please bear with us. So let's jump straight into it, Jason. You've just published a couple of stories in very, very quick succession based on something that went viral. And we'll all get into that. And you got a ton more, tons more information about it. And it actually sort of symbolizes a lot that's happening in the media industry and with AI as well. But the first story, the headline was, chicago Sun Times prints 8 AI generated summer reading list with books that don't exist. So this thing starts blowing up on social media. Definitely Tuesday, potentially Monday as well. Correct me if I'm wrong. What was this thing that was blowing up on the face of it?
- [01:37]
Jason Kebler
Yeah. So the Chicago Sun Times is a newspaper in Chicago that's been around for a long time. There's a Chicago Tribune and then the Chicago Sun Times, the second newspaper in Chicago, and it still exists. But basically they ran this special insert in their Sunday paper this past Sunday called Heat Index, your guide to the best summer. And this was a 64 page special section of the newspaper that was like, what you should be doing this summer. We can talk more about what was in it. Yeah, it was just like, have fun in the sun. Here's books you can read over the summer, here's things that you can do, so on and so forth. And in that, they had an article called Summer reading list for 2025. And in that reading list, they suggested a bunch of books that do not exist. So they were real authors like Isabella Allende, you know, Andy Weir, who wrote the Martian. But they, they suggested reading the last algorithm by Andy Weir. And then the text of the article says, quote. Or like the blurb in the article says, quote. This time the story follows a programmer who discovers that an AI system has developed consciousness and has been Secretly influencing global events for years. This book doesn't exist. Like, Andy Weir has not written this book. Isabel Allende did not write a book called Tidewater, which is what they said to go read. So this is noticed by actually a book talker on threads, of all places. And then it got picked up on Blue sky and it went like mega, mega viral because it was an example of a printed article that was clearly AI generated in some way.
- [03:34]
Joseph
Yeah, and I guess that's what makes it a little bit different because obviously longtime listeners of the show and readers of the site will know there's tons of AI slob everywhere all the time. AI generated articles or press releases or whatever. But this is different because as you say, the Chicago sometimes is basically like an institution or at least an incredibly long running newspaper and media company. Right. So it's a little bit different almost now to have this physically printed AI slob. Or I suppose I should back up a little bit. And was it just clear from the get go that this was probably AI generated just because it was getting stuff wrong? Was that the implication?
- [04:17]
Jason Kebler
I mean, that's what people were saying. That was how it was shared on bluesky. And so I went and I bought a digital copy of the newspaper from the Chicago Sun Times and I scrolled through it and I downloaded this Heat index section, which again was 64 pages long. And I started scrolling through it. And my origin story in journalism is that I first worked as an intern at Washingtonian magazine, which is a magazine in Washington D.C. and my job was to fact check articles like this or like sections like this. I mean, it was all sorts of things, but basically like every local newspaper or magazine does this thing where they're like, summer is coming up. Here are outdoor movies you can see, here's new restaurants you can check out, here's concerts you can do. And they source this by like having a bunch of interns go to the websites of every music venue in a city and like compile this. Like that's how it used to be. That's how I did it. And very specifically, it will be like, go see this concert at this Chicago music venue. Like that. That's what this section probably should have been. And something that I noticed right away was that it was super generic. Like they didn't mention Chicago even one time in the entire section. The entire section starts off with like a hundred things to do on your summer bucket list. And it's like, go snorkeling in the crystal clear waters near your home. And it's like, oh, yeah, there's. Yeah. Lake Michigan is not crystal clear. I don't know if you've ever checked it out. And the Chicago River, I don't know. I mean, it is, like, a fun place to be in the summer, but it's not crystal clear. Snorkeling waters. And so I was just like, this is not. Like, at the very least, is incredibly, incredibly generic. And then I saw that none of these books existed, and there was actually no byline on the book list.
- [06:22]
Joseph
But was that common when you did this as well? Like, when you did this work, would the intern's name be on there, or was it also no byline?
- [06:30]
Jason Kebler
Well, it was funny. Often it was not on there because it would just be like a calendar listing. So it was like, it wouldn't say, like, Jason Kebler compiled this list of concerts. Usually our name would be in the front of the magazine saying that we worked at the magazine. And then to get a byline, you had to actually write something. So you would have to write some blurbs. And sometimes you would get your initials in there, and sometimes you would get your actual name. And it was actually a big to do whether you got a byline or not. But I noticed that every single bylined article in the entire article section said Marco Buscaglia. Like, it was. It was all done by one person. And so I emailed that person, and I was just like, what's going on here? This is going viral. Did you use AI? And he pretty much immediately responded to me and was like, I did use AI and I'm very sorry. And I'm like, I got caught. I'm embarrassed. He said. And then he called me, or I called him, rather. He gave me his phone number, and I called him and he said, quote, I do use AI for background at times, but always check out the material first. This time I did not. And I can't believe I missed it, because it's so obvious. No excuses on me, 100%. And I'm completely embarrassed. And then I talked to him on the phone and he sort of reiterated the same stuff. He was just, like, honestly, like, visibly shaken. I could tell he was pretty upset. And just saying, like, he knows that this is a big deal, that he's really embarrassed and knows that there's probably going to be consequences for him.
- [08:17]
Joseph
Yeah. Which sucks, because it sounds like a genuine mistake. Right. So you get that information, you identify the author, you speak to them for a little bit, you publish this story, you then get some more information, because, of course, well, there's still the remaining question of, well, who actually made this? As in who produced this? Because, as you say, one part of it being really generic is almost an indicator of it potentially being AI generated. But there's actually more of a business reason, because it turns out this inlet wasn't just in the Chicago Sun Times. Right. I think it was in a Philly paper or something as well. So then you published a second story called Viral AI Generated Summer Guide printed by Chicago Sun Times, was made by magazine giant Hearst. How did that come about?
- [09:13]
Jason Kebler
Yeah, so I talked to people at the Chicago Sun Times, I talked to executives there, and they basically explained how this happened. And they bought this entire package from Hurst, which is a huge magazine company. Like, William Randolph Hurst is like, one of the first, like, media executives in the United States ever. Like, very, very famous. And they. They own a ton of magazines, but they also own this company or this subsidiary called King Features, which does syndication. And they syndicate things like car talk and Hints from Heloise, which is like, how to clean your kitchen. Like, it will be. It's like an advice column. They also do some horoscopes, they do some crossword puzzles, and then they do a lot of comics. They also weirdly do a column by Dr. Oz. And so, like, newspapers around the country will buy this content and put it into their newspapers because it's cheaper to do that than it is to, like, do real journalism. And this is like a. This is not a new thing. Like, this has been going on forever. Like, newspapers will not have their. I mean, some of them have their own cartoonists, for example. But very often, like, the journalism in a newspaper will be produced by the journalist at the newspaper, but then the comics will be nationally syndicated. And so, like, all of the. You know, they'll buy Garfield from this company and put it in there. Yeah, they'll buy a crossword puzzle and put it in there. And so as part of this business, King Feature sells these inserts, which are just separate, like, basically mini newspapers that go into the newspaper. And the Chicago Sun Times was like, we actually don't even read those. We just bought it, put it, like, send it to press, and it got in there. And now we are upset because clearly we should have been reading it, but we did not. And now this is very embarrassing for us.
- [11:14]
Emmanuel Mayberg
That was the saddest part of the story, in my opinion. Obviously, the AI component of it is something we report on all the time. And it's bad, but I'm aware of it. The fact that somebody at the paper was like, we Just straight up said we don't read what goes in our own paper and maybe we should is so messed up and not what I expected. I also started out writing in printed newspapers. Hate to sound this old, but like that's just where the entry level jobs were back in the day when I was trying to get into this industry. And I wrote for these type of inserts. Like a thing that I would do is there was like a weekend edition or a holiday edition of the paper and they wanted like a gift guy type thing. And I wrote about video games. So I was like, here's 50, you know, things you can buy for your kid. And I definitely got edits, you know, even though it was like an insert and it was sponsored and it was like definitely looked down upon, which is why I was able to get that type of work. I got edited by like a real newspaper editor before they printed it because it was in their newspaper and I thought that was the standard. And the fact that this isn't the standard at the Chicago Sun Times is frankly shocking to me. And I just want to add like, yes, it's an old newspaper. I don't know the ownership history. I'm sure it changed hands multiple times. But it's currently owned by Chicago Public Media, which also manages wbez, which is their public radio station, which is a major. It's like one of the biggest public radio stations in the country. That's where this American Life comes from. It's like this very well respected organization as well. And they have some news sites that I think are well respected locally. So it's not like some fly by night operation that's like flipping AI generated websites for money. It's like a real news organization that is doing this and just like really sad state of affairs for printed media. And I think possibly where, you know, new media hollowed out new media companies might be headed because newspapers have been gutted and kind of stumbling along for decades at this point, which I think is maybe how you get such low standards.
- [13:53]
Jason Kebler
Well, yeah, I think that's really important. And like we're not going to do a history lesson about the Chicago Sun Times here because I would get something wrong. But like it was failing for a long time. Like the paper was in like a really precarious situation for a long time. And it changed hands multiple times in the 2010s when a lot of local newspapers died. And like the fact that Chicago Public Media bought it was seen as this like really big deal because they bought it and they're like, we're going to focus on local journalism and a non profit model. And, you know, they sort of like took it back from this, like, investment firm that owned it. And so there had been a lot of trust lost already over the years because the newspaper had been like, super hollowed out. And over the last few years, like under this public radio nonprofit situation, and also as a unionized newsroom, like, they focused a lot on reporting on Chicago news again. And so then for something like this to happen, it really, like, undermines a lot of that, like, really hard earned trust. Like, you can lose that very, very rapidly. And I feel really bad for the journalists at this newspaper because they had nothing to do with this, like, at all. And the union gave us a statement saying, like, we didn't even know that this was happening, like in any way, shape or form, because why would they? They're busy writing articles and doing reporting and publishing things. And then like a business person somewhere has run a calculation that if they buy this package from this third party company and then load it up with ads, they can make more money than it costs to, you know, actually like, buy the content within there. And clearly, like, the newsroom just doesn't have the resources to review this sort of thing, which is not me saying, like, this should have happened, but it's just a really sad situation, in my opinion.
- [16:14]
Joseph
Yeah. And I mean, Emmanuel touched on it with sort of the shock that this stuff isn't even edited. But Jason, just to go back a little bit, when you had this conversation with Chicago sometimes executives, what was the vibe in that conversation? Because you've spoken to the author, now you're speaking to the actual paper. What was the vibe of the second conversation?
- [16:39]
Jason Kebler
I mean, they were kind of like a hard day. Hard day for us. Like, we're going through this. I do think that I don't know how to say this, and it's in the article, but he was basically like, we are creating guidelines for how our journalists use AI in the future and that they don't have a public version of it yet because they're still working on what those will be. But it's very clear that the rule at Chicago sometimes is not going to be don't use AI. They're like, we already use AI for some data processing and things like this. And I mean, we talked about it a million times on this podcast, but it's just like one mistake like this where you invent quotes, you invent a person. Like AI invents some numbers or research that doesn't exist. And you publish it, it's like you lose your credibility immediately. And so, I mean, I. I'm curious what y' all think, but, like, as you mentioned at the top of this show, Joseph, we have talked about AI swap endlessly on this show and at 404 Media, and some of them get a lot of attention. But, like, this story went extremely viral, like, everyone is talking about. And I'm curious why you think this captured so much attention so quickly.
- [18:09]
Joseph
Well, Sam, I feel like it's funny because whenever Sam or any of you say, whoa, this thing is really big on my timeline, I go to my Blue Sky. I'm like, I'm not seeing this at all, but I think I follow, like a hundred people and I don't really scroll. But, Sam, I feel like you have a better grasp on what is going viral on bluesky. Any idea why this particularly popped off over there?
- [18:37]
Sam Cole
Yeah, I mean, I think your bluesky in particular is like infosec OPSEC people, right?
- [18:43]
Joseph
Mostly.
- [18:44]
Sam Cole
Mine is a lot of AI ethics research people and also just normal people who are interested in the stuff that we're interested in. Blue sky really, really hates AI. Like, as a. As a group, I think I can, like, generalize and say that. Like that platform, specifically when something chaotic or catastrophic or even just like embarrassing happens in the world of AI and especially slop, people point at it and say, this is what we're talking about. This is what we've been warning people about. This is what we're mad about when people use AI in general. Because then you start to see the cracks show in the form of print media. And I think maybe it being print hit different for people. I think people still see print journalism as this kind of sacred thing, which is funny because it's so desperately underfunded and disrespected. But if something happens in the digital media world, I think it's different to people than it getting sent out to your house and hitting the printers and things like that. Did we all start at newspapers? I also started at a print newspaper and watched the printers put my stories out there. We're all old as hell, I think, is what we've learned.
- [20:10]
Jason Kebler
I don't think I've ever worked for a newspaper. Washington's a glossy magazine, which is notably not a newspaper, just because they were like, oh, we only do this once a month. Like, take your time, call. Like, I remember I used to have to call restaurants to ask them what their phone number was. So I would call the restaurant, but you're already calling them and Then they'll be like, okay, is this the right restaurant? Okay.
- [20:35]
Sam Cole
Is your refrigerator running? I used to read the Washingtonian. I was. I was a fan of it. Um, but, yeah, I mean, it's. Yeah, I think people still have this idea, this, like, lofty idea of printing as infallible or something. And, you know, in a way, it's like, once it's out there, once it's printed, you can't just, like, make an edit, make a. You can make a correction as part of another issue, but you can't just go in and fix the errors and have it reflect the record, reflect that. It's like, once it's out there, it's out there. So, you know, I think that's why people are. They saw this a little bit differently. Also. I think there's, you know, there was obviously this noble effect of things going viral. When someone's mad about something, everyone loves to be mad about something.
- [21:12]
Emmanuel Mayberg
So.
- [21:12]
Sam Cole
So that happens a lot on social media in general and probably happened here, but it ended up being, like, a really interesting path to follow. So I'm glad Jason did the work on tracking the guy down and also tracking down the executives responsible for this.
- [21:29]
Jason Kebler
Yeah, I think the last thing I want to say is, like, we wouldn't do this. As in, like, I'm not. I don't want to defend sort of, like, anyone involved, but I think there's, like, a really big pile on at the moment of the fact that this occurred. And I think that the issue here, like, I don't want to defend anyone who did this, but the issue here is, like, a really, really bad, horrible, horrible, systemic issue where the economics of local newspapers are not making any sense. And a lot of the people who are running them not speaking about any specific newspaper, broadly, the economic. The people who are running them, like, don't really know how to figure it out. And so they are, like, throwing at the wall. And that includes, like, oh, we will just, like, syndicate this random section from this random company and put it in our newspaper and not even read it because we had to lay off all our copy editors because there's only, like, two people who work here now or whatever, and that's happening, like, all over the country. And then also, I don't want to defend the person who did this. Again, like, I. I don't use AI in this way, and I don't think that people should use AI in this way, and I think it's, like, bound to keep, like, blowing up in people's faces when they do this. But a lot of companies are forcing their employees to either hit productivity levels that are impossible, they're being like, told that they must use AI or they will be replaced. I don't know what happened here. Like, as in, I don't think that anyone told this person to use AI, but at the same time, like putting together an entire 64 page summer guide, there's like 30 articles and he wrote, he wrote. Or like his name is on every single one of them and like he.
- [23:41]
Joseph
Was assigned all of those.
- [23:42]
Jason Kebler
Yeah, yeah. And it's just like, I mean, I doubt he was paid very well for it just because the nature of what it is. And I just like, I think that we're in like a super, super, super bleak situation. And so, like, if it wasn't this person, it would have been someone else who did it for some other newspaper at some point. And it's like, this is a fight that people are wanting to have right now. And I think for very good reason. But, like, you could easily replace these characters with any other person. Like, this is going to happen again. We've already seen it happen a few times to online publications and it's a symptom of the disastrous economic situation that journalism is in, that newspapers in particular and that local news in particular are in. And then also the fact that in order to fix this problem, they're like, oh, we'll just use AI. It will make us a lot more effective and efficient and blah, blah, blah. And that's happening in every industry right now. And it's like leading to disastrous public trust issues, disastrous economic issues. It's just not a good situation.
- [24:59]
Joseph
Yeah, totally. I'm sure it will happen again, as you say. All right, we'll leave that there and when we come back, we'll talk about more about trust in, I guess, public institutions, but more education. It's all about ChatGPT and AI in schools and a bunch of documents that Jason got as well. We'll be right back after this.
- [25:36]
One of the smartest apps you can have on your phone in 2025 is upside down. Upside gives you the power to earn more on the stuff you buy all the time. Whether you're filling up your tank, going out to eat, or shopping for groceries, the Upside app lets you earn cash back on every purchase. Upside users are making as much as $280 a year. Whenever I need to fill up my gas tank, I use Upside. Whether I'm near my house or out on the road, there's always a nearby gas station on Upside where I can seamlessly earn cash back. Use Upside to get cash back on the things you're already buying. To get started, download the free Upside app, use my promo code 404 and get an extra 25 cents back for every gallon on your first tank of gas. On upside, there's more than 100,000 gas stations, grocery stores and restaurants where you'll earn an average of 8% back on restaurant and grocery purchases. The best part? These stack on top of whatever credit or debit card rewards you might already be using. Start getting hundreds of dollars back per year, download the free Upside app and use promo code 404 to get an extra $0.25 back for every gallon on your first tank of gas. That's an extra $0.25 back for every gallon on your first tank of gas using promo code 404.
- [26:56]
Emmanuel Mayberg
This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Thankfully, talking about our mental health is no longer taboo, but there's still progress to be made. 26% of Americans who participated in a recent survey say they have avoided seeking mental health support due to fear of judgment. When people hesitate to get help, it's not just bad for one person, it can impact their social circles and communities. This Mental Health Awareness month, let's encourage everyone to take care of their well being and break the stigma. The world is better when people are healthy and happy. It's worth continuing to normalize therapy because it can help us deal with a really stressful and anxiety anxiety inducing world. It's not just for people who have experienced major trauma. Therapy can help everyone. BetterHelp has over 10 years of experience matching people with the right therapist from their network of more than 30, 000 licensed therapists and their flexible online platform makes it easier to fit therapy in your busy schedule. We're all better with help. Visit betterhelp.com 404media to get 10 off your first month. That's BetterHelp and H E L p.com 404media.
- [28:02]
Joseph
Hey, it's Joseph again. If you're a new listener to the 404 Media podcast or even a long time one, you might not be aware of all of the impact our journalism has had recently or how we even got here in the first place. In 2023, the four of us quit corporate media to go independent. We were sick of working for a VC backed company that put profits before journalism that gave birth to 404 media. Since then, we've stopped the spread of AI books in public libraries, triggered class action lawsuits against AI companies, got Congress to pressure big tech in various ways. And we've even shut down surveillance companies. This real world impact is only possible because of our paying subscribers. As a general journalist owned business, they are the engine that powers our journalism and where the vast, vast majority of our revenue comes from. So please consider signing up today for $10 a month or $100 a year at 404 Media Co membership and get bonus content every week and access to all of our articles. Thank you and enjoy the rest of the pod.
- [29:24]
All right, and we are back with the second set of stories here or the singular story the headline is. American schools were deeply unprepared for chatgpt public records show. Jason, you wrote this one as well. It's not really in response because you did this in parallel that you'll get into, but there was a really deep New York magazine article recently that I think all of us read or at least saw people talking about. Everyone is cheating their way through college. And some of the anecdotes in there are just insane, like people going to college and university or whatever and basically becoming completely reliant on ChatGPT and sort of just breezing their way through education and not really learning anything. I'm sort of summarising, obviously at a super high level, but that's basically what the takeaway was. In parallel, or I guess before Jason, you had done a bunch of public records requests like foyers, but to state and local agencies. What were the requests for and who did you file them with?
- [30:37]
Jason Kebler
Yeah, I actually filed these back in December 2022. What? Yeah, they're really, really old.
- [30:47]
Joseph
I thought you guys say 2024. Jesus. Okay.
- [30:49]
Jason Kebler
No, I filed them a really long time ago. And the reason that I filed them was ChatGPT came out in November 2022. And soon after that there was a scandal, I believe, in Florida, where it was like, students cheat on essay question by using ChatGPT. And it became like it became national news. This became national news that like a couple students used ChatGPT to write an essay. And so at the time I was like, oh, what are school districts? Like, how are they thinking about this? How are they teaching their teachers to think about this? So I filed 50, I felt like 65 public records requests. They were all identical. I filed with every single state. Every single. And then I filed with New York City, Los Angeles Unified School District, like a few in Maryland, because that's where I grew up. So I was curious what they were up to and just in like other school, like local school districts to see if they had anything mentioning ChatGPT, which is really funny because just the way that public records work, as we talked before is like, it took in some cases years to get answers back. And so what I got are documents from, like, January, February, March of 2023. And so it captured, like, the. The ways that schools were thinking about this in the earliest days of ChatGPT. So, like, for example, the entire state, like the. The California Board of Education had not heard of it. Like, that was their official.
- [32:31]
Joseph
At that point in time. Yeah.
- [32:33]
Jason Kebler
But this, we're talking, like, March 2023, which was after a series of, like, news cycles where it was like, millions of people have downloaded ChatGPT. Like, it was pretty hyped, if you recall.
- [32:46]
Joseph
Yeah. The biggest app launch ever. Yeah.
- [32:49]
Jason Kebler
And they were like, it wasn't that they didn't have any documents about it. It's that the documents they did have were people saying, like, there were. There were media requests being like, what is your policy on ChatGPT? Like, what do you think? And they're like, we actually don't know what that is. We have no policy, and we're not thinking about making a policy because we've never heard of it before. Whereas other states, like New York State, for example, had brought in some. Like, they had put together some presentations for professional development for teachers, like, here's what you need to know about AI in the classroom, so on and so forth. Very interestingly, New York City banned ChatGPT almost immediately. And then they brought in this group called Project Recess, which is like a nonprofit that is a Google partner. It's like a. It's kind of unclear exactly what they do, but they have funding from Google and they came in and they were like, chatgpt and AI is actually good. Here's how you can use it in your classroom, and here's how to get it unbanned. Here's how to put in a formal request asking for it to be unbanned in your classroom, which is kind of wild.
- [34:08]
Joseph
Yeah. So again, it's really, really early on or relatively early on, and some haven't heard of it. But already then there's like, the pro AI crowd going to these schools, it sounds like all these institutions or whatever, and basically singing the praises for AI. Do you think? Well, I mean, do you have any sense of how the schools then reacted to that? Is that in the documents? Did they go, oh, okay, sure, whatever. Or, you know what I mean, what was their reaction to that?
- [34:39]
Jason Kebler
Yeah, I mean, it's really interesting because a lot of states Brought in consultants to be like, how should we think about this? And in those early days, you're not going to have, like, anti AI consultants. Like, that's just not how this works, really. Like, there has to be a thing before there's a backlash to the thing. And so there was this presentation called ChatGPT and AI in Education that was given by three different consultants to, I believe it was Mississippi, where each of those people who made this presentation have since written books about how teachers can use AI and teach people, teach students how to use AI in the classroom. And it had a slide that said, like, warning, going back to writing essays only in class can hurt struggling learners and doesn't get our kids ready for their future. It had a slide called it's time to rethink, quote, plagiarism and cheating. And then it talked about, like, the new engineer is the prompt engineer and things like that. And so I think that generative AI and ChatGPT in general have, like, forgive me, but disrupted society to a point where it's impossible to ask teachers and school districts to be like, oh, why didn't you stop this? Why don't you nip this in the bud and tell your students not to use it? They were going to use it regardless. I don't think that there was any way to prevent this from happening. But at the same time, it's very clear from these documents that very, very, very few schools were thinking proactively about how disruptive this technology was going to be. And that's why I wanted to write this story in the first place. So the reason that it took me, like, why I didn't publish it before was because, frankly, like, I was busy. There were thousands of pages of documents, and they came back, like, slowly over many years because they just took a long time. And then I saw the New York Mag article and I was like, oh, I actually have all these documents. Like, let me go back through and, like, look at what was happening. Because the fact that AI is completely disrupting the school experience for both teachers and students is a huge, huge, huge deal at this point. And so I was curious, what did the early days of this look like? And it did not look very good.
- [37:21]
Joseph
Yeah, it's definitely instructive and shows us how we got here. Where, I don't know. There was that anecdote the other day where a teacher, I believe, at university enforced handwritten essays in class. So people can't use ChatGPT because you're literally not doing it on a laptop or a computer. And you're doing it in the class right there. And then some students were saying, you're discriminating against my learning style. Like as if using ChatGPT is the same as being a visual learner or something. And then maybe I've just said something really, really bigoted. I'm going to regret it now in like a few years or a few months or something. But that's a wild thing to say that my learning style is using AI. I don't know, man. Just sounds like you're not learning.
- [38:06]
Emmanuel Mayberg
I think to try and save Joe from cancellation, there was like thank you.
- [38:10]
Joseph
I appreciate that.
- [38:11]
Emmanuel Mayberg
There's. There are many reasons why students would want to speak their answers to teachers or like type them instead of doing them by hand. There's like motor skill issues that like are legitimate issues. But I believe the students had some other like, he formulated questions in a particular way so ChatGPT would not be able to answer them. And they said that that interfered with their learning style, which is different than having some sort of like learning disability.
- [38:44]
Joseph
Yeah, totally. And again, I suppose this wouldn't really be clear in the documents, Jason, from just themselves because they're a very point in time, but when you combine that with what Emmanuel was just saying and the New York Mag article and it feels like a different article comes out every week or so about the same thing. Are we cooked when it comes to education? Is this it?
- [39:08]
Jason Kebler
Well, so I also wrote this article because I wanted teachers to hit me up and say their current experiences with it. So there'll be a follow up article probably next week about this. And I would say that the responses I'm getting, I expected them to be bad. I expected the situation to be bad. I didn't expect some of the anecdotes that I have heard, which I, I guess I'll just leave it at that. But I, I think we're pretty cooked. I think it's pretty scary. I think it's probably a hollowing of the middle, probably where it's like students who are sort of at the top end of their classes will probably still read books and learn how to write and will like reject AI to some extent. Whereas a lot of the people in the middle who are like just barely getting by in the past, but we're still learning things are going to like start farming out a lot of their work to ChatGPT and, or other tools. And what I've heard from teachers is like the, the tools to, to catch students doing this. It's like one, it's kind of a losing game because what, you're gonna, like, fail every single one of your students. It's like, the teacher. The parents aren't going to allow that. Like, I'm not a parent. I'm gonna paint with a super broad brush right now and get myself canceled. But it's like, parents don't let teachers fail their kids anymore. It's like, they will, like, go Karen on their asses, like, as is what I've heard. And it's like, students have their phones in class. There's, like, been a huge fight about, you know, getting kids to pay any attention at all in class because they have their phones, because they're on social media all the time, blah, blah, blah. And it's just like, I don't know. I'm gonna sound like I'm 10,000 years old right now, but it's like. It seems extraordinarily bleak to me where it's like a mix of phones, social media, TikTok AI like, fighting like. Like, the crumb of attention span that kids have left is like, teachers are sort of fighting for that crumb of attention span, and it's just, like, not going super well. I'm gonna pull one anecdote. The scariest anecdote is that a Spanish teacher in high school hit me up, and she was like, I can't teach these kids Spanish because they don't know the words in English that I need to teach them. They're like, they do not even know the words in English of Spanish 1. When I'm like, libro means book. I mean, they probably know the word book, but, like, there's a lot of words that they're like, this is what. This is how you say this. And here's what it means in Eng English. And she's like, they don't even know. They don't even know the English words. And it's like, v. Scary. Sorry, Emmanuel.
- [42:09]
Emmanuel Mayberg
Yeah, you need to start with more foundational concepts, like fortnite dances kind of build from there to, like, spoken language. No, I was gonna say that. Like, I generally agree that you're just gonna see, like, an acceleration of, like, half and half knots, probably like the hollowing out of the middle, as you say. But I'm starting to. My son is very young. He's, like, not even two years old. But we're starting to have conversations about schools, and I'm talking to parents. And what surprised me is that I think it's just, like, a way more varied, dynamic environment than when we were growing up. Like, there were different types of schools, but now there's like so many different types of schools and so many different ideas of what is correct. Schooling, which ranges all the way from super test score focused and preparing for college and just maxing out your stats. And then there's a totally opposite no homework, no sitting down at your desk. You make up your own classes and your own goals and there's no grades. And like parents are really concerned about like I don't want my kid to be sitting down all day. And I didn't even know that was like an idea that existed and was popular. But it is. And there's a whole bunch of stuff that exists in between those two extremes. And it's like tbd, what is best for kids. We don't know. Like it's, it's all changing really fast and I think it will be bad. I don't know. But it will certainly be very, very, very different than what we were familiar with.
- [43:50]
Joseph
Yeah, I'm sure you just made a bunch of really good points, but I was playing Subway Surfer, so, you know, no idea what you're going on about. Okay, we'll leave that there. If you're listening to the free version of the podcast, I'll now play us out. But if you are a paying four or four me subscriber, we're going to talk about AI and Star wars, funnily enough, and well, sort of the studio link to it. This will be fun. You can subscribe and gain access to that content at 404 Media co. As a reminder, 404 Media is journalist founded and supported by subscribers. If you do wish to subscribe to 404 Media and directly support our work, please go to 404 Media co. You'll get unlimited access to our articles and an ad free version of this podcast. You also get to listen to the subscribers only section where we talk about a bonus story each week. This podcast is made in partnership with Kaleidoscope. Another way to support us is by leaving a five star rating and review for the podcast. That stuff really helps us out. Here is one of those From Arm Twisted. 404 Media is consistently one of the best sources for deeply reported reality based journalism on tech, including AI. The podcast provides deeper and very engaging discussions of a selection of stories each episode and a fantastic way to stay up to date. Thank you so much. Sorry if I read the same review twice. I'm trying to keep track of all of them. This has been 404 Media. We'll see you again next week.