Boo-sters

Summary

The 404 Media Podcast: "Boo-sters" (May 20, 2026)

Overview

In this episode titled "Boo-sters," the 404 Media team—Joseph, Sam Cole, Jason Kebler, and Alyssa Midcalf—explore two major stories shaking up the intersection of technology, privacy, and culture. First, they delve deep into a wave of student backlash at university commencements against pro-AI speeches, examining what the widespread booing says about anxiety towards automation and the job market. Second, they unpack a uniquely disturbing example of “Internet of Shit”: an AI-powered stool analysis app selling its users’ intimate data—including poop images—for ML training. Both topics highlight 404 Media’s knack for revealing tech’s hidden undercurrents and public sentiment.

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Part 1: Commencement Chaos—Students Boo Pro-AI Speakers

[01:21] Key Segment: Viral “AI is the Next Industrial Revolution” Booing Incident

Discussion Summary:

• The podcast opens with news about students booing University of Central Florida’s commencement speaker, Gloria Caulfield, after she called AI “the next Industrial Revolution.”
• The group reflects on how out-of-touch commencement speeches have come to feel, especially from corporate or private equity backgrounds distant from students’ lived experience.

Notable Quotes:

• [01:43] Jason Kebler: “The rise of Artificial intelligence is the next Industrial Revolution.” (playing the viral clip)
• [03:16] Jason Kebler: “You almost feel bad for her because she’s so off the mark as far as what these graduates want to hear, need to hear during this graduation.”

Insights & Reactions:

• The panel notes that this particular audience—arts and humanities grads—are especially wary of AI’s negative impact on their job prospects.
• Jason connects Gloria Caulfield’s presence to university politics and partnerships, suggesting her speech was a sort of quid pro quo rather than a choice designed to inspire students [03:55].

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[04:51] Why Were Humanities Students So Incensed?

Discussion Points:

• Humanities and social science students—those most likely to have their jobs automated or devalued—are especially sensitive to the AI hype.
• Recent layoffs and hiring freezes in knowledge industries: Meta, Microsoft, Pinterest, etc., all cite AI as a layoff catalyst, stoking fear.

Notable Quotes:

• [05:19] Jason Kebler: “It’s not actually creating any kind of great productivity boost. It’s just muddying the waters for people like archivists and historians… The job market that they’re entering into is just really bleak. And a lot of it is AI related or being said that it’s AI related, whether or not it is. But yeah, it’s just like: read the room is kind of the message.”

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[07:54] Journalism and Entry-Level Jobs Squeezed

Insights:

• AI is replacing work traditionally done by interns and entry-level journalists, gutting pathways for new grads.
• Not only layoffs, but roles are being erased altogether before they’re even posted.

Notable Quotes:

• [07:54] Sam Cole: “In journalism, which is all we can really speak to, it has really hollowed out the entry level market in a big way… The entry level stuff is going away first.”
• [08:49] Sam Cole: “A lot of job openings have been closed. So like, prospective jobs that no one could get—they’re just not… Companies aren't hiring for those roles.”

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Part 2: Other Examples of AI Booing

[09:41] Viral Compilation: Eric Schmidt and Others Get Booed

[09:41] Key Segments

• Eric Schmidt (former Google CEO) also booed in viral ASU commencement speech for praising AI.
• Scott Borchetta (CEO, Big Machine Records) told students to “deal with it”—got booed at Middle Tennessee State.
• Contrasting example: Magic Johnson at Stillman College, who offered a more nuanced, cautionary take on AI without provoking backlash.

Timestamps & Quotes:

• [10:07]-[10:59] Sam Cole/Joseph: (playing Eric Schmidt’s speech) “When someone offers you a seat on the rocket ship, you do not ask which seat, you just get on. The rocket ship is here.”
• [11:51] Jason Kebler: “I think Eric Schmidt is also used to being booed.”

Analysis:

• Speeches framing AI as an unstoppable force draw student ire, especially without acknowledgement of their real concerns.
• The “booster” attitude—pronounced AI evangelism—feels dismissive to soon-to-be grads. “They just need to deal with it,” speakers imply, deepening resentment.
• [16:48] Sam Cole recalls college traditions of non-deference to unwanted speakers; predicts admin pushback or possible consequences for student dissent.

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Part 3: Magic Johnson and The Power of Framing [16:48]

Contrast:

• Magic Johnson’s speech recognized AI as a threat but encouraged students to understand it as a factor in the job market—not as inevitable doom or utopian promise.
• [17:47] Sam Cole: “If you are just a booster who is like here trying to replace workers, or you're like a tech billionaire, Schmidt vibes like you're going to get booed, but if you are, like, acknowledging that it exists, that doesn't mean it's a third rail topic.”

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Part 4: Poop Check—The Internet of Shit’s Data Dilemma

[25:14] Segment Begins: “Internet of Shit—AI Poop Analysis App Offered to Sell Me Database of Its Users’ Poops”

[25:30] Discovery & Investigation

• Story originated from a Reddit “Data Hoarder Exchange” post offering 150,000 stool images from an app for sale as possible AI training data.

How the App Works:

• Poop Check: Users upload photos of bowel movements, paired with extensive demographic, dietary, and health data.
• App provides AI-powered “analyses” (consistency, presence of mucus or blood, shape via Bristol scale), also aggregates data for user discussion.
• Community aspect: “Poop leaderboard” and comment boards for users seeking advice on health symptoms—often leading to questionable self-diagnoses or dubious suggestions like ivermectin.

Quotes & Highlights:

• [27:06] Sam Cole: “He thought that this could be training data for an LLM essentially, and possibly not wrong. Like, I believe there's probably not that many databases of this sort out there…”
• [33:09] Sam Cole: “There's a poop leaderboard as well. If you participate in this community, you get points for uploading, you get points for commenting…”

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[35:21] Trying To Buy the Data

• Jason interacts with the developer, posing as an interested buyer for “AI and machine learning” research.
• Prices: $3,000 for 10,000 unreviewed images; $4,000 for 5,000 reviewed and annotated.
• Receives a sample with full metadata: user profiles, dietary info, health survey answers, AI-derived attributes (e.g., “confidence score” of whether the poop floats).

Notable Quotes:

• [35:39] Sam Cole: “I wanted to see, like, is he just going to send it to anyone? Is there any sort of guardrail here? …He was like, yeah, I'll send you a sample. Here's my pricing options.”
• [37:11] Sam Cole: “In the sample, there was data from four users… and then the associate JSON file… like their age, their weight… and it had the AI analysis of all that.”

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[39:12] Privacy, Fine Print & Shady Data Economy

• Poop Check’s privacy promise is contradicted by tiny-font legalese granting the company irrevocable rights to use and sell uploads—including for training and selling AI models.
• The App Store claims the app collects “no data,” but the service agreement reveals comprehensive data licensing.
• Even if users delete their accounts, images and information may remain “irreversibly incorporated into AI models.”

Notable Quotes:

• [41:20] Sam Cole (reading the T&C): “...you grant Soft All Things LLC a worldwide, irrevocable, perpetual, unconditional, royalty free, fully paid, transferable, sub licensable license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, distribute, sell, license and create derivative works from such content for any lawful purpose.”
• [42:38] Sam Cole: “I think there's a bunch of selling we don't know [about]. ...It's a weird and kind of gross example of a practice that happens all the time.”

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Memorable Moments & Tone

• The episode is laced with irreverence and dark humor, particularly as the panel fights off poop puns and expresses incredulity at the implications of both stories.
• [34:22] Joseph: “Yes. So they're doing all of that and I'm really, really resisting the urge to make poop puns. I'm not going to do it.”
• The show offers frank, jargon-free explanations of both the high-level issues and the weird corners of digital culture.

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Takeaways

• Across commencements, students signal a new skepticism toward uncritical AI hype—especially when coming from business leaders tone-deaf to graduates’ economic anxieties.
• The Poop Check saga is symbolic of lurking issues at the intersection of health tech, privacy, and the enormous, often unregulated, trading of intimate user data for AI development.
• 404 Media underscores how high-level abstractions (e.g., “AI revolution”) and ground-level consequences (job losses, privacy risks) are deeply intertwined—and that audience pushback, transparency, and regulation matter more than ever.

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Key Timestamps

• 01:21 – Introduction and play of viral commencement speaker booing
• 03:55 – Jason explains likely university-PE connection
• 05:19 – Why humanities grads especially fear AI disruption
• 07:54 – Entry-level jobs in journalism and tech being replaced by AI
• 09:41 – Audio of booing Eric Schmidt at ASU
• 11:51 – How “booster” AI speeches miss the mark with students
• 16:48 – College administrator/freedom of speech reflections
• 17:47 – Magic Johnson’s nuanced take on AI (not booed)
• 25:14 – Introduction to Poop Check, origins on Reddit
• 33:09 – Inside the Poop Check app and community
• 35:21 – Jason tries to buy the poop image dataset
• 39:12 – The app’s privacy failures and legal sleight-of-hand
• 41:20 – T&Cs grant developer full rights over user data, forever
• 42:38 – Summary on the underground market for weird datasets

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For Listeners Who Haven’t Tuned In

This episode is a must-listen for anyone curious about the real, messy consequences of technological disruption—from the future of post-grad employment and generational anxieties to the shadow economy of personal data fueling the AI boom. With their trademark mix of wit, wonkiness, and world-weary skepticism, the 404 Media team connects the viral moments to the structural issues, making the digital present both accessible and urgent.

Transcript

[Sam Cole]

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[Jason Kebler]

The rise of Artificial Intelligence is the Next Industrial Revolution.

[Sam Cole]

Okay.

[Joseph]

Hello and welcome to the 404 Media podcast where we bring you unparalleled access to hidden worlds, both online and IRL. 404 Media is a journalist founded company and needs your support. To subscribe, go to 404 Media Co as well as bonus content every single week. Subscribers also get access to additional episodes where we respond to the best comments. Gain access to that content@404Media co. I'm your host, Joseph, and with me are 404Media co founders Sam Cole.

[Jason Kebler]

Hey.

[Joseph]

And Jason Kebler.

[Sam Cole]

Hello. Hello.

[Joseph]

All right, let's get into it. The first one here, the headline is students boo Commencement speaker after she calls AI the quote, next Industrial Revolution. What we'll actually do before we talk about it, let's just play the audio first. Of this particular speaker.

[Jason Kebler]

The rise of Artificial intelligence is the next Industrial Revolution.

[Sam Cole]

Oh, What happened?

[Jason Kebler]

Okay, I struck a chord. May I finish? Only a few years ago, AI was not a factor in our lives. A lot of booing today. A lot of clips of people booing, students booing. Yeah, that clip was obviously, it's pretty uncomfortable to watch. I'm sure she was very uncomfortable in the moment, but it's, you know, like thousands of graduates from University of Central Florida's College of Arts and Humanities and the Nicholson School of Communication and Media, who are graduating on May 8. And the commencement speaker was Gloria Caulfield, and she is the Vice president of Strategic Alliances at Tavistock Group. Why she was booked for this particular commencement, I have no idea. Feels like a setup from the organizers. You almost feel bad for her because she's so off the mark as far as what these graduates want to hear, need to hear during this graduation. So she, she's. She's coming from, like, a private equity sort of background.

[Sam Cole]

Sometimes it's someone who's, like, connected to the college in some way. Like they are an alum or they are. Sometimes they're like a famous person who the school is giving them like an honorary doctorate or something like that. As far As I know this person is not connected to the school. The one at my school is, like, extremely stupid as well. Like, sometimes it's just a rando and it's unclear why. And yes, in this case, they chose, like, a private equity person on the

[Jason Kebler]

point of it being, like, people being connected, like, ostensibly to the school. The group, Tavistock Group that Gloria works for, part of her job description is she oversees the health and medical partnerships and business development for Tavistock's visionary Lake Nona community. And Lake Nona is a planned community in Florida, and Lake Nona has a partnership with ucf. And that's where the university's health and sciences campus is. So I assume probably what happened. And again, we don't know for sure, but UCF was like, we gotta give this in exchange for helping us set up the health and sciences campus on visionary like Nona, we're going to give the person who helped make that happen a slot in a commencement speech. And, you know, unfortunately for her, the slot was the College of Arts and Humanities. So that's maybe the connection. We don't really know for sure.

[Joseph]

Yeah. Well, that actually leads to my next question, which is that, I mean, all sorts of students may boo AI, you know, like, it's definitely not a universal position, obviously, but as we're going to see, there's several clips where this has happened recently. Commencement speeches. But the fact that these were humanities students specifically. Can you just talk about that for a second? What were these people studying, as far as we know, and how does that relate to AI?

[Jason Kebler]

Yeah, I mean, we're talking about students who've spent the last several years of their lives studying library sciences and all of the sorts of history and things like that. And it's the jobs and the sectors that we've documented pretty thoroughly, especially with libraries and research and social sciences and things like that, where AI is coming in and just making people's jobs way harder. It's not actually creating any kind of great productivity boost. It's just muddying the waters. For people like archivists and historians, researchers who are trying to get papers published. The peer review process is just bogged down incredibly by AI generated slope. And at the same time, you have people like Alex Karp, who's the CEO of Palantir, outright saying that AI will destroy humanity's jobs. It's like the people developing AI are saying it will destroy your job. And we then see the CEOs and the executives at these companies blaming AI very publicly for things like layoffs, like Meta announced that it was laying off 10% of its workforce this month. Pinterest, Dao, Microsoft, all these companies that are very visibly and publicly and vocally blaming AI. Whether or not that's true or not, whether or not AI is to blame for these layoffs, they're saying, hey, AI is doing this to the jobs that you used to have or the jobs that you're entering into, like the job market that you hope to have as a graduate. And people see that and people aren't, you know, like dumb people are paying attention to the news, paying attention to how AI is being talked about and how people are experiencing AI in their fields. And that's who she's talking to, is people who are trying to get a job right after college. You know, they spent a bunch of money on this degree, they got a bunch of loans and the market that they're entering into is just really bleak. And a lot of it is AI related or being said that it's AI related whether or not it is. But yeah, it's just like read the room is kind of the message.

[Joseph]

Yeah, and you're right about sort of there's almost a difference between the actual impact of AI on jobs and then what is being said about it. But at the end of the day, these are people who are about to enter the workforce, hopefully in some form. And even if they are just saying it and it turns out maybe they're going to be okay, like you're still saying it. And this is going to be the obvious reaction to is something that we've

[Sam Cole]

talked about so much, how AI is going to impact jobs or how it's already impacting jobs. We've talked a little bit less about how it is affecting or going to affect new graduates and also the types of things that they study. And I don't know, maybe it won't impact. We talk a lot about how it's changing school and all that, but I think that in journalism, which is all we can really speak to, it has really hollowed out the entry level market in a big way. Like a lot of the stuff that is being automated is stuff that previously either interns would do or entry level people would do, where you just sort of like have someone come into a job and you teach them on the job by having them do like, and it's not always easy stuff, but you start, you start them out with stuff that is like pretty straightforward and that is the type of thing that AI is pretty good at or is getting better at. And I think that's what's happening with coding. It's what's happening with a lot of jobs where, like, the entry level stuff is going away first. And also there are a lot of layoffs or there's been a lot of layoffs. But something else that's been happening is a lot of job openings have been closed. So, like, prospective jobs that know one could get. They're just not. Hi. Like, companies aren't hiring for those roles. They're closing those roles. And so I think it is very scary time right now to be graduating into this job market. And I'm sure that these students know that. And as Sam said, they just spent like a shitload of money. Spent four years studying. And yeah, then they're. Then they're going into this, like, very uncertain space.

[Joseph]

Yeah. To have someone from private equity then tell you this is the next industrial revolution. But there was another clip that we didn't write an article about, but Evie, our social media manager, she cut it up and pull it straight online. It was a really, really. Another good example. The sort of text that went with that, almost the headline is former Google CEO Eric Schmidt booed for praising AI in commencement speech. Let's just play that as well.

[Sam Cole]

Architects of artificial intelligence.

[Joseph]

Interesting.

[Sam Cole]

You will help shape artificial intelligence.

[Joseph]

We do not know.

[Sam Cole]

We do not know the precise contours.

[Joseph]

If you'd let me make this point, please.

[Sam Cole]

If you don't care about science, that's okay, because AI is going to touch everything else as well. Whatever path you choose, AI will become part of how work is done. You can now assemble a team of AI agents to help you with the parts that you could never accomplish on your own. When someone offers you a seat on the rocket ship, you do not ask which seat, you just get on the rocket ship is here.

[Joseph]

Let me give you some advice.

[Sam Cole]

First, find a way to say yes.

[Joseph]

Listen, you ran the judgment, Sam, so could you tell us where this was and when you listened to it before, did any differences jump out at you about this clip or is it very similar to the other one? Like what. What do you. Is it more of the same?

[Alyssa Midcalf]

Or.

[Jason Kebler]

I mean, so it's Eric Schmidt, who is probably way more used to being in front of a big audience than Gloria Caulfield. So his reaction, her reaction is immediately she turns away. She's like, oh, I don't know what to do. He just. Maybe also because that clip of Gloria going viral, everyone's seen it. So maybe speakers are getting used to being booed now.

[Joseph]

I think Eric Schmidt is also used to being booed he's being used to

[Jason Kebler]

being booed for sure. So he just keeps talking, like he leans into it. What he's talking about is, you know, he's kind of addressing like preempting the booing. He's like, there's a fear in your generation. The future's already been written, the machines are coming. Which starts to feel like, okay, he. Like someone's saying, someone's acknowledging that there is something is going on here. Like, obviously people are angry, people are scared. And he says, I understand that fear. And then he goes on to say that the future is unwritten and that the graduating class of 2026 has power to shape how AI develops, which people boo again. Because if you notice in these clips, and there are several others that we'll get to, but even when they're trying to kind of sell this, you still have control over your future. You still have the ability to say how you want AI to exist in your lives. AI will exist in your life, and it is inevitable and it is a given. And no matter what you do, you're going to have to figure out how to cope with AI in your life. And that's what the audiences boo again. They boo. They boo. To begin with, It's. It's definitely he's. Again, he's. He pushes through it and so did Gloria. But I do also wonder if getting booed, I mean, thank God graduation season's almost over, but if getting booed at a commencement speech is going to become a thing that people want to do, that they try to do. If you're like an AI executive or if you're a PE person and you come in and you get booed at this massive. Eric said, asu. I don't know if we said this already. Asu, which recently launched ASU Atomic, which I wrote about, which is stealing lecturers work and chopping it up into AI slop. But he's speaking at this huge, huge, huge university and so are the others. And it goes mega viral and it's massively viral online. And then what you're saying reaches the boosters who are on your team and they are like, yeah, he's. They're not ready for what he's saying.

[Joseph]

Sorry. And also, just to clarify, when you say boosters, you mean people who are boosting something, not people who are boo. Boosters.

[Jason Kebler]

Yeah, boosters. Like boosting.

[Joseph]

It sounded like she was saying the boosters.

[Sam Cole]

Really? That's not a thing. That's.

[Joseph]

Dude, I'm not even making the pun. I'm clarifying. It for the listener. All right. But. Yes, that's what you mean.

[Jason Kebler]

Yeah. Yes.

[Joseph]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jason Kebler]

Like, people who are boosting AI and they're pro AI or pro whatever Eric Schmidt and Gloria are saying. And, you know, they don't. These kids today, they're not ready. They're not entering this. Like, they just need to deal with it. Which is what another speaker, Scott Borchetta, CEO, Big Machine Records, he spoke at Middle Tennessee State University, which is this much smaller school, obviously, but he started with AI, is rewriting production as we sit here. And then he goes on to say, deal with it. They start building him, and he says, deal with it.

[Joseph]

It's a tool.

[Jason Kebler]

There's a tool here for sure.

[Joseph]

Right, Right. Yeah, That's a good one. So, wait, I think. I think there was one more example just before I asked my last question.

[Sam Cole]

Yeah, well, well. So I was going to say, I remember again, I graduated college a long time ago, don't have the best of memory. So this is maybe useless to say, but I remember we had a weird person at my commencement speech who was talking like, he just was not super inspiring. And people were not booing, but they were not, like, sufficiently enthusiastic. And I remember someone from our college got on stage and they're like, give them a warmer welcome than that. Like, you can do better than that. And that's the thing is, I don't remember what it was, but I feel like around the Iraq war and other controversial things, there was a time where college students were booing or were just not sufficiently deferential to commencement speakers. And college administrators got really pissed about this. And then commencement speakers were like, well, I'm not going to talk if they're not going to cheer for me, and that sort of thing. So I do wonder if there will be consequences for the person who shouted AI sucks, or for, like, people who boo because colleges are not, they should be, free speech zones. This is like a debate that's been happening, like, over and over and over for many years at this point. But, like, college administrators really don't like embarrassing people that they've invited to speak

[Jason Kebler]

and paid all the money to speak.

[Sam Cole]

Exactly. And so I do wonder if there. If there's going to be some sort of freak out here. Yeah. I added one more to the podcast document here where Magic Johnson, the famous basketball player who also is, like, involved with the Lakers, still, he gave a commencement speech at Stillman College, which is a historically black college university. I'm not sure exactly where it is, but this was also last week, and he talked about AI and what he said was something to the effect of, like, you know, it's gonna be. It's a scary time to be graduating to this. Like, AI is you. You should, like, know how AI works because it is a threat and you need to know that it's a threat. And he didn't get booed. Like, he gave like a nuanced take and it was like, well received. And I think that's important to note just because it's like, well, if you are just a booster who is like here trying to replace workers, or you're like a tech billionaire, Schmidt vibes like you're going to get booed, but if you are, like, acknowledging that it exists, that doesn't mean it's a third rail topic.

[Joseph]

Yeah, that's totally fair. Sam. The last thing I was just going to ask is that there was sort of this other viral video recently, I think, during a graduation ceremony where the camera pivoted to the crowd and have you seen this? There was a student and he had his laptop open and he was scrolling through ChatGPT. Jason, did you see that?

[Jason Kebler]

Oh, my God, Are you serious?

[Sam Cole]

Yeah, so no, I didn't see it.

[Joseph]

So basically, yeah, yeah. So the camera pivots away from the stage to the audience. A graduate presumably, holds up his laptop and is just like smiling and grinning and scrolling through all of his ChatGPT history, which I think the implication is that was using ChatGPT to graduate here in some capacity. And the only reason I bring it up is that while all of this booing is happening and these commencement speeches are happening, AI is across all of these campuses, like, in some way, like you mentioned, Sam, the stuff you covered, how he was regurgitating lectures and spitting it out that way. Students all over are using ChatGPT and it just sucks all around that they're going to go into a market where the job prospects are, frankly lower. Even if it's not because of AI, it's because companies, as you say, Jason, are not giving entry level jobs and that sort of thing. And then presumably because of the pressure that's getting to people to try to get these jobs, maybe they actually have to turn to these tools as well, or they feel like they have to turn to these tools as well. So it's just a fucking mess all around. All right, we'll leave that there. When we come back. We're going to be talking about, I mean, literally the Internet of shit, basically in a whole new way. We'll be right back after this.

[Sam Cole]

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[Alyssa Midcalf]

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[Sam Cole]

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[Joseph]

All right, and we are back. This is one that Jason wrote. The headline is Internet of Shit. AI Poop analysis app offered to sell me database of its users Poops. That's. That's a whole new sentence.

[Sam Cole]

This is something. This is something that I found on my travels on Reddit over the weekend a few weeks ago. And it was on the subreddit called DH Exchange, which is Data Hoarder exchange. And so it's a place where people who have large databases of things share them with each other. And the title of the post is I hoarded a large database of something valuable, just not what you expect. 150,000 stool images. And basically it is a post from a person who said that they launched an app a few years ago where they have been using machine learning and like user reported data from within the app to collect images of poop from smartphone and that he's been hoarding all of these images for years at this point. And he has 150,000 of them from, he says, roughly 25,000 different people. And then he says, feels like I'm sitting on a pile of coins but can't find who wants them. Basically he's like, I think that this should be worth money. I don't know what to do with them. I'm trying to sell it and if you want to buy it, hit me up.

[Alyssa Midcalf]

Yeah.

[Joseph]

So just two questions first. And I mean you get the answer to this later. But I guess hypothetically at this point, why does he think this might be worth something? Like to an AI company? Like, oh, this is quite an unusual set of images. Like, what's the potential value?

[Sam Cole]

Yeah, I mean, that's the implication. And that then became very clear once I started talking to him, is that he thought that this could be trained. Training data for an LLM essentially, and possibly not wrong. Like, I believe there's probably not that many databases of this sort out there because it's just like not something that people are regularly uploading to the Internet, especially not in the way that, that ultimately this was collected, which we can talk about in a second. Yeah, but you know, there, there is tons and tons of discussion over the last few years and a few promising studies and applications and then like some not so promising studies and applications of AI being used for health reasons. The ones that are like, most often cited are like, AI can be used to spot cancer or read like CAT scans or X rays more accurately than humans or like earlier than humans. And there's been a ton of hype around that recently. There's been some studies showing like, that LLMs especially have the same issues with health data that they have with everything else, where they can start hallucinating things, they can like have false positives, this sort of thing. But, you know, one could imagine wanting to train on human poop and sort of use it for like a health related reason. And that's sort of like the implication here.

[Joseph]

Sure. So as far as I know, this post doesn't mention the app specifically. So how do you go about looking into this? Like, what's your next step?

[Sam Cole]

Yeah, so I messaged him on Reddit and I was like, I'm interested in this database. Can you share any more information about what you're looking for? And then I said details about the app, where it was collected, and they responded very quickly and said, the app's called Poop Check if you want to see it. And then also, yeah, Poop Check. And also said, let's switch to email. And so I mean, at first I was like, okay, like, it's a weird thing to make up and lie about, but people lie about stuff on the Internet all the time. And so how do I know that it comes from this app? Like, I have no idea. This is just like a random Redditor. So I looked at the app, but then notably, it's like the email address that he gave me was associated with this company called Soft All Things, which is the name of the developer of this app. And they have like an extensive web presence for Poop Check. It is the same email address that's associated with the App Store on Apple App Store. And so I was like, okay, like it is from this app. You know, I sort of did some, some additional clicking around and it's like, okay, this all checks out well.

[Joseph]

So what does that app do? What is Poop Check?

[Sam Cole]

Yeah, great question, great question. So it is a free app called Poop Check and it basically purports to be an AI analysis tool of your poop. And so you start an account and you take photos of your shit and it analyzes them. And you also create like a profile. And in this profile you say, like, your height, your weight, your age, your sex. You also tell it some things about your diet, whether you drink coffee, whether you drink alcohol, whether you are a drug user, like, all these sorts of demographic information. And then the idea is that, like, you're supposed to take a picture of every bowel movement. And when you do that, it also asks you a bunch of questions about that and how that experience was for you on any given day. And so it asks you questions like, how much water have you had today? Like, when was the last time you ate? What did you eat? It also asks, like, how long was the duration of this session? It asks you if it was painful. Things like this. Things like this. And then you fill all that out, and then it uses image recognition to further analyze the picture that you upload. And then does do some of this, like, to be clear, or it seems like it does.

[Joseph]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sam Cole]

I mean, I think that it does because the things that it. It basically categorizes it further. And the things that it categorizes it is like, does it detect mucus in the poop? Does it detect blood? And then it analyzes, like, the shape and consistency of it. And then it categorizes it on this thing called the Bristol scale, which is a, like, health thing. Like, it is. It's an actual medical diagnosis that you certainly don't need an app to do for you. It's like, I think it's 1 out of 6 or 1 out of 7, and there's different categories of the shapes of SC stool. And it basically, like, tracks over time your bowel movements. And then finally, finally there is a community aspect to all of this where you can opt in. To its credit, it is opt in and they make it, like, pretty clear where basically there's a forum and you can upload information about your bowel movements to this forum, and it goes there with a photo of it, and then the community can talk about your shit. And there's a poop leaderboard as well. So if you, like, participate in this community, you get points for uploading, you get points for commenting, so on and so forth. And a lot of that community is full of people who think that they're sick. Basically, they're like, oh, this is not good. And then asking people to, like, comment, like, what disease do you think I have. And so a lot of them are like, well, you probably have like a tapeworm or you should probably take Ivermectin, which made a return here. Ivermectin, for those who don't remember, is a horse dewormer that I guess sometimes humans take it under medical supervision. It's like an anti parasite, but not for Covid. And it became like a popular thing for Covid. And it's like, well, you probably, like, need Ivermectin. And it's like, okay, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. So that's. That's poop check. That's the app.

[Joseph]

Yes. So they're doing all of that and I'm really, really resisting the urge to make poop puns. I'm not going to do it.

[Sam Cole]

I'm trying to stay very serious. This is, you know, this is an article about privacy and consent and health, et cetera. And we're being very serious.

[Joseph]

Okay, we are, we are. So I'll go to the next question, which is that the app is doing all of this and, like, it is already doing this AI or machine learning sort of powered analysis and that sort of thing. But then the app, judging by this post and your conversations, is turning around and is saying, well, there's some sort of secondary value to all of this data that we've collected or has been submitted by users, and now we're trying to find a way to monetize it. So what was next? You're talking to this developer, like, do they describe what the data is? Do they send samples? Like, what happens next?

[Sam Cole]

Yeah, so I email back and forth with him a handful of times. I used my real name and all of this. But when I first emailed him, I wasn't like, hey, I'm a journalist doing a story. I was like, hey, my name is Jason. I'm interested in this data set. Can I buy this data set from you?

[Joseph]

Because you want to see if you can buy it?

[Sam Cole]

Basically, yeah. I wanted to see, like, is he just going to send it to anyone? Like, is this. Is there any sort of guardrail here? And basically I ended up telling him that I wanted it for, like. I was like, for AI and machine learning. And also I'm doing an information project, which is an article in the end. And he was like, yeah, I'll send you a sample. Here's my pricing options. So the pricing options was for like 10,000 images. Unreviewed images, he said was $3,000, 5,000, fully human, reviewed and annotated on top of AI validation is $4,000. So basically it sounds like he had the AI analyze this, and then for this subset of the images, he either went through or had someone else go through and assess whether the AI did a good job. And that was $4,000. And then it was for 5,000 reviewed and 5,000 unreviewed. It was $5,000. And then he sent me a sample. And in the sample, there was data from four users, and it was like five stool images each. So it was like 20 images, definitely of shit. And then the associate JSON file. So JSON is like a database file, basically like a text database. And in each of it, it had information about the user, like their age, their weight. It had all the answers to their questions about, like, whether they had lactose intolerance, whether any given bowel movement was, like, painful, et cetera. And it had the AI analysis of all of that, which was just like, mucus, yes, slash, no color. It. It like guessed the color, whether it was floating, things like this. And then it had, like a confidence score that seemed to be out of one. So it was like zero to one. So, like, one of the examples was, like, floating, and it said the answer was sink. So I guess it sunk in the toilet. And then the confidence score was like 0.55. So it's like 55% sure. Is my. I think that's what it means. It's not that sure. It's not that sure.

[Joseph]

Good. Whoever is sunk or whether it's floating. Okay, so you do that, and then eventually you do say, look, I'm a journalist. I'm going to write about it. As far as I know, he didn't get back. Right.

[Sam Cole]

He didn't respond to my questions. Once I said I was a journalist and I'm writing an article, no response.

[Joseph]

Which is part of the reason why sometimes, again, we did it with buying the Chinese Deepfake software. It's like, you definitely don't do this all the time, but sometimes you have to, because that's the way you're going to be able to cover this story and actually see if a purchase is possible. Yeah, yeah.

[Sam Cole]

And I think it's like a sliding scale, and it's something that we talk about. It's like, how are we going to represent ourselves? Are we going to, like, how far are we going to go with this? Like, I could have bought this, but, like, what were we going to do with it? Like, we determined what it was from and that this was for sale and all of that. And also I didn't want to spend $3,000 on shit images.

[Joseph]

No, I was already feeling guilty about spending 2000 on Chinese deepfake software. We can't spend 3k on pictures of shit. Yeah, yeah.

[Sam Cole]

So I do want to talk about like what this says about privacy and just like the sale of data and all of that. Because the messaging to users on this is really weird. Like when you download an app from the App Store, they have a privacy policy in the App Store. And then the App Store also has this box that's like, what information does this app collect? Yeah, and on the App Store it says it collects no data, which is like obviously not true.

[Joseph]

And I think that's self reported. I think it's self reported.

[Sam Cole]

Yeah, but it's like if you were a privacy conscious person, like maybe you would look at that and then you click the associate privacy policy. And their privacy policy is basically like, we care very much about your private data. All your poop images are encrypted. And it says like you can delete your account at any time. And then if you go to their website, it says basically the same thing. But then when you sign up, like when you download the app and you open the app, you have to make an account and you don't have to click this link, but there is a link that says service agreement. And if you click the service agreement, it's totally different. And it says by uploading stool images or any health related data to the app, you grant Soft All Things LLC a worldwide, irrevocable, perpetual, unconditional, royalty free, fully paid, transferable, sub licensable license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, distribute, sell, license and create derivative works from such content for any lawful purpose. And then it goes on and on and it says, you acknowledge that your images and data may be used to create, train, improve and commercialize AI technologies and machine learning models. And that such models and any outputs derived from your data may be licensed or sold to third parties, including medical organizations, research institutions and commercial partners. Finally, it says you can ask to have it deleted, your data deleted, but that your data may be IRreversibly incorporated into AI models and aggregated data sets and that deleting your account just deletes your account on the app, but does not remove your poop images from the AI model. So it's basically like if you use this in any way, you're giving us full access to this, you're giving us a license, you're giving us like we can do anything we want with it. And in this case it's images of Your shit. But like, this is how it works. This is how like all of these apps work. This is how social media works. Like this is, this is the whole thing. Like this is the problem that in the fine print of some terms of service somewhere, if it says, you know, you're giving us this data and we can do whatever we want with it, then that's what happens with it.

[Joseph]

Yeah, yeah, totally. And then sort of the other thing it highlights, which sort of goes back to the beginning of this subreddit where people are buying and selling different data sets is this sort of shady underground economy of all of these left of field weird data sets that people may buy and they definitely try to sell. What do you think this shows us about that? That like, I don't know, people are just willing to sell anything or there's probably a bunch of selling going on that we don't know. Like, what's the deal there?

[Sam Cole]

I think there's a bunch of selling we don't know. I think there is probably a fair bit of like underground market for this sort of data. I don't think like a lot of it's going through like random Reddit posts and things like that, but like a lot of academic data and we've seen like papers about different, like weird things and a lot of that is coming through like somewhat surreptitiously collected data and things like that. So I think that there's a lot of this happening. We've seen, I don't know, like data brokers. Like the information can be shared like multiple times across different companies and things like that. So I think it is just like it's a. I mean, it's somewhat serious. Like I think that it's not cool that this is happening, but it's like a weird and kind of gross example of a practice that happens like all the time is my sort of perspective on it.

[Joseph]

Yeah, totally. That makes sense. All right, we'll leave that there. If you're listening to the free version of the podcast, I'll now play us out. But if you are a paying 404 media subscriber, we're going to talk about how researchers wanted to put cameras onto preschool teachers to train AI. That's one I wrote. It's really, really crazy. You can subscribe and gain access to that content at 404 Media co. As a reminder, 404 Media is journalist founded and supported by subscribers. If you do wish to subscribe to 404 Media and directly support our work, please go to 404 Media co. You'll get unlimited access to our articles and an ad free version of this podcast. You'll also get to listen to the Subscribers only section where we talk about a bonus story each week. This podcast is produced by Alyssa Midcalf. Another way to support us is by leaving a five star rating and review for the podcast. That stuff really does help us out. I'll go back in and collect some of them soon. To weed out, this has been 404 Media. We'll see you again next week.