The 404 Media Podcast: "Cops Are Using AI Bots to Surveil People"

Release Date: April 23, 2025
Host: 404 Media (Joseph, Sam, Emanuel, and Jason)

Introduction

In this episode of The 404 Media Podcast, the host Joseph and co-founders Sam Cole, Emmanuel Mayberg, and Jason Kebler delve into a concerning intersection of law enforcement and artificial intelligence. Titled "Cops Are Using AI Bots to Surveil People," the episode unpacks how police departments across the United States are deploying AI-powered bots to monitor and interact with potential suspects online. The discussion is rooted in investigative reporting on a company named Massive Blue, which has developed sophisticated tools for AI-driven surveillance.

Massive Blue and AI-Powered Surveillance

The core of the episode centers around Massive Blue, a technology firm that has created AI bots designed to engage with individuals online under various personas. These AI entities are used by police departments to gather intelligence on suspected criminal activities, ranging from human trafficking to coordinating protests.

Overview of Massive Blue's Tool:

Massive Blue's tool operates by scanning social media platforms to identify potential suspects based on predefined keywords and behavioral patterns. Once a potential target is identified, the system deploys an AI-generated persona tailored to engage the individual in conversation. These personas are meticulously crafted with detailed backstories and characteristics to appear authentic and relatable.

Emmanuel Mayberg [06:02]: "At its core, it is a company that monitors social media, identifies suspects of various crimes via its scanning of social media, and then critically creates these AI-generated Personas with specific purposes."

Examples of AI Personas:

1. Jason – The Child Trafficking Persona:

   • Background: 14 years old, from Los Angeles, with parents from Ecuador.
   • Interests: Anime, gaming, comic books, hiking.
   • Personality: Shy, self-conscious, difficulty interacting with peers.
   • Purpose: To engage individuals suspected of involvement in child trafficking by creating a believable interaction that can elicit incriminating information.

2. Heidi – The Radicalized Protester Persona:

   • Background: 36 years old, divorced, no children, from Texas.
   • Interests: Activism, community leadership, baking.
   • Personality: Body-positive, lonely, outspoken, seeking meaning.
   • Purpose: To infiltrate and monitor groups involved in organizing or participating in protests, potentially identifying organizers or agitators.

Engagement Process:

The AI personas interact with individuals on various platforms, including Instagram, Snapchat, WhatsApp, Telegram, Signal, Reddit, and 4chan. These interactions can range from casual conversations to more targeted inquiries aimed at extracting specific information relevant to ongoing investigations.

Jason Kebler [10:02]: "They can interact in a group setting, but they can also go one on one. So, a lot of the screenshots are like, you might start on Twitter and then join a Discord, and then continue that same Persona across different social media platforms."

Investigative Reporting and Data Acquisition

The 404 Media team embarked on this investigation by filing 67 Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) requests across Arizona and Texas, states known to be operational hubs for Massive Blue's deployments. This extensive data acquisition revealed internal communications and presentations that showcased the company's methods and the scale at which they operate.

Jason Kebler [10:51]: "I filed 67 Freedom of Public Records requests in Arizona and Texas because we knew that they were operating in Arizona."

Findings:

• High Volume of Identifications: According to Massive Blue's presentations, their tools identified 1,400 to 17,000 unique human traffickers in cities like Houston, Dallas, and Austin within a single day.

• Lack of Transparency and Effectiveness: Despite significant investments (e.g., a $360,000 grant from the Arizona Department of Public Safety), there have been zero arrests linked to the use of Massive Blue’s tools, raising questions about the accuracy and reliability of the identifications.

Jason Kebler [22:40]: "There’s a recon report that was put into this presentation which, again, these are numbers directly from Massive Blue. We have no idea sort of the effectiveness of this tool."

Quotes Highlighting Key Concerns:

Emmanuel Mayberg [12:41]: "Whether it works or not, people are paying for it. People who live for Arizona are paying for this kind of technology while the company refuses to tell the city council how it works and refuses to tell us how it works."

Sam Cole [26:53]: "We can always count on the cops to buy a new toy and use it stupidly. So hopefully they don't use it at all and they waste a bunch of money."

Effectiveness and Ethical Implications

The podcast hosts critically assess the effectiveness of Massive Blue’s AI surveillance tools. Despite the ambitious claims, experts and the investigative team express skepticism about the tool’s capability to accurately identify criminals, especially considering the high number of false positives and the absence of any resultant arrests.

Potential Risks:

• False Accusations: The sheer number of individuals flagged by the system could lead to unwarranted investigations, tarnishing reputations without cause.

• Targeting Vulnerable Populations: Personas are often crafted to resonate with specific demographics, such as people of color or immigrants, potentially perpetuating biases and reinforcing stereotypes.

• Legal and Ethical Boundaries: The use of AI in surveillance raises significant concerns about privacy, consent, and the potential for abuse in law enforcement practices.

Sam Cole [31:16]: "Trafficking is always kind of a red flag term because it gets a lot of things caught up in it that aren't really strictly trafficking."

Discussion on AI vs. Human Investigators:

The hosts debate whether AI can genuinely outperform human investigators in undercover operations. While AI can handle large-scale data processing, the nuanced understanding and ethical considerations required in law enforcement may be beyond current AI capabilities.

Emmanuel Mayberg [26:31]: "I would say it probably is not effective because it's just hard to imagine a chatbot being better at undercover work than a human investigator at this point."

Financial and Operational Concerns

The substantial financial investment in Massive Blue’s tools, paired with the lack of demonstrable results, raises red flags about the allocation of taxpayer money and the accountability of law enforcement agencies in adopting new technologies.

Joseph [22:01]: "360,000 is actually quite a lot for a software tool. Like, when you look at the stuff like Babel Street, all the other social media monitoring tools, sometimes that can be like 5k, 10k per user license."

Marketing and Public Perception

Massive Blue’s marketing strategies, including buzzwords like "cyberwall" and grandiose claims about the tool’s capabilities, further complicate public perception. The company’s association with high-profile figures and its ambitious expansion into unrelated technological domains (e.g., cryptocurrency) add layers of complexity and suspicion.

Jason Kebler [14:43]: "There's a lot of red flags here. I would say it’s, we can keep."

Conclusion and Implications for the Future

The episode concludes with a reflection on the broader implications of AI-driven surveillance in law enforcement. The potential for misuse, lack of transparency, and ethical dilemmas posed by such technologies underscore the need for stringent oversight and accountability. The 404 Media team emphasizes the importance of vigilance and informed public discourse as these tools become more prevalent.

Joseph [31:16]: "But clearly, we have to confront this reality and understand the impact it's having on our society."

Additional Stories: Saint Carlo Acutis

In a departure from the main topic, the podcast briefly touches on another story regarding Saint Carlo Acutis, a young Italian considered the first millennial saint. While not directly related to the primary discussion on AI surveillance, this segment explores the intersection of modern technology and traditional religious practices, highlighting how contemporary figures are being integrated into age-old institutions.

Sam Cole [36:34]: "He's considered the first millennial saint. He died when he was 15 and dedicated his life to God using his tech-savvy skills to create websites for the church."

Key Takeaways

• Emerging Technologies in Law Enforcement: AI bots like those developed by Massive Blue represent a significant shift in how law enforcement approaches surveillance and intelligence gathering.

• Effectiveness and Accountability: The lack of transparent results and questionable effectiveness of these tools demand greater scrutiny and accountability from both the companies developing them and the police departments deploying them.

• Ethical Concerns: The use of AI in surveillance raises profound ethical questions about privacy, bias, and the potential for misuse, necessitating comprehensive policies and regulations.

• Public Awareness: Episodes like this highlight the crucial role of investigative journalism in uncovering and analyzing the implications of emerging technologies on society.

Notable Quotes:

• Emmanuel Mayberg [06:02]: "It is a company that monitors social media, identifies suspects of various crimes via its scanning of social media, and then critically creates these AI-generated Personas."

• Jason Kebler [10:02]: "They can interact in a group setting, but they can also go one on one."

• Jason Kebler [22:40]: "People are paying for it while the company refuses to tell the city council how it works."

• Sam Cole [26:53]: "We can always count on the cops to buy a new toy and use it stupidly."

• Emmanuel Mayberg [26:31]: "I would say it probably is not effective because it's just hard to imagine a chatbot being better at undercover work than a human investigator at this point."

This comprehensive exploration by 404 Media sheds light on the burgeoning use of AI technology in policing, urging listeners to consider the ramifications of such advancements on privacy, effectiveness, and ethical standards in law enforcement.