← The 404 Media Podcast
Loading summary
Transcript62 lines
- [00:00]
A
Foreign.
- [00:04]
B
Hello and welcome to the 404 Media podcast where we bring you unparalleled access to hidden worlds, both online and IRL. 404 Media is a journalist founded company and needs your support. To subscribe, go to 404 Media Co as well as bonus content every single week. Subscribers also get access to additional episodes where we respond to their best comments. Gain access to that content@ 404 Media co. I'm your host, Joseph, and with me are the other 404 Media co founders. The first being Sam Cole. Hey, Emmanuel Mayberg.
- [00:38]
C
Hey, what's up?
- [00:39]
B
And Jason Kebler.
- [00:41]
A
Hello.
- [00:41]
B
Hello, Jason. You wanted to talk about zines?
- [00:46]
A
Yeah. So at long, long, long last, we have all of the zines printed. Um, I immediately after recording this, I'm going to go mail them. Uh, it's going to take many, many hours. We've got some help. Um, we're going to have a mailing session. So a few people have asked, hey, where's my zine? The answer now is in the mail. Um, if you. So a couple things. One, I'm going to have some extras so they've been sold out for a while. Uh, we will put more on our Shopify in the next day or two if you are interested in it. Again, the zine is about our reporting on ICE's surveillance apparatus. So very timely at the moment. Also for subscribers, we'll have a PDF of the zine on this site and we're also trying to figure out how to sort of like make it more widely available. I think we'll probably do like a pay what you want and it's okay if that's free just because like the. It's such an important topic. But we're going to get that up probably later this week and I actually don't have the URL right now. We'll put it in the show notes what the URL will be for that. But basically Zine is done. It's going to be on the Internet very soon and if you bought one, it's in the mail. So thank you to everyone who ordered. If you didn't get one, there's probably going to be about 100 more that are going up on our Shopify in the next day or two. This is your announcement, so thank you so much. Check it out.
- [02:26]
B
So DDoS our site by refreshing the Shopify. Actually, it wouldn't even be our site, it would be the Shopify. So we're going to be fine, you know, if you keep spamming refresh to get the zine. You'll be fine with that. Let's get to this week's stories. The first one written by Sam, and I think Emmanuel worked on it as well. Aliens and angel numbers. Creators Worry porn platform ManyVids is falling into quote, AI psychosis. End quote. Sam, let's start with simply, what is this platform? I'm not sure if everybody will have heard of it. I'm sure some listeners have, but probably not Everybody. What is ManyVids exactly?
- [03:12]
D
Yeah, so I think many, most commonly People refer to ManyVids as a competitor to only fans. So you can buy subscriptions to different creators, you can buy custom videos, you can watch like live cam shows, stuff like that. So it's a porn platform essentially, but it's more for like independent creators.
- [03:39]
B
So.
- [03:39]
D
And it's been around since 2014. Sorry, that's important context because it's been around for a really long time.
- [03:43]
B
Oh, I see. So it's been around way longer than OnlyFans.
- [03:47]
D
Yeah.
- [03:48]
B
Okay, so the CEO and the founder, Bella French, what do sort of what's their background and what do they usually post about online? I'm sure listeners can tell where I'm getting to, which is the stuff in the headline, but what was her background and what does she usually post about?
- [04:09]
D
Yeah, so Bella is a former sex worker herself. She's been very open over the years about that being the reason why she started many vids. She wanted to create a platform that was good for online sex workers and content creators. She had been on cam platforms and things like that herself. So she was like, I can do it better, I can do it more with like the interests of creators in mind. And that's been the position that she's had since the beginning, basically, and many since 2014, since she's dead since pretty much. Yeah. It's like she launched it very publicly. Like, I am formally a creator in this world. I want to create a platform that's like beneficial to other creators. So that's, that's also kind of been like the. I mean, it's. It's a marketing strategy. Right. Like, it's like come to my platform and use my platform because I understand you and I understand the adult content creators needs. So. And you know, as. As a former cam cam model, I can do this in a way that like the big, you know, like even like it was pre OnlyFans, but even like the big platforms are doing it. So that's been the pitch for many years. A lot of people are like hot and cold on many vids who use it. It's definitely. It takes a big cut, takes a bigger cut than a lot of other platforms on different types of content. It's pretty flawed in a lot of, like, UI type of ways, but a lot of people use it. It's got, you know, like millions of, like, combined users and creators. So it's incredibly popular. Yeah, it's, that's, that's her background as far as, like, where she's coming from. She's always been about, I want to make a better, more profitable experience for the people that I'm serving, which are the creators on the platform first and foremost, versus, like, you know, I want to make a bunch of free tube sites for guys. It was like, you know, I, I believe in sex workers. I want them to succeed. So it's been her thing.
- [06:27]
B
So I'm just curious before we get more to the news, you say it became very popular, it has millions of users and creators combined. Do you think it became popular because of that sort of marketing pitch and position? Right. You know, I think there's. It's a sincere position as well. Do you think it was that or the fact it came before OnlyFans or a bit of both. Like, why do you think it actually got successful? Because also, it seems like sometimes the product can be a bit faulty, as you say, with the UI and that sort of thing.
- [07:03]
D
Yeah, I mean, I think that that has been a big part of it. It is like a good platform. Like most people who are on it are like, yeah, this is a platform that I use, like in conjunction with a bunch of other platforms, which is usually how adult creators operate. It's like they're diversifying their revenue through, like, being on only fans, selling custom content on many vids, doing like, sexting shifts on Sex Panther. It's like different platforms do different things for people. And so you might find your niche here, you might find your niche there for different things. So I think that's, that's been a big part of it. I would say definitely that's that pitch. And especially just like so many people being on manyvids and using it as a huge part of the revenue stream is why the site is as big as it is today, which is the case for like, so many, so many different platforms. OnlyFans, Pornhub, all these other platforms that, you know, host adult content are relying on the creators. It's like they can't actually make any money or be profitable without the people making the content. So it's kind of like, you know, a cycle Effect. But yeah, for sure, that's a good question. I mean, I think it's definitely a big part of it that she's been like, yeah, I'm here with you, I'm in it with you. I want your. Your needs to be heard.
- [08:21]
B
Sure. So she's been posting like that for a long time, running the site. Then something changed recently, or rather I will say people believed something changed and they started to notice a shift. When was that? And what exactly am I referring to? What was this shift that people perceived?
- [08:46]
D
Yeah, so around August, as far as I can tell, just kind of going back through Twitter posts and the news post, which the site itself has a news feed that acts like Twitter basically, or like X. But around August, September, August, it started to look a little different. It was a lot more like engagement farming, like influencer bait type stuff. Like they would reply to other like prompts on X and be like, our purpose is to protect feminine energy to return the balance. And was posting like bullet point lists about like the boldness scale and how everything and all the leadership is connected. And it got like, woo, woo. You know, it got really like pseudo spiritual business guru type stuff. And it stopped being consistently like, here's a new creator on the platform who's doing really well. Everybody check her out. It's then turns into like, here's a flowchart that's hand drawn showing a new safe for work model that we're going to do next to bullet Points written by ChatGPT about member verification flows without a lot of context. And that's the thing, these aren't formulated thoughts or statements from the company. They're just kind of like weird. Not even the level of like LinkedIn lunatic posts, like weirder than that. Like talking about like social API for the AI Age Phase 1 Pride Engine. It's like if I read all this stuff out loud, it would sound absolutely insane. It's like talking about high universal income engines, the distribution hub of the new economy. And it's doing a lot of the parallels that chatbots, especially ChatGPT, does. So it'll say, this is not a charity, this is the pride engine. It's like, this is not this, it's that we're not doing this, we believe in that.
- [10:55]
B
So that's why people think these posts are generated by ChatGPT or AI more broadly. Because of those characteristics.
- [11:05]
D
Yeah, I mean, it's that. It's just like when things are really like titles are randomly bolded, there's a lot of bullet point emojis. There's a lot of really choppy text that's, I don't know, kind of chopping up one paragraph into a list. And then you also have AI generated images and videos as parts of those posts. So it would be just videos of an alien ship coming through a window next to a post about the aliens. Asked why it took us so long to get here. The. And then you also have just like screenshots of literal chatgpt.
- [11:43]
B
Oh.
- [11:44]
D
Which is like a big hint that it's. It's all inspired by ChatGPT. Obviously, we don't know for sure. I asked, I'm gonna get into this, but I've asked on many vids, many times who's. Who's doing the post. And also if they're AI generated. And then they send me back more of the same, more very more of.
- [12:02]
B
The woo woo stuff.
- [12:04]
D
Yeah. So yeah, again, it's like I want to be careful about just calling it definitely AI because we don't definitely know that it is, but the videos definitely are, the images that are going along with the post definitely are. And it all kind of lines up to a lot of what we see just with different people who are really into AI. Chatbots kind of fall into a different kind of pattern in this way.
- [12:32]
B
Yeah. A different pattern of posting of what they're saying, all of that sort of thing. I'll come back and ask you about how creators are reacting in a second, but Emmanuel, I think he works on this as well. What did you find and sort of what did you think of it as you were looking into it?
- [12:53]
C
So we've been looking at this for a while, I think. Initially Sam told me that some sources who use many vids flagged it to her. And we looked at it and it was definitely weird at the time, but we kind of put it on the back burner and honestly we're a little unsure about how to cover it. But then in the last couple of weeks, some more creators reached out and some of them reached out to me and told me about it. And I think ultimately the thing that made us want to cover it is.
- [13:32]
A
That.
- [13:34]
C
These type of. Well, let me. I should state again, just so we're very clear about this, we don't have like full insight into Bella French or whoever else is like, operating these accounts. We're not psychologists, but our sources defined or described the post as exhibiting what we now call AI psychosis. And a lot of people, as we mentioned before, reach out to us with similar delusions. And there's definitely a lot of Parallels between the content of the post and other behavior like that that we've seen and all of that has already been in the news and we've all seen various forms of it. I can't think of another example where a platform that people rely on for their income just spoke in its official capacity about this stuff, in this manner. It's like imagine one day you look at your phone and like Stripe, you know what I mean? Starts posting about like the spirit gods and the future of humanity and you're like, oh my God, like our entire, entire income relies on this platform and it's like CEO of YouTube or something, right? And it's like, who's at the wheel right now? So I think they're very, it's like a very fair concern to raise and to report on. And unfortunately, I guess I wasn't sure what to expect, but the response hasn't been super encouraging. I think it's possible that there is a separation between the business side and the technical side and whoever is doing the public facing social side. And I hope that that is the case because the platform is still functional. But us reaching out and making it a story and asking for official comment and getting official comment back, none of that was encouraging.
- [15:39]
B
Can you elaborate just a tiny bit? I know this isn't in the article, so you may only want to say a little bit, but what do you mean by the response not being encouraging? Just that any response you got was sort of more of the same sort of posting. Is that what you mean, Emmanuel?
- [15:57]
C
Yeah, I mean Saka probably because Sam did the communication with many vids. But it's like, I guess what I was imagining, that there is a scenario where we reach out, we highlight all these posts, we say that creators are worried and somebody else steps in and says, oh, we didn't realize that this is the impression that we're giving users and that they even knew that this was what was going on and they step in and say, oops or hey, this is just something that we post about. But the business is very safe and don't worry about it. It wasn't like that. It was more like, you know what I mean? Stay tuned for more spiritual awakenings that we will bring to you. You know what I mean? Perhaps on the Lex Friedman podcast or the Joe Rogan podcast. You know, it's like that is like officially where we're still waiting for the ultimate comment is, I guess Bella. It's Bella, right? Sam, who says that she. The only way to properly respond to this is a three Hour podcast, which she suggests either Joe Rogan or Lex Friedman, another popular podcaster, should host. And I would, I mean, by all means, it's like, it's a heavy, complicated subject worthy of discussion, but I don't. I don't think. I don't think Joe Rogan is going to have her on, you know, Well.
- [17:18]
D
I mean, like, I think I could see a world where they would. And it's like, it's not a good one because just to give more context to why this is all, like, freaking people out, it's not just like, oh, this item on posts. Weird. On her personal website, she changed her bio to completely shift her ideology and worldview of sex work. She Sometime between November and now, because November is the last time we have an archive of the site, and it wasn't there then. But at some point recently, in the last couple months or weeks, she changed her bio on her personal website where she says she is, you know, working on many beds and she's the CEO and all that, that she wants to transition 1 million people out of the adult industry. She says she. When she started the site, she had two choices, surrender to an exploitative industry or dismantle it. And now she's kind of bleeding a lot of that, like, woo woo stuff into this statement on her site. She says she was guided by first principles and core value thinking. Bella is leading MV's next evolution, a fintech social platform hybrid that turns digital presence into economic creation. Our goal is to transition 1 million people out of the adult industry and do everything we can to ensure no one new enters it. We are working to transform an industry we don't believe should exist, but recognize that simple elimination creates deeper shadows. So, like, I'm reading that as someone who is a creator and I'm like. I'm like, okay, well, that's the end of this site. Like, if you're not gonna allow anyone else to enter the sex industry, what's happening with new users on many vids? Why is many vids now? This grand plan, this big scheme where you're gonna dismantle the sex work industry. The sex industry and believe it's exploitative all of a sudden?
- [19:14]
B
I mean, it's completely opposite.
- [19:16]
D
Yeah, right? It's the opposite of what she's been saying for years and years and years. And like we said, it's kind of built the trust of users into like, I am here and I'm on your side and I believe in sex workers and the industry's right to exist. And then she's like, actually it's exploitative and I want to dismantle it and transition people out of the industry, which is a talking point that you hear from sex work exclusionary radical feminists who want to ban sex work at large, ban porn at large, and believe that, like, sex workers need to be saved from this vile industry that they've entered. So all of that combined with these very public sort of meltdowns, I think by the time this podcast comes out for everybody will have published another post that's about like the response and the way that they've responded, basically by saying, like, yeah, we believe in aliens, like peace sign, like heart emoji and the Lex Freeman and Joe Rogan stuff. It's like, I think that we should hash this out on a three hour podcast. And then more AI videos of her as a fireman with like lasers shooting out of her eyes. It's just bizarre, bizarre behavior from someone who you hope is like steering the ship. Again, it's like Emmanuel said, we don't really know who's got the reins at this point, but they're definitely, they're hearing the criticisms and they're laughing.
- [20:49]
B
Yeah. And someone who holds the livelihood of all of these creators in her hands and I mean, you can have the woo woo stuff and maybe some people already find that concerning. Obviously the complete about face, like, ideologically when it comes to sex work, must be probably the most terrifying part to a lot of creators. With that said, what are some of these creators saying? Are they going to switch platforms? Are they going to stick it out? Like, what are they saying?
- [21:22]
D
So I think a lot of people are sticking it out. They're saying, well, we're going to, we have so much invested in this platform, so we're going to stay and see what happens. But we're not happy about it. A lot of people that I, or a few people that I talked to started from that position when I first reached out to them and I was like, hey, are you going to stay? And they said, yeah, we're going to see what happens. And then within like two days, like, as things just kind of kept getting weirder, rapidly came back and said, actually, I'm gonna start downloading all my stuff off the platform and getting out of there. So quite a few people that we talked to and a lot of people that I've seen just like online talking about this are saying we are like, it's not even like a protest thing. It's just like, I don't feel comfortable having my, like, financial data and my ID and like, all these things wrapped up in a platform that, like, is losing. Seeming to lose touch with reality. It's a scary place to be, right? Yeah. Especially now, it's like, you know, our data is being used for all sorts of horrible things. So it's like, it's a big risk that a lot of people are feeling right now to stay, but it's also a big risk to leave because you're leaving so much income on the table financially. I don't know. I don't really see how this shakes out as, like, good for them reputationally in any way, but I don't know, it's just like, this is the thing about online sex work especially. It's like there's so many platforms out there to choose from and so many of them are. They don't have, like, a lot of the. The best interests of the creators at heart are just trying to scrape some cash off them. So I don't know, it's like out of the pan into the fire situation for some of these creators. So I don't know, we'll see if it's like a mass exodus or what that inflection point will be. Right now. I guess we should make clear nothing has, like, changed about the way the site operates, that I can tell. I guess if you're a creator and you've seen something change, let me know. But, like, I haven't heard anything major being like, oh, they closed new applications or new submissions because they don't want anybody else in the sex industry. It's like it's all operating as usual, but it's like kind of waiting and seeing and seeing if the. If it actually becomes, like, real instability versus hoping it doesn't.
- [23:43]
B
Yeah. Last thing I know we're not saying AI psychosis, this is how sources characterise it to us, but I think it absolutely still brings up the question of, you know, is this something we have to worry about a bit more broadly? I remember a while ago, I feel like we've seen a couple of examples, like on Twitter, like people having these seemingly AI induced, very public meltdowns. Right. And just what do you think of that? Like, we see it, obviously, people have psychosis like this, just individually complete members of the public almost by themselves, and then on big platforms, on social media or whatever. What do you think about that? Is this something we have to keep an eye out for or be worried about or.
- [24:34]
D
I mean, I think it's definitely, like, it's odd that it's happening to people in a very public Way like once a week at this point. I think we still don't know that much about how like quote, unquote, AI psychosis develops. I think I would. I mean, just in general, I know we're quoting other people and it's kind of like the slang term at this point, but it's like using chatbots is inducing delusions in some people that maybe they were already prone to, we don't really know. So seeing it happen and play out with someone in a very public facing role potentially is really disturbing. And I don't know, it makes me wonder how many people are going through this in isolation and are experiencing the same sorts of thoughts and feelings and big mindset shifts in their belief system in private or in their families or just among their friends and other people who don't have the same visibility as the CEO of a huge platform. I don't know. It's definitely concerning. I was reading earlier today, I guess the anthropic CEO posted a really long essay, like a 38 page essay about enslavement and mass destruction of mankind via AI. And it's like, does someone need to check in with him? You know, like, are we okay? I don't know what's going on there. So, yeah, it's just a little bit scary the way that, the way that these systems are putting people in these boxes, that they don't hear outside voices, even when I'm emailing many vids and I'm like, hey, people are freaked out. They just kind of keep going and they're like, yeah, we believe in aliens. Like, what are you talking about?
- [26:36]
C
If you're the CEO of a major AI company, it's not a delusion, it's like a fundraising rant.
- [26:41]
B
It's a plan.
- [26:42]
C
You'll probably get like another billion dollars, right?
- [26:45]
D
Yeah. It's not a weakness, it's a strength. Yeah, it's like, we'll put that on LinkedIn.
- [26:49]
B
Yeah, very conveniently. Making the tools that they're warning about and saying we're the responsible ones, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. All right, let's leave that there. When we come back after the break, Jason is going to tell us all about this pretty mysterious surveillance footage that did exist. Now it doesn't. Anyway, you'll hear about all about that in a second. We'll be right back after this.
- [27:24]
E
Hey there, 404 Media listeners.
- [27:27]
A
Matthew here.
- [27:27]
E
You know what I'm going to do after I finish this ad read? I'm going to go and do my litter Box. It is the worst part of having a cat. I've got three, which means I have three litter boxes. Not ideal, but let me ask you this. What if the cat's litter box didn't stink anymore? Well, enter Boxy cat. The pro in Boxy Pro stands for probiotics, which stops the bacteria that causes odors so you never smell your litter box again. Boxy Pro keeps the box continuously odor free. Infinitely. You just gotta remember to scoop. All you do is top off litter and you never have to dump out the whole box. It has amazing clumping power that makes scooping so easy. Oh, if you're ready for a litter box that doesn't stink, use Boxypro just like I do. If you're tired of switching litters looking for the one, get Boxy at box I E C A T dot com. It's the last litter you'll switch to. Enjoy 30% off with code 404 Media at boxycat.com 404 Media. That's B O X I-E-C-A T dot com 404 Media.
- [28:44]
A
You wouldn't take a prescription without knowing the problem, right? But that's exactly how most people approach nutrition. They try keto, paleo, plant based or fasting, just hoping that something sticks. But food isn't just fuel. It works with or against your genes, your hormones and your immune system. It can lower inflammation and even help reverse chronic disease. But here's the problem. You can't fix what you can't see. Are you actually low in Magnesium? Vitamin D? Omega 3s? Are toxins building up? Most people have no idea. And that's why the diet isn't the issue. It's the missing data. I've been taking my fitness more seriously recently, which means I'm taking my nutrition more seriously too. If I fuel myself better, I can work out better and I'll feel better to figure out how my body responds. Well, that's why I chose Function Health. Function is the only platform that actually shows me what's happening inside my body. You get access to more than 160 lab tests covering hormones, metabolism, heart health, inflammation, stress markers, nutrients and toxins, all tracked in one secure place. Over time, you can even add MRI and chest CT imaging. I'm going in the next few days to take my function health test. Scheduling it on their platform was extremely easy and I found a test center around the corner from my house with lots of open appointments. Their easy to use onboarding exam showed me function is serious about helping me find the missing data that will help me take control of my nutrition and my health. Own your health for $365 a year. That's a dollar a day. Learn more and join using my link. Visit functionhealth.com 404Media or use gift code 404Media25 for a $25 credit toward your membership. A New Year Colder Days this is the moment your winter wardrobe really has to deliver. If you're craving a winter reset, start with pieces truly made to last season after season. Quince brings together premium materials, thoughtful design and enduring quality so you stay warm, look sharp, and feel your best all season long. Quince has everything you need. Men's Mongolian cashmere sweaters, wool coats, leather and suede outerwear that actually hold up to daily wear and still look good. Their outerwear is especially impressive. Think down jackets, wool coats, and Italian leather outerwear that keep you warm when it's actually cold. Each piece is made from premium materials by trusted factories that meet rigorous standards for craftsmanship and ethical production. By cutting out middlemen and traditional markups, Quince delivers the same quality as luxury brands at a fraction of the price. The result is classic styles. You'll love that hold up year after year. Quince is slowly but surely taking over most of my wardrobe as I replace my old fast fashion with timeless classics that I actually like wearing, like this 100% cotton sweater that I practically live in these days. Refresh your winter wardrobe with quince. Go to quince.com 404media for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's quince.com 404media free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com 404media. Foreign.
- [32:07]
B
We are back. Jason, you wrote this one. The headline is DHS says critical ICE surveillance footage from abuse case was actually never recorded. Doesn't matter. So first off, what is this footage and what did DHS say before? Because we you wrote an earlier article and this is building on it.
- [32:30]
A
Yeah. So this is like a big giant shit show. It's like a really messy situation that stems from a lawsuit filed by people detained in Broadview, which is suburban Chicago ICE detention center that got like a lot of attention back in October when ICE was doing like really high profile raids in Chicago. And so Broadview is a place where people are supposed to be processed and not held overnight. Like notably they're only supposed to be there for a few hours normally and then they're supposed to be sent to another place. But what was happening was people were being kept there for like weeks on end. And they were being held allegedly in really horrendous conditions. From their lawsuit. They said like, quote, they are denied sufficient food and water. The temperatures are extreme and uncomfortable. The physical conditions are filthy with poor sanitation, clogged toilets and blood, human fluids and insects in the floor, in the sinks and the floor. Federal agents who patrol Broadview under defendants authority are abusive and cruel. So basically it's a class action lawsuit from people who are held there. And as part of this, it was filed by the ACLU and the MacArthur Institute for Justice, which are like two really big civil liberties groups. So as part of this, they were seeking surveillance footage from inside of Broadview that would show what the conditions were. So there's like all these surveillance cameras at Broadview. And it turns out that DHS says that basically this footage from October 20th through October 31st, so 11 days, like nearly two weeks during this super critical period is missing, like more or less. And so.
- [34:25]
B
So why is that period so critical?
- [34:27]
A
It's critical because that's like what the loss. That's like the time period that these, you know, that, that Broadview was overcrowded, that the alleged abuses happened. Like it, this was like when there was a surge in people being detained. It's like a really important time period. This like 11 day period that is missing. And so we had covered this before and initially the government said that the footage was irretrievably destroyed, was the sort of language that they were using. And then a few weeks later there was like another court hearing and they said that a system crash caused the footage to be deleted. And now like in a filing from this week, the government basically said that the footage is not missing, that it was never recorded in the first place. So basically like the surveillance cameras were not even running for 11 days during this critical period. And so this is the, you know, third story that they've told. And the kind of like specifics here, which we'll get into now are really crazy. It's just like not a good situation.
- [35:43]
B
Sure. Before you get to those, I'm not sure if this is gonna be clear or not, but is there any indication in these court filings or elsewhere why the story has changed? Was it like they genuinely didn't know at first or then they were given wrong information or they just flat out lied? Like, is there any indication of why the story has changed or is that not clear?
- [36:07]
A
So I think this is like the critical part of the story. So basically what I have been able to suss out from these court records is that the people who run the surveillance system within Broadview is not dhs. It is an outside contractor. Like they have basically said, like they've, they, they have an outside contractor who runs these CCTV cameras, these, these surveillance cameras. And that company is a company called 5 by 5. Like the number 5 by 5. And crucially there's like no information about 5 by 5 management on the Internet really at all, like nothing I was able to find like their incorporation documents and that's it. But there's no website, there's basically like no information about it at all. And through this court case we have learned that 5 by 5 management is one person. It's like a one person company and it's not clear like what they do, what other clients they have, like why they are qualified to do this in any way, shape or form. But basically like this one person was running this surveillance system and something happened. We don't know what, like we're trying to learn what. That's part of the court proceedings. But basically there was something that happened that caused the cameras to go down for 11 days. And no one noticed during this time. Allegedly. Like the story is that no one noticed during this critical time. And so basically DHS is blaming 5 by 5 management for what happened. And 5 by 5 management has not been deposed in the case yet, meaning 5x5 management hasn't said what happened yet. So the story came seems to be like leaking out or, you know, I say leaking like it's dripping out, like it's, there's one bit of information, another bit of information. And it seems to be there's been like a couple meetings between the ACLU lawyers, the DHS lawyers, like the Department of Justice lawyers, and five by five management where they're like trying to figure out what's going on and what happened. And the story at the moment is that there is a server that controlled not just the surveillance systems, but like other information that is relevant to the case, like I don't know, just other computer files about ongoings at Broadview and that server died at some point. And so like the super interesting thing is that like it's not just the footage that is missing, but also some of the other files that the plaintiffs have requested, like the retention policies, some stuff about like, which people are actually like detained at Broadview. You know, things like this. We actually don't even know like everything that was on the server because they, they haven't said yet. And so in one of these filings, the plaintiffs actually say that they had a meeting with 5 by 5 where they were like, yo, you need to give us everything off this server. You need to transfer it to a new server like that we can access and read. And five by five was required to come up with a plan to do this. And in that plan they said, you have to pay me money to do this. Like you have to pay additional money. We're not doing it unless you give us more money. And we require indemnity from legal repercussions. And so indemnity means they can't be held liable for like losing this stuff. Basically like that. That is what they have proposed. And the lawyers for the plaintiffs were like, that's a non starter. That's fucking crazy. Because if you get subpoenaed, if you're part of a court case like this, like you can't be like, pay me money or I'm not doing it. Yeah, exactly. Especially it's like it was your job to keep this online. Like that was your job in the first place.
- [40:38]
B
Getting subpoenaed is now like a side hustle where you can like make a few more thousand dollars or something by. Yeah. Giving over pretty crucial evidence in the court case. No, that's not, that's not how it works.
- [40:50]
A
Yeah, so I mean this, this, like I said, it's crazy because basically like this random company that no one has ever heard of was in charge of all these surveillance systems. It went down for like reasons that we don't really know. And now they're just like, oops, we don't have it. And if you want any information, you have to pay me more money and give me legal immunity. It's like really nuts. And like later this week there's going to, the guy is going to be deposed. So you know, I'll continue to cover it, but like theoretically we will learn more at some point, hopefully later this week, although there's been like a lot of different delays. But basically like DHS has, has been saying like, we didn't do anything wrong, too bad you don't have this footage. And then like a really other critical argument that they are making is saying that even if we did have the footage, it wouldn't be relevant and you can't have it. And it's crazy that you're asking for it because the conditions in the detention center have improved since the lawsuit was filed and therefore it's no longer relevant. Which is like really, really crazy argument to make.
- [42:04]
B
Right, right. Cause the lawsuit is about particular abuses and conditions at a certain point in time. It's not like, well, we made it better now, so you can relax again. That's not how it works either.
- [42:18]
A
Yeah, I think they're trying to make a really complicated procedural argument basically and trying to say, we don't need to give this to you yet, because the next step in this case is about a specific restraining order, about how inmates are being treated now and we're not treating them badly anymore. So there's like nothing to change. But like, the facts of the matter stand that the lawsuit itself is about abuses that happened in the past when this footage should have been recorded and retained and all that.
- [42:56]
B
Yeah. Has the judge sort of leaned in any particular direction, such as, yes, granting the plaintiffs, you know, asks or demands for certain evidence or blocking it? Or is the judge kind of at arm's distance right now?
- [43:12]
A
The judge actually did say, like, this is crazy. You have to, you have to do like a good faith, like, explanation of like, what's going on here. And so the judge like largely rejected the government's argument that this doesn't matter, that, you know, it doesn't have to provide this thing. It was like a procedural document. So it's not like a long opinion about how the judge feels. But it's basically like, no, we're like rejecting this. And you do have to explain, I think like, this, this is a pretty high profile lawsuit. It's been going on for months. You know, the specifics here are pretty important, as in like ICE has been having these like really makeshift detention centers. Again, like this is supposed to be a place where people were just processed quickly and then put on, like, put elsewhere. And in this case they were held there for like a really long time in overcrowded, like, conditions. And even the government in its filings say like, we're not treating them that badly anymore, kind of admitting that, you know, the conditions at one point were not ideal even by ISIS standards. And so that's, that's not ideal. But I think also just to like expand out the context slightly, there's this big discussion now about ICE reforms or potential ICE reforms and like, what the Democrats are asking for to, you know, not shut down the government or what have you. And one of them is body camera footage or body cameras on ICE agents which they currently don't have unless they're making like propaganda videos with GoPros and meta ray ban glasses and things like that.
- [45:02]
B
Although apparently in the pretty shooting they did have body cams, but apparently that was reported, maybe.
- [45:10]
A
Well, they don't universally have them at the moment. They, like. Yeah, some of them sometimes do. Yeah, I think. But this case sort of shows or like the argument that they're making is like, who controls that footage is really important because in this case, like, the entity controlling this footage is like a third party random contractor and they lost it. And then there's also just the fact that even getting this footage, even as part of a court case where the judge said you have to provide this footage, it's. It's not coming out like it's not being provided. And so I think that this sort of raises all sorts of questions about, like, how accountable ICE could be held with something like a body camera footage. If this is sort of like the stance that is going to happen when footage is requested. And did an article in the past, basically, where there's been a few studies showing that body camera for cops, like, don't actually really do much in terms of accountability because sometimes they turn them off, which is illegal, but they're, like, rarely actually held accountable for that. Sometimes the body camera footage is just, like, published in the administration or the police say, well, this is what happened, and, you know, don't believe your lying eyes, et cetera, et cetera. And so as a tool for, like, accountability, it's not. There's. There's not that much actual hard evidence that it makes too much of a difference.
- [46:52]
B
Yeah, yeah, it's a really strange phenomenon because intuitively you're going to think, well, yeah, the body cams, of course, are going to be a good mechanism of accountability. But as you say, you know, studies kind of point in the other direction. That being said, well, it's a slightly different point, but of course, imagine the shootings recently if we didn't have, like, witness footage and people filming on their phones and that sort of thing. But of course, getting to your point, that is footage controlled by individual members of the public who aren't presumably going to say it was on an old server and you now need to pay me to get this information after I'm being subpoenaed or something like that. There's like an asymmetry there and how the footage is actually treated. Yeah, all right, we'll leave that there. If you're listening to the free version of the podcast, I'll now play us out. But if you are a paying 404 media subscriber, we're going to talk about Flock, or more specifically, sort of a strange thing that police are being told to do around their use of the AI enabled license plate reading cameras. You can subscribe and gain access to that content at 404 Media co. As a reminder, 404 Media is journalist founded and supported by subscribers. If you do wish to subscribe to 404 Media and directly support our work, please go to 404 Media co. You'll get unlimited access to our articles and an ad free version of this podcast. You'll also get to listen to the subscription subscribers only section where we talk about a bonus story each week. This podcast is made in partnership with Kaleidoscope and Alyssa Midcalf. Another way to support us is by leaving a five star rating and review for the podcast. That stuff really does help us out. Here is one of those from Karlsh Real Journalism, great independent media company. Thank you so much. This has been 404 Media. We'll see you again next week.