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- [00:01]
A
The pace of change today can be overwhelming. What's most important to pay attention to if you want to be creative, successful, innovative? I'm Bob Safian, host of Rapid Response. Rapid Response is a podcast that cuts through the noise, featuring candid conversations twice a week with top business leaders navigating real time challenges. From the team behind the award winning Masters of Scale podcast comes Rapid Response. Search wherever you get your podcasts to listen and subscribe.
- [00:35]
B
They won. They won the propaganda war. They know what we want to watch and it's Lego slime.
- [00:45]
C
Hello and welcome to the 404 Media podcast where we bring you unparalleled access to hidden worlds, both online and IRL. 404 Media is a journalist founding company and needs your support. To subscribe, go to 404 Media Co as well as bonus content every single week. Subscribers also get access to additional episodes where we respond to their best comments. Gain access to that content@404Media co. I'm your host, Joseph, and with me are two of the 404Media co founders and a special guest, the first of those co founders being Sam Cole.
- [01:21]
D
Hello.
- [01:22]
E
I'm back.
- [01:23]
C
And Jason Kebler.
- [01:25]
D
Hi. You sound sad. Are you sad?
- [01:29]
C
Yes, because also our regular contributor Matthew Goetz said. No, I'm very, very happy that he's here.
- [01:35]
D
Thrilling.
- [01:36]
C
I'm trying to bring the segues in. No, I just didn't sleep well, that's all. So I have my raspy voice. But I'm excited to get into these stories. Matthew, we brought you on to talk about this one that you wrote. I think Jason edited it or maybe wrote some of it as well. But the headline is Iran is winning the AI Slop propaganda war. So obviously we'll get into it. But there is a particular viral video that this article starts with, Lego themed. Can you describe just what happens in the video? Not even what it means, not even who made it, just literally what happens in the video.
- [02:19]
B
So Lego Donald Trump is gambling at a casino and he rolls the dice and they come up Iran. The way that dice may come up snake eyes and you know that you've lost. These dice come up Iran. And then a rap song kicks in and it is a rap song about how Donald Trump is a loser. And that kind of plays against a bunch of Lego footage of Trump being like sucked further and further into hell and having to face like armies of dead soldiers and drown in a river of blood and see like a bunch of dead children and be controlled on puppet strings by Benjamin Netanyahu. Then we cut back into the real world and see like Iranian missiles destroying American military assets. And that's like three minutes of that, basically.
- [03:10]
C
That's a lot. Three minutes. It's.
- [03:13]
D
It's very catchy though. It's like, I mean, it really makes it all.
- [03:18]
B
Because I was watching it before we jumped on again just now and I was like, the song really makes this work in the way that propaganda works.
- [03:27]
D
Do you still feel that it's Hamilton esque?
- [03:30]
B
I do. I stand by this as a musical theater nerd. As someone who has seen Hamilton many times before. Unfortunately, yes. I feel like the LLM that they used to pump out this rap song sounds like it was trained on Hamilton.
- [03:48]
C
Sounds like there may be disagreement from the editor being Jason there. How about. I don't think I've actually heard it. Let's play a small clip right now so the audience can decide for themselves whether this is Hamilton themed or not.
- [04:08]
D
Yeah.
- [04:10]
B
You crossed the ocean just to find
- [04:11]
D
your credit Sacrificed your own boyce for a lie Listen. Yeah, yeah. Make America great again.
- [04:27]
C
Okay? So please don't write in or whether you think that is the case or not. Just keep that thought to yourself. But these and other videos are made by Explosive News Team. I guess before we talk about some other videos, what on earth is Explosive News Team?
- [04:51]
B
So as far as I've been able to suss out, which is really interesting, again thinking about this as I was reporting on that, how hard it is right now to suss out the truth of what is going on in any one thing. It's always difficult during the war, but this particular administration and this particular country, it's not super easy. So. But as far as I can tell, they are Iranians that are running a like news agency slash propaganda team. And primarily on telegram seems to be where like stuff goes first. So you see like the Lego videos that go viral on other social media sites, Instagram and Twitter, especially X.com but they also have like a guy who does like face to camera, tells you what's going on. Like kind of walking around outside explaining like the war and like the minutiae of the day to day. But it's the Lego stuff that people really love from them.
- [05:53]
C
Yeah, we'll get to the Lego stuff in a minute because that definitely is frankly the most interesting part. Do we have any idea? And I appreciate, you know, there's already a fog around this and then there's the fog of war as well in the way. But do we have any idea if the Explosive News Team is like part of the government, or it's just sort of random people, or it's an offshoot. Like, is there any indication? Or do we kind of need researchers to look into that more before we have a better idea of exactly, Sort of.
- [06:25]
B
I think we need, like, a Farsi speaker and someone who's an expert in Iran to, like, watch all of the videos and look for the tells, which I am not sure. So, yeah, I don't. I don't know.
- [06:38]
D
Yeah, I mean, I think this is one of the problems with AI slop in general is that it's hard to tell unless there's something extremely distinctive about it. It's hard to tell who is making it, where it's coming from.
- [06:52]
C
It's.
- [06:52]
D
It's also usually pretty hard to tell which tools are being used. I think in some cases it's obvious. In this case, I'm not sure what they're using. It could be Sea Dance, but I'm not sure.
- [07:06]
C
Yeah. On that. What are some other examples of videos that they're making, Matthew? And I mean, apart from the Lego stuff, because this isn't like this telegram channel, this community just sprung up and only make Lego stuff. There's other sort of AI slot propaganda as well. What other stuff are they making?
- [07:26]
B
I mean, the explosive news team is pretty heavy on. They figured out that the Lego hits, and so there's a lot of lego. But the other things that I'm seeing that maybe not always necessarily from them, but is, like, Iran centric. I also see a lot of stuff kind of starring Ali, who's the founder of Shia Islam and is, like, really important to, like, 12 or Islam in Iran, kind of depicted as a superhero, like, pushing back American forces. I also see a lot of. There's, like, anime the news. Have y'.
- [08:04]
D
All.
- [08:05]
B
Surely y' all have seen versions of this where it's, like, important news stories done in an anime style. I'm seeing a lot of that, too. Like AI generated Iran war footage, but in a style of anime. And it's always kind of depicted in a hellscape and the American soldiers are losing and then just kind of a lot of, like, stuff that I would almost classify as, like, past generation, five years ago. Kind of has that weird, like, gross sheen to it that is from earlier models. You mean earlier? Yeah, earlier model looking like very quick cuts, you know, like Trump kind of doing this, and then like an American soldier leaning over and dying. Like, it kind of runs the gamut. But the LEGO stuff is really what seems to be hitting.
- [08:53]
C
Sure. So. Well, I Mean, I guess there's two questions there. I'm more interested in the latter. But why do you think the LEGO is hitting. But I think more importantly, like, why do you think they're doing lego? Because I think you make some pretty good points in the piece itself.
- [09:10]
B
So there's some stuff I was thinking about that's not in the piece, but it is culturally ubiquitous on a worldwide level. So, like, I think propaganda works best when it's simple and, like, easily read and understood. And LEGO is kind of beloved the world over. It's like one of the most recognizable IPs outside of, like, you know, Mickey Mouse. And I think it's easily animated. It seems to lend itself to this kind of AI aesthetic. Like, you don't, when you see it, you don't read it necessarily as like, AI slop instantly the way you would like some of these other videos, like the anime videos and some of the more realistic quote, unquote stuff that I've seen. And I think that Iran has been. Has known that America is its enemy for a long time and has studied us and watched us and knows that we respond to cartoon characters.
- [10:12]
C
That was the big finding.
- [10:13]
B
A lot of our cultural heroes are comic book heroes and mythological figures and that we love that stuff. And I think that this, not all of the LEGO propaganda is designed for an American audience, but a lot of it is, a lot of it is. And I think they want Americans to see it and so they make it into a simple cartoon that they know will kind of like be instantly recognized and go viral.
- [10:38]
D
Well, I know that we are going to get into this more, but I think this is a good time to say, like, the message in this is targeted directly at Americans for the most part. And it's like, it hits the high notes of the sort of criticisms of Trump and this war where it's like in the LEGO videos, it's like Trump is going to Iran to take Iranian oil. Trump is doing this as a distraction from the Epstein, like, Epstein figures very heavily into the propaganda. Like, I think that the fact that it's like destroying the economy, like all this sort of stuff, like, plays into the type of AI propaganda that's coming out of Iran. And so I think it resonates not just on a, like, oh, Lego is like a, you know, a very famous brand, but it also resonates on the level of like, the stuff that it's saying is hitting these, like, the criticism that people have over this war.
- [11:41]
B
Have you seen the new one?
- [11:44]
D
I don't think so.
- [11:45]
B
No, so everything that you're just saying times a thousand. So it's Lego Trump in the Oval Office this time they've got a bandage on his left hand which is a reference to these bruises that keep showing up and that people can spread around every time they pop up. And there's a no Kings protest on the, the lawn and he's looking at it and they are playing on a stereo the Loser song from the previous video. It's like part of the no Kings protest. They're, they're building these Lego videos, are building their own lore.
- [12:19]
C
Yeah. There's a throwback like the previous video. Yeah.
- [12:24]
B
And then like he turns around and it keeps cutting to somebody in Iran making a coffin. It says loser on it. They ship to him and there's a shot where the coffin is like open and it says loser. And Donald Trump is screaming and it, and the coffin is surrounded by like the dead bodies of like blonde haired children, which is what they, which is like every time they reference Epstein in the videos, like that's, that's what they use.
- [12:53]
C
So there's Epstein in here as well, just to be clear, in some capacity, right?
- [12:57]
B
Oh yeah, they, they often hit that over and over and over again. Like, even, even if it's just like a parting shot on the last title card be like, remember the Epstein files? He's in the Epstein files over and over and over again.
- [13:13]
C
Right. That all makes sense. On sort of the flip side, there is obviously a lot of US American AI slop propaganda. Right. It's not so much about the war. Right. It's much more domestic stuff. Like there was a White House video, things about the new farming initiative or something. It looks like Trump is in Animal Crossing and it'll be interesting to see if Nintendo does anything there considering it's very aggressive legally against sometimes children who are pirating games and stuff.
- [13:54]
B
Oh, fact check. He's in Pokepedia, actually.
- [13:57]
C
Wait, really? I swear it was Animal Crossing. I'm going to check.
- [14:02]
B
Pokepedia looks a lot like Animal Crossing. They and Pokepedia just came out. They're capitalizing on the, on that release
- [14:07]
C
on the new Pokemon game. Right?
- [14:08]
B
Right, on the new Pokemon game, which is basically Animal Crossing with Pokemon.
- [14:12]
C
Gotcha. Well then we also had a ton of others that I'll let you explain. But what about America's AI slop? Like what have US Agencies been up to in that world?
- [14:27]
B
So it's interesting because Iran is trying to signal to American audiences and it really does feel like Trump's stuff is very Narrowly focused on the 30% of America that still supports him, just barely. It is even within that coalition. It is very narrowly aimed at the people that have been extremely online on 4chan for a long time. It's a lot of old video game memes. They're cutting together Call of Duty Killstreak, chaos with missile strikes from Iran. There's another one where they have CJ from Grand Theft Auto San Andreas walking into the background like, oh, no, here we go again. Again, Repeatedly cut with Iran drone strikes. And then the White House comm director retweets this with the code for infinite ammo from Grand Theft Auto St. Andreas. I'm just thinking about, like, it's like so many shibboleths in that. Like, you have to understand, like, I've played too many video games. So, like, I. I instantly got all of it. But, like, if you're just like a dude in, you know, Southern California that is mad, that gas is $8 a gallon and you see all of that and you don't play video games, like, none of it makes any sense to you, just looks like nonsense. But you see the Lego video and, like, you instantly know everything. Like, all of it makes perfect sense. All of the images are clear. And I think, like, all this, the week that I wrote this, it really all culminated in the White House and a bunch of the other accounts, like, retweeting these, like, pixelated images of Trump and Vance and other, like, I will say, regime figures that, you know, ends in them releasing a White House app. So, like, this is not, like, the propaganda is not hitting, right? Not. Not hitting in quite the same way. And even their. They. And even their uses of AI that we've kind of seen are. It's like the Pokepedia thing, they see a trend popping and they kind of jump on it and they ruin the joke for everyone. They'll take Studio Ghibli and give, like, ice deportation photos of Sheen. You know, Jason's written about people kind of manifesting, using CD or using Sora to manifest these, like, ICE Detention, these ice deportation videos that never really happened. And it all just feels very, like, very narrow playing for a very narrow audience. Whereas the Iranian stuff is hitting wide and deep and getting very popular. So popular that they're referencing past videos.
- [17:17]
C
Right, Right. So I'm going to take your fact check and I'm going to Uno reverse card it because I'm looking EGTACO article headline, President Trump is now posting Animal crossing AI slob. I'm looking at the image right now. Maybe there are two. Maybe you can search and then you can Double Uno, Reverse card me. I can hear your mechanical keyboard going, trying to outdo me, but I'm looking at it. It's definitely Animal Crossing, but maybe there's another one as well.
- [17:47]
B
Okay, that is. That's definitely. That's definitely animal crossing from March 27th.
- [17:51]
C
Dude, I played 300 make farming great again.
- [17:53]
B
Okay, I think we're referring to. I think we're both correctly, but both correct. Because if you scroll down, you see the Make America Great again.
- [18:02]
C
Huh?
- [18:03]
B
That is Pokepedia. You can see the Pokemon in the upper, like, kind of right hand corner, upper center. That is. That is a Pokemon symbol on that building. That is Pokemon. Like, what do they call them? Health clinic.
- [18:18]
C
So. So we're both technically right.
- [18:21]
B
Which is correct.
- [18:22]
C
Which is the best kind. So now that we know no one won that battle between Joseph and Matthew, who is winning the AI slop off between America and Iran? I mean, it seems pretty clear from everything you just said.
- [18:38]
B
Iran, if you've got. I mean, the fact that we're having a podcast discussion about Iran's Lego videos, like, it's over. Like, they won. They won the propaganda war. They know us. They know what we want to watch. And it's Lego slop. We'll eat that up. Set it to a Hamilton song. You've got us. You won again.
- [19:01]
C
Disputed, Jason.
- [19:05]
D
Well, so I was just going to say, I mean, I edited this piece. It was great. And I added a paragraph to Matthew's great article, which is basically that, you know, it's hard to say exactly what's going on here. Like, I think that obviously the Iranians have been studying America and American culture for a long time. Like, all the points that Matt made. But also with AI slop more generally, the social media platforms have really incentivized people from other countries to pay attention to America and American culture and American politics in a way that they might not otherwise. Because as we've reported before, it's like, if you can make AI content that's viral in the United States, you can make more money that way. And, like, obviously, the Iranian propaganda is not intended to make money. It's not a, like, money making, you know, thing. It's not. They're not trying to collect bonus program money, et cetera. But, like, what has happened is social media companies and AI companies have incentivized thousands, millions, who knows? Like many, many, many people in other countries to practice making AI generated content that resonates with Americans. And so therefore, you have like, you're basically like, training a workforce to, like, do propaganda to the US and that is what has happened on social media more broadly. And then here in the U.S. it's like, I don't know, we just have a bunch of fucking shit posters who are trying to talk to their own insular communities. And it's like, not. It's just doesn't resonate as well, I don't think. And it's like you have like a bunch of people on Truth Social and on X who are just like, laughing at their own jokes over and over and over again. They can't really see, like, the broader context of what's happening here. They can't understand how, like, the world sees us or they don't care. And I think that's, that's like, one of the reasons why, I think, like, the propaganda that's being made by this administration and the propaganda that's being made within the US just like, isn't hitting as hard.
- [21:24]
C
Yeah, that makes complete sense. All right, we will leave that there. When we come back after the break, we're going to talk about something entirely different about AI strike zones in baseball. Baseball is back on 404 Media. We'll be right back after this.
- [21:55]
B
This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Well, welcome to April. It's tax season, one of the worst times of the year. And no matter how bad it may seem for you, I promise, as freelance journalist, mine are worse. I've had some truly horrific tax seasons this year shaping up to be a doozy. Mistakes, they have been made. So I promise you, as bad as things look, mine are worse. This month I really want to normalize the emotional weight that financial stress can bring to people. And I want to remind you that struggling with money is part of life. It does not mean that you have failed to. Sometimes you just gotta get the right kind of support. And BetterHelp can provide some of the emotional support you might need in these trying times. BetterHelp's therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and they are fully licensed in the United States. And BetterHelp has a therapist match guarantee. It does the initial matching for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. And if you aren't happy with that initial match, you can switch to a different therapist at any time. So when life feels overwhelming, therapy can help. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com 404media that's B-E-T-T-E-R-H-E-L-P.com 404media this message
- [23:14]
D
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- [27:07]
C
All right, we are back. This story written by Jason, quote, you can't defeat the robots, end quote. Baseball's AI strike zone is must watch television. Let me just read this sentence of your piece, Jason, to contextualize it for everybody to understand that, you know, this is much broader than baseball immediately off the bat. So you write this very human, very emotion driven mistake, then set up a series of events resulting in the first ever manager ejection for arguing about a robot's decision. Perhaps a glimpse at the future of baseball. And if you squint, a microcosm of various human AI beefs in society more broadly. So what episode were you talking about? Like, what specific mistake happened here? And then we'll talk about the system.
- [28:01]
D
Yeah, in the Orioles Game on Sunday. The Twins manager, who's a new manager, whose name I'm blank. Derek Shelton is his name. In the ninth inning of the game, basically, like, the pitcher used this new ABS system, which is an automated ball strike system, like an AI automated challenge system for the strike zone, which we will talk more about. He argued with, like, the umpire over the decision that it had made and sort of like the specifics around whether the Orioles player had challenged quick enough. And the Orioles announcer, who's this guy? Kevin Brown said this.
- [28:52]
F
And Helsley drops in a slider. That is called ball four. I don't think Adley Rutchman. I think he probably did challenge. The pitcher is challenging. Oh, the pitcher is challenging. Yeah, he put him right to his hat. Ryan Helsley with the first pitcher challenge. And it goes. The first challenge by an Orioles pitcher, and Derek Shelton is incensed. He didn't think Helsley got that off in time. Well, he went right to his half. He came off the mound and tapped his hat. Laz Diaz is yelling at Derek Shelton to get back. And the runner Keyshaw will be sent back to first. And Derek Shelton's been thrown out. He's arguing with the robots. You can't defeat. Defeat the robots. I think he's arguing that Helsley took too much time. He is to challenge it. That's what he's just think. You throw a pitch, you think so strike. You kind of walk off the mound waiting for Adley. And he dropped the ball a little bit. I thought Adley, when he dropped the ball, turned to the umpire and verbally. Because you can verbally challenge. Exactly. I was not watching Helsley. Yeah, well, he's tapping his head.
- [30:04]
D
And then this clip went like, extremely viral. Like millions and millions of views on different social media platforms. Like, it definitely broke baseball containment. And that's sort of when I was like, oh, I should write about this, because I was watching this in real time, which was very exciting.
- [30:20]
C
Sam, I feel like you probably weren't watching in real time as well. I feel like you've been in get sadly.
- [30:25]
B
Okay.
- [30:26]
C
Have you followed ABS at all or you're still old school, not giving into the robots?
- [30:35]
E
This is the first time reading Jason's piece was the first time I had actually heard of it. I am a fan of the Orioles only and I do not follow baseball beyond what the Orioles are doing. So this is how it entered my stratosphere. Was this cover.
- [30:53]
C
Well, that was, as Jason said, now it's broke containment. So not only to you but to the website as well.
- [30:59]
E
Yeah. And the clips are great. All the clips about the clips that are in the story that you can go on the site and see from Jason's piece or just so fantastic. It's like rage, bait and ejection from ABS are some of the captions. Just actually must watch tv. So I think I will be tuning in more to see the. To watch the ABS drama unfold.
- [31:19]
C
So we've been saying ABS a lot. Jason, what is abs? For those who don't know or. Automated ball strike system.
- [31:27]
D
Yeah. Let me explain how baseball has worked for hundreds of years. Like 120 years.
- [31:33]
C
Have a seat.
- [31:35]
D
Yeah. No, so. So, like, very famously in baseball, you get four balls and three strikes per batter, as called by the home plate umpire who sits behind the catcher. And the pitch comes in if it crosses over the plate, you know, within the strike zone, which is defined as, like, the area above the. Above home plate. And then also, I mean, it sometimes changes, but it's basically like four from the letters on a player's jersey to, like, the bottom of their knees. So pitch can be, like, high, outside, low, whatever. And the umpire, who is a human, has judged that. And the umpire for, you know, since baseball's inception, has been the final arbiter of what the strike, of whether a given pitch is a strike or not. And over the last few years, they have put, like, Major League Baseball, and the teams have put, like, all these sensors and cameras in their stadiums, usually for, like, broadcasting purposes. And so if you've been watching a baseball game at any time over the last, like, decade, there is a box on the screen, like, while you're watching tv, and it shows what the strike zone should be. And then multiple times a game, every game, a ball will either be thrown outside of that zone and it's called the strike by the umpire, or it'll be in the zone and it's called the ball by the umpire. And that is like, a very common experience where it's like, oh, the umpire got this call wrong, and there's nothing that you can do about it.
- [33:10]
C
But everybody can see they got it wrong.
- [33:12]
D
Everyone can see that they got it wrong. And it becomes this, like, I mean, super annoying part of baseball. Honestly, it's like some people are very into the human element is what it's called, where it's like, oh, well, when the umpires fuck up, that's just like, part of the game. And, like, sometimes it goes for your team and sometimes it goes against your team, and there's like, there's been a rise of analytics in baseball over the last, like, 20 years, where they try to codify everything and try to, like, measure everything that's happening on a baseball field. And one thing that's been happening over the last few years is. Is this thing called umpire scorecards, where, like, after every game, there's a Twitter account and a website that is like, here's how many calls the umpire got wrong, and here's which team it favored, and here's how much it favored them by.
- [34:08]
C
And they very much an unofficial thing. Like, somebody.
- [34:10]
D
It's unofficial. Yeah, but it. But Major League Baseball also measures this. It's just Major League Baseball keeps it, like, somewhat secret. But, like, this is like, baseball nerds on their own are doing this. And then you can see, like, oh, there was, like, a really critical call that an umpire messed up in this very important situation, and it totally changed the course of the game. And, like, theoretically, you want the calls to be correct. Like, that's sort of, like, what you want to happen. And so baseball knows this. Like, the players have been bitching about this for years. Like, the fans are apoplectic about this. Like, the missed calls and stuff. Like, I'm super mad about it all the time. It's, like, one of the main things that I'm, like, mad about about baseball. And so they have implemented for this year something called the automated ball strike system. And this is not fully robot. The balls, and strikes are not automatically called by the robots. What happens is the umpires call ball or strike like normal. But then if a player disagrees with that call, they can challenge it. And the way that they challenge it is they tap their helmet or their hat, and they have to do it immediately. And then up on the jumbotron, like in the stadium, the box that people see at home.
- [35:39]
B
Yeah.
- [35:39]
D
Like, the ball is superimposed on that, and then the scoreboard calls it either a ball or a strike. And what has happened is, like, this has become a huge thing at the stadium in the kind of, like, in the first few days of the season. And so, like, whenever there's a challenge, basically, like, the fans in the stadium will lose their shit. They'll, like, either cheer when the challenge is right, or they'll boo if it's wrong or whatever. And it's become like, this big thing. And then, I think very crucially, teams can only get a challenge wrong twice per game. And so if you challenge and you're wrong, and then you challenge and you're wrong again, you can't challenge Anymore.
- [36:24]
C
Yeah, you can't spam it because that would get abused, right?
- [36:27]
D
Yeah. And so what's happening is basically, like, some players are really good at challenging, at knowing whether, like, a call is wrong or not, and others are not. And what happened in that Orioles Twins game was there was a pitch that was thrown, like, right down the middle, and a Twins player challenged it because he was pissed that he got called out, and he was wrong. And everyone knew that it was, like, a terrible challenge, but he was like an emotional little man baby in that moment, and he was pissed off, and he challenged it. And that was, like, the last challenge that the Twins had of the game. And then immediately in the next inning, the umpire messed up a call, obviously, but they were not able to challenge it. And it was like, a huge thing. Like, the Orioles got a walk out of it, and then the Orioles scored a bunch of runs and they ended up winning the game. And, like, so that. That happened in, like, the eighth inning. And then in the ninth inning, this moment happened where the Orioles closer, who's, like, the last pitcher in the game, trying to finish the game through a 32 pitch. So it's either a strikeout or a walk. Like a very important pivotal play. And it was called a ball, and the pitcher challenged it, and Derek Shelton was arguing that basically, like, he didn't challenge it fast enough, like, blah, blah, blah. And he got ejected from the game for arguing about this entire, like, process.
- [38:02]
C
Oh, wow.
- [38:02]
D
And it was very funny. There were, like, numerous moments over the course of the weekend in other games where, like, the automated ball strike system was, like, very important. There was. There's this umpire named CB Buckner who is hated by everyone because he's statistically the worst umpire. Like, he. He gets something like 85% of strikes and balls called correctly, which is very low. That means he's missing, like, more than one in 10 pitches, which is very bad.
- [38:36]
C
Right.
- [38:36]
D
And so what happened was he. He. He called this guy, like, strikeout, like, two pitches in a row. And they do this whole, like, animated thing. He's like, strike three. And, like, makes a huge, like, you know, deal out of it. And then the player challenged it twice in a row, and, like, the umpire was wrong both times. And so it's become this, like, humiliation ritual where it's like, the players are like, fuck you. You're wrong. And the umpire gets called, you know, is wrong. And they have to, like, keep playing like nothing happened. And it's added this whole, like, I don't know, it's just Added. I think it's added more to the game, like an actual human, more human element. Even though it is this automated system. Because a lot of it is about the strategy of when to use a challenge and which players you trust to use a challenge and also which players can hold their emotions in check and realize maybe that pitch was borderline. But it's not the best moment to challenge this because if I'm wrong it's going to hurt my team in some way.
- [39:40]
C
Yeah, it's like tactical, an extra layer as you say, not just of the human part, which it sounds like the human part hasn't been replaced, it's just been shifted to this sort of dynamic now and then again there can be a tactical bit. Was like, when am I actually going to use it? Which sounds interesting.
- [39:59]
D
I think it's literally like they've added like a turn based strategy game on top of baseball, which is already like an extremely strategy heavy game. But this one is like a straight up like mental game only like there's no physical aspect to it. It's just like, oh, are you good at deciphering whether that was a ball or a strike and are you going to challenge it or whatever. But anyways, this has been, as I said, like baseball has been done in one way for like 150 years and this is the first time that they're kind of adding something like this to the game, at least in terms of strike, strikes and balls, which is like the core element of baseball. And so it is kind of like adding, it's adding robots to the game. Like it is an automated system. And there is thought that like this may eventually automate umpires out of the game in terms of like maybe all of the balls and strikes should just be called by robots. Like that's been a huge debate in baseball for a long time.
- [41:06]
C
Which would get rid of the human element or more so obviously it would
- [41:10]
D
get rid of that. Yeah, it would. And like the argument for it is basically like this technology is very close to foolproof at this point. And it's. This is like something that comes up a lot. It's like, it's not generative AI. It is like machine learning and positioning and sensing and all of that. It's auto. It's an automated technology that's very adjacent to AI and it is like robotic in nature. And so I don't know, we call it AI. Some people were mad about that. It doesn't matter really. But yeah, it is like it, it kind of mirrors this debate that we've been having in society about should we let human beings do jobs that robots are better at if. Even if they lose their job and things like that. And it's like, I mean, I don't think. I think that even if they go to a full automated ball strike system, like, without the challenges, that they will let a human being stand behind home plate and, like, make the call so that there's the appearance of a human being still being there and they'll have the job. But, like, I don't know. It's kind of. It's kind of similar to, like, a lot of what we've been talking about over the last, like, little bit. And I think. I don't know, it's like, I think we try to be fair here about AI and it's like we criticize AI all the time, but also as a baseball fan, like, when umpires make the wrong call, it doesn't enhance the game in any way. It's just, like, wildly frustrating. And this system, I think in the first few days is like, this is better. It's like a better system, and I'm happy with it. And I think most people that I've seen do seem happy with it. There's some people who are like, it's too distracting. There's too many challenges. I liked the old system, but that's baseball. It's like, there's a lot of people who love the tradition of it and all of that, and so they get mad when anything changes. But I think that this rule changed. I don't know if baseball, like, Major League Baseball, like, very thoughtfully came to this decision where it seemingly, like, adds a human element to it versus takes it away. But in some way they've like, lucked into, like, what seems to be like, a really fun system that's already led to, like, all these viral moments, which the criticism of baseball over the last decade has been that it's too insular, that it's boring to watch, that there's not like, these viral moments.
- [43:52]
C
And it's like viewership is down, right?
- [43:54]
D
Yeah, no, baseball's like, in a good spot overall. But, like, compared to the NFL, compared to, like, yeah, it's just like it's been considered for so long, like, oh, America's pastime, blah, blah, blah. But it's like people don't know the most famous baseball players or they haven't. But now over the last few years, it's like Shohei Ohtani and like, there's kind of a lot of new. There's a new wave of Like MLB talent that has made baseball more popular than it's ever been, but it still lags, like, far behind in, like, cultural relevancy to, like, the NFL. And so to even have, like, these viral moments over the weekend where millions of people were looking at them like, I think that's probably good for the game.
- [44:36]
C
Yeah, I agree with the. You know, systems like this can better the game and make it more fair. I mean, you know, back when I watched a ton of football or soccer for a lot of people, you know, having a call of a offside that was incorrect, it was basically the same sort of discussion, right in that, well, the ref didn't see it or the linesman didn't see it, and maybe that's an interesting human dynamic to the game, but it's like we're playing a game of rules, and it's like, messing up in the parameters of those, and it's like, harming the game. So I basically echo what you're thinking, Sam, what do you think?
- [45:16]
E
It's also. I mean, it's something. Since you mentioned football, it's something that's happening in many different sports right now. This is not like, oh, my God, baseball is the first sport to use AI, which AI as a term is whatever, but they're using AI cameras, like, quote, unquote, AI cameras. In Wimbledon in the last year, there was a whole thing where they replaced the line judges with the AI camera and it was calling shots. And there was. The main complaint people had about that was that it was too quiet and that the line judges were much louder and that the players and the people in the stands couldn't really hear what it was calling. Just funny. They weren't even like, this is going to replace, like, an important part of the game. They were like, actually, I think that just should be like, turn the volume up a little bit. And then. Yeah, like soccer has. Or football, as Joe would say. I assume you're talking about football. Soccer, yes. Yeah. Football has the. This whole, like, thing going on with. There was like, a couple years ago where they were. The cameras were mistaking bald heads for balls. I think it's so funny.
- [46:23]
C
That's good. And then there was like, everyone's offside.
- [46:26]
E
Yeah, everyone's.
- [46:27]
C
Yeah.
- [46:28]
E
And then there's like, the World Cup, I guess, is also talking about bringing in more like, ref cams and things like this. It's just like sports in general is such a heavily. Heavily surveilled and. And recorded and tracked space anyway. If you're going to go to a game you're going to be. It's like one of the most surreal places you can be as an NFL game or a stadium like that. So I think it's just, it's an interesting conversation to be had about like, oh my God, there's, there's AI cameras in here now. And it's like, well, yes and no. Like they were here already and they're in every other sport. You're just hearing about it more, I think, because baseball does actually lend itself to like some pretty funny clips on social media. So it makes sense that a lot of these, these calls are going super viral and that's how we hear about it. But I think the more like demure, I guess sports like tennis, it's like they're just not complaining about it and there's no chance to challenge it. So I think that's like Jason said, that's a big element of it. It's adding something to it. I think is. Is rather than taking away another part of it.
- [47:32]
D
I'm not going to pretend to fully know that much about soccer, but I know that they added var. So there's video assisted review and as Joseph said, it was like, I believe for offsides, but then they also do it for like goals. Where did the ball fully cross the goal line? And I know that that has been pretty controversial in some ways because there'll be like this thrilling moment and then it'll be called the goal on the field and it will be taken away.
- [48:00]
C
Right.
- [48:01]
D
And I think that there's been some. Again, don't write. I know, I don't know all the specifics, but it's just like, I think there's been some backlash where they're like, we should get rid of this because it's like ruining the game to some way.
- [48:16]
C
It's the same argument basically. And I think where a lot of people would fall down on is the way it currently works in football, which is that it does assist the refs and the linesmen. Like it does not replace them. They do still make the final call, but where the computer is like pretty sure it's there and it's pretty accurate. The ref would be insane, obviously, to go against that.
- [48:44]
D
Yeah, one thing that I, I was worried about this because I knew this was coming. They announced that this was coming like over a year ago. And so I was like, oh, next year this will be better. When they like calls went against the Orioles last year. But I was worried that it would have that effect like it does in soccer where I'm like, oh, something exciting happened. Then they take it away and you're kind of like, feel like you have been. Something's been stolen from you as a fan or whatever. But I think watching it on tv, because the box is already there, you can see whether a pitch is a ball or a strike basically immediately. And so in my head I'm like, they should challenge that. They should challenge that. And so I don't get, like, excited when the umpire makes a wrong call. Like, oh, that was called the strikeout. I'm like, that was a ball he should challenge. Like, it's kind of like a. In. In the moment. I'm. I sort of am already thinking like, oh, they should challenge this. It's going to get changed. And then it happens so quickly that it doesn't. It takes like five seconds. And so it doesn't really impede the flow of the game. And I think that that's, like, pretty critical because in, like, football, American football, and then also baseball does have challenges on, like, judgment calls in the field. They've had that for a while. It's like all the umpires or referees go and, like, they hug each other and they look at the video screen and then, like, they do a commercial break and then like five hours later, they start playing again. And it's like, that's super annoying.
- [50:16]
C
Yeah. Yeah. With tennis, when I used to watch a lot of Wimbledon, it would always be, okay, let's see it on the big screen. And then as the ball was going towards the line, the crowd, all in unison. Ah, it's slightly longer than five seconds, I seem to remember. But, yeah, it's a fun part of it as well. All right, we'll leave that there. If you are listening to the free version of the podcast, I'll now play us out. But if you are a paying 404 media subscriber, we're going to talk about a very bizarre sex app that Sam tried out. I think Jason tried it out as well. No specifics here. You have to listen to that in the next section. You can subscribe and gain access to that content at 404 Media co. As a reminder, 404 Media is journalist founded and supported by subscribers. If you do wish to subscribe to 404 Media and directly support our work, please go to 404 Media co. You'll get unlimited access to our articles and an ad free version of this podcast. You also get to listen to the subscribers only section where we talk about a bonus story each week. This podcast is made in partnership with Kaleidoscope and Alyssa Midcal. Another way to support us is by leaving a five star rating and review for the podcast. That stuff really helps us out. This has been 404 Media. We'll see you again next week.
- [51:50]
E
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