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- [00:00]
Imani Thompson
In allyship. People believe that visibility does some type of service to people. That doesn't necessarily protect you or change your material conditions, but it does make you like super visible to people who are harming you or who seek to harm you. It's not protection.
- [00:18]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
Hello and welcome to the four four Media Podcast. Four four Media is a journalist founded company and needs your support. To subscribe, go to Four4Media Co as well as bonus content every single week. Subscribers also get access to additional episodes where we respond to their best comments. Gain access to that content at 404 MediaCo. This week I'm thrilled to be joined by Imani Thompson. Imani is a digital security trainer and host of a series of events called Cash Me Outside. Love that name so much where she and partner organizations sometimes help people understand their personal security, divest from big tech platforms and generally learn how to be more safe online, which is so important right now. Imani hello. Hi. Thank you for being here. 44 Readers probably know Emani already from our contributor Janice Rose's recent story. Janice went to one of your events in Ridgewood called 44 deadname not found. Again, amazing name, not related to 44 media but such a good how could you resist? And that was like a digital self defense workshop and you were specifically there to teach trans people how to find and remove their sensitive information from the Internet. Janice said the Vibe is giving OPSEC Rave happy hour. Just incredible, incredible stuff. I would love to hear just like how you got into this to begin with and a bit about your background and why you became interested in the surveillance and OPSEC world to start with. Sure.
- [01:49]
Imani Thompson
So growing up I was a fan girl. I was like a One Direction Stan on Tumblr which I think inform our relationship to surveillance and parasocial dynamics in the Internet. I also have parents who worked in the federal government and talked about surveillance a lot like over dinner. And I studied bioethics in school and it was around Cambridge Analytica so I studied public policy and bioethics and rhetoric and after I finished school I ended up being some kind of privacy analyst or compliance officer or help desk, something in all of my roles. And I kind of saw gaps in my social circles as far as what I thought was common knowledge due to that background and what my friends understood technology and surveillance operate like. But they also didn't really care to encrypt their stuff. So I kind of started being like let's grab drinks. And I'm like, well I have you all here, open your phones, let's go to Settings and that evolved into like pre Games for Dyke March where we did digital security. Teach ins and everyone open your phone and go to settings and do this and that. Let's set up advanced data protection for people who are nervous about going to Pride. Especially after Trump's reelection and over the course of the year it kind of devolved. Not devolved, but evolved further into like raves and parties. From more informal gatherings to like more social forward events.
- [03:18]
Sponsor/Ad voice
I love that.
- [03:19]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
I love the evolution of a Tumblr One Direction Stan to a digital security researcher and trained.
- [03:27]
Imani Thompson
I hope, if you're listening, I'm sure, hit me up.
- [03:30]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
I mean, One Direction stands are working for the CIA 100%. I was never into One Direction. I was never One Direction fangirl. But you had mentioned just the way that One Direction fangirls were hacking into airports security cameras. I didn't realize that was a thing.
- [03:46]
Imani Thompson
Yeah, I mean, you see so many stories about like little boys hacking from Roblox or whatever, but I find it so much more interesting young women hacking to like look at their faves, sit in a lobby somewhere and there's no news coverage. They don't call these young girls geniuses. I don't think they're getting recruited to the CIA. So I just wonder where they are now and how they learned that they
- [04:10]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
are doing great service for their friends. Stalking exes.
- [04:13]
Imani Thompson
They're cheating boyfriends, I'm sure.
- [04:14]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
Yeah, exactly. You've been hosting these events. You formalized, you know, like you said, it evolved into these more formalized events. It's still, it's pretty, you know, I don't want to make it sound like it was like suddenly corporatized, but it was like you're actually like hosting these events on purpose for people to come and do these workshops that are free for people to just show up to usually queer bars in Brooklyn and in Ridgewood and in Queens to sit down and say, okay, now open your phones, now open your settings and let's look at what's actually going on with your phone and going on with what the Internet knows about you, which these days is so much, I guess. What was your first workshop like? Like, did you expect people to show up? Like, what kind of. What was the theme?
- [04:55]
Imani Thompson
The first workshop I ever did was, I think just general digital security ahead of pride. I did two back to back. I did one like at May and then one in June last year. And they're both pretty much, let's go through your settings. Let me explain to you what encryption is. And we'll go step by step through this. And the first one was literally that. The second one was we were talking about, should you bring your phone to Pride? Is it okay to do that? Is it safe to do that? What's the stingray? Are they real? What happens if you don't have your phone? So we made friendship bracelets that had like emergency contact numbers on the beads and lawyers phone numbers and we like made a bunch, exchanged them and, and then people were like, when are you doing this again? When are you doing this again? But people, the same people wanted to come again, but they already learned the thing. So we started doing them around. Interacting with ICE when there was very heightened ICE activity in the neighborhood where I show people how to use the shortcuts app on an iPhone to make a little automation, to say your rights out loud in different languages or to make a sloop warning to send out to contacts. So I think it's like one digital security but also demystifying technology. Something that worries me a lot is AI psychosis. And I think that that comes from people mystifying technology and I think also just paranoia and then pointing to the wrong things and ending up in rabbit holes also comes from not having literacy around technology to fill those gaps. So the more agency and comfort people have, I think the better off we are. And that can be from having a body double at the bar or having someone tell you that terminal's not that scary actually, or helping you dox yourself or showing you scripting and automations in a really simple way. And then people get more creative and excited about it to do things on their own later and show their friends. So that's kind of the recurring theme throughout all of them, like agency autonomy around technology instead of divesting and running from it or shaking your fist at the sky. But usually the focus is digital security because people are concerned about that for the first time lately.
- [07:08]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Like you said, it's been an issue for a long time, but I think now it's so much more. Yeah, it's so much more of a high profile concern and it's very immediate concern. Especially like you said with ICE rates happening in your neighborhood. It's like what do they know about me? What can they see about me from just like a Google search? And it's usually a lot I would love to get into just like how one self doxes because that's I don't think, I mean I haven't heard the term being used as like I'm gonna actually like stalk myself Basically is kind of what you're doing. I've done that before just to make sure like my stuff is locked down. And it is a weird process. But yeah, if you want to just walk us through like what is, what is a self doxing exercise typically.
- [07:52]
Imani Thompson
Sure. So we, I mean it's not as in depth as you'd imagine at home at a bar, but I think we get a good starting point. So what we do is we look up all of our pii so personal identifying information like your phone number, your address, past addresses, your full government name, usernames that you use on other platforms or email googling those things, seeing what comes up using different search engines and then doing reverse image searches of ourselves, doing the same for immediate family members too and taking note of all those things and then going to the tools that stalkers and employers use and going to those tools, looking ourselves up and seeing what we find. And then we spend some time, I spent some time explaining what data subject rights are. So the right to correct, amend, delete, to be forgotten. They're called different things in different jurisdictions, but I did an overview over that looks like what that means how to exercise them. So we spent some time like drafting emails to send to these companies asking for the information to be taken down. I showed some tools that give a fill in the blank version of that and how to cite the right rights to have those things deleted. And then we introduced some tools as well that like services that will automate or do it on your behalf. But I thought that it was really important first people to have the agency and literacy to read a privacy policy, to look through the privacy policy and know who to contact to know what to say to them and also how to find the info themselves because like there's mixed feelings about data broker deletion sites and tools and paying for them and there's lack of access. But there were some tools that sponsored memberships for attendees because it was trans day visibility which was awesome and a little bit less labor because I think I found 150 data broker sites with myself on it which would be exhausting to do alone. But it's good to know that you could.
- [09:46]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
Yeah, yeah, you don't because sometimes these, if you can't make it to an event that's sponsored or you can't afford it on your own, they are kind of expensive and it is like it's, it's full time like trying to get this stuff taken down on your own without an actual like service doing it takes forever. It's it's crazy. That's something that I hear a lot from. I read about the adult industry and sex work quite a bit and as you know, and it was something that I'm hearing all the time from sex workers especially. It's like me doing this, like it's paperwork basically. It's like these requests and these emails all the time to these sites that like have my stolen content or have my legal name or like have, you know, my mom's name takes forever. And I know a lot of sex workers pay services to do like takedown requests and also to do like you said, like the proker, the broker stuff which has been really interesting to learn about and to see happening over the years and how it just has become much more of a common thing to have to do because this stuff is everywhere.
- [10:43]
Imani Thompson
And a lot of the things that we find when doing the self doxing exercise are not things that data broker sites are going to be able to find or handle. Like we found deepfakes in CSAM doing this exercise as well. And I think like knowing how to address that legislation's changing pretty rapidly around it. But having up to date information about what you do in those situations by going through legal channels or not are also things that community needs to be able to talk about together and also to not do alone.
- [11:14]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
Yeah, yeah. And I think, yeah, it's. The not alone part is really important because when you're, I mean this is just my experience, like being online. It's like when you're, you see something and you're like, I should do that later, you know, I'll do it later. But yeah, it's going back to like you said, just like sitting down and being like, we're going to do this right now. We're going to open our phones and check it out.
- [11:35]
Imani Thompson
It's a great. All famous lineup of DJs.
- [11:36]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
Exactly. Yeah. We're gonna do it over drinks. It'll be fun, I promise. It's not hard or like, you know, it doesn't have to be miserable. You can just do it with your community. And also just having people around, I mean, do you feel like in those events people are kind of trading information as they're going? They're like, oh, I saw this here, you should check it out.
- [11:58]
Imani Thompson
Yes. I think the one where I saw that the most was actually the de Googling party that we did for Valentine's Day. We had a breakup with Google on Cash Me Outside and Cypr Collective. And like de Googling is not rocket science, but it is Exhausting to move all your stuff over to vet alternatives. And instead of being like, okay, everyone open your laptop. Okay, next step is this. I have like a huge notion guide that I shared and I was like, flag a facilitator down if you have questions. But people just form small groups between their turns DJing because it was open decks this time and just were like, oh, I like this search alternative. Oh, I like this browser. And I really liked that. I thought that was really sick. And people were telling me things about open source tools I had never heard of, which was great. A lot of times I use these things to do things I wouldn't feel like getting around to doing myself at home. So I'm also moving over to Proton and getting my Google Drive taken out on Google takeout with everyone else too. But I was like learning a lot. And then I got to add things like, I really hate there being a designated expert and then everyone else is a student. So I do like for these gatherings to be community building, coalition building, you know.
- [13:17]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
Yeah. In the way that other people know something that somebody else might not.
- [13:20]
Imani Thompson
Yeah. Like my background is privacy, which is a whole different realm from cybersecurity. So when actual technologists pull up, I'm listening, you know?
- [13:30]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
Yeah, for sure. I mean, yeah. And just the community building of it all is so important because your security online is reliant on other people. I think what people maybe don't realize, and Janice touched on this on her piece, and I'm sure this is part of the process also is when there's like a GoFundMe set up or like a cash app handle or Venmo and that gets posted online, it feels private because maybe your real name's not on it or there's not like identifying information on it, but people can still glean a lot of information from these crowdfunding things, which are meant to protect and support people in need, but then end up making you more vulnerable to, you know, people looking for your private information, whether it's like employers or the state or your landlord or your ex. So, yeah, I mean, are people surprised when they find that out?
- [14:26]
Imani Thompson
Usually, yes. I think people kind of post like everyone's business, their own business or someone else's whole life on Instagram story or in a signal group chat or whatever. Because you're like, if I give all this information, you see how these compounding systems of oppression make this person someone deserving of your money. But I don't know if it's true that giving that much information makes people Care more. And it does also make everyone involved targeted. Like, I've been targeted for scams because I repost a lot of GoFundMes or because I've given money to people before and I've had people's like stalkers find them from viral GoFundMe post as well. So I think, like, kind of observing that in an unfortunate circumstance made me more aware of it. But I do think when I tell people these things, they're like. And change their behaviors before something like that happens and makes them realize, which I do appreciate as well. Like, I think people say pii, or personal information or sensitive information, but don't define it. And then everyone's nodding. But behaviors aren't changing because we don't know what that means.
- [15:41]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
Right.
- [15:42]
Imani Thompson
Especially outside of a work context.
- [15:45]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, what kind of like PII are people not thinking ahead about?
- [15:51]
Imani Thompson
The same profile pictures across platforms, the same usernames across platforms. Venmo handles people mutuals on social media, your live location on your Instagram story. Like, those kinds of things are sensitive. And I don't think people consider that. Like, sometimes just from talking about the weather on Twitter, people can figure out where you live or local restaurants or spots, or, like local drama. People can kind of figure out a lot about you. So, like, not just individual data points, but data points that can be combined to identify is something people don't think about. Cause it's all in one feed, right?
- [16:29]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
Yeah, for sure. And I think that is. That's definitely. It's something that I've had to start thinking more and more about, especially when I see it happen to other people. It's like people be identified by. I don't know. It's just like, I'm careful about, like, is the window behind me showing my street? Like, is it showing a specific tree that's only on my street? It feels crazy to think that way sometimes, but people go crazy with this stuff.
- [16:57]
Imani Thompson
There was a lady at a Black Lives matter protest in 2020, and they found her by finding her shirt on Etsy.
- [17:06]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
Oh, my God.
- [17:07]
Imani Thompson
And going to the Etsy seller and then narrowing down who in this town bought this particular shirt off of Etsy. And that's how they found her and came to her house and picked her up. So it's like really like random things that can identify you.
- [17:22]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
I had talked to Kolina Kultai at bellingcat a couple weeks ago for one of these podcasts, and she was talking about how they had found a guy who was running Mr. Deepfakes, which was like the big deepfake site for like non conceptual imagery. And part of how they found where he was moving around in the world was Airbnb reviews. And they could see where he had booked Airbnbs and who had reviewed him as a guest and what hosts he had reviewed. It's like I never leave reviews about anything good or bad for that reason. Cause like I don't know if someone could possibly find, you know, where I am. And that's another thing I think sex workers have have talked about quite a bit and just more people are becoming aware of, like you said with the live location stuff posting on Instagram like a live story. Where you are at the moment is such a big no. Don't do it.
- [18:27]
Sponsor/Ad voice
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- [20:08]
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- [25:29]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
Are people like freaked out by this sort of information when you tell them at these events? I feel like people come to the events, they're kind of already kind of like they're coming with a certain knowledge that they needed it anyway. But is the response like, whoa, I didn't realize how serious this could be.
- [25:45]
Imani Thompson
I think there's already enough alarmists, so I try not to be one. I think the reason why people avoid this education is because a lot of the people like leading conversations around OPSEC are alarmist. So I really avoid that language. I don't present issues without a solution or a way to mitigate it. So I feel like people don't really leave my event scared ever. I, or I hope not, I haven't gotten that feedback.
- [26:13]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
Yeah, 100%. You know, you're here to DJ, to get on the decks, to listen, and also in between things, maybe make some plans to get off of Google, for example. I mean, getting off of Google is something I think a lot more people have been doing recently, especially with the new Google changes. I mean, it is, it feels like you said, it's a very overwhelming process. Google takes over so much of our lives and owns so much of this software that we use every day. So divesting from Google feels like a big one, but it doesn't have to be. So yeah. What is that process like just walking, walking folks through that.
- [26:46]
Imani Thompson
Yeah. So at the breakup with Google party we had for Valentine's Day, we kind of started out with the baseline of people's comfort level with divesting from Google because some people need to use Google workspace for work. Some people don't want that much friction in their lives, what have you. I think like any step people are making is a valuable one. So people can start with switching their browser, their default search engine, their email provider, their cloud storage, and we use Google Takeout. So Google Takeout is a tool to just move your data off of all your emails out of your inbox, your Google Photos, Google Drive, Calendar contacts, everything. You can have those sent to you in zip files within a few hours. And people did that, moved it over to Proton because Proton kind of has an equivalent for most of the major Google tools and their UX is pretty similar too. So we did that. We had people compare different alternatives to the search engines. There are a ton on searchparty, so people can kind of find one that resonates with them. There has to be at least one because there's so many alternatives to Google, especially now that they have this Gemini thing that they're tripling down on. It's becoming less and less usable. So switching your search engines, a good start as well. But there are some people who want like a graphene Pixel phone as well, who are a bit more full throttle with it and they're.
- [28:14]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
It's an intense move.
- [28:15]
Imani Thompson
Yeah, there are a lot of resources for them too. But I think it's cool to all be in the same space doing whatever it is that we want to do because like, whether you're switching over to Proton Drive or getting graphene, it's not something fun, you know, so it's nice to do with good music, a drink, arcade games to play, because it was at Wonderville and to be able to take breaks and to compare notes, to compare tools. So I think that's the self doxxing one and the De Googling party I think are the most fun ones I've done, honestly. We had an intro to Soulseek 1 as well to bring up a Spotify when Spotify was added to the BDS list. Well, actually shortly before, but that was also around Valentine's Day. That one was super fun because I think tools like Soul Seek are scary to people who are used to tech being like handed to them in a little package and being pretty. And Soulseek is beautiful. I'm not calling her ugly, but it is intimidating to use tools like that and to set it up and to navigate it. And I think tools that are open source and that are made by its users are so sick. And there are so many opportunities to engage with other users on Soulseek compared to Spotify, actually, which I didn't know before doing these, we made little chat rooms and we lurked on each other's profiles and through each other's folders, which felt kind of social. So, like there's tech can be fun. I think people are like mourning an Internet that doesn't exist anymore, but it still does. You just have to know how to look for it. And I think cashing outside is also a space for that, for like discovering other channels to engage with others. Using technology as a tool that is pro social.
- [30:04]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
Yeah, I actually wasn't. I wasn't super familiar with Soulseek before and I want to try it out because I, like you said, I do think it is. It's. People are either missing an Internet that never existed or they're too young to remember. When you didn't have everything actually handed to you via like a pretty ui. It's always been this way. It's always been the fact that like Spotify will make you an algorithmic playlist. That's never how, you know, it's never been different. Whereas before the socialness of music was even though it was still on your computer, you were like trading files or legally or, you know, you were looking at each other's like Apple music and like sitting down, like I remember just sitting like on a couch in a dorm room, like looking through each other's libraries of music and just being like, oh, do you want this album? Not endorsing that, but it's. It used to be that, you know, you had to actually put in the effort to collect, to make a collection, to build a collection. And I think now everything is both very slick and like you said before, very like going back to the psychosis stuff. Very mystified the way that I can't. We were just talking earlier about how I can't repair my laptop battery anymore. But this is a machine that does have parts that I do understand. It just. I can't get to them anymore because of the way that these corporations have packaged everything up away from our control. So I think it's really cool to be able to sit down with other people and say we're gonna actually take control back. It's gonna be a different experience. Know, I'm not going to get like a soul seek wrapped probably, but that's okay. I'm not going to get like a proton wrapped, but I don't really need that.
- [31:45]
Imani Thompson
Yeah, I feel like the Spotify wrapped thing kind of like made surveillance cute in this bizarre way. I don't think that was the intent from what I understand of like where wrapped came from, but I feel like prior to rapt existing, the fact all that data was collected. It's like, why, you know, why was that there to begin with? And then I think, like, making it such a social thing to share how heavily Spotify has surveilled our user activity and interests and moods throughout the days and moods throughout the month. Making it like kind of memeable or social proof kind of is nefarious to me. I feel that way about Duolingo too, but I don't want either. I don't want Spotify or Duolingo Duolingo to get me, but I feel like Duolingo is like a master class in dark patterns.
- [32:37]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
Yeah, say more about that because I don't use Duolingo. So what's going on with them?
- [32:42]
Imani Thompson
I mean, like, when I learned what dark patterns were, I was like, oh, so like Duolingo. And everyone looked at me. So crazy. But I feel like when an app uses emotional manipulation or your friends to pressure you into using it, because I think in the social dilemma, they were using like Meta as an example where they're like, oh, your friends are posting. Oh, your friend liked this. You should go and see what they're doing. But Duolingo will be like, duo's gonna kill himself if you don't study French today.
- [33:15]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
Right.
- [33:15]
Imani Thompson
Then he'll start sending your friends and he'll be like, bobby, Bobby noticed you haven't been studying French. You're not listening to Duo. What about Bobby? And I'm like, oh, my God, not Bobby's business after me. And that feels really manipulative to get me to get higher screen time at the end of the day. At the end of the day, it is a game and an app that has ads on it that I'm feeling bullied into using for at least 20 minutes a day. So I think it's interesting that that's considered good marketing. But when Meta does it, it's evil and there should be legislation around it. And I wonder if it's like because of the little owl.
- [33:52]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
Yeah, that damn owl. They anthropomorphized the app enough that people are off guard about it now, I guess.
- [33:58]
Imani Thompson
Yeah. Sometimes they'll change the app logo to him crying or like injured.
- [34:03]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
This is such a. It's a less. It's a lower stakes thing because it's not. I guess. I guess it is. It's kind of the same thing. But I get really frustrated when prompts, like, prompts where you're trying to close out of something. This is speaking of like dark patterns, when you're trying to close out of something or like, there's an error and it will say like, sorry, I'm trying to fix it. And it's like, don't speak to me. Yes.
- [34:26]
Imani Thompson
Really? No, you're not.
- [34:27]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
It's like, no, you're. You're not sorry. You don't have emotions. You are, you know, like Windows operating system. You're not doing the frowny face. Yeah, yeah, the frowny faces. The just like very friendly conversational error messages or like just messages in general. You try kind of close something and it'll be like, see you later. It's like, no, you're not my friend. And I think that's all kind of carried into like chatbots and why we see a lot of the psychosis stuff.
- [34:55]
Imani Thompson
Something I do like is Airlearn is another language learning app. And their marketing tactic is they dox their users on Instagram and then like, make. They'll find their users on Instagram, go through all their pictures, their friends and family, and then like change their ethnicities and then make a copy of their whole networks, Instagrams, but like, make them like from Portugal. And I've been waiting for them to do it to me. Like, they'll spin a wheel and be like, what ethnicity should this person be next? Like, oh, they're Chinese. And then they'll take a random user by spinning a wheel in a random ethnicity and then they'll like, tag them.
- [35:38]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
What to, like, get you into using the app?
- [35:41]
Imani Thompson
No, it's like, it's already existing users. Like, they'll get a big wheel and their little mascots is little like lesbian bear, I think a lesbian cat. A little lesbian cat. And she's blue. And she'll spin a wheel of all of the usernames of their followers and they'll pick one. They'll spin another wheel of all the ethnicities. This is not sponsored. And then they'll be like, okay, here's Sam. We're gonna make her Chinese. And then they'll edit all of your pictures, all of your family members pictures, upload a copy of your Instagram, change the pictures and the contacts to make you in China and all the captions in Chinese. And it's unclear if this is real because people in the comments who are friends with these people or family members will be in disbelief in the comments every time. So that it. I'm like, is this a bit or. I don't know. I love it though, because I feel like that's digital security training kind of like, look how much we can find about you, random person. So I actually really enjoy that, even though that's also evil of them.
- [36:43]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
That's so. Yeah. I mean, it is so. So much of this stuff happens very, like, away from your even, like, conscious use of the apps. So putting it in your face like that.
- [36:54]
Imani Thompson
Yeah.
- [36:54]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
So funny. How do we know the. The cat is a lesbian?
- [36:58]
Imani Thompson
So I'm suspecting that she's a lesbian.
- [37:01]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
Yeah. Because Happy Pride to her, Happy Pride
- [37:05]
Imani Thompson
to air, and also Happy Horror Day to air.
- [37:10]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
So, yeah, it's international for people who are like, what are you talking about? It's International Day of the Sex Worker.
- [37:18]
Imani Thompson
So on the list of ethnicities, one of them is lesbian.
- [37:21]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
Okay.
- [37:22]
Imani Thompson
And I think on, like, Lesbian Visibility Day, people demanded that, like, lesbian. That it land on lesbian. The wheel for someone's new ethnicity.
- [37:32]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
Famous ethnicity.
- [37:34]
Imani Thompson
Yeah. And then they. I think, as an April Fool's joke, they added lesbian as one of the language offerings, but they never actually, like, did it. So I'm like, I feel like whoever's behind this has to be a Chinese lesbian, otherwise I'd be very strange. So my headcanon is that. So that I'm not, like, canceling her, I think.
- [37:53]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
Yeah. I mean, Queen, regardless, love her.
- [37:57]
Imani Thompson
We should get her on the pod.
- [37:59]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
We should get her on the pod.
- [38:01]
Sponsor/Ad voice
Please.
- [38:01]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
If you're listening to this, Come on the pod. Yeah. These examples where it's, like, extremely in your face, I really enjoy because, yeah, the Spotify thing is very insidious. Pornhub used to be, like, a pornhub, like, not wrapped for individuals, but, like, here's all the data we have about our users all over the world, and we'd be like, who's watching what during the Super Bowl? So that. That sort of, like, wrapped thing became, like, acute. Here's all the data that we have on you for other companies too, you know, and people just. They love it. And I. Every time I see one of these, I'm like, you don't realize that this is scary data harvesting.
- [38:35]
Imani Thompson
Yeah. I mean, I also saw a lot of reports and coverage of, like, pornhub trends aligning very closely with marginalized people and, like, rises in legislation harming marginalized people. And then that ends up being the trending categories. I feel like I stopped seeing the wraps around when I started seeing those.
- [38:58]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
They were, like, not good for the brand. Yeah, yeah, we're. We're unearthing some darkness of human nature now, and we're gonna stop.
- [39:06]
Imani Thompson
But I feel like, also, just on pornhub, I feel like sex workers are such resources. And also on the note of Like Sex Workers Day are such great resources for digital security education. I've learned so much about protecting my online identity and fragmenting my online identity from observing sex workers and from hacking, hustling, and from, like, digging through just the relationship between sex work and early Internet and early social media. So much more than I've learned in boot camps or on the job, like working in privacy or cybersecurity, especially today. I want to talk about it. I know that you've written a lot about it.
- [39:46]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
Yeah, for sure. I mean, I definitely. I've learned a ton, so many things from sex workers. But also, especially in the world of security practices and privacy practices online, it's because these problems happen to sex workers first. So they're. You know, it's very famously said they're the canaries in the coal mine. The other half of that, like, anecdote is, like, the canaries die. That's how you know that. That there's something happening. So it's such a harmful creep of surveillance and censorship. Especially speaking of hacking and cussing. They've done some amazing work on censorship online against marginalized communities and sex workers. So it is something that's, like. It's learned over and over the hardest way possible. It's like it's cutting off people from their revenue and cutting off people from security and safety in real life. And I think learning things the hard way is so, so difficult. But they are constantly also just sharing this information with everybody. And no, everyone's like, oh, you know, it's not coming for me. Especially with, like, the age verification stuff. I see that happen a lot. Speaking of, like, protecting your privacy.
- [40:50]
Imani Thompson
And they've been screaming about that for a decade, and now people are listening, and, like, these things are already rolling out, you know?
- [40:57]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
Right. Yeah. It's like, you have to. We wrote a story last week about, you're gonna have to start giving your biometrics to this therapy app. And people are like, oh, my God, what is this? It's like, yeah, we've been talking about this for a minute. It's been something that's coming for you all along. It takes a while. It'll get to you eventually. But unless you start pushing back on, like, the idea that your privacy is meaningless and you don't. You don't have anything to fear from these companies. It's like, you do, actually, and you should be paying attention before it happens to you, because then you're gonna be trying to see your therapist and having to scan your face. I mean, obviously, this all very Much intersects with the work that you're doing with these community based workshops outside of the usual traditional, like you said, the boot camps of the world, or these things where you attend a lecture or you attend some kind of webinar. Those are good, but they also don't usually have the life or death lived experience that a lot of marginalized communities are dealing with. Or even just like people who go to protests or trans people who are surveilled all the time. I think something you said to Janice, and something Janice touched on quite a bit in her piece, was the idea that trans people are so hyper visible because it was a, it was a story. The workshop was around Trans Day of visibility. You know, the idea that trans people's identities are very visible online and off, and also just along with everyone else being collected en masse into these data sets and surveilled in a way that is so much more harsh. So, yeah, I mean, that workshop I think was really interesting and really important in that context especially.
- [42:34]
Imani Thompson
Yes, I think like in allyship, people believe that visibility does some type of service to people. And in 2020, I mean, I'm not trans. I am black though. And in 2020, I just like became like the mascot of a black person for so many people in my life. And people just like wanted to send black people money for no reason in particular. And I'm like, awesome fab. But then to be like highlighting their random black friend on their Instagram story and being like, here's this black person. I know, I'm an ally. Here's their whole life story, here's all their business. And you know, it is really dehumanizing and bizarre. And I feel like sometimes when I would talk to people with different experiences with marginalization, they're like, oh, but like during Black Lives Matter, like, everyone cared about what you were talking about. But yes, but also no. Because with people shoving you to the front just by virtue of your identity or your lived experiences, that doesn't necessarily protect you or change your material conditions, but it does make you like super visible to people who are harming you or who seek to harm you. It's not protection to get visibility. And that's kind of what I was seeing with these bathroom bounty bills. And then also this rise in highlighting random trans people in our lives and telling all their business on social media. It's like, where, where is this protection beyond highlighting that we're happy someone exists and then doing so in a space that's shared with people who want to harm them? I Feel like we. Beyond highlighting, giving us ability, we also need to be protective and be prepared to protect. So that's kind of like what I mean, the distinction between visibility and hypervisibility is. Is there protection accompanying that? Is there intentionality accompanying this visibility? Are they. Are there voices and needs being platformed? Or are you just showing people that they exist?
- [44:30]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
Yeah, yeah. Because otherwise you're just kind of pushing people to the front with no backup. You're just saying, here's a spotlight.
- [44:36]
Imani Thompson
And I feel like I saw that a lot on, like, past movements.
- [44:41]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
Yeah, it all. And it all intersects so, so intrinsically and so deeply. And I think that's, again, it's like, you know, start paying attention to this now because it is. It's not just a trans issue. It's not just a black issue. It's. It's so. It's so much more than that.
- [44:57]
Imani Thompson
And I think, like, trans people also played such a big role in, like, building the Internet as we know it and building the best parts of the Internet as we know it. So I do try to acknowledge that. And also music, like electronic music, DJing, curating music, expanding people's music tastes, music discovery, so highlighting that while also being able to materially give something like, okay, I'm not collecting money for this event, but we can raise money, people can donate to cover your digital cleanup or consulting or for membership with this. So I wanted to highlight that knowledge, the sources of this knowledge, these resources, the music, all the contributions of the trans community, while also like, providing some type of protection to that community, some kind of service to the community as well. And I feel like also, like intergenerationally, like Web1. Trans people have an understanding of the Internet and operating on the Internet that Gen Z doesn't necessarily. So having space for those intergenerational conversations to take place too, around the Internet, Internet safety, existing online. Finding your people online. When I read Chelsea Manning's memoir, something that stuck out to me was like, how big being chronically online played into her formative years because that's where her people were. And that's not something I really thought about until I read it.
- [46:25]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
Yeah, and it's getting so much harder to find your people online. You touched on so much of culture is black culture, trans culture, sex worker culture, and then having that get scraped into by these big tech companies, these things that then violate the privacy and security and safety of those communities is just such an insidious, sickening thing to watch happen every day. But it's constantly happening. So, yeah, I mean, Having education and knowledge about how to protect yourself against that force will keep, you know, keep those communities going and keep them visible in a way that doesn't make them more vulnerable because that is also important. You know, we don't want to just like, scrub ourselves from the Internet and go away forever. It's something that, you know, we. We need people to still exist online and talk to each other online without forking over so much personal information. But it's hard to do. I mean, that's something that I think a lot of people are like, oh, just get offline. You know, just go, just go. And it's like, that's not. It's like saying, just leave the room at this point. It's like, just leave the party.
- [47:33]
Imani Thompson
I mean, it also feels really privileged. I heard a story, I don't remember who to credit for this, but it was like Instagram reel and there was a girl who was hanging out with like one of the divesting entirely from tech, dumb phone Luddite people and his girlfriend. And when it came time to pay for dinner and to get an Uber home, he like looked to her to get out Apple pay and to call the Uber because he had a flip phone. And I feel like it's such like you have to be in a place of privilege to be able to navigate the world because you're either outsourcing that labor elsewhere as far as being able to navigate the world, or you're missing out on building community and coalitions and kinship with people who can't divest entirely from technology. Like, there's so many connections you miss out on and people you're not able to reach. There are people who can't live their lives without a smartphone. You know, it's not a class issue where people who lack access to smartphones, it's like people who have to have one too, right?
- [48:34]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
Yeah, it's job opportunities, connection to other people, connection to healthcare, connection to the family, support their family. Yeah, it's just not an option for so many people. And yeah, it's not an answer to how to protect yourself.
- [48:47]
Imani Thompson
We just need to get more literate. That's really all it is. Learn how to use a computer.
- [48:51]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
You should do a PC building party. Next,
- [48:55]
Imani Thompson
there is a repair workshop in the works. There's this organization that I've been building relationship with that does like laptop repairs, works with the recycling program. And we've been hoarding Raspberry PIs and ipods and Walkmans.
- [49:10]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
Nice.
- [49:10]
Imani Thompson
A little repair workshop. And there's like a free Library of laptops to borrow from the ones that end up getting repaired, which I think is super sick. They're called Fix it with Piggy in the Bronx.
- [49:21]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
Cool. Fix it with Piggy. We'll link them in the show notes. But yeah, we'll stay tuned for the, for the workshop on that. That's so awesome. Yeah. So I will let you go shortly, but one thing that I have been asking guests and putting them on the spot about is asking what gives them hope. This, what you're doing gives me hope. These workshops give me so much hope. Watching these things build into these bigger things give me hope. So what is giving you hope these days?
- [49:47]
Imani Thompson
Honestly, like, I do feel a bit energized every time I host a workshop, every time someone DMs me about, like, the strides they're making with opening GitHub for the first time or getting on terminal or trying an open source tool. Because I feel like when there's more friction in our relationship to technology and connecting with others, and also when there's more like, agency in our relationship with tech, that's really where we can connect with others online and have fun and, like, have the whimsy and real connection that people are nostalgic about is by, like us building tools ourselves and learning how to use them. I know people are hating, but I think the cyber decks sometimes give me hope if people aren't Vicodin them.
- [50:33]
Sponsor/Ad voice
Yeah.
- [50:33]
Imani Thompson
If it's not vibe coded, I'm like, go off, sister. Like, I've seen really cute ones ones. And I think that also, like, is people testing the waters with literacy around technology and having technical skills and repair and like, yes, the girlies are into perma computing. I never thought I'd see the day.
- [50:53]
Sponsor/Ad voice
Yeah.
- [50:53]
Imani Thompson
So, like, that gives me hope. I think, like, the more people are frustrated with tech and their instinct is to learn how it works instead of moving off the grid. I feel like it's so much more pro social and pro humanity. So I am really happy whenever I see that.
- [51:10]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I think the cyberdecks are cool. I don't know. I think they're awesome. I want to make one. We often write about some dark stuff and some bleak things here at 404. So it's always nice to kind of counter that with, like, what is actually happening. That's good and that's cool.
- [51:24]
Imani Thompson
So I love your silly stories.
- [51:26]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
I know they're fun. Yeah, we should be doing more silly stories.
- [51:29]
Imani Thompson
I think of the VR. The VR, like, sex guy thing. Often like that is like, which was
- [51:34]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
still like kind of bleak.
- [51:36]
Imani Thompson
I think of it all the time though.
- [51:38]
Host (possibly a 404 Media journalist)
Yeah, the story about the guy, the AI. They're an AI even I don't know what they were. The just like horrible, horrible state of AR porn right now. So go check that story out. I guess if you want to laugh we will do more silly stories I promise. But for now I will read us out. As a reminder, 404 Media is journalist founded and supported by subscribers. If you wish to subscribe to 404 Media and directly support our work please go to 404 Media co. You get unlimited access to articles and ad free version of this podcast. You also get to listen to subscribers only section. We talk about a bonus story each week. This podcast is produced by Alyssa Midcalf. Leave us a five star rating. That really helps. Thank you so much Imani. Good to see you and thanks for listening.
- [52:21]
Imani Thompson
Let's try it.