A (2:37)

And when they are filming, probably there's this white little light that appears on the side. But again, the point of this article is that there is no light on these ones. You have. Are you able to hit record now to show them?

C (2:53)

Yeah. So there's a button up here on. On the right arm that takes a picture. So I just take a picture. I get a little, like, clicky clacky that tells me. And there's no light. And then if I hold it like I am now, there's like a little noise that says. Tells me that it's recording. But right now, I'm recording my screen. You know, when I send you this video, you can see how disgusting my desk is and all my slacks and stuff like that.

A (3:22)

But we'll do a pov.

C (3:24)

We'll do a pov. Like, here's Jason recording the podcast. But I am recording right now. And you can't tell, obviously.

A (3:31)

Here's all of our confidential business information. Here's all of the innards of 404 Media. Here you go. We're live streaming it on Meta without the light or whatever. Okay. Obviously, people on YouTube could have seen that. If you're an audio listener, which I believe most of you are, I mean, you're not missing much. It's just. There's no light on the glasses, basically. We'll get into the modification, that sort of thing. But I want to hear more about your experience first in that. I mean, I'm looking at them through the camera now. They look like completely ordinary glasses, obviously, when you receive them in the mail. What was that like? Everything looked legit, basically.

C (4:11)

Yeah. I mean, so I have purchased modded hardware before in my Life, most notably PlayStation 1 that had a mod chip added to it. And it was, like. Which let you play pirated games. This was so long ago. So it's outside the statute of limitations.

A (4:30)

I was going to say.

C (4:31)

Yeah. But basically, it's like, I don't know, my neighbor did that, and you soldered, like, a chip onto the inside of it. And, you know, there was not, like, the sheen of. This is a factory product. Whereas this. It came in the original box. It was clear that it had been open because there's, like, a little pull tab, and the pull tab had been taken off. But that was literally the only indication that these glasses had been opened in any way. Like, there is. There's, like, a sticker that comes with it that goes like a sealed thing or something. It's a seal. It's a sticker that is like in the bridge of the nose. And the glasses don't work until you remove that. That was still on there, which I thought was kind of notable. You know, the glasses were very clean. Like there was no indication that they had been altered or touched in any way, shape or form. And they work perfectly fine. Like, you know, they come in a Ray Bans case, which, like this is the glasses case if you're on YouTube and it's also the Charger. And they were in that, like there. There was no real indication that these had been modded in any way, shape or form. And like the, the app didn't notice there. There's like a meta AI app that you have to download and like you have to pair it with your phone and you have to pair it with the app. And there's like no indication of any sort that. That anything had happened to these glasses.

A (5:58)

Yeah. Do you want to swap places for a second? Maybe you want to ask me some questions? Because I came across this originally and then again, you handled more the practical part. I did more the sort of reporting part.

C (6:12)

Yeah. So, I mean, how did you originally find them?

A (6:16)

Yeah, so I got an email, I believe, from a four or four media reader, which, as we've said many times, is where a ton of our tips come from. And I think they said something like, their brother was watching YouTube and they got this weird advert for these modified meta Ray Bans. For some reasons, they went back and they found the link and they sent it to me. And it was basically just a YouTube video where this person was first of all advertising this modification. But he was also basically doxxing his customers where he would say, oh, this is Susan's pair of glasses, this is Dave's pair of glasses, or whatever. And he was saying, I'm going to ship this out, blah, blah, blah, you ordered this variation, that sort of thing. And I don't know, that was interesting for a number of reasons. First, that it's on YouTube, so there's almost like a content moderation thing there ever so slightly. Secondly, the fact that this modification is happening at all and they're apparently works. Of course we bought it to verify, but that was very, very interesting to me that somebody could disable the light in this for a very popular product and then film people without them knowing. And then thirdly, doxxing your customers is pretty strange as well. But that's how we came across it. And, you know, we bought a pair and then sent them to You?

C (7:38)

Yeah, yeah. And they came pretty quickly. Another sort of notable thing is that, like, the way that the glasses work are you record or take photos, and then within the Meta AI app, there's like a glasses tab, and then you import the videos and photos into that app and they go onto your camera roll. And there were maybe like eight or ten photos and videos that were already on the device. And those photos and videos were of the guy modifying them, which was super interesting. And you were able to like glean a little bit of information from it. But like, that gave us a little bit of insight into how he was doing it. Like, he clearly opened up the glasses. Like you can hear power tools going. And it's like in a workshop of some sort of. Do you want to talk a little bit more about that?

A (8:39)

Yeah, it's like, well, it's not a busy workshop, but maybe it's just the guy in there or something. And obviously this is. It's a very limited view. And I remember Sam was editing the article and I open it with a description of this person's in their workshop and they're modifying these glasses. But it was so strange because it wasn't from his point of view. It was from the point of view of the glasses, which have a camera in which he was working on. On his workbench. So it was almost like second person perspective. And Sam had to help me find a way to communicate that to readers. Basically, it was pretty all over the place. But, yeah, he's in there. He's tinkering with some compressed air, something that seems to have the glasses clamped in place as well. But I then also emailed him as well and just asked him, like, what are you actually doing here? I wasn't really expecting him to provide details, but he's basically puncturing the LED light, I think, or the sensor. I'm a little bit unclear on that. I think it's the light, but he's basically using a drill to puncture that so that obviously when you try to turn the light on, it doesn't turn on.

C (9:54)

I saw maybe he was also disconnecting a wire, like the wire that powers the LED or something.

A (10:01)

I think that's what you saw on Reddit. I think that's what you saw.

C (10:03)

That was like a theory that I saw. But it's unclear. It's unclear.

A (10:08)

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, to that point, yeah, I find this and I start writing that. You go away and you find like, oh, people have been talking about this for years and I feel like we knew that, but obviously this was the piece and the time to include it in. But people on Reddit have been complaining, basically, why do I have this light on my Meta ray bans? I want to film people without them knowing. I. I have legitimate cases. Like, I want to film. I'm a lawyer and I want to film people signing documents or something. Okay, whatever. And then some people were just there, like, I want to film hot girls without them knowing.

B (10:45)

It's one of the, it's one of the top. Like when you type into Google and it autocompletes your question. It's one of the first things that autocompletes through is how do I hide or disable the LED light? And there's that. There's the Reddit discussions, which are very common. And then also Meta has addressed this. But I think another indication of how much people want to record people without the LED light turning on is the number of products on Amazon that advertise the ability to do this. You can buy stickers or covers for the LED light. And I mean, to their credit, Meta has made it so if you cover the light, it will not record. But the existence of the product shows that people want to do this very badly.

A (11:36)

Yeah. And I don't know if those covers always work. Like, maybe they do in some cases, maybe they don't in others, but this one definitely worked because he punctured the led and then we got the glasses and we verified it.

B (11:49)

Right?

C (11:50)

Yeah. And that was like a response to this article was like, oh, you can just put black nail polish or like electrical tape or something like that. And as far as we know, that doesn't work. It may have used to have worked, but Meta pushed a patch, I believe, or firmware update that disables the camera if it detects that the light is covered. But yeah, this works. And then I guess, like, I would just also say that this problem is one that is, like, of time immemorial. It's like there's been a long history of people posting creep shots to the Internet, like surreptitious upskirt photos and photos of women taken without their knowledge in public. And like, that's one of the, like. I believe there's some countries that have laws. I think Japan has a law where, like, cameras have to make a noise when you take a picture. And, you know, obviously, like, iPhones do that, but you can disable it in the United States. But I think if you have the sound on it, like, makes it a clicking noise.

A (12:59)

Yeah, I have a, I have An English friend who for some reason she got an iPhone from Japan. So whenever she takes a photo, the camera shutter makes a noise and it's like, can you silence that? That's like really annoying. And she's like, no, I can't. It's mandated in there to stop upskirting photos from Japan. I'm like, oh, okay, cool. Well, don't take photos of me either. But yeah, you're right that it's very similar in that. Well, maybe I'll save these thoughts for when Emmanuel talks about the difference between a phone and a pair of glasses. But yeah, it's very much the same issue where people have recording devices and they want to do it surreptitiously. Basically.

B (13:48)

Yeah.

C (13:48)

Yeah, I feel that. Definitely different. I'm just saying that like other pieces of technology have had this issue before and the solve has usually been like it has to make a noise and I don't know how much that's like actually fixed anything, but it's like a similar, similar sort of issue. So, I mean, I guess we can talk a little bit about the abuses, but Emmanuel just wrote about one of the abuses. So should we save that for, for the second half of the show?

A (14:19)

Yeah, how about we'll take a break here and then when we come back, we'll ask Emanuel about his his own story about meta ray bans and how they are actually being used in pretty weird, horrible situations. We'll be right back after this.

C (14:48)

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A (18:04)

All right. And we are back. Jason, did you. You were in a flow. Did you want to do this one as well or should I take it? He's putting on his glasses so let.

C (18:13)

Me put my glasses on so I can see the screen. I was just trying to flow it back to you. You had a nice run of show in our little documents which I'm recording Right now with these glasses. I'll start though. Meta's Ray Ban glasses users film and harass massage parlor workers. This is a story by Emmanuel. This is something that you were working on in the background for quite some time. Like, I feel like you found this on Instagram and then documented it for like, quite some time. Do you want to describe what's going on here?

B (18:53)

Yeah, I feel like I've said this maybe three weeks in a row now, but I found this, like, most horrible things on the Internet was just served to me via the Instagram reels algorithm. And the videos show first person perspective guy walking into massage parlor, talking to the front desk or to one of the people working in the back and dropping increasingly more obvious hints that he's not just there for a normal massage, he's looking for sex work. So one of the first things they say is, I want a massage, but I only have 15 minutes, which I've come to learn is code for like, I'm here for a happy ending, I want a hand job, or something like that. A lot of the workers at these places, English is not their first language. I think most people probably come in and point at the menu and say, like, I want a 60 minute massage, 90 minute massage. So they don't always understand. And then they become like increasingly more obvious and rude in a lot of cases, and they're like, hey, I'm here for a hand job, I want to tuggy. Tuggy is a word that a lot of these accounts use. And in some cases, I would say maybe most of the cases the workers either laugh it off, totally are confused and just think that they're going in for a normal massage. But there is some cases where the person understands what the person who is recording the video is asking for. And then they kind of get into more details about, like, what is a specific sex act that they want, how much are they willing to pay for it, and so on. I should note that it's not entirely clear in the videos that they ever go through with it. A lot of the times if the worker suggests that they go through with it, the person recording the video says, okay, I'm just gonna go out and get some cash outside of the cash machine and I'll be back. And then the video ends and there's no follow up. So that, to me seems like they kind of just want to make a provocative video and go viral on Instagram, which they definitely do. I found many accounts that do this. The biggest one I saw had over 600,000 followers. Millions of views on every. This is happening all over Instagram, all over TikTok. It's like a bonafide trend. And if you're wondering why would you do this, then I found that several of these accounts, what they do is from their profiles, they link out to pay per view sites where they sell videos which they pitch as like the full uncensored version of what happens after, you know, he comes back with the cash.

A (22:15)

That's what they say it is.

B (22:16)

That's what they say it is. But I've, I've looked at the videos and it's very clearly just random videos pulled probably from tube sites that have nothing to do with, with the, with the video recorder recorded at the, at the massage parlor.

A (22:32)

So to sum that up, I mean it's basically a grift. Like that last piece you said it's a harassment campaign crossed with a grift that's being carried out via meta Ray Ban glasses. And I mean, just in case it wasn't obvious, I think it was. But these are first person perspective videos because they are being filmed by the glasses, obviously. They're then uploaded to Instagram where you see it through a recommendation algorithm or reels and that sort of thing. People view them, they go, oh my God, this is outrageous. Or they find it salacious or something like that. And then the Instagram user directs them to a site where they can buy potentially more of the videos, that sort of thing. Just to clarify, how did you first see it? Like did, did you search out something or did you literally just randomly get served one of these videos on Instagram?

B (23:29)

One day I just, it was just served to me like because it is popular. I got served a video that already had like 1.5 million views and it was just served to me as it was served to other people because it is viral. Right. It's a self reinforcing thing where people stumble on the video. It is provocative. Right. It's like a shocking video. And yeah, it was, I wasn't, I wasn't looking for it. I didn't know it existed until it was served to me. And you know, again, the way that this works is I'm sending it to you guys, I'm clicking on the profile, I'm very clearly engaging with the videos and then it serves me more accounts that are doing this.

A (24:12)

Yeah, when you sent it to us in Slack to show us it was nuts, I was, I was really taken aback.

B (24:20)

It sucks. Like we report many upsetting things in the last few months. We've reported several upsetting things that have happened with meta glasses, obviously seeing that ICE and border patrol agents are wearing them during these raids is just, you know, it's like this is one of the worst things that is happening in this country at the moment. And that's disgusting. Whatever. I don't want to like talk about which, which is worse. It's not a competition. But this is so, like, these are such upsetting videos because they're so mean spirited, right? It's like you have these guys who are trying to make a few bucks exploiting these women who barely speak English, who don't really understand what's going on. It is very clear that they don't know that they're being recorded.

A (25:19)

And.

B (25:22)

What is happening to them, what is being done to them for laughs and for a few bucks is so awfully dangerous for them. I talked to Swan Vancouver, which is a organization that Sam introduced me to that advocates for people who work at massage parlors and sex workers. Which, to be clear, I'm not saying every person in this, in these videos is a sex worker. Some are right. But it's like whether they are or not, it's extremely dangerous for them to be exposed in these videos. And many times it's either the person says where they're recording it, or you can see where they're recording it because they're filming themselves coming in and you can see the sign of the, of the establishment and it's like they might be undocumented or if they're sex workers, you know, there was this awful incident where this shooter targeted a bunch of massage parlors in 2021, which he later said was because of his sexual addiction. Right? So it's just like a very marginalized group of people, one of the most marginalized group of groups of people in the country. And these guys are just like harassing them and exposing them for laughs and they're just extremely cruel. And also it's like, it's interesting because if you scroll back, it's not as if they woke up one day and said, oh, I have an idea, let's just buy the meta glasses and start recording massage parlors. They got the meta glasses first. They made a bunch of videos where they just go into a Best Buy and either they start screaming or they try to go in the back or they harass workers at the store. Like, the idea was, I'm gonna buy these glasses. It makes it easy to record people without them knowing. And I'm going to do wild, awful shit and post it to Instagram and go Viral that way because it's like a very provocative video. And then eventually they realized that these massage parlor videos were hitting the algorithm the right way and then they shifted to making those exclusively.

A (27:36)

Right. I'll come back to the metaglasses thing in a second. But Sam, I was just wondering like, based on what Emmanuel just said there and you know, it targeting, you know, vulnerable groups specifically, I'm just wondering what you make of it because yeah, when Emmanuel sent it to Slack, I think it. I think it took everyone aback.

D (27:56)

Yeah, I mean I don't really have a ton to add to what Emmanuel said. Like that pretty much captures it.

C (28:00)

But.

D (28:02)

Yeah, it sucks. It's very much something that, you know, raids happen all the time of massage parlors. Like cops will go in posing as someone who wants to get a happy ending massage and then arrest the whole entire place. And it ruins lives. Like it destroys whole entire families. You know, that's often like the breadwinner of the family is working a massage parlor. You know, whether or not they're. Again, whether or not they're actually doing any kind of illegal sex work in the place, it can be really dangerous and really scary because they're in there just looking around for and they're just trying to upturn the place. So having this kind of thing on social media feels like, I don't know, like an extension of that. Just like more mocking of someone in a pretty precarious situation. Yeah, I mean we don't want to assume too much about what they are actually doing in these parlors, but it's. They're. He like, he's trying to like entrap them into something that they're obviously not there to do initially. Like they're not advertising it when he walks in. He's trying to talk them into doing something that they don't want to do, which is so up. It reminds me of like, I think Emmanuel wrote about like the, the live streaming of Kensington and it's just. It's like this kind of like rubbernecking with via technology of people who are in bad situations or like the, like the bum fight videos that were really popular for a long time. It's just sad and like pathetic. It's more. It's like I feel like loser behavior could be an Entire beat on 404 Media.

A (29:47)

It basically is. Yeah.

D (29:48)

And it's just, it's loser behavior. Not to mention that he's stealing people's content from. Probably stealing it from like leaked only fans or ripping it off of tube sites and then reselling it. It's just like, get a job. I don't know, like, get a life.

C (30:02)

I think, you know, it's worth mentioning that, like, universally these are Asian owned massage parlors. And like, the comments are like, horrendously racist, like, universally so. And it's like, of course these women's faces are in it. Like, it's just the. The whole thing is like, extremely gross for like, many, many, many different reasons.

A (30:25)

Yeah. Before I get to the meta stuff, Jason, you have something I was gonna say.

C (30:30)

So, like, a few things.

B (30:31)

One.

C (30:33)

This will lead into what Emmanuel is going to talk about now. But like, if you go on Instagram or TikTok and search the meta Ray Bans or like meta glasses or meta AI glasses hashtags, it's like, this is the main thing that people are using these for, at least that is surfacing on these platforms. Not. Not the massage parlor tuggies, although these are like, very viral. But it's like kind of universally what you see there is like, people who don't know that they're being filmed and like pranksters, for lack of a better term, just like jackasses, like, doing stupid shit in public. It's like, I could imagine actually some useful uses of these glasses. And almost all of them have to do with like cooking videos and like DIY videos at home. It is, like, useful to have a POV perspective as a video.

B (31:35)

Kenji, who we all adore. Kenji, the food. The food vlogger who sticks POV video with a GoPro. Like, perfect for him.

C (31:43)

Yeah, yeah. Like, there are reasons why it would be like, nice to have a camera where my eye is. But like, everything that I can think of is like, almost universally, like, I'm filming something I'm doing by myself in my own house. And then the. The other thing is just like, there was another viral video that I saw the other day that was like, on a campus, and it was just a guy harassing women, like, on campus, like, hitting on them, basically. Pe.

A (32:11)

Like, like pickup artist lines.

C (32:13)

Like pickup artist lines. Yes. And then he would like post it and then like, you know, people would find out who the woman was and then they would bother her on Instagram or on Tik Tok. And then, I mean, I saw the woman, like, responded in one of these cases or like, made a video herself and she's like, I was drunk when this video was filmed, first of all. Second of all, like, I had no idea that I was being filmed. And so, I mean, that raises the question of, like, are they using modded Versions of these glasses. Or alternatively, and then I'll throw it back to Emmanuel. It's like meta put a light on these glasses. And then said to the world, like, that's what we're doing. You figure out what this means. Like, it is kind of like fucked up that you put a technology into the world and they're like, here's what we're doing for privacy. Like, we're putting a light on it. And then it's like up to random people, like, on the street, to. To know that and to understand that. And then also, like, there's obviously tons of power dynamics when it's like a pickup artist, like, approaching a drunk college student and like, hitting on her, like she's already being filmed. And then there's like, it's just a tricky situation. And that plays out in some of these massage parlor videos where the women are like, get out. And then, you know, it's like it becomes a whole thing. And it's like, up. But anyways, it's just like there, if you click around on the hash meta Ray Ban hashtag on Instagram or TikTok, like, you'll see lots of, like, really shitty things.

A (33:39)

Because it seems like. And this, it seems like if you upload a video from the glasses, it automatically gets tagged as film by meta Ray Bans, something like that. And that's how you knew these massage parlor videos were from Ray Bans, right?

B (33:55)

Yeah. So it's not actually clear to me how they're getting tagged, but there is an official tag, not like a hashtag, but like a watermark or like something that appears under the title of the username that says Film with Mena glasses. With like, their branding that appeared on most of the videos. But I was also able. These. The main account that I was following that was doing this, it was two guys, and sometimes they would look at each other and you could see that they were wearing the glasses. Sometimes they would walk in to a massage place and they would catch themselves in the mirror, and you can see that they were wearing the glasses and you can see that the light was on. And that didn't really make any difference. It's not like in any of the videos that I saw, somebody said, like, hey, are you recording? Or stop recording me. It just seemed like, here's a weird guy with weird glasses. You know what I mean? It's not at all clear that they know that they're being filmed.

A (34:51)

Right. So do they not know what the light is? And they're puzzled by it? They don't know what the light is and they sort of disregard it. They do know what the light is and they don't feel socially comfortable to ask, are you filming? Like, what? Jason's point was, they've put this technology in the world, but it's not like everybody is aware what this light means. Exactly. We're not all owners of the glasses. Right. So what happened when you asked Merta for comment?

B (35:22)

Yeah. So let's get into that part of it. I am writing a blog. I'm going to file it live to our Slack just so Jason and Sam could see. I already sent it to you.

A (35:36)

The headline I have in the Google Doc, which I know is incorrect, is headline for Emmanuel Peace. LMAO question mark. Because I didn't know what the headline was going to be. So we'll go with that.

B (35:45)

But I think the headline is going to be like, let's see, what did I put down here? What is the difference between glasses and a phone? A helpful guide for meta pr. And the reason I wrote that is. And all of these stories that we talked about, the mod, the ICE raids, this massage parlor video, the case that Joe covered, it's a few months ago now, where somebody added like, facial recognition to the glasses.

A (36:16)

Yeah.

B (36:16)

Every single time we reach out to meta and ask for comment, their response is, what is like, would you write this story if it was filmed with an iPhone? And usually we don't even respond to that. Like, we don't even respect the argument enough to, like, engage with it. In the case of the massage parlors, I was like, yes, unequivocally, yes. Like, I would cover a viral account that was going into massage partners and harassing people with an iPhone. But the argument that they're trying to make is the glasses have a camera, the iPhone has a camera. You can record people with both devices. And if anything, the meta glasses have more respect to people's privacy because there's this LED light. Right. Which the iPhone doesn't have. And there are two very obvious flaws with that argument. The first is if I'm walking down the street and I want to film something, I have to reach into my pocket, open the camera app, start recording and hold my phone up to record someone. This awkward gesture that we have all come to recognize and see all the time. Right. Like, how many videos have you seen online of two people yelling at each other, holding their iPhones up, recording each other? You know what I mean? Like, how many times have you walked down the street, somebody filming a fight, filming an argument, filming a car Accident, whatever.

A (37:50)

They're just like a clear visual indicator.

B (37:52)

It's one of the defining gestures of, like, the century is like a person holding up their iPhone to record someone. And we all. It's signaled very clearly. You have to make a gesture to do it. There's no light. But it's like if you're using a camera, you have to pull out the camera, right? It's like that is the recording light. You know, if you're holding a camera with a giant lens, you know that you're being filmed.

A (38:22)

And just to add on that, I feel that even when iPhones and smartphones came out initially, you know, for the first time, people are getting the iPhone 3G or whatever, and someone's holding it like this directly in someone's face. It's unambiguous.

B (38:40)

It's like, what are you doing? Even if you don't know you're being recorded, you're like, what? What are you doing to me?

A (38:45)

Right? But if you did ask the question, hey, are you recording me? It's almost a rhetorical, facetious question, because obviously you're recording me. Get the fuck out of my face. But that is not the case with the glasses, is what you're getting, because.

B (38:56)

They'Re on there by default. There is no gesture like the entire. Even if you look at the value proposition from a totally innocuous perspective, it's that the camera is already out and looking at the thing that you're looking at, and all you have to do is tap it and boom, you're recording. Like, that is. That is the point of the camera in the glasses. So that's one part of it. The other part of it, which we've all alluded to, unless Jason takes issue with it because he lives in, you know, influencer land, is like, nobody knows what the fuck these are, okay? It's like nobody knows what these weird, weird, stupid glasses are. The iPhone is one, if not the most widely adopted electronic or gadget in the world, and it's been around for almost 20 years. It's like the smart devices are common in rural parts of Africa. You know what I mean? It's just like, places where there's no computers, people have smartphones. It's a very well understood device globally, and people have them, and they know that they have cameras, and they know how that works. People have no idea what these glasses are. And that's why I think when you walk into a massage parlor with the light on, people don't know what it is. And then again, there's this power dynamic where it's like somebody just walked into your store with a light in their glasses. You don't feel comfortable immediately questioning what they are or how they're dressed or what's in their face. You know, it's like. It's a completely. The idea that a camera and a phone that someone is holding up and a camera that is embedded in your glasses are the same thing. It's like. It's nonsensical. Like, I can imagine 20 years from now, if these become massively popular, you know, and everybody has them and everybody's talking about it and everybody's recording, then it's like, yeah, maybe that's the case. And if that's the case, maybe in that future, we're not writing those stories. But that is 100% not what is happening now. We are writing these stories so people know what is happening. You know what I mean? So people know that it's like if they're at a party and somebody's hitting on them very aggressively and there's a light in his glasses, it's like, hey, he might be posting you to the Internet. If you work at a massage parlor and somebody's walking in and proposition positioning you for sex, it's like, that is really dangerous, and you should know about it. And that's the reason we write the stories. And I find their line of arguments so insulting to people's intelligence. It's just like. It's not. It's laughable. It's a laughable argument. It makes me super mad that this is the strategy that they picked to deal with what is, I hope internally is like, a massive PR crisis, you know, because it's like, the only reason that these glasses make the news is when somebody does something awful.

C (42:01)

You know, this is to say nothing of the fact that they're being used by cops, like, which we have talked about before. It's like, the people who are, like, interested in this are, like, annoying influencers and law enforcement and, like, a. And you're a H vac guy.

A (42:18)

Not to put that guy on the spot. I'm sure he did a great job.

C (42:22)

I mean, the other thing I'll say, though, is, like, glass holes became a thing with Google Glass, which you do mention in your piece. And, like, we kind of shunned glass holes. Some. Some people were banned from wearing, like, Google Glass in bars and things like that. And I guess I'd say, like, if you were wearing a Vision Pro, for example, it's like this gigantic thing that you strap on your face. But with these, like, you can identify them, of course, and they do have the light on. But these are Wayfarers. Like, they're design. They are designed to look exactly like other historic, iconic glasses. Sunglasses, regular glasses. Like, they have an Oakley version as well. It's like they're trying to blend in in a way that I think maybe the technology would not have allowed with Google Glass because it was, like, bulky and weird. But I think that there's something to that as well, where it's like you can kind of wear these and, like, be sort of camouflaged. Whereas, like, if you strap a GoPro to your head, like, people will know that you have a GoPro strapped to your head.

A (43:33)

Yeah. And you bring up the GoPro example specifically, which is great because I can't remember if I brought it up or whether Meta PR brought it up, but when I did that first one about the. The students marrying the Ray Ban glasses with facial recognition tech to dox people, the argument came up in our emails, like, well, would you cover this if it was a GoPro on somebody's face? And it's like, probably, but that's not surreptitious. It's very obvious. If someone has a fucking GoPro on their forehead and they're walking around, the entire point of these glasses is that they are supposed to look normal. It's like Facebook has its cake and eat it too. It wants it to be an exceptional, interesting technology, but it also wants it to be completely normal and blended into the background. It's like, you can't have that. It is an exceptional technology in that it's not normal. It's not normal to have a camera on your face the entire time. And they're trying to have both.

B (44:25)

You know, in the recent presentation about this latest model of the Metaglasses, all Mark Zuckerberg talks about is that for 10 years they worked to miniaturize the technology in order to make it seamless. It is literally the point of the device is to make it like a seamless computer interface that sits on your face. And that's what people have been talking about with AR forever. If you listen to Palmer Luckey back when he was working at Facebook and he was working on VR and ar, that's again, all he talked about is we need to shrink the technology to make it small enough that it fits into your glasses that you're not even thinking about it. And obviously that has an appeal. Like, if we're in some future where I have like a brain computer interface and I can just Google things seamlessly and so on. I mean, that's cool, I guess. But again, in reality, when we see how people are using it, they're using it to harass and abuse people.

C (45:26)

Well, that is cool. But I think that's important point that you made because it's like one Google Glass had like an AR display, and so there was an aspect to it where it was like, you're talking to me, but like, what are you actually looking at? And like, are you looking up information about me? Like, what is going on? These don't have an AR display at the moment, although I believe that's the plan. That's the plan. And it's like Mark Zuckerberg has talked about it being like a super intelligence on your face, as you said. And so it is like designed and it already has like AI capabilities. Like you can talk to meta AI through it and stuff. And so, I mean, another thing to think about is like, like AirPods and like earbud. Earbuds and stuff like that. Like, you go around life and it's like if you're talking to someone who has an like AirPod in, you're like, huh, that's weird. They're like, kind of rude, but they're probably listening to music. But they could very well just be like getting talking points from an AI buddy and you have like, no idea what's going on. And like, that is like the. That is like the plan here is this is going to be like an AI assistant on your face. And then when you're interacting with someone like this, like, are you interacting with them? Are they recording you? Like, are they getting like talking points from an AI? Like, are they facial recognizing you? Like, what is going on? And I think that that is like another way that this differs a little bit from a phone. And the last thing that I'll say on this is that, like, I feel like when you pull out your phone or a camera or whatever, it. In most cases, unless you have like a strap of some sort, it like takes your hands out of the equation. It's like you're using your hands for something. And I think this, where it's like strapped to your face and you still have total use of your hands. It's like it doesn't have like the disabling effect of like, oh, I'm doing this is what I'm doing. Like, what I'm doing is I am filming you with my. I'm using my hands and I'm filming you, or I'm taking a picture Whereas here it's like you can start filming and you can continue filming and you can do whatever the you want with your hands. You can go punch someone and watch them like through POV in your glasses. And I think that that is like an actual, like, difference. I think that that is like a. That's kind of like why cops are interested in it. And like all that is that it's like a. It's like can film you while you are doing something, whereas with a phone, it's like you are filming. That's the thing that you're doing. You're not doing like another thing on top of that.

A (48:03)

Yeah.

C (48:03)

Does that make any sense?

A (48:04)

Yeah, yeah, totally. With the AirPods one, I think there's just always a societal shift whenever there's a new piece of technology. Like when AirPods first came out, like, that was weird to people, right? Or wireless earbuds in general. People didn't really understand that. I don't know if this was a myth or not, but when jogging became popular in the 20th century, cops would stop joggers and be like, what are you doing? You're running away from something. No, no, I'm on a jog. I can't. That's just something I read on the Internet and it's burrowed into my head, but it reminds me of that. And yeah, same with, I don't know, contactless systems in cars or the AirPods or something like that. There's going to be societal shift. I think the last question is, do you think there's going to be a point where I can go outside wearing my PlayStation virtual reality headset and I'll be socially accepted?

B (48:59)

You could do it now if you want to be cool.

A (49:01)

No, I think I'll get punched in the face.

C (49:03)

I socially accept you. I feel attacked this entire conversation though, because I'm wearing them.

A (49:10)

There was a good bit when Emmanuel said those stupid piece of shit glasses and Jason just like slowly just adjusts.

B (49:19)

I said this on btb. We don't have to get into it, but I do wonder how long the Ray Ban brand could have put up with this.

A (49:26)

Right?

B (49:26)

It just seems like a disaster.

A (49:28)

It's clear. I mean, I'm speculating, but to me it's clear. The deal is Meta handles the PR for sure.

B (49:36)

I mean, they threw us to Meta several times, right?

A (49:39)

Ray Ban doesn't want anything to do with it. When a journalist comes knocking, Meta has to handle it. And I imagine that's why they're so particular about it.

C (49:49)

I mean, I do wonder, though, Like, I think it's made Ray Bans, like, incredibly uncool, as you said in your behind the Blog. And you know, Wayfarers have been traditionally considered just like these timeless sunglasses or whatever. But I do wonder if it's been a net positive or negative for Ray Bans, which is like, sucks to say because I think that these are so shitty and stupid, but like, people are buying them. They're like, is a, you know, kind of like, oh, look at this crazy technology aspect to it for like this really old brand, etc. Like, I don't know if any of you have like, any thoughts on whether, like, how this is going for Ray Bans. I. I can only guess, but like, I don't know. I feel like people are buying these. Yeah, but maybe not tbd.

B (50:44)

I think TBD on how, how it shakes out. I don't see them. I've seen literally one from Sean the H Vac guy, shout out to Airmen when they begin.

A (50:54)

Now. Whoa, whoa, whoa.

B (50:55)

Okay, okay. I don't think he's on the show.

C (50:57)

They sold 2 million pairs according to the Verge as of February, which I don't know. I don't know if that's a lot or not.

A (51:07)

Sounds like a lot, but yeah, I don't know how much they're projecting. All right, we'll leave that there. If you're listening to the free version of the podcast, I'll now play us out. But if you are a paying 404 media subscriber, we're going to talk about how the future of advertising is probably basically AI generated ads personalised directly at you, maybe with your face or your favorite football or baseball team or whatever. And we're already seeing signs of it. You can subscribe and gain access to that content at 404 Media co. As a reminder, 404 Media is journalist, founded and supported by subscribers. If you do wish to subscribe to 404 Media and directly support our work, please go to 404 Media co. You'll get unlimited access to our articles and an ad free version of this podcast. You also get to listen to the subscribers only section where we talk about a bonus story each week and early access to our new interview episodes. This podcast is made in partnership with Kaleidoscope. Another way to support us is by leaving a five star rating and review for a podcast. That stuff really helps us out. This has been 404 Media. We'll see you again next week.