Host of 404 Media Podcast (4:10)

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's definitely, it's not a far flung issue and it never has been. But you know, I think more than ever, many more journalists who maybe weren't like security aware before, probably including myself, I probably am more security aware than a lot of just like members of the public who aren't journalists. But even among like journalists, it's like, there's definitely like a gradation of like, Joseph Cox is probably the extreme end of like most secure journalists. And I'm probably somewhere in the middle, but it's, you know, it's, it's dependent on like the things you cover. I actually hadn't heard of Danger Zone. Check that out. It's definitely something that I need to get up on. And we used SecureDrop at Vice quite a bit. And I think if you're not familiar with SecureDrop, it's actually like a physical thing that you have to go log onto, you have to get access to in a physical space. So it's installed in the office. So I just remember Lorenzo Francesca Bickrai, who used to work with us at Vice, was the secure job keeper. So yeah, I think I usually need a refresher or to get up to date and up to speed using Freedom of Press's tools in my work too, because I think, I don't know, I'm like somewhere in the middle of the threat model from extreme to least extreme. But who knows? Honestly, it's better to be safe than sorry. Yeah. So as we just talked about, this has been something that is more and more pressing and, like, urgent for journalists in the US Especially under this administration. And some of the attacks that we've seen against journalists here in the States. Are there digital and security practices that journalists are using or that have used for years that normal people in the US like people who aren't journalists, should be implementing? Because at this point, if you're at a protest, if you're just walking down the street in a lot of cities in the US you could get your phone taken from you, you could be questioned. You know, it's. It's something where it's a. Feels like a threat to a lot more people than it ever was before. It's not just like you're a journalist, you know, doing a sensitive investigation. You're just someone who's like, recording the police within your right, and you could be at risk of, like, being targeted and having your devices taken away or whatever it is. So are there things that average people should be doing that they're not? Like, what are you seeing in the, in the landscape right now?

Harlow Holmes (6:46)

Yeah. So I would say that for any person, even if you are a journalist and you're, you know, just like being a citizen today as we are, just situational awareness, I think, goes a long way. And that might not be something that people are used to practicing, especially like, you know, where phones are concerned. If a phone is seized, you definitely do want to make sure that people have an answer to the question, am I using like a really, like, fantastic, you know, like, complex passcode, which is really great in the event that your phone enters into, you know, like some sort of, like, computer assisted, you know, like, reconnaissance type of situation where there are tools that law enforcement may use in order to extract data from your phone. Versus do I want to make sure that when I'm walking out in the streets and there might be chaos that I can really, really quickly open up my phone, like with my face, with my fingerprint, or with like, you know, like, I don't know, six little digits, like 0,000 or something like that in order to open it up. And neither of these answers are correct, really. Like, one of them is, like, correct in terms of extraction devices. Another one is correct in terms of keeping yourself as safe as possible and as nimble as possible when, you know, your situation changes on a dime. And instead of just being like a person going to the grocery store, you have to kick into citizen journalism mode and so finding that sweet spot that makes sense for you for where you are, and also knowing that that's negotiable, because if I were a resident of Minneapolis, you know, like, my calculus would be different than I feel in Brooklyn, you know, and so all of these things, or just like, knowing exactly, like, where the levers are that you need to push and pull, where the toggles that you need to switch in order to make those own calculations for yourself, is something that. It's, like, so boring. It's so boring. But it is something that people might want to have to think about. And also, this isn't the first time that we've thought about what it means to participate in democracy, what it means to participate in holding on dearly to your First Amendment rights as a citizenry. And so let's all, like, you know, think back to what it was like, in, you know, like, 2020, in 2016. Right. These are all moments where we have felt that, and it's just about remembering.

Host of 404 Media Podcast (9:39)

Yeah, I mean, I'm definitely getting a lot of, like, 2020 flashbacks as far as, you know. That's just like, refreshers on, like, your rights at a protest, your right to film the police, your digital safety when you're out. Not even just like, at a protest or filming a protest, but just, you know, going through your day. And it's definitely something that I also need the reminder of, too. It's like, your digital security practices aren't fixed for your life. It's like, you. You don't have to just, like, set your PIN and never change it. You don't have to, like, set your password, never change it. You can maybe. And I think this is a really good point that you made. It's. You can say, I need to be able to get. I need to prioritize getting into my phone very quickly, and maybe that is my fingerprint in this particular day or situation or errand that I'm running, whatever it is, versus, you know, not wanting authorities to be able to use your fingerprint against you and.

Harlow Holmes (10:37)

Because they will.

Host of 404 Media Podcast (10:38)

Yeah, because they will. And they can. They legally can.

Harlow Holmes (10:41)

Or.

Host of 404 Media Podcast (10:42)

Which is such a. I mean, I think when I first learned that, I was like, that's a really wild situation.

Harlow Holmes (10:47)

Well, so I'm. I'm not a lawyer, but actually highly recommend going to people like Jen Nelson at Reporters Committee for Free Press. Right. Where she makes the very, very clear and kind of dystopian distinction between, like, there is definitely precedent that, you know, biometrics can be sought, like, specifically, like, within A warrant, like we've seen in, you know, like the Washington Post example of just like, you know, two weeks ago. But the law has always been, like, you know, kind of like shifting on whether or not that's in breach of our constitutional rights. Passcode, however, that is. But the thing is, is that in the moment, the damage will already have been done whether or not testimony of that kind can be put compelled out of you. Like, that is for a court to decide. But when you're on the street, there's no one to arbitrate that for you. And so you might as well consider. And we also now have increasingly more precedent where there's, like, it feels like, you know, that ship has sailed. You. You should consider biometrics as being something that can be compelled out of you. And so in which case, go through the passcode. And so in which case, one of the things that we would love people to be aware of is one, if you don't want to use biometrics, okay, don't. But, like, please don't make it like a stupid passcode that's just easily breakable. Right? Because, you know, because that's another type of damage that you cannot contain at all. But know that at least, like, you know, on all of our various devices, there are gestures that you can learn with. And within, like, under 10 seconds, if not less, you can kind of toggle between, I'm, you know, like, happy strolling in biometrics mode, walking the dog, and now I fear for my safety and I fear for, like, you know, my possession of my. My devices. And so now I'm going to wipe biometrics out of the secure enclave, like the local hardware so it's no longer accessible. And that passcode needs to be introduced again in order to further interrogate a device. And that's not 100% perfect because, you know, we're still looking at a state where the phone has been unlocked, right? So there is a certain amount of information that can be taken out of the device, but depending on the device that you have, you know, you still have more of a fighting chance.

Host of 404 Media Podcast (13:22)

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, that's. And I think that's something that's really interesting and people should know is just like, you can. You can actually make that switch on the fly.

Harlow Holmes (13:31)

I mean, you can also power it off, too. I mean, the same gesture like on a typical iPhone, actually, the same gesture that will clear out your biometrics is one that will power off your phone, and that brings you to the state where, even better, than having a, you know, non biometrically unlockable phone. You're bringing it back to what's called the BFU or like the before unlock state, which means that it is entirely encrypted. Absolutely everything is encrypted with like, you know, some little exceptions, but they're like trivial in this case. And that even gives you more protection. But that said, these are the trade offs. It's like, okay, like, do I want to turn my phone completely off or do I actually need this phone to film this right now? So in which case you want like biometrics off and then you just like swipe to the right and you put your, you know, you take your camera out, you know, or whatever and like, you know, these are the trade offs that you have to make.

Host of 404 Media Podcast (14:24)

Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's definitely especially filming and being at protests. And in 2020, 2021, it was something that I think a lot more people were thinking about more seriously was, do I leave my phone home? Do I trade off that security and safety of having my phone with me in case I. In case something goes down and I need to record or. Or if I need to meet up with the people that I'm with for safety reasons, I might not be able to just head home at the end of the day without my phone. I might need to link up with these people later and make sure we're all good. Or you're getting information in real time on WhatsApp or Signal or something.

Harlow Holmes (15:02)

Yes, yeah. Or in your various groups.

Host of 404 Media Podcast (15:04)

Yeah. So it just felt like such a fraught decision to have to make, whether or not to leave the phone home or to bring it. I think most people probably brought it because we are so attached. Yeah, a lot of people do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that kind of brings me to something else that I heard you say on the EFF's how to fix the Internet podcast, which is such a good podcast, and it was a really good conversation about just this topic in general. But you mentioned that the attitudes around digital security and protections are actually very political and they vary between countries and cultures.

Harlow Holmes (15:40)

Yeah.

Host of 404 Media Podcast (15:41)

Can you elaborate on that a little more?

Harlow Holmes (15:45)

Yeah, I mean, I strongly believe that. And also, like, my views on that are starting to not evolve, but also like, just starting to see more of, like, a historicity around these particular theories. And there are, like, beliefs or attitudes held by, like, certain, you know, like, cultures that have definitely evolved in recent years in ways that are like, incredibly impressive as well. But ultimately it comes to, you know, like, how optimistic or pessimistic people are using, you know, the technologies that we pretty much all have in the face of the political climate that is their lived reality. And so that's really, really fascinating. And so, you know, I would say like, maybe, you know, like 10 years ago there were a number of folks in Central and Eastern Europe who might have felt really, really disenfranchised by technology because they did not necessarily know like, you know, who was in control of building it. And they didn't have any say in like, what that meant for them as people were incredibly like surprised by the extent to which their data had been like taken from them and used, you know, like, against them and stuff like that. But now I see a lot of like kind of optimism, especially in places where there's more like change in government that just like, on the whole gives people more, more hope. Also this doesn't have to do with like Central and Eastern Europe in particular, but like, there is a really, really interesting like, recharge of, you know, open source software, Linux based software and stuff within the European Union that has to do with like, you know, clawing back their data from, you know, the big giants who have hegemony or who have like this hegemony in the United States. And in literally like the past year and a half we've seen the persistent threat not only of political upheaval, but also like what that means in terms of day data sovereignty. And so people like really feeling like it is, you know, like our duty on this continent in order to like center around these particular ideals in order to build a better software and to build a better tomorrow for our data. That also doesn't come without like, you know, its downfalls because we're looking at, you know, issues having to do with like ID and verification and things like that in order to access web content and the censorship issues that that entails. But I don't know, like, that's just one thing. It used to be really, really simplistic to say that in countries in Central and South America there's a lot of nihilism about, you know, whether or not communicating digitally was any better or like provided any like, you know, reasonable benefit to the act of journalism. Because the stakes are incredibly high in terms of violence against journalism, often to, you know, like, really, really horrible extremes. In my, like last couple of years encountering and listening to exactly what that looks like and encountering that resistance to certain types of technologies, especially like end to end technologies or circumvention tech like VPNs, you know, like things like that was really, really palpable. And it evolves. I have like ideas about what, you know, the American story looks like as well or you know, like within the United States, especially during these times. I feel like in the United States and it's something that I will super duper admit to. I wouldn't say like arrogance is the word, but definitely like an optimism about, you know, like how like, oh, it's okay, like this tech is definitely going to save us in order to like quote Paris Marx there. You know, just like an optimism that we were afforded. Until recently we were afforded that optimism and now I still do believe it, but I don't have the optimism. And now it's more of a fight. So. So yeah, and may that fight be baked into like, you know, the technical American ethos.

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Host of 404 Media Podcast (23:46)

I'm curious if you think think that there could be a world or a Future, you know, 10, 20 years from now when we also experience that sort of like going back to open source or return or building out open source, returning to things like Linux. Linux never went away, so we're only returning if you're on the desktop.

Harlow Holmes (24:11)

It is.

Host of 404 Media Podcast (24:13)

Okay, okay, say more about that please, because I think every time I bring up Linux on this podcast, people email me. So please, let's do it.

Harlow Holmes (24:22)

Well, I mean, what is there to say? You know, it is a fantastic alternative for a number of reasons that I've seen and I don't necessarily know if this resonates. It definitely doesn't resonates with like clients of mine. I still have to talk in Mac and Windows, I really do. But there are a couple of things I think are interesting. A absurdence in like maker culture. Right. And so using Linux systems is actually like the easiest like path forward if you aren't already like a Windows user. In order to like really, really dig deep into a lot of like these systems when we're looking at, you know, the like kind of like, drastic changes to Windows, in particular regarding how they've like dug 10 toes down into AI and like, aggressively pushing at it. There are a number of people for whom that is, like, pretty much, like, unattainable because, like, they cannot necessarily afford that hardware, RAM shortage notwithstanding, and also just like, unsustainable. Like, they don't want it, they. They revolt. And so there are a number of folks who are like, actually, no, I. If I learn Linux, I can actually learn to build something on my own terms. So. Yeah, and that's cool.

Host of 404 Media Podcast (25:38)

It is really cool. I think it's really cool. I mean, I, I'm like, I just need like the tiniest push probably to get off of Windows. I'm a Windows main and always have been. And then the end of Windows 10 support and the AI stuff.

Harlow Holmes (25:52)

Yeah.

Host of 404 Media Podcast (25:53)

What? Kind of felt like a last straw for me.

Harlow Holmes (25:55)

I know. And it came like a one, two punch, like, literally, like at the same time. And you're like, this is too much for people to absorb. So what are you going to expect? People are going to look for options.

Host of 404 Media Podcast (26:06)

Exactly. Yeah. I, Yeah, I need to block out probably a weekend and back all my stuff up and then make the attempt. Probably call some friends who are, who are Linux users to come help me do that.

Harlow Holmes (26:21)

Because I do.

Host of 404 Media Podcast (26:22)

I think it is. It's like, spiritually better for your soul to be off of Windows and Mac OS in general. These systems are just getting worse and worse and worse and more and more surveilled and taking more data every. Every moment. I'm just constantly batting stupid AI shit away from like my own operating system. Like, this is not. I'm going back to dos. Like, fuck this. Like, I want to go back to Windows 98. Like, forget 10. So, yeah, it's just, it feels like there could be in the same way that we're seeing kind of like a, like you said, like the creator ethos that's happening as a backlash to AI. It'll be more valuable to know how to do things yourself and to be someone who makes real things and isn't just consuming AI output. That does give me hope, which, yeah, it does lead me to something that I did want to talk about, which is this, and you mentioned it earlier, this idea of nihilism when it comes to privacy and security, which I think is something that. It's also not new. It's not a new kind of feeling, but it feels very much embedded at this point for a lot of folks where this kind of feeling of hopelessness where my data is everywhere. My Social Security is out there. It doesn't really matter what I do for my privacy. Especially now that every website that anybody likes to use is going to require ID and biometrics to verify your age. I can only see that getting worse. As far as, you know, just like, handing over mass amounts of your private information. How are you pushing back on that when you're confronted with that kind of attitude? I guess. And, like, where are you seeing ways to kind of push back against the idea that privacy is just like a foregone conclusion at this point?

Harlow Holmes (28:16)

I mean, I still do have, like, a certain amount of optimism. I also understand that I personally, like, came up during a time where we all thought it was cool in or, and I still think it's cool. In order to once again compartmentalize, like, you know, the way that you might browse publicly and also find your spaces where you can be more yourself. I really do. I mean, like, I know those spaces exist. I've been there, I've seen them. I still am on them. There's a younger generation out there who has never had access to those things. Didn't know those countercultures existed and don't necessarily know where to get started in terms of actually what this means in terms of our data. I really, really think that we're making so many mistakes currently regarding the way that age verification and other identity verification systems are being managed. There had been really smart ideas out there, but of course, they didn't gain traction because it didn't service the people who rule these technologies right now. And that carelessness is only going to lead to impending disaster and data will rain from the sky, but it won't be the first time and it won't be the last time. I'm. Yeah, I'm worried more about what this means from a censorship angle in that access to health information, especially reproductive health information, access to content that helps anybody find their way in terms of their sexual and gender identity in this crazy world. Anything that literally just, like, shows us the way to truth, putting barriers in the way to access those things on the same bar as that to, you know, like, shield, I don't know, vulnerable people from, like, the bowels of the Internet. Like, there's the false equivalence here. And like, you know, slapping one particular band aid on all of that to solve the problem is a disastrous mistake. But I also am optimistic from, you know, my years in the field that, like, we find our way out, we find our way around.

Host of 404 Media Podcast (30:35)

Yeah, I mean, at this point, we have a long history of seeing kind of these like cycles of censorship and then the ways that people find a way. Not to quote Jurassic park but that is, it's just, it's. It's kind of the, the way that humans work is we will find a way around, find a way to connect to each other. I think it's such a, it's such a good point and it's a point that I honestly don't even think that much about because it makes me really sad as like young people today don't really know that these spaces that you're referencing existed. So like it's you know like bulletin boards where you could be like fully anonymous or like chat rooms that were like closed systems. You know, even like, like multi user domains and things like that. Like pre World Wide web stuff where people were finding ways to talk to each other in a way that was very private and away from the eyes of some big corporation and also just away from like people they know in real life, their family even. It was such an important place to explore a lot of tough topics, especially about sexuality and especially for people who like young people who are distant from real life spaces that they could be themselves. You could do that online and I don't know where that is happening now. I'm old now so maybe that's still happening and I don't know it but even like Discord, I kind of thought Discord was like that for a lot of people and I think it actually is. But now you have to verify age on Discord. So yeah, like fuck, I don't know. We need a new, a new version of those things maybe, but I don't know what they would be. Maybe just use Signal. I don't know.

Harlow Holmes (32:15)

I mean signal. I love Signal. And I would say that Signal is a place where you know, like that's also my like hangout. That's my third place place, you know, I mean not like, I mean I have physical third places as one always should, but it has always been like a very, very important place to find my tribe and to connect with them. And I really, really, I mean I can't imagine a world where we don't have that. Not necessarily Signal, although long live Signal, but just places like that that afford us for privacy to select who we want to hang out with and spend our time with regardless of boundaries, in complete privacy. That's literally like a fundamental, I mean it should be a fundamental human, right?

Host of 404 Media Podcast (33:09)

Yeah, yeah. And it's so rare now. And it's also, if you don't know if you don't already have those people. It's hard to kind of know where to jump in with them in a very closed arena, like signal is. Whereas, like, you know, you used to be able to just like find common ground with people on, you know, the BBs, the boards. Yeah. So I would love to kind of bring all of this back around to what we're seeing today with journalists. We have, you know, several journalists arrested a couple weeks ago. By the time this airs, it'll probably be a full month ago. But we saw Hannah Natenson from WaPo have her phone and devices, many devices actually taken by FBI and in a raid. What are some of the things that freedom of press is doing in response to those very extreme actions? Both of those moments were like, holy shit. To me, it was like, oh my God, this is. It feels like I have that moment every day now though. I'm like, oh my God, this is crazy. But those especially, I guess because I am a journalist and this is my industry. But what, what are you guys doing in response to those in particular?

Harlow Holmes (34:27)

Sure. So first off, I once again, Freedom of the Press foundation, like, you know, attacks issues within press freedom from different fronts at once. And that's kind of, it makes us pretty nimble and hopefully effective. In terms of Hannah Natenson from Washington Post. Actually like a lot of training and conversation, like, you know, closed door discussions, consults and stuff like that with journalists who felt that they were equally as vulnerable to those things. And it meant an actual, like, unpacking of, you know, like court reported documentation of filings in order to read the tea leaves, which I think our team is really good with. In order to talk about what this means from a technical perspective, what this means from an operational security perspective and from, you know, like for individual journalists up to management. What does it mean in terms of the devices that people have in their hands? One thing that I think is very interesting about the NSON case is that we definitely did see or at least as we're reading it, that certain fundamentals do have promise and do work. Encryption works. Lockdown mode works. By the way, lockdown mode was created in response to state actors trying to like break into the phones of activists in, you know, like far flung countries. And here we are in, you know, the United States looking at that as like the thing that has saved our First Amendment in this one particular case and not saved it because it happened anyways. But in terms of worst case outcomes, having lockdown mode was an assertion that these things do like, they work. They're not just like, you know, buzzwords out there in the ether. The same thing with being able to minimize, you know, the blast radius in terms of the amount of data that was seized. So messages that had disappeared with other sources before or, you know, a particular date, that actually means a lot to a source that, you know, she had spoken to, like, a year and a half ago. That actually means a lot. And so we're mapping, you know, like, our technical analysis of these types of documentation to helping journalists across the board refine exactly what they do in meaningful steps. And I can wax on forever about, like, you know, my theory of threat modeling, where I don't think it's useful for people to say, like, the threat is fascism. Like, no, the threat is a phone that is not secured in this way. Like, because if you think about it that way, you're ineffective and you're, like, going to just be sitting in a corner holding your knees. It's not useful. In terms of Don Lemon and Georgia Fort, we have signed on to a letter in order to let NABJ take the lead here. The national association for Black Journalists, I feel, not only, like, on behalf of Freedom of the Press foundation, but also a black woman in this industry, incredibly, at times vulnerable, incredibly at times, like, unheard, and incredibly at certain times, like one of the first on the line when. When shit hits the fan. And the support that NABJ can give to not only Lemon and Fort, but so many others that vocal support, especially given, like, you know, their history during, you know, like, pre election and things like that, like, that is the solidarity we need, and we want everybody to know that we are there.

Host of 404 Media Podcast (38:15)

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it was not. Not lost on me and not lost on a lot of people. The journalists that were targeted in that day, that few hours where those arrests were happening in Minneapolis, it was black journalists who were on the line there, and they were the ones who were targeted. And I think that kind of goes back to what you were saying about the ways that security is political and between. It's even just within communities in the United States. The United States is very varied, very diverse. But it's like this community has a very different threat model than this one. It's like the Latino community has a very different threat model than the black community, than certainly than, you know, like, white, straight people like myself. It's like, it's a very different model that we're all looking at, but the protections that we can solidify for the black community, for the Latino community, for people who are on those Front lines benefits everyone. And I think that's something that I've. I've kind of learned quite a bit from my reporting on the adult industry and in sex work. It's like, these are the things that are happening to, like, the other people are not happening to other people. They're going to happen to you tomorrow. Yes.

Harlow Holmes (39:27)

Yeah.

Host of 404 Media Podcast (39:28)

So. And it's like you said, with the. The idea of lockdown mode being something that was, like, this distant problem for activists elsewhere. It's like, actually, it's here now. Like, it's something that's gonna benefit us here, and that's that theory in action. It's not even a theory. It's just, like, the way that this. That all this privacy stuff works. We'll definitely be following those cases for sure. Yeah, definitely. What do you see as, like, the new threat, if any? Maybe it's all old stuff. Maybe it's all. We're just seeing more the same from years past. But what are you seeing as, like, new escalation that we haven't seen before with this administration?

Harlow Holmes (40:08)

Let's see. I mean, there are some things that I don't even want to enunciate because I don't want to speak them into existence.

Host of 404 Media Podcast (40:15)

Fair enough. Yeah. And when they arrested Don Lemon, I was like, they're wrestling Don Lemon.

Harlow Holmes (40:24)

It's like, what?

Host of 404 Media Podcast (40:26)

Like, this is a different. We're in a different era.

Harlow Holmes (40:29)

Yeah.

Host of 404 Media Podcast (40:30)

Is there anything that are, like. That you're seeing is like, okay, this is more of the same. We're just experiencing it in, like, a more intense way.

Harlow Holmes (40:39)

I would. So one thing that I'm keeping an eye on is, you know, the support that we can give one another. And I think that is something that I do feel comfortable naming. One thing that petrifies me but doesn't surprise me either, is arrest of Fort and Len and Lemon were incredibly shocking and jarring. The raid on Nathanson's home, vehicle and person in pursuit of a warrant, rather than what we would. Would expect in, you know, like, cases that still were, like, most of the time frivolous. They usually require subpoena, but they went through a warrant. Right. So it's the hollowing out of supports that we have always, like, taken for granted and thus is, you know, like, the foundation of my very, like, USA American, like, ethos of optimism. Because there's always been rules. It's just about finding out what works in order to make yourself safer in front of those rules. Not only that, but, you know, where does that. Where does. Does that go from There, like the. The trust has already been broken. Where does it go from there? And I think everyone knows we know. They, whoever they are, know that we do, like, rely upon our. Our ability to, like, mutually support and build one another. And destroying that from the inside is what I think is going to, like, unhitch us all and leave us at the extremes where we can't find one another. And that's like a very abstract way of going about it, but that is what I fear. Yeah.

Host of 404 Media Podcast (42:23)

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, I definitely do feel like the work that you're doing and the work that so many privacy and journalism rights activists are working on is the. I don't know what the word is for it. It's like the finger in the dam, I guess, the last stand against that happening. And that's where I see hope. And I'm like, okay, there are people who still care about this stuff and people who really want to see that hopeful future come about. It's just going to be hard. In the meantime, we're doing a lot of fucking around and finding out these days, so. Okay, well, I think that's a good place to leave it. I've kept you long enough.

Harlow Holmes (43:16)

Well, it's always a pleasure talking to you. Yeah.

Host of 404 Media Podcast (43:18)

Oh my God. This is so such a good conversation.

Harlow Holmes (43:21)

Yes.

Host of 404 Media Podcast (43:23)

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