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The 404 Media Podcast
REPLAY: Pornhub Exec Alexzandra Kekesi Discusses Pulling Out of the South, Trad Wives, and Feet Pics
00:56:54
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- [00:00]
A
The new year brings new health goals and wealth goals. Protecting your identity is an important step. Your info is in endless places that could expose you to identity theft leading to lost funds. LifeLock monitors millions of data points per second. If your identity is stolen, our restoration specialists will fix it, guaranteed or your money back. Resolve to make identity, health and wealth part of your New year's goals. With LifeLock, save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast Terms apply 44 Media.
- [00:31]
B
Is on break while we're away. We're not leaving you stranded. We are resurfacing a few of our earlier interview episodes. You guys have told us that you've really been enjoying the weekly one on one style conversations we've been doing for the past few weeks. So we're revisiting them and a few of the conversations we had earlier in the year just in case you missed them. In January, I talked to Alexander Kakesi, VP of Brand and Community at pornhub. A lot of our chat covered the sweeping HR vacation laws that passed across the US and beyond since then. In the months since, we've seen even more passage of these regressive laws and earlier this month the US just hit halfway mark in terms of total states to pass their own AB laws. We talk about a lot more than that though, so I hope you enjoy. Hello and welcome to the four four Media podcast where we bring you unparalleled access to hidden worlds, both online and IRL. Four4Media is a journalist, founding company and needs your support. To subscribe, go to Four4Media Co as well as bonus content every single week. Subscribers get access to additional episodes where we respond to their best comments. We just recorded one of those, so watch out for that. Gain access to that content at Four4Media co. Usually the podcast includes my co founders, Jason Kebler, Emmanuel Myberg and Joseph Cox, but today you just have me and a guest I am delighted to have with us Alexandra Kakesi. She is VP of Brand and Community at Pornhub. She took that role in August 2023 after working for Pornhub and its parent company for more than a decade. But she's joining us today from Montreal, which is where pornhub is based. Instead of going on like a long ramble introducing you, I would love to just jump right in and have you tell us how you got into this gig. Like, what's the, what's the backstory here? I know that's always like the number one question for people in the industry is how did you get into this.
- [02:30]
C
Yeah. And it's funny because I don't know if anyone ever has, like, a satisfying answer. I don't think so. Right. So I actually did a degree in Gender and Sexuality Studies here in Montreal at the Simone de Beauvoir Institute, which is part of Concordia University. So this whole world was not something new to me, certainly coming out of school. And it's where I would say that my. My genuine interest in sex work as both a feminist cause, you know, in so many ways, but also one of bodily autonomy was really born, I guess, was when I was in school, I had the pleasure of, you know, learning a lot about it from, certainly from an academic standpoint, obviously, but then through a number of different mediums. So I learned a lot about the ways that different laws criminalize sex work around the world, even in some ways, how sex work has quite literally influenced the way that certain cities have been designed, especially here in Montreal. There's a long history of how sort of the Red Lake District evolved into today's contemporary Chinatown, sort of right around the port. A number of my instructors were sex workers. So it was really sort of instilled in me, you know, during my studies. And it was something that I was and continue to be very, very interested in. Alo, which was, you know, when I joined the company back in 2013, was then Manwin, then became Mindgeek.
- [03:59]
D
Wow.
- [04:00]
B
It was Manwin at the time.
- [04:01]
C
Yeah.
- [04:01]
B
Way back. Yeah.
- [04:04]
C
I think I still have some, like, very ancient man when. Merch somewhere.
- [04:08]
B
That's sick.
- [04:09]
C
Yeah, it's my little. My little nest egg for retirement selling.
- [04:12]
B
Yeah.
- [04:13]
C
On ebay. But, yeah, it was a place that one of my best friends was working at. Right. When I got out of school, she referred me for a job. I started here doing community service or community management, rather, I should say, for one of our smaller brands that's called tube 8. So I was doing their social media and I was doing support for them as well. And then that kind of just grew into a larger role on the marketing team, doing copywriting, stuff like that. I was working on our famous Insights blog, which I know going to talk about a little bit later the year. Interview just came out. Yeah. And I really just matured into the role that I have now, which I love. I think it really allows me to work on all of the parts of the business and in all the parts of the industry that I'm most interested in. Primarily that involves engaging directly with the community. So I'm very present at events. I'm continuously in dialogue with creators and I really do think that that is one of the things that sets sort of pornhub apart from a lot of the other creator sites out there is that this is something that we're, you know, we really try and visibly make part of our identity and of our brand as a platform that really seeks, you know, we want the good, the bad and the ugly when it comes to what creators have to say about us and what they think about us. Like we think that information is so valuable and so important, especially the criticism. There have been a number of different updates that we've rolled out on pornhub over the course of the last year. There's the ever evolving situation with age verification law. So it's a lot of information sharing with creators, but then also getting feedback. We also actually have a couple of people on our team who like, that's what they do. They, they engage in sort of, I guess like what the mainstream world would call sort of, you know, focus groups with creators regularly. So these are things that we do where we actively seek out models from our community. We pay them for their time and survey them on different things to see what we're doing right and then not so right. And then depending on where appropriate, we feed that information, you know, either back to the compliance team, to the product team, whatever, so that we can continuously optimize the process for our folks.
- [06:31]
B
Nice.
- [06:31]
C
Yeah.
- [06:32]
B
So a lot to do. So much to do every day. Yeah. I was just reading a Wired article that came out I think last week and it was called the Sticky Dilemmas of pornhub's next chapter. I know, I was like, damn, I can't even, I can't talk. I've had some headlines of my day that are cringe, but that was a good one. And you're quoted, you mentioned in that story. Part of the job for you is taking flack is what you said from performers and people who use the site to make a living. So I'm curious, what happened to you? What are the big with lately? What are the biggest concern for folks who are in the industry or folks.
- [07:07]
C
Who are in the industry? Yeah, so I guess like the, the primary one is it's really a double edged sword. Right. So it's, it's our compliance protocol. It's one of the big misconceptions I think that people have is that it's so easy to just get content up on pornhub. Right. Like it's actually quite a complicated process by design. You know, before, and I know that you've spoken to my colleague Sal, about this in the past, so I won't get into the whole, you know, nuts and bolts of it, but essentially before you're even able to upload content to the site, you have to undergo a rigorous verification process, you know, to confirm identity. And then after that your content undergoes its own moderation process. Right. So it's, it's not just like a straightforward linear thing. It has to get scanned against a number of different databases, which is looking for anything from, you know, the metadata containing a banned word from our banned word list or, you know, all the way to known illegal content. So scanning against different databases that contain sort of fingerprints of known illegal content of all types. So on the user end, as far as the model is concerned, what that looks like today is that when you're uploading content to the site, you also need to upload documentation proving consent of all participants as well as their IDs. So that takes a while, right? Like these are each, each content creator is really the way that we look at them. It's like a small business and folks have to spend a good amount of time uploading content and uploading, you know, the metadata to make sure that the content is finding the right audience. But then there's also the whole sort of checklist when it comes to the consent side of it. And you know, sometimes because we do rely on third parties for parts of that. So for the, the, the verification part, like if you don't have like, I don't know, all of your software up to date, your cookies are, you know, bogged up or whatever, there can be like that kind of friction that can be really frustrating for people because then that obviously also incurs delays to when their content is going live and they're counting on their content going live for that content to earn money. So it's a lot of those kinds of conversations. And certainly, you know, this is not unique to us. This is something that's happening sort of industry wide across the creator space, not just limited to adult. And I think ultimately like it's, it's part of something that's overall quite positive, it's contributing to a safer Internet. But then at the same time, like, you know, just from the user standpoint, we do understand that, you know, it's not super easy and this is, you know, especially for creators that have been in the business for a long time, like people that have, you know, been there since the age of like vhs, DVD to then Internet, like, it's so many, like, it's a lot of change all the time. So I understand how that can be frustrating. But you know, the good news is that we do have a robust team of folks that are available to creators. Like, that's another thing that we really pride ourselves on is that you're not going to get some like, you know, chat bot, AI generated support thing where you have to like figure out how to hack it so that you can actually get access to a human. Like, I can't tell you, you know, like you've dealt with that before. Like it's like impossible to speak to like a competent human being sometimes. Like when you just have like the simplest thing that you want to solve either with like, you know, your Internet bill or whatever. So we really try and remove that friction from the experience for our creators and have people available to help them with this kind of stuff. We also have a number of different resources available on the blog. From everything from the more technical aspects of it to, you know, how to succeed on the site, how to make the most money possible. So we really try and make ourselves available on that front as well.
- [10:38]
B
Yeah, yeah, I mean I would imagine just everything is like you said, everything is changing so quickly from the creator's point of view and also from like consumers point of view, things are changing too, which I'm definitely, I'm excited to get into that with you in a little bit. But yeah, I just to back up a tiny bit. So like your day to day sounds wild, very busy. But when you first started this job, something that I thought was really interesting and you talked about this a little bit in the, the Terms of Service podcast, which is fantastic, I'm a fan, thank you. But you talked about the decision to go public like with your name. Because for a long time pornhub was like, I mean it was always like the shady company that's like running porn. It's like all these kind of like conceptions about it as like something that's the opposite of transparent, very much like opaque leadership. And I thought that was interesting to kind of, to say, you know, I'm gonna say this is me, this is my real name. And I would love for you to kind of explain a little bit like what that has been like. Because immediately after you took that role, you know, there was, there were quite a few like kind of interesting tabloid like angles taken that were like, you know, where like pornhub promotes this like female executive, they're bringing on a woman, it's like, you know, like she's pretty qualified. Like they're not just like, here's a, here's a chick, let's put her in front of the public. But what was that like for you? Because that's such a shift from how you were working to step into that role in that way.
- [12:08]
C
Yeah, that was so annoying because like you said, I've been here, like, since the dawn of time. So if anything, it's like, I don't know. I would certainly understand that reaction, like you said, if they had just kind of plucked someone out of the ether and been like, okay, we're going to do some window dressing here and that'll be that. But I've really been like, living and breathing this brand and this, you know, this industry for over a decade now. Like in Jan. In June, I'll be celebrating 12 years with the company. So I'm really happy to be here. And honestly, it, you know, it was a conversation for sure where I had to tell my folks, like, they obviously have known since day one that I work here. But it's a different thing for sure to be sort of public facing. But I think, you know, if we're talking about sort of the main hindrance, I think, to the adult industry today is stigma. Right? And that is something that we see at every level. So when we talk about things like banking, like sex workers in many cases, you know, not having access to mortgages, even though they might have millions of dollars in the bank, they can't get a mortgage or they can't buy a house, you know, and as part of a certain co op, because the members of that co op don't want, you know, someone like that to be part of their community in that way. You know, the whole genesis of the podcast that I have, Terms of Service, is from the fact that we got booted from Instagram, So, like, erasure on those types of spaces. And so that was one of the major things really that informed my decision, was that, you know, if we want to start seeing things getting better, it can't just be sex workers that are advocating for themselves. Like, we also need people that are part of the industry that are, you know, it's. Sex work is what pays my rent. It's not me doing it, it's our community. You know, so I think that's part of the responsibility that we have as part of this community. Like, I really do see myself as part of the sex work in the adult industry community, you know, to be out there and to be vocal and to take up that space, not instead of, I think, you know, in concert with sex workers themselves and, you know, advancing those causes. Because if we just kind of keep it in the shadows or we're relying on the labor of the people that are primarily impacted by a lot of these struggles, by a lot of these issues, like, that's not fair either. And we're certainly not going to get anywhere.
- [14:28]
B
Yeah. Have you had to deal with, like, any, like, harassment or people kind of, like, tracking you down? I know that people in the industry, often, that's why they stay, you know, private with their name and, you know.
- [14:41]
C
Yeah, exactly. That was, I mean, and that was, you know, part of the motivation, certainly with previous leadership, which I can understand. But then what we saw was that, you know, when we're not visible, when we're not accessible, then other voices or other theories or other, you know, people are very happy to occupy that space and tell stories that we don't necessarily want told or stories that are not necessarily true about us as a company or about the industry in general, which can have its own set of harms, for sure. Yeah, I got some interesting dms. Absolutely. You know, I try and avoid reading the comments as much as. As possible, you know, when I go on other podcasts or whatever else, articles about me. But honestly, I really, really love my job. I feel really privileged to have the job that I do. There are many more pluses to cons, I would say, for sure.
- [15:32]
B
Yeah. Yeah. It's just. I mean, I like taking on, like, a new job. It's like, I mean, it's already, like, stressful, and it's like, oh, let me, like, do a personal news post or, like, put it on LinkedIn or whatever. And it's like, it's such a different ball game when you're like, I'm gonna be like, the marketing face of this very famous porn company. I'm glad that you guys are going the transparency route and being like, hey, we're people. And I know that other leadership has been doing that, too, since, I guess, last year.
- [16:01]
C
Ish. Yeah, we were acquired in. It was March of last year. And I think that, you know, that was one of the main sort of priorities that they had as new owners was that they really wanted to put an emphasis on transparency and accessibility so that there would not be any, you know, in an article anymore. You're not going to see, like, pornhub could not be reached a comment or ELO could not be reached a comment. The only way that I think that could happen today is like, and this is so annoying just because sometimes we do use email addresses that have, you know, like, pornhub press or whatever, something. And it's like it just gets stuck in people's spam.
- [16:40]
B
Yeah, that's real.
- [16:41]
C
Yeah.
- [16:42]
B
Yeah.
- [16:42]
C
So annoying. Even sometimes, you know, just communicating like, even if it's with my, my email address just like the fact that it says like pornhub and it's like, obviously, yes, it will say that, but gets stuck in people's spam. So. Yes. Yeah, it's very irritating.
- [16:56]
B
Yeah, I've. I've had to get creative sending emails before. It's like, if you're emailing like a, like a professor at like a university for comment or about something and it's like, I know that this is never going to get through their, like, firewall for the emails. Like, what can I. Like how many words can I come up with for porn? I'm using the word adult all the time. Um, yeah. So it's been a crazy year to say the least. So, yeah, let's get into the annual year in review. So this is like a big. You guys have been doing the year in review forever.
- [17:26]
C
Yeah. Well over 10 years at this point.
- [17:28]
B
Yeah. And like, it's always a ride. This year. I, I don't know, I find it. I find it super interesting and a little bit strange. And like, my first reaction was like, oh, yikes. When I saw the, the, the demure and the trad wife stuff come up, I was like, oh, my God. Like, so to give people a little bit of context this year, the, the trending topics, like, correct me if I' this is not like the most popular stuff on pornhub. This is like, what's seen the most growth. So the word demure. Searches for demure rose 133%. Simple sex grew 55%. Authentic sex was 43%. What is simple sex, I wonder?
- [18:10]
C
I know. I was like, what's the opposite to like, complicated? Or like.
- [18:14]
B
Yeah, yeah. The things people search. Trad wife was up 72% am amateur wife, 21%. Amateur porn wife or amateur at being a wife? We're not sure. Traditional wife. Traditional wife, 34% increase. And then there was a bunch of different Mormon sex terms which, which you guys attributed to the secret lives of Mormon wives.
- [18:49]
D
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- [23:44]
B
My first thought about all of this was oh God, we just had a year of the discourse has been kids are more puritanical now. Gen Z doesn't want to see sex in movies. And then of course like the in the States at least like this rise in like mainstream conservatism and these kind of very honestly concerning to me trends happening in society. And then the first thing that people are searching for on pornhub is stuff that reflects that. So I'm curious what you made of that. Like what was kind of your your reaction to this?
- [24:20]
C
I mean I think like what's interesting about the year interview or even searches activity on the site in general is that like you said it is, you know, certainly A mirror of what's kind of going on in society in general. Right. Because one of the things, you know, that makes, I think, the insights so valuable and so interesting to look at is that we do have so much traffic, right. We're having. We're hovering somewhere around the ballpark of, like, 130 million daily visitors. So when you see those fluctuations in, you know, traffic or these spikes and searches, like, it really is indicative of, like, real trends or real change in society. So, you know, certainly Tradwifes, for instance, like, that was huge this year with, like, the big, you know, the pieces about Ballerina Farm and Nara Smith and whatever else. Like, you know, it's only normal to me that it would be on pornhub as well, that people want to see, you know, is there content that sort of depicts something like this? Much in the same way that, you know, when a new Batman movie comes out, we see searches go up for those types of characters for Batman and Harley Quinn and whatever else. So it never really surprises me that we're seeing what's happening or what's popular in general. Sort of zeitgeist discourse be reflected there too.
- [25:40]
B
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I talked to a few people who make content and also people who study it, and this, like, the. I think the reaction that most people had who I talked to were like, yeah, of course. Like, it was the same kind of thing. It's like, oh, yeah, like, yeah, of course they're. They're searching for these things because it is a fetish already. It's like, it's been a fetish since the, like, the 50s or something. It's like it was never. Like, it was never really real. So of course people are carrying that over into their sex lives and, like, trying to fantasize about, you know, like, stay at home moms making pie and looking hot. It's like, yeah, naturally. And also, I think. And this kind of goes back to the Instagram thing. It's like those platforms are so safe for work, you know, like, quote, unquote, safe for work.
- [26:29]
C
Not safe, not.
- [26:30]
B
Not our work, but safe for somebody's work. And they will shut you down if you do any kind of, like, anything near showing too much side boob. Like, it's just. It's a crazy, strict algorithm that they're running. So, like, the content creators who make that stuff, I think often kind of know that it's a sexual fantasy as well. It's not just a. Not just a. An economic or social fantasy. It's like a sexual thing, too. So I think that's really interesting that people have, that creators have picked up on that and said, let me make some more, more of this type of content. Because people like it.
- [27:04]
C
I mean, we also give them that information, right? Like monthly we send like that information is accessible to our creators. They don't just have to wait for the year in review. We make a point of being like, you know, this is what's doing really well on the site. You know, do with that what you will. And then people, you know, roll with it and then we see that they see success.
- [27:23]
B
So yeah, that's so interesting that they can see that and they can kind of react to it too. I'm sure that's super useful.
- [27:28]
C
But like you said, I mean, they also definitely don't need to wait, you know, for us to tell them. Like, content creators, especially the ones that are very successful, are very, very smart and like, they know that if something is happening in pop culture, like, I just saw that Joanna angel, you know, put out a Luigi Mangione inspired.
- [27:49]
D
Piece.
- [27:51]
B
That's so good.
- [27:52]
C
Yeah.
- [27:53]
B
Stop. Oh my God, I love her.
- [27:55]
C
Yeah, she's great.
- [27:56]
B
Immediately about that. Yeah, yeah.
- [27:58]
C
Like, so creative because. And it's just like, yeah, obviously that's been like dominating the news cycle for like the past two weeks now. Like, of course someone is going to.
- [28:06]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is there anything outside of like the, the pornhub, like the insights ecosystem that you see happening in the culture or the conversations that are going on around sex that are kind of getting your eye lately? Like, what's kind of.
- [28:21]
C
Yeah, there was actually. So when I was just in New York a couple of days ago, meeting with a couple of writers and this really interesting parallel emerged in this. This came up in a couple of different conversations where, you know, a lot of writers these days or independent creators are getting on substack. Right. Which I think is so great and I think is, you know, such a great way of supporting people. Like, we've seen it on with Patreon and I, you know, I support a number of different people on Substack and I love it because it just allows me to see like, not only this kind of like unfiltered version of these, of these writers, but also being able to consume more of their content and then their barely paid for it. And we all realized like, you know, Substack is kind of onlyfans for, for journalists in many ways. And it was like, just like such an interesting thing. And this came up really kind of organically and because I feel like that was a conversation that a lot of creators in the adult space were having a couple of years ago. Like, oh, are you on OnlyFans yet? Da Da da. And oh, I don't know, like, see what it is. And I think like that's the conversation that's really happening right now with alternative media. So it's again, like these kind of like trendsetting and universal sort of things that are happening across economies and across, you know, kind of creator subsets, if you will. It's just so fascinating.
- [29:44]
B
Yeah, yeah, I mean it's just, that's like, it's yet another example of like sex workers doing it first when it comes to like, like seeing what's coming down the line as far as like economic forces and also just the way that they make business needs to be structured. Like I think I'm gonna say like five or 10 years ago, maybe not even 10 years ago, but like everyone was like, oh, like the studio system is broken. The traditional way that distribution works is breaking because of the Internet. It's no longer like you go to the VHS store and pick up a video and, or not even like a DVD from the store. Like people just don't go anywhere anymore. And also that need to like get a hold of your own content, um, and to, to take control of your own, your own work and your own output instead of just making it for a check for someone else. Um, yeah, sex workers did that first, of course. So it makes a lot of sense now that we're, we're pushing that way. I mean we like four. Four exists for that reason.
- [30:40]
C
It's like, yeah, totally.
- [30:42]
B
Like we're a result of that kind of those pressures too. It's like we need to own our own stuff because our industry is also collapsing.
- [30:51]
C
Well that, yeah, like that was a conversation I was having with folks where it's just like, you know, especially when you're working in legacy media, right? Where it's just like, yes, it's great to have one of these big publication names on your website, but like that's not going to buy you groceries because a lot of these jobs unfortunately don't pay very well. And you know, it's. I don't think that like legacy media is useless or has no place anymore. Of course that's not the case much. In the same way that the studio system certainly still has its place and certainly has its value, but it's these kind of alternative channels that offer, you know, much needed different sources of income for the creator, but then also a great experience for the audience member. Right. Because they're also able to engage and access different sort of facets of the creator and different types of content and in most cases, more of it, which is kind of great for everybody.
- [31:47]
B
Yeah, yeah. It's not just like, this is what this producer thinks is hot, or not even that they think it's hot that they know will sell or that it's gonna be like the bombshell on the poster. It can be lots of different. Lots of different body types, lots of different types of content, lots of different kinks out there. People find all of it sexy. You're gonna find an audience if you.
- [32:12]
C
Put it out there.
- [32:15]
B
So. Yeah. And that goes back to the trad stuff. Well, as like, someone I talked to, Eric Sprenkel, who wrote a book about masturbation.
- [32:21]
C
Yeah.
- [32:21]
B
He was like, well, yeah, it's like, you see this content, you see this content creator, and you're like, oh, I wonder if she has feet pics for sale somewhere? And you go find her somewhere else. You go to my hubby and you look for her on there. And it's like people have gotten used to kind of following that. That cycle. Yeah.
- [32:37]
C
And that's actually. That's so interesting because that's exactly sort of what I explained to folks is the benefit of being on pornhub. Right. Because there's still a lot of people that don't understand that. Yes. Like, pornhub is a free site to access for the user. And so there's a misunderstanding. I think that it can be quite lucrative for the creator because it's a free site to access. So we do pay, you know, a portion of the rev share on the ads to the creators, but then also we allow them to link out to their other sites, which is something that's, I think, unique to us. If I'm not mistaken, we're the only platform of our type that not only allows it, but also encourages it. So I kind of make the analogy to Spotify to help people understand it where, you know, I love every Monday, like it just came out, my little Discover Weekly playlist that gets generated. I have discovered so many different artists that I would never have probably encountered organically or would have taken me much longer. So obviously, for us, I'm very proud to say that we do pay by stream proportionately better than Spotify does per view. But, you know, that said, Spotify is a. Not the only one, but a revenue stream for creators. So is pornhub for our subset of creators. But the benefit is that, you know, kind of similar to the way that I discover a new artist in my Discover Weekly playlist. What that translates to is I'm gonna go see them play a show, I'm gonna go buy their merch. I'm able to find these other ways of supporting those creators because I found them there. So same with pornhub. We're such a great discovery platform. We have, you know, again, so much traffic, so many people visiting us that we're able to really, you know, help people find their different audiences. Right. In that way. And so when someone discovers you on pornhub, they can then go, you know, to your profile on the site and find your only fans. They can find your Amazon wishlist. They can find your personal website, like wherever it is that you want to direct those other folks to so that they can support you in those ways.
- [34:45]
B
Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, that's. I guess that's kind of how I've, I've thought about pornhub too. It's like, it's basically like free advertising at worst. And if you do really well in pornhub and you get, you know, ranked higher and higher in the algorithm or in the, like in the trending stuff, then, you know, then people will find you more easily and then you'll have more only fans, followers or something. I don't know. Like, it just seems like a part of a funnel now than just like the one stop situation. And people do like. I don't know if people, I don't know if our listeners are frequenters or pornhub or not, but I like to explain things to people as if they're not. Just in case. Yeah, because a lot of people, I don't know aren't, I guess, but a lot of performers will put up like clips or like, it'll be a short piece of a trailer. You know, it's like, it's not the whole, the whole scene even in a lot of the cases, or certainly not the whole film. If they're doing like a long thing, it'll just be like a highlight, a highlight reel or like a little, short, little clip, which. Yeah, I think that's, that's smart.
- [35:46]
C
Yeah.
- [35:47]
B
Yeah. So I, we don't have a ton of time left and I want to devote plenty of time to age reification because that's something that I've been covering quite a bit and I know that's something that pornhub has been really vocal about in the last year and really getting into this fight. So I'm gonna, I, I'm gonna focus on us Age verification laws. Just because that's. Yeah, that's probably our audience. And also it's just my expertise. I recently did a podcast with CBC and we got to the age of verification legislation stuff in this podcast about pornhub. And like Canadian media was calling me to ask me about like Canadian legislation and I was like, like, let me read really fast. But it follows a lot of the same beats.
- [36:33]
C
So it's. Yeah, I mean that's, that's the thing is that like we're going to have the conversation today in an American context, but really like the laws as they're designed on an international level are all very, very similar.
- [36:44]
B
Yeah, yeah. Which is also, it's telling and interesting. So just to kind of set it up for people, what we're talking about, when we're talking about age verification laws, what we need is this very particular kind of legislation that usually, like you said, follows this kind of template, almost this pattern. It usually requires sites with like, quote, more than one third adult content or like it's like 33% or something adult content. So that would be Pornhub, but also probably a lot of other sites that aren't talking about this, like Twitter, but Google. Yeah, Google a lot of other places probably. But the focus is on the porn sites from these legislators. So they're forcing sites to force users to upload driver's license, passport, other kind of government issued IDs in order to access the site. And the interesting thing is this is happening state by state in the US right now. So one state will have a law like this in place where that requires you to upload your driver's license to a porn site. And the others, you go across the street to the next state and it doesn't. Or even if you're in one state and your IP address is the other one. Yeah, that happens.
- [37:48]
C
Yes. We get so many angry people writing into support about that.
- [37:53]
B
Yeah, it's like it's not working. It's not working out. But nevertheless, there are 14 states at this point, I think, with age verification.
- [38:03]
C
Yeah. With a handful more coming into effect in just two weeks, including Florida.
- [38:09]
B
Yeah. So it's going to be most states soon, I feel like within the next few years, unless something happens and these things get rolled back. So pornhub has blocked access to users in several of those states that are, that have those laws in place already as a way to comply with the law which says you must do this. Pornhub's just saying we're out.
- [38:30]
C
Yeah.
- [38:30]
B
So how many now has pornhub actually blocked access.
- [38:34]
C
I think you're right that it's. There's 14 in total, but Louisiana is the exception because there is a law in effect there and we did make the decision to go ahead with the state endorsed method there. That was the first one to go into effect almost two years ago now.
- [38:54]
B
Yeah, it's like the, it's like the state has as a real ID kind of thing.
- [38:58]
C
Yeah. So in Louisiana it's called LA Wallet and that was the first one to go into effect. So we decided, okay, we'll see how this goes. We're going to comply. I mean, we always comply. But like you said, for the majority, the way that we choose to comply is by just simply shutting off service. And the real issue, I think with the way that these laws are set up or like you said, is that it's happening at the site level. Right. So that means anytime you go to any individual, different adult site or any site that has this threshold that's been established, a 33% threshold, it's meant to prompt this process by which you have to verify your age using any number of these methods where you have to prove your ID or prove your age, rather using government id. And in Louisiana, what we're consistently seeing is that when people are met with this, and this is again, this is with LA Wallet, that's a product that had a very, or continues to have a very wide adoption rate as is, because people are using it in their everyday lives, you know, to buy beer at the store, to get into a nightclub, whatever else. We're still seeing upwards of an 80% bounce rate. So that means that it should be this really simple thing. You already have this on your phone, you already trust it and people are just like, nope. And I understand why. Right. Because it goes completely against human behavior. What we're taught or what we're told continuously to do is if someone is asking you for your personal information on the Internet, you're not supposed to just give it away. You're supposed to be very careful about that. You're supposed to be, you know, use a lot of scrutiny when it comes to, to who and where you're giving this kind of sensitive information, rightfully so. But then all of a sudden when it comes to a porn site, you're supposed to do it like that doesn't make any sense. And you know, we've seen firsthand with, with what happened with Ashley Madison just a couple of years ago, like how devastating really the consequences of a data breach could be. We're talking about really, like life ruining stuff. Like people legitimately, you know, they had marriages fall apart, they in some cases commit suicide.
- [41:04]
B
Like it's like a safety issue.
- [41:06]
C
Yeah, it's, it's really devastating. And especially like, you know, when we're considering certain states where already, you know, it's not so great out there if you're part of certain minority groups, like if you are queer, if you are trans or you are, you know, someone who is interested sexually in trans folks. And then you're going to have potentially, you know, records of your search activity looking for that stuff in that state. Like, that's not great. And poses, you know, considerable privacy and safety risks, understandably. So. So in addition to that, like when we think if we're just going to dial it back a little bit to that 80% figure in Louisiana, like, we know that that, you know, considerable group of people did not just decide, okay, I'm not going to watch or never again, they're going to go to other sites where they don't encounter that threshold, we'll say. Because the other issue here is with the way that these laws are designed, certainly at the state level, you can imagine that enforcement is, if not very difficult, I would say impossible. There's hundreds of thousands, if not millions of adult sites that exist out there. I don't know how any government of any size is going to be properly equipped to really go after and make sure that every single one of them is, you know, outfitted correctly with the proper age verification mechanisms. You know, us on, on our side, we're always going to be compliant with the law, whether that looks like, you know, in the majority of cases, just pulling out and, and withdrawing service. But that's, that's not what we're seeing for the vast majority of, you know, the competition or just other adult sites out there. And the other thing that I think really does bear worth talking about is that for us with pornhub, we do have a really extensive moderation system. We do have a really robust trust and safety protocol. These are things that we take really seriously that we've invested in considerably. So people can trust that the content on our site is safe and has been vetted and that the people that are on our site are there because they've chosen to. We have the consent paperwork and the IDs to prove that that's not the case for a lot of other sites out there. So what you're doing effectively is encouraging people to go to those other sites where the content is not safe or the content hasn't been verified, hasn't been moderated, or if it has been, it's certainly not to the same standards that we have. So I really fail to see or to understand how this is contributing to a safer Internet.
- [43:42]
B
It's interesting that when it comes up that like pornhub has blocked another site or whatever it is the. And I've seen, you know, like state officials say this too. I get their like, press releases about like pornhub and like their fight against pornhub or whatever. But it'll be like pornhub runs away from this law or like they. It's like they're trying to make it sound like it's admitting that it's so bad that you can't access it in Texas, you know, and it's like. And you know, it'll be like, you know, Ken Paxton will be like, good riddance or whatever. So, yeah, I think that's telling. It's interesting the way that both sides have had to kind of like, it's like they're talking past each other, telling a different story. But like I'm not hearing really solutions from the legislators who are passing these laws who are saying like, this is actually like, here's a real solution that's not forcing people to give their ID to a website. Whereas the adult industry and pornhub also lately has been saying, look, here's the. Actually like, what is better? So if not this, which I think people, a lot of people hear it for the first time, like, oh yeah, of course, age verification, that's great. If not this, what should we do to like, not to not let kids access like mature content?
- [44:59]
C
Yes.
- [45:00]
B
Yeah. If you want to walk folks through.
- [45:01]
C
Like that, I'd be happy to. And I mean, I think it's important also to note that it's not just us, like, it's also in the child protection space. Icmec, which is the International center for Missing and Exploited Children, recently published a model bill that is called the Digital Age Assurance Act. So the D. Aaa which is something that we really stand behind and we think really does stand to, if adopted, solve this problem. So the problem being children accessing age inappropriate content. And I, and I was careful there not to say pornography because this really does stand to impact or to benefit, I should say, a number of different industries because we're certainly not alone in the adult industry when it comes to, you know, providing content, providing entertainment that not everybody should be consuming. Right. So that can also involve gaming, that can involve cannabis, tobacco, alcohol, a number of other different industries. Could benefit from this as well. Basically, what this is all about, or the bottom line is sort of that age verification, you know, is a really good thing. It just has to be done correctly. And the thing is that the way that we're, you know, what we've just been talking about for the last couple of minutes is that right now we're seeing that it's not being done correctly. Like it's not being done in an effective way, that's for sure. I think that, you know, right now it's, it's a really tempting and really easy pathway for lawmakers to sort of just do this copy paste of, you know, because these bills, pretty much, with the exception of a couple of, you know, not so noteworthy tweaks, are essentially carbon copies of each other, right? Like they're all kind of written with very similar language with very similar, if not identical, kind of recommendations for implementation. There's, there's no one really breaking the box when it comes to age verification law. So this, the, the D. Aaa, the Digital Age Assurance act really does change the way that we're having this conversation. So it proposes that age verification happen once on the device, part of the operating system of the device. So if you're, I know it's not so popular anymore, but if you're an Apple user, which I am, it would basically it would be in your, in your settings where you have, you know, like, for instance, I have, like my credit cards are linked to my phone, my biometric information is linked to my phone. You know, for better or for worse, I do trust my device with that sensitive information. My phone will tell me when I'm getting my next period. Like, these are all things that I have willingly put into into my device. And so essentially you would age verify once. That would be part of your user settings in the os. So you would essentially show your ID one time. It would not be kept like as part of the record or whatever. It wouldn't be staying on there permanently. It would come on as just kind of like a pass fail. And then that way your device kind of acts as this key to unlock all of these different platforms. So not only is it safer, it's a lot more effective and it provides a much better user experience too, right? Where quite simply the idea would be that when you buy a new device or even this could be rolled out for people with existing devices, like if you already have your phone, you already have your computer, like the majority of folks, it would just be rolled out as part of an OS update, right? Where by Default, everything is locked down. So you would not be able to access any porn site, you would not be able to access any gambling or gaming site until you do the verification. And then from there on in it's a pass fail thing. A kid would not be able to complete the exercise because they would not be able to prove to their device that they're of age. And then so those sites would become, you know, sort of permanently inaccessible to them until they turn legal age and then able to go through the process. Yeah. When they turn 18.
- [48:58]
B
And this proposal is saying this should be like law, like you should have to do this if you're going to give a kid a phone or what's the.
- [49:04]
C
It's basically it's, it's, it's an alternative to, you know, because I think where we're at right now is that age verification law is, you know, it's here to stay, it's, it's not going anywhere. And again like I think the concept and this is something that we really do believe at Alo and at pornhub that like age verification. Yes. Like it's an overdue, it's, we're overdue for it. Like there's, there's so many different things that are finally happening, I think that are contributing to making the Internet a safer space for everybody. Like we've seen a lot of not so great things, you know, happen over the course of the year that have caused real harm and real damage to folks. And I think that you know, implementing correctly done age verification can be, you know, it's a relief to parents, it's going to make it safer for kids and you know, it's, it's a viable solution. So if we're having the conversation, if we're going to do this, then I think we should do it right. And this I think is the way to go.
- [50:05]
B
Yeah. And it's interesting because like the device level stuff is available to like parents now. Like you could do that on your kids phone today and it would keep them off of adult sites in general. If you're, that, if you're that worried about it. I mean you could like if you're gonna give a child a phone, like maybe you should set up the parental controls. I don't know. Like that seems pretty easy.
- [50:26]
C
It does. And like, I think, you know, that's also part of the problem is that those conversations are like that part of the narrative I think is missing. Right. I was so happy to see actually just a couple of days ago in the New York Times there Was like a great article. It was short, it was to the point, but it was not scary. It was like, look like you do need to talk to your kids about porn. Like kind of part of the general sort of media literacy standpoint where. And it's again, it's not just limited to adult. Like there's a lot online that you know, kids are not ready to see that they could potentially stumble upon or have sent to them. And I was really happy to see, you know, this like major news outlet provide, you know, talking points for parents to empower, to empower parents and to, you know, show them like there are conversations that you have to have with your kid that are not going to be fun. That might be a little bit intimidating. But like, here's how you can do it.
- [51:25]
B
Yeah, yeah. And it means I. The state of like sex education is already so trash, at least in the States. I don't know. Did you get any like comprehensive sex education when you were a kid or how was it in Montreal?
- [51:39]
C
Well, I went to a private Catholic girls school.
- [51:42]
B
Oh hey, so did I. It wasn't Catholic, but it was Christian.
- [51:47]
C
Yeah, so we had a little bit of it. But like, you know, going back to elementary school, like I have like this is like seared in my memory. Like I remember my teacher saying that like you will know that you are pregnant if like you have your period. But then the next day it stops.
- [52:05]
B
And I was just like wrong.
- [52:07]
C
Yeah. And this was like a 60 something year old woman like telling us like innocent, you know, at that age you're like 11, 12.
- [52:14]
B
Yeah.
- [52:15]
C
And like I remember like having a conversation with my mom about it and she was like, no.
- [52:20]
B
Yeah, it's like, let me tell you.
- [52:23]
C
Yeah, so that's the other thing too is that like, you know, I can understand like when you're hoping and trusting that like there's you know, different educators in a child's life that are hopefully imparting correct information and.
- [52:35]
B
Yeah, there's just not. I mean, yeah, I think now in the States it's like if you talk about consent or gender or any of these topics or sexuality in school, you are risking your job and parents aren't doing it either. And I like, I was definitely told like if you have sexual, get an STD and go to hell, it's like cool, that's useful information and definitely setting me up for like a healthy relationship with it in the future. But yeah, it's just, it's, I mean it's, it feels. And you like, you talk, you guys talk about this, I think in the podcast a while back too. But like, the idea of like the bordering of the Internet is getting more and more intense. Like, these borders are very literal now where like, like we talked about, like in Louisiana you have to do it, but in like the next state over you don't. And like, it's just all feels very much like it's closing in, but at the same time there's just not that kind of education happening anywhere. So of course kids are turning to like porn because they need, they're curious, they need someone to tell them what's going on here. But the adults who are responsible for it are failing. And to put it all on age verification via identity and these, these laws is, I don't know, it all feels like a confluence of surveillance and repression and regression. That is a trend that I'm definitely concerned about, to say the least. Is there anything that you're watching out for in the next year? I know things are pretty, I don't know, fucked here in the States. So are you concerned about any of this project 2020, 25 stuff? Like, what's kind of on your radar? I guess. I know right now we're all kind of like in a wait and see.
- [54:16]
C
Situation, but yeah, I think that's very much the same. Like, I'm. I'm trying not to be doom and gloom about it at all. I think that, you know, one of the things that I do love most about being part of this community is it's a tremendously resilient community. It's a lot of creative people that continuously find, you know, solutions to the various challenges and different bullshit, quite frankly, that gets thrown at us. So I'm really excited to hit the road at the beginning of next year and see everyone at AVN and see everyone at X Biz and, you know, just charge ahead. Like, there's a lot of really exciting stuff coming up. We have the pornhub Awards that'll be happening in a couple of months. We have some really exciting collaborations coming out in the fashion space. We're also making a fray into the beauty industry next year. So more, more to come. But yeah, I'm feeling really, really good about next year actually. Amazing.
- [55:11]
B
I could definitely see like a, like a waterproof mascara, pornhub sponsorship or something. There's a lot of ways you could go with that. But yeah, I'm excited to see what you guys do in the future.
- [55:22]
C
Thanks.
- [55:23]
B
I think it's, it's been, it's been an interesting couple years for you, obviously, but the future is looking, I don't know, a little bit chaotic. So thank you so much for walking us through what you're seeing.
- [55:35]
C
Yeah, my pleasure.
- [55:36]
B
Yeah. Thank you so much. Alex, is there anything you want to plug before we hit the road here or.
- [55:41]
C
No, I think we covered it all. Thank you.
- [55:43]
B
Yeah. Awesome. Okay.
- [55:44]
C
Oh, Terms of service Podcast. Duh. I should.
- [55:46]
B
Oh, yeah, the podcast. Yeah. Yeah, the podcast is really interesting and you have like a huge variety of guests on it. Every week is really interesting. Yeah, go check that out. As a reminder, four four Media is a journalist founded and supported by subscribers outlets. If you wish to subscribe to 404 Media and directly support this work, go to 404 Media co. You'll get unlimited access to our articles and an ad free version of this podcast. You also get to listen to this subscribers only section early. We talk about bonus stories every week. This podcast is made in partnership with Kaleidoscope. Another way to support us is by leaving a five star rating. Review the podcast. That stuff helps us a lot. If you liked it, share it. This has been 404 Media. We will see you again next time.