C (2:38)

Yeah.

B (2:38)

When we put them on sale, it was very much a pre order situation. It was not a, hey, you're going to get the scene in three to Five working days or shipping or whatever, but definitely looking forward to that being out. Should we move to the first story? Jason, do you want to take the lead on this one?

A (2:56)

Yeah, I mean, this is a very interesting story because the timing of you publishing it aligns with what happened in Minneapolis, which we will talk about, of course. So the story is inside ISIS tool to monitor phones in entire neighborhoods. Joseph, let's start with your story, and then maybe we can zoom out to the killing of Renee Goode. So, first of all, what did you obtain and what is this company? WeBlock.

B (3:27)

Yeah, so I'll just say I think we did mention this tool briefly on the podcast before, like, because I found it in contracting US Procurement records. So it's like, hey, ISIS just bought this tool and you can sort of figure it out. But this is obviously new and much more in detail because I obtained material that explains in a very granular sense how these systems work.

A (3:56)

Work.

B (3:57)

So there's plenty more detail in this article than we had before, and that applies not just to ISIS potential use of it, but obviously any government user of WeBlock and another tool called Tangles as well. I think Texas law enforcement agencies have it, maybe some other ones around the country as well, regional, if not local. But WeBlock is a location data tool. It comes from a company called Penlink. Previously it was run by a company called Cobwebs. They merged with Penlink, blah, blah, blah, whatever. But weblog is very, very much focused on location data. So. And we'll go into how they get the data in a minute. But it can track movements of mobile phones, essentially, from one. One location to another. You could look in a certain area, figure out what phones are there and that sort of thing.

A (4:55)

So there's no, there's no like, indication necessarily of where ICE is using this at, at the moment. Correct. Like, this is. This is sort of like how this tool works. You obtained some documents that explained what its specific features are. And as you mentioned, we knew that they had purchased this, but the, the news here is that now we know exactly, you know, some of its capabilities and what they can do. So what can an ICE officer do with Weblock and Tangles and what are some of the specific features?

B (5:30)

Yeah, so it make. WeBlock makes it really easy for an ICE official to manipulate and use this location data from mobile phones. So whereas ordinarily, if a law enforcement agency got a bunch of location data, say from a company called Ventel or Babel street, which we've covered before as well, this tool and maybe those have this as well. But we, again, we've seen the material for this. So you can push a button on the interface that will turn it almost into nighttime mode, and you can see where the phones went at night. And the material explicitly explains that, hey, if a phone is at this certain location overnight, and especially, you know, repeatedly over and over again, maybe that's the person's home. If you put into daytime mode, you click a little button for that and you follow the phone to where it is located during the day. Maybe that's their place of employment as well. You can even click a little button which provides the route. So you can see not just sort of the start and the end locations, their home and their potential workplace. You can see the actual routes that they took. So presumably there would be what highway they drove down, what road they went down, maybe if they walked or whatever. You could probably figure that out based on the speed as well. So it really allows an ISIS officer or any law enforcement official using this tool to really easily drill down on what phones are there, where they go, and then, of course, potentially who they belong to. And I guess just the last thing I'll say on the features is that it's not like they just get a list of phones and they click through and they go one by one. They can do that, in a sense, but what they also do is they draw a circle or another shape around a particular area and. And that is going to show, hey, this is all the phones that we have in that location at that day or across that hour or whatever it is. So it really can be used for both quite targeted surveillance if the target happens to be in this data set, or it can be used for quite broad surveillance as well.

A (7:47)

Yeah, I mean, I guess I want to be a little speculative here. I'm not saying you are. I mean, maybe you can talk about it, but with this tool, I mean, that's sort of the headline of the thing. It's like monitor phones in entire neighborhoods, so you can circle a whole neighborhood and it can give you information about the phones in that neighborhood. I mean, we have seen over the last week, and of course, honestly, over the last year, a lot of protests against ice, a lot of protests outside of ICE facilities, a lot of protests in, you know, neighborhoods where there have been clashes between people and ice, that sort of thing. I mean, it seems like an agency like ICE would be able to monitor protests sort of retroactively using a tool like this. Is there any indication that it could be used for something like that?

B (8:42)

Yeah, I Think that's totally fair. And I'll say two things. The third, well, actually, maybe three things. The first is that there is some local reporting coming out of Minneapolis that I saw and I think Sam saw as well. I still need to digest all. But there are reports or suspicions that ICE DHS may be using data to go after activists and intimidate them in some way. I'm still digesting that, so I can't go much further in depth than that. But I would definitely highlight that report and come out of npr. I think the second is that the tool was technically purchased for hsi Homeland Security Investigations. That is, of course, a part of ICE that's usually focused on criminal investigations, child abuse, cybercrime, money laundering, all of that sort of thing. That's kind of gone out of the window window now because there's this really interesting data that the Cato Institute keeps getting from inside ICE showing that something like 90% of HSI officials have been pushed over to the deportation, or rather the deportation mission. So HSI's equipment of investigative entity basically doesn't exist anymore. It's basically part of ISIS deportation arm. The reason I bring that up, though, is that if there was some sort of, you know, alleged assault of an ICE officer or there was a protest outside an ICE facility and ICE wanted to investigate people there, in my opinion, it might be HSI that would do that sort of investigation. Right. Like, that would probably be within their mandate somewhat. And HSI is the one that has bought this tool. Jason, were you going to say something?

A (10:23)

Well, yeah, I was going to say that they do a lot of workplace enforcement investigations. They actually always have, in addition to some of the child trafficking, drug trafficking investigations that they really specialized in in previous administrations. But we've seen this administration really focus on enforcement at workplaces. I mean, there's been videos coming out, you know, people getting snatched out of Target during their shift. There was the case where they seized a bunch of people from a Hyundai plant in Georgia, things like that. And so workplace investigations have been a big part of Trump's deportation campaign. And hsi, that's like what they have specialized in traditionally.

B (11:12)

Yeah. And then the last thing I would say on the protest stuff is that the independent journalist Jack Paulson previously got some other material related to Cobwebs. Again, that was the company that first developed this tool before it moved to Penlink, I believe it was Cobwebs branded stuff he got. But that was basically, it sounded like marketing material or training guides where Cobwebs itself was Saying, hey, look, you could use this to monitor Black Lives Matter and protests. So that's not the same as ICE saying, or DHS saying, we're going to use it for this. But the people making, developing and selling the tool are explicitly telling potential customers, hey, you could use this to protest.

A (11:55)

Right, right, right. Okay, so let's talk about where this data is coming from. I think perhaps we can't say exactly for sure where it's coming from, but you've done a lot of reporting on location data, commercial location data sales over the years and it seems like with many of these companies the data usually comes from the same types of places and that has to do with the advertising industry and it has to do with location harvesting from apps usually. So. So is that the case here? Is that what we expect is here?

B (12:31)

Yeah, it looks like that's the case. It is not. I'm almost certain about this. It's not coming from telecoms like your AT&T, your Verizon's teacher mobile, that sort of thing. Police now need a warrant to go get location data from that after the landmark Carpenter 2018 case. This according to a internal ICE legal analysis the ACLU got and shared with us discussing location data. ICE believes it doesn't need a warrant essentially to get that information that lines up with other agencies. We've covered loads of secrets service. I bring that up here because in that legal analysis they were talking about Ventel, another of these location data companies, and Cobwebs and Panelink and weblock like they're in that space. So that leads me to there are two main ways that commercial location data companies get this sort of data. The first is software development kits, SDKs embedded in ordinary apps. So that weird weather app you got, the weird storm chasing one you downloaded five years ago and forgot about and gave location data permissions to that might have code in it, where the SDK developer then harvests the location data and then sells it to companies. The other one, and I think the much more likely one is that it's connected through real time bidding. So rtb, whenever there is an advertisement, a programmatic advert being placed inside an app in front of you, there is this near instantaneous and basically invisible to a normal person process where all of these companies are trying to outbid one another to get their ad in front of a certain demographic. A side effect of the online ad industry is that a bunch of companies can simply monitor that process. They don't even need to get an advert in front of some in front of somebody, they can just sit there and sort of siphon the data off. And that can include, and often does include location data and a specific person's unique advertising id. So there you have, hey, this person moved to here, they moved to here, moved to here. And also we have a unique identifier that connects all of that location data together. The reason I say I think that's the most likely is that I just think SDK stuff has like gone out of fashion in the location data industry. When I covered that, it was mostly like 2020, 2021, that sort of time when we exposed a company called X Mode that was collecting location data related to a Muslim prayer app and selling it to U.S. military contractors. That was like one of the last SDK based location data companies that I really remember. Yeah, there were a couple more afterwards, but it just seems that RTB is the way now. We got that from a hack of Gravy, the parent company of Ventol. It showed a bunch of apps that were subject to RTB data harvesting. We published a big list of those. We've covered another company called Patterns out of Israel, and we got them kicked out of the Google advertising ecosystem after we showed, yes, they were getting data from RTB. So I think that is most likely how WeBlock is getting its data and by extension how ICE is getting that data.

A (15:53)

Yeah, Joe, So this is obviously all kind of happening in the context of broader crackdowns by ICE and then of course the huge national conversation spurred in the killing of Renee Nicole Goode in Minneapolis last week. You want to talk real quick about how we covered that with this piece? DHS is lying to you.

B (16:16)

Yeah, it's difficult to cover because of course we're not on the ground and we don't feel like we have to cover everything. But of course this case is monumentally important. For me, it was the disconnect between seeing these videos come out of the shooting of Renee Goode first from sort of angles further away, and then actually later after we published the first person perspective of Jonathan Ross, the ICE official themselves. Obviously a huge disconnect between what those videos showed and the statements that dhs. DHS head were putting out the Trump himself as well. And they just simply did not line up. I think people intuitively who probably listen to us and read our website probably agree with that, probably saw the same thing. And subsequently you had Bellingcat come out and do amazing technical forensic analysis. There was New York Times as well. They did their own sort of visual investigation as well. I think those are always good and they're always amazing to see and they're always helpful. Here. You did not need Bellingcat of the New York Times to tell you what was going on. You could watch the videos with your own eyes and that's what we encourage people to do. Provided links to them in the piece, explained what we thought and happened based on those videos. And of course, as the headline says, DHS is lying to you and absolutely believe that based on the statements and the videos themselves. Let's. Sorry, were you going to say something?

A (17:49)

I was just going to say, I mean, this is going to continue to be probably one of, if not the most discussed stories this year. So we're going to stay on it. But yeah, let's leave that there and move to the second half of the show.

B (18:02)

Absolutely. When we come back, Emmanuel and Sam are going to talk us about, talk us through some of their recent GROK and X coverage. We'll be right back after this.

A (18:24)

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B (23:00)

All right, and we are back. Emmanuel, we'll start with you. The headline of this piece you wrote is Inside the Telegram channel, Jailbreaking Grok over and over again. So on the podcast last time we spoke about Jason's piece and GROK and how it's been using to undress people, put people in bikinis, also some straight up child sexual abuse imagery as well. So how does this Telegram channel differ to what we were sort of talking about last time?

C (23:35)

The short version is that it? The users there and the prompts they use to create images with Grok that it's not supposed to create are much more sophisticated. The prompts that we saw on X were very straightforward. They were simple texts like put her in a bikini, take her clothes off, things like that. And I think we can say now, based on the reaction from Musk and X and mostly the things that they are not doing in response to this, that they consider this to be pretty much a legitimate okay use of Grok on the Telegram channel. The reason it exists, it is part of a larger community where people create non consensual AI generated images of real people. And there are various rooms within the community where people focus on different celebrities, they focus on different types of what they call edits which are using Photoshop, using AI to manipulate images. Then there's one channel that is just dedicated to prompts for different AI image generators and basically how to find loopholes within them in order to produce non consensual images with mainstream tools that are not supposed to do that. We've reported on this thing many times. The most notable example was at 2014 when this image of Taylor Swift went viral. People were using Microsoft's designer tool in order to make that image. And the loophole there was basically misspelling her name and describing sexual acts without using any explicit terms, which is kind of like the first line of defense that AI image generators have to prevent abuse. But it is a primitive, not very good way to stop that. And those filters get better. But this community where that thousands of people participate keep coming up with extremely elaborate, more sophisticated prompts to do that, which can produce far worse things than what we've seen on X. On X We've seen sub nudity images of women in bikinis. And this is straight up hardcore porn images as well as videos.

B (26:27)

Gotcha. Yeah. I'm glad you brought up the Taylor Swift one, because it's interesting. Whereas before with that, you found this telegram group and you sort of drew a fruit line between this group abusing a certain tool and then making those images and then sort of eventually bleeding out publicly onto Twitter. And obviously that was a huge case at the time. I think people continue to think about it. So there is a fruit line there. What's a little bit different here is like, in some ways there didn't need to be a through line because the prompts on X are just, hey, Grok, undress this. Like, it's barely a prompt for the. For sort of the. For the public stuff. But what you're saying is that in the telegram group there are still people who are actually making Grok do way, way worse stuff. It's just that it's not sort of reaching X as the public.

C (27:22)

It's not on the surface yet, which I think is part of the deal. And there's probably two reasons for that. One is it does take time for this stuff to trickle out from these pretty closed groups on fairly obscure corners of the Internet to the mainstream, which is what happened with the Taylor Swift incident. So I think it's only a matter of time until you start seeing this type of thing in your feed. But then also the baseline for GROK is so bad that there's like less of a need.

A (28:01)

Right?

C (28:02)

So it's like you can get Grok to do pretty bad things without trying hard at all, as you said. So I think a lot of people don't even consider the possibility that you can make far worse images if you just went looking for the right prompt, but if you did, you'd find them.

B (28:21)

Yeah, and I'm trying to think how to phrase this, but the fact that it's not the public version of Grok on X, generating straight up hardcore pornography of people works in the technique's favor, in it becoming basically a meme. Like it's abuse and it's horrible, but it's taken on this new character on X where even people, sex workers who are selling their only fans or whatever it may be, they're leveraging it, or other accounts are sort of piling in, like, oh, I wish Grok could unblur this video. And then Grok does it. And of course that's to drive engagement to an OnlyFans page or whatever. If people were using Grok to generate really hardcore stuff, it might not become a meme. It would just be like, oh, this is horrible, horrible abuse. You see what I'm getting at?

C (29:11)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I guess just a few more things to note about the group. Like I said, I think we can say, judging on Grok's response, that it's just not taking this problem seriously and maybe doesn't consider it a problem.

B (29:26)

Well, X's response.

C (29:28)

X's response. Yeah, sorry. But you can see in the Telegram channel that GROK X, xai, they, they do have their limits in terms of what they would allow people to generate because the general flow of the chat is somebody comes in with a prompt that they find that works pretty well and is able to generate very graphic images. Everyone gets really excited, everybody starts generating it. I don't know exactly what is happening on the GROK end of things because they will not respond to our request for comment. But I imagine that they start to notice that there's a lot of bad generations and then they do some investigating and they close the loophole. I can tell that the loophole is closed because people start reacting and saying like, this is working less, this is working less now it's not working at all. Then everybody's like, brock is dead, dead game. And then somebody comes in with a new exploit and the whole cycle begins again. The other thing to note is the channel is dedicated to prompts. And in the couple of years that have been in there, people go from app to app. Right. Like we talked about Microsoft Designer, people have tried OpenAI, people have tried Google Gemini, people have tried all these different types of app. I would say for like the past three to six months, the entire channel is devoted to Grok. Like there is no other discussion of any other app because they're having so much success with this, with this one app.

B (31:14)

Very interesting. You answered one of my other questions, so I'll just ask this before we move to Sam's piece, but what are people in the Telegram channel worried about when it comes to almost this wave of focus that people have on sort of the public GROK generations? Are they, are they scared something's going to happen because of that?

C (31:36)

Yeah. I included a quote from the chat in the story where people were worried that all the attention that the images on X were getting were going to negatively impact the community and that either Grok would really lock things down or there would be increased interest in the exploits and somehow there would be like a crackdown on the community. And this is something Sam and I often see when reporting on this stuff and breaking news. I just went to check the community to see if there would be anything new to add to the podcast and it has been dissolved. It's unclear at this point if it has been banned or that they decided to move on on their own. But a few days ago, someone came in, one of the admins came in and they said, hey, follow this Twitter account, follow this subreddit, because we might shut this place down and we'll have to regroup somewhere else. And that has come to pass. The group has dissolved, the Telegram channel is gone. But I'm already in the new one. Right. So the problem continues. And this isn't the first time that this has happened. Like I've seen it happen with this community specifically, several times over.

B (32:58)

Right, yeah. So it's not like they were moving to Reddit as a replacement for Telegram. They were using that as a bridge to get to the new Telegram because of course you need to point people there. That makes sense. Sam, let's just briefly talk about your one, which I think came after Emmanuel's. The headline was Masterful Gambit, which I do love. I hope people get the joke. I'm pretty sure they do, but I saw someone in my mentions being like, masterful Gambit. What you need to be more online. I'm sorry, to digest our material. Masterful Gambit Musk attempts to monetize Grok's wave of sexual abuse imagery. Really, really wild. What did X do here exactly, when it comes to monetization of this stuff?

E (33:42)

Yeah. So all last week, and I'll try not to reiterate what you guys have talked about last week in the pod also. But all last week, this is like the only story that was happening in AI, specifically in any of my timelines, was the AI abuse imagery coming out of Grok. So on Friday when I logged on, I saw a couple outlets. It was the Guardian deadline. A couple others had headlines that were essentially Grok turns off image generator for most users after outcry over sexualized AI imagery. That's the Guardian. That's like Elon Musk restricted Grok. The images aren't able to be made anymore following all of this outcry against the bad uses of it that we just talked about. So I was like, well, that's interesting and probably not right, knowing how this platform operates and how its owner operates. So it turns out that actually what was happening was Grok was giving a reply to people who weren't X premium or like paid X Users saying that image generation and editing were turned off and limited only to paying subscribers to X. And then it would give a link to how to subscribe, which is not turning it off. And it's definitely not some kind of like accountability or mea culpa to the fact that it's been generating these horrific images. It's just pushing people to pay for it. And I would say, I mean, I was looking at like the searches for like, make her and bikini and, you know, clear tape, the things that Emmanuel was just saying on Twitter where people were asking Grok to do that stuff and it was like multiple times a second people were asking for this. So obviously Elon said, hey, here's a convenient way or someone on. I don't. I mean, I say Elon as shorthand for the ex monetization team, who should also be quite ashamed for all of this. But the. The move is to just push people to pay for the service, which is something that Elon's been trying to do specifically ever since he bought the thing is get people to pay for this service, X premium service, which gives you more boosts to replies and things like that. Gives you a little check mark, you know, whatever. So, yeah, that was absurd to me that anyone would report that it was turned off. And then pretty quickly after that, the Verge wrote a really good story about how it's not actually turned off. I was in the middle of writing mine when I saw that. So you can pay $8 a month to still get these images generated in your feed and show them to everyone is kind of a crucial part of this. It's not like only premium subscribers can see the images that are generated by Grok by other paying subscribers. Everyone can see them. They're still in everyone's feed. So what is it really like? It's not limiting any harm. It's not actually doing anything good or useful. It's just making more money for the platform. And as of. I just checked while we were talking, it's not the case anymore. Anybody can make these again. It's not giving that reply anymore. Yeah, I mean, it's. It never went away. Oh, my camera just died. It never went away. It's always been this way and now it's. It's fully back for people who don't pay for the platform. You can ask it to put her in a bikini or whatever other vile shit you want. And then a lot of the worst stuff is obviously on Telegram, like Emmanuel said, and on the app itself, which I've been trying to break for about a week with my own images.

B (37:31)

But.

E (37:33)

Yeah, that's where the really, the really nasty shit is.

B (37:36)

So.

E (37:37)

Yeah, yeah.

B (37:39)

I mean from all the reporting we've seen recently, Musk has a real problem with sort of the blowback that this bikini Grok wave has received. Like he fundamentally seems, doesn't believe in it with his fundamentally misguided ideas of what free speech is and all of that, which we don't really need to get into. He seems to have a kindergarten kid's understanding of what that actually means. But from what you just said, it looks like, well, we'll just quickly move it to paid subscribers as a band aid. But actually no, I don't want that. I want to now go back and UK maybe investigating it. I think there's some ofcom stuff as well which is sort of this government body in the UK investigating. Still in the app stores. Right. I mean just very, very briefly, you pinged Apple and Google, right? I think asking them about this. Did they ever get back to you?

E (38:33)

No, of course not. No, they never will. And these apps, this particular app, Grok is all over. It's really popular on Apple and Google on their app stores and Apple and Google very specifically forbid this type of content. Porn in general, but also non consensual pornographies against the rules. So yeah, I guess it's okay if it's a really popular app, which is usually the ML that we see in the app stores. It's like if it's, if it's making them money, it can stay.

B (39:06)

Yeah. Or owned by, you know, a very, very rich guy and then he'll be allowed to stay.

C (39:13)

Can I just ask the.

B (39:14)

Yes, go ahead, please.

C (39:16)

The incident has pulled me back to X just to look at it in a way that I haven't in a few months. And I shouldn't be surprised and yet I was surprised by, by how. God, like I don't even know how to describe it. It's as if you're swimming in like the outbrain ad gutter ads of the Internet. It just like very extreme, very pornographic and in this case non consensual. And it's like am I the only one who is not looking at X regularly at this point?

B (40:00)

I mean I still check it.

C (40:02)

Yeah, I think it's a, it was a good reminder that it's like I don't want to and it's not useful for me very much because I don't know, I don't know any like interesting people who post interesting things there. But I it was kind of a good reminder to go back and look at it because a lot of people do. And it's just a, obviously a very different picture of the world than what you get on on Blue sky or Mastodon or whatever.

A (40:28)

I mean, I look at it for that reason for like what the is going on in this world reasons like usually for articles. But in my like spare time, I do not like hang out on Twitter in a way that I used to.

B (40:44)

Yeah, absolutely. For the best, I think. All right, we'll leave that there. If you're listening to the free version of the podcast, I'll now play us out. But if you are a paying 404 media subscriber, we're going to talk about a really, really wild story from Jason about Flock and police inadvertently exposing millions of license plates that they were investigating. And of course by extension people, you can subscribe and gain access to that content. 404 Media co. As a reminder, 404 Media is journalist founded and supported by subscribers. If you do wish to subscribe to 404 Media and directly support our work, please go to 404 Media co. You'll get unlimited access to our articles and an ad free version of this podcast. You'll also get to listen to the Subscribers only section where we talk about a bonus story each week. This podcast is made in partnership with Kaleidoscope and Alyssa Midcalf. Another way to support us is by leaving a five star rating and review for the podcast. That stuff really helps us out. This has been 404 Media. We'll see you again next week.