The Websites An ICE Contractor is Monitoring

Summary

The 404 Media Podcast: Episode Summary Title: The Websites An ICE Contractor is Monitoring
Release Date: March 19, 2025
Host/Authors: Joseph Cox, Sam Cole, Emmanuel Mayberg

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Introduction

In this episode of The 404 Media Podcast, hosts Joseph Cox, Sam Cole, and Emmanuel Mayberg delve into pressing issues at the intersection of technology, surveillance, and scientific research. Skipping over the advertisements and introductory segments, the discussion centers around two major stories: the extensive online surveillance conducted by an ICE contractor and the challenges faced by American scientists leading to initiatives by French universities to attract them.

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Story 1: The Websites an ICE Surveillance Contractor is Monitoring

Overview

The episode kicks off with Sam Cole introducing a headline-grabbing story: "The 200+ Sites an ICE Surveillance Contractor is Monitoring." This leads to an in-depth exploration of Shadow Dragon, a private U.S. company functioning as a surveillance contractor or an open-source intelligence (OSINT) firm.

Shadow Dragon and Its Tool, SocialNet

Joseph Cox explains, “Shadow Dragon is a private US company and I suppose you could call it a surveillance contractor. Another would be an open source intelligence company” (04:00). The company's primary tool, SocialNet, is designed to scrape data from various online platforms in real-time. Unlike static databases like Clearview AI, SocialNet operates live, pulling data upon request without maintaining a persistent repository.

Functionality and Capabilities

SocialNet operates through a user-friendly interface where clients can input specific data points—such as usernames, email addresses, or phone numbers—and receive aggregated information from numerous websites and social media platforms. Cox elaborates, “You enter a phone number, you then see where else that phone number is being used” (05:43), highlighting the tool's efficiency in tracking an individual's online footprint.

Impact on Privacy and Surveillance

Sam Cole emphasizes the alarming extent of surveillance capabilities: “...ICE is using a tool like this that could just kind of dig through all of your online activity and find anything that could be construed or twisted...” (08:08). The tool’s ability to monitor over 200 websites, including platforms like OnlyFans, eBay, and niche forums, raises significant privacy concerns.

Industry and Government Clients

Shadow Dragon isn't limited to ICE; their client list includes various government agencies such as the State Department, Fish and Wildlife Service, DEA, and even the FBI. Cox notes, “They moved to Shadow Dragon in part for the price, which is funny because you call these capabilities and do all these sorts of things. And at the end of the day sometimes it just comes down to, well, this one's like 10k cheaper” (12:46), underscoring the competitive nature of surveillance contracting.

Corporate Responses and Reactions

When questioned, many companies on the surveillance list responded by citing violations of their terms of service regarding data scraping. For instance, Chess.com stated, “We do not permit the use of personal information from our users without a valid legal basis and compliance with applicable laws” (19:47). Meta, Snapchat, and others echoed similar sentiments, pointing to their policies against unauthorized data scraping.

Shadow Dragon’s Defense

Shadow Dragon countered these criticisms by asserting that their tool does not log customer inquiries or store retrieved data, thereby claiming compliance with privacy settings: “Shadow Dragon doesn't log customer inquiries or the resulting data, so we can't provide information that violates the privacy settings...” (22:31).

Conclusion on Surveillance Implications

Sam Cole concludes the discussion on Shadow Dragon by highlighting the broader implications of such surveillance tools, especially in the context of increased ICE activities and potential misuse in targeting marginalized communities.

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Story 2: NASA, Yale, and Stanford Scientists Consider “Scientific Exile” as French University Offers Support

Background

Emmanuel Mayberg transitions to a concerning development in the American scientific community. He reports on a program initiated by Aix Marseille University in France, aimed at supporting American scientists whose research is hindered by recent U.S. political policies.

Initial Announcement

In early March, Aix Marseille University announced the Safe Place for Science program, providing a sanctuary for researchers whose work has been stifled by administrative actions in the United States. Emmanuel notes, “The university is inviting American researchers to come do this research in France... both to support the scientists and also to support this research, which in many cases is about climate health, things that will benefit all of humanity” (27:14).

Program Expansion Due to High Demand

Following the initial announcement, substantial interest from over 25 scientists across leading American institutions propelled the university to expand the program. Emmanuel shares, “They've heard from a lot of scientists... they're working on expanding the program and working with the government to get more funding and arrange housing...” (32:04).

Personal Accounts and Impact

Emmanuel interviewed a participating scientist who is in the application process. While the individual could not disclose specific details, Emmanuel conveys the urgency and necessity driving scientists to seek opportunities abroad: “Their funding was pulled because the work overlaps with some concept of minority focus... the only option is to look for other countries, other universities that are still interested in doing this kind of research” (33:47).

Potential Brain Drain and Long-Term Consequences

Joseph Cox raises concerns about a potential "brain drain," comparing the situation to historical instances where scientists fled oppressive regimes: “If this country doesn't have the draw for people to research cancer and anything... a lot of progress is being made at these places that are no longer getting funding” (36:21). Emmanuel echoes these fears, stressing that the U.S. may be undermining its position as a scientific powerhouse, leading to long-term detrimental effects on research and innovation.

Future Coverage Plans

Looking ahead, Emmanuel plans to continue investigating the repercussions of these policy changes, including the migration of talent and the future landscape of scientific research in the U.S.: “What is it going to look like for the rest of the world for the US to not be the center of so much scientific progress?... interesting to follow how this all shakes out” (39:11).

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Conclusion

The episode wraps up with reflections on the serious implications of both extensive government surveillance and the erosion of scientific funding and support within the United States. Hosts emphasize the importance of investigative journalism in uncovering these hidden aspects of technology and policy, urging listeners to support 404 Media to sustain such critical reporting.

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Notable Quotes

• Rachel Toback on DeleteMe: “[...] attackers use this data to target employees with phishing messages and AI-powered phone scams” (00:00).

• Jermaine Scott on SocialNet: “SocialNet is just one example of the unchecked surveillance ecosystem that lacks any meaningful transparency, oversight or accountability...” ([Sam Cole, 08:08]).

• Chess.com’s Statement: “We do not permit the use of personal information from our users without a valid legal basis and compliance with applicable laws” (19:47).

• Shadow Dragon’s Defense: “Shadow Dragon doesn't log customer inquiries or the resulting data, so we can't provide information that violates the privacy settings...” (22:31).

• Emmanuel on U.S. Scientific Impact: “It is a hard, science, important field of research that they're in... their funding was pulled because the work overlaps with some concept of minority focus...” (35:30).

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This comprehensive summary captures the essence of the episode, highlighting the key discussions on surveillance practices by ICE contractors and the troubling exodus of American scientists seeking refuge and support in foreign institutions due to domestic policy setbacks.

Transcript

[Rachel Toback]

In today's world, data breaches happen all the time. And even the most secure companies can't always protect their employees personal information from ending up in the wrong hands. That's where Delete me comes in. DeleteMe is a service that removes your employees sensitive information from hundreds of data broker websites, sites where hackers can find phone numbers and emails within seconds. Rachel Toback, CEO of Social Proof Security, says attackers use this data to target employees with phishing messages and AI powered phone scams. But Delete Me makes it harder for these bad actors by scrubbing your employees details regularly. It's simple, attackers are lazy. If it's too hard to find contact info, they'll move on to easier targets. DeleteMe takes care of this for you, doing the heavy lifting so you don't have to. And over time, they keep removing the information so it stays down, protecting your team from constant exposure. If your business has a social presence or deals with clients, you need DeleteMe. Visit DeleteMe.com 404Media and start safeguarding your team's information today. That's DeleteMe.com 404Media.

[Joseph Cox]

Hello and welcome to the 404Media podcast where we bring you unparalleled access to hidden worlds, both online and IRL. 404 Media is a journalist founded company and needs your support. To subscribe, go to 404 Media Co as well as bonus content every single week. Subscribers also get access to additional episodes where we respond to their best comments. Gain access to that content at 404 Media co. I'm your host Joseph and with me are two of the other 404 Media co founders. The first is Sam Cole.

[Sam Cole]

Hello.

[Joseph Cox]

And the other is Emmanuel Mayberg. Hello Emmanuel. You recently went on a podcast run by friends of ours, REMAP Radio. Do you just want to very briefly tell people what you did and maybe to direct them to it?

[Emmanuel Mayberg]

Yeah. So our good friends at ReMap, who are the folks who used to run Waypoint back when we all worked at Vice, have a podcast about homeownership and home renovations and just kind of like that everyday life stuff. And you all know very well because you live through this with me, but I went through a big unexpected renovation at my place because of a flood and me and Rob just talked about for two hours and it was really fun and very therapeutic for me. And hopefully if you care about that sort of thing, there's some useful advice and emotional support in that podcast for you.

[Joseph Cox]

And the reason I asked you to explain it is because yes, we're going to talk about tech now, like we do every week, and then we talk about all of this depressing stuff. And what you spoke about on REMAP radio was also very depressing in its own way. But sometimes if you just want to escape from tech, I don't know. Here's another fun podcast that one of us was on. So that's the reason I wanted to shout it out. But should we start talking about this week's stories?

[Sam Cole]

Yeah. And yeah, I really enjoyed that podcast. Just for another recommendation. Yeah. Let's get started with one of Joe's. The headline is the 200 plus sites an ICE surveillance contractor is monitoring. Yeah. So obviously the headline kind of explains what's going on, but I don't think you really grasp the breadth of the sites impacted here until you click through on the site. We have the list published in the story. It's a lot of sites, it's a long ass spreadsheet and it's a lot of stuff that you probably use. And I definitely use a lot of these. So yeah. Joe, what is Shadow Dragon? Just to kind of get us started here.

[Joseph Cox]

Yeah. So Shadow Dragon is a private US company and I suppose you could. Well, I call it a surveillance contractor. That's one way I phrase it. Another would be sort of a open source intelligence company. Open source intelligence, the acronym being osint. And these are companies that really focus on gathering data that's out there in the public or the semi public Internet. So you can imagine social media networks, forums, websites, sometimes even apps as well. And I was about to say, I think people would be surprised about how much information is available about out there. I don't think people are surprised by that anymore.

[Sam Cole]

Not the listeners of this podcast probably.

[Joseph Cox]

Exactly. Definitely not the listeners of this podcast. But just in general, I mean even ever since, I don't know, Cambridge Analytica, and I still think that was a massively overblown story for various reasons. But it kind of put into people's minds that, oh, this stuff I'm doing on social networks can be acquired by third parties. So Shadow Dragon isn't in the Cambridge Analytica world of sort of political analysis, all of that. It is much more gathering data which could be useful to government clients and to private clients. And I didn't even go into that in the story. But they do have private clients as well.

[Sam Cole]

Yeah. And they make a tool. Right. So that's kind of like how they get a hold of this data. The tool is called Social Net. Sounds innocuous. What does the tool do, though? Like, how does it work?

[Joseph Cox]

Yeah. So this was actually something that was kind of complicated to figure out. And I think we'll hear about that when I bring up what some of the impacted companies said. But in one way you could read it. The Shadow Dragon scrapes the Internet, and I'm going to the nuances in a second. But scraping obviously is where you access a service. Maybe there's a public Twitter feed, or maybe you have to log into bluesky or something like that to then access information, but you're doing it in sort of an automated way rather than just manually scrolling. What makes Shadow Dragon a little bit different is that you have this ui. You'll type in, say, a username, you know, just say Joseph Cox or whatever. And then it will bring up, well, do you Want to search BlueSky for that? Do you want to search Twitter for that? And all of that sort of thing. And the tool in this, I presume, pretty. Well, I've seen it, a pretty slick interface will then go and pull that data from those various websites. So you enter a phone number, you then see where else that phone number is being used. You enter an email address, you see maybe what sites it's been signed up to, that sort of thing. But there isn't a big database of data that Shadow Dragon has already scraped. It's not like Clearview AI, the facial recognition company, which has all of these billions or whatever of faces scraped from social media. Shadow Dragon socialnet is much more live. It's like, oh, it grabs the data when you want it to. Which again, maybe they're not going to violate scraping terms of service with that. Maybe they are. But the end result is that you have this tool for its customers, and rather than them having to go, oh, man, so what social network do I want to search and potentially, you know, accidentally revealing their identity, if they like somebody's post or whatever and reveal that they're being monitored. This tool allows Shadow Dragon's clients to search the web in a really, really efficient manner that is explicitly designed to track targets, movements, behavior, relationships, all of that sort of thing. It's like OSINT streamlined on steroids, it seems like.

[Sam Cole]

Yeah, I mean, obviously this is coming at a time that's a horrifying prospect anytime, but right now, because Shadow Dragon is an ICE contractor, right? And the main thing in the news lately, as it should be, is these promises, threats of mass deportation by the new administration, by the Trump administration. And then obviously, right after this story came out, we saw that ICE detained a lawful green card holder. And it's been happening more and more since then. So it's a really scary prospect to think that ICE especially, which is trying to hit these numbers, I guess some kind of quota that we don't know, to deport people essentially is using a tool like this that could just kind of dig through all of your online activity and find anything that could be construed or twisted or projected into being, you know, like threatening or criminal or whatever it is, or anti American or whatever you want to call it, siding with Hamas, which is what they accused Mahmoud Kahila of. So, yeah, and there's a really good quote in here in your story from Jermaine Scott. Jeremy Scott, sorry, he's at Electronic Privacy Information center, their project on surveillance insight. He said SocialNet is just one example of the unchecked surveillance ecosystem that lacks any meaningful transparency, oversight or accountability that allows the government to circumvent constitutional and statutory protections to access sensitive personal data. So he's basically saying this is like, this is just one example of the ridiculousness that is occurring. And it's great to bring that example to light. But ICE is not the only one using Shadow Dragon's services. Right? Like who else are their clients?

[Joseph Cox]

Yeah. And then just before on that, you mentioned the Mahmoud Khalil stuff. There is also the State Department plan, I guess we don't really have many specifics right now. It was reported in Axios somewhat recently that they're planning to use AI to automatically detect that sort of sentiment on students social media accounts. Now, there's no indication that Shadow Dragon is part of that. If anything, Shadow Dragon is actually quite explicit in its marketing. It doesn't use AI. It's almost we're the bespoke OSINT guys and you don't need to worry about all of that sort of thing. But it definitely sits in that context. But yeah, as you say, it's not just ice. You can go and find US Public US Government procurement data. You just scroll through it and there's the State Department again on there. There's the Fish and Wildlife Service. It's really funny whenever you write about a surveillance contractor, you'll find the normal ones, like all the federal law enforcement agencies, and then you'll find like a random one like Department of Agriculture or some shit. And it's just like, what are they using that for? And it must be. Well, I'm going to speculate a little bit here. Fish and Wildlife Service, I don't know, protecting wildlife, protecting the environment, something like that. Somebody doing Dumb crap around areas that they're trying to protect, that sort of thing. But then you have the normal ones like DEA is in there as well. And I think we previously reported, when we first wrote about Shadow Dragon a couple of years ago, at this point they briefly mentioned that they've worked with or they've had communications with the FBI as well. And we got some emails actually from epic, the privacy organization you mentioned previously, and they showed that parts of DHS moved from another tool called Babel X made by Babel street that we've spoken about before. And they moved over to Shadow Dragon in part for the price, which I think is funny because you'll look at all these emails you call these capabilities and all these surveillance contractors doing all these sorts of things. And then at the end of the day sometimes it just comes down to, well, this one's like 10k cheaper. So we're just going to get that probably. But yeah, I would say they're not like a massive US government contractor, but they're definitely picking up more customers in part with that DHS switch. But you know, I just check the databases every so often and I see Shadow Dragon again and again.

[Sam Cole]

Yeah, so let's kind of get into I guess, the specifics of the 200/ websites that you mentioned in the headline. I mean, I don't know, it's a lot. It's like if you asked me to list every website and app, this would be the list. It's everything from like OnlyFans and eBay to fur affinity. Gabriel Duolingo Bing Alltrails. My precious alltrails. My unproblematic alltrails.

[Joseph Cox]

Well, it's funny. Yeah, it's funny you bring up all trails because I think that's one way of looking at it. When I first got the list, it's almost overwhelming. Like, oh my God. Well, obviously always plans to publish the list because I think it's useful for people to see that either for their own activity or for, you know, policy experts or whatever. It's useful to see the specifics, but you can kind of pull it into brackets. And this is why I did in the article with the oil, the All Trails one. I almost put that sort of in the bracket of hobbies and that sort of thing. So as well as all trails, I put book crossing some book website, chess.com it's a pretty funny one, a cigar review site called Cigar Dojo. And by themselves you'll think, what? So they're going to know that I like cigars or I like Chess or something. Yeah, sure. But then on the other side, the All Trails one, I mean, maybe that could have some useful information about, oh, they, like, hikes in California or Southern California or Northern California.

[Sam Cole]

It's very, like, pinpointed location data, too. I mean, it follows you all along a very specific path.

[Joseph Cox]

And this didn't come up specifically in this list, but it does remind me, obviously, of the Strava leak. Strava. I think that was it, the running app. Right. And how that was revealing the location of sort of unpublished or undocumented U.S. military bases and that sort of thing. This isn't quite the same because it's not so much about revealing locations as it is about tracking an individual person. But if you know that somebody's using those sorts of hobby apps, maybe you can drill down and get some more information from them. And you mentioned OnlyFans as well. And I'd really be interested to hear your thoughts on this, Sam, but there's clearly some sex worker sites in here.

[Sam Cole]

Yeah, there's a lot of porn sites. There's like, every major porn site is on here. Pornhub, XHamster X videos, Eporner. Yeah, it's a ton of them.

[Joseph Cox]

Now, to be fair to Shadow Dragon, they do explicitly talk about. In lots of videos about combating child sexual abuse. I'm not saying that it's these sites specifically. You can see where there might be sexual sites in the list. That being said, you know, if ICE or DHS or whoever wishes to more aggressively go after sex workers, I mean, which they already do, right, for visa issues or anything else, they can just scrape only fans or just for fans. Does that sound right to you, Sam?

[Sam Cole]

Yeah, for sure.

[Joseph Cox]

Yeah.

[Sam Cole]

I mean, it's. It's something that, like, sex workers have been talking about for years, obviously, but. And it's kind of come to light in various different other contexts, too, where tools are being. Tools like this are being used. But it's like someone will be denied an Airbnb booking because they suspect that, like, the host knows that they produce porn. Or, you know, it's like someone who's trying to, like, get a custody battle for their kids is on OnlyFans. And then it's like the opposition finds out that they are on OnlyFans, and then they use that against them and they can't get their kids. It's just. Or like, even with, like, mortgages and things like that, it's something that sex workers deal with a lot. So it's definitely interesting to see porn sites on this list for sure. And it's also, it's a conversation that's happening in the adult industry in general is, you know, how much data should we legally be forced to give sites in general, but especially adult sites, because that's what's being targeted with the age verification stuff. It's like uploading an ID or a license to pornhub, for example. It's like, you know, these, like, leaks happen all the time. And then also you have systems like this that can kind of pry in and see your activity. So, yeah, it's for sure super, super interesting to see.

[Joseph Cox]

Yeah. And then apart from the normal social networks, and I mentioned like Cambridge Analytic and Facebook and stuff, it's like, well, now There's Snapchat and TikTok and various meta platforms and obviously they're all included in this list. It would be very surprising if they weren't. Then there's payment stuff, which I find especially interesting. I can't remember if Venmo's on there. Like, it must be.

[Sam Cole]

Yeah, it is.

[Joseph Cox]

Okay, so Venmo's on there and then PayPal, which I think owns Venmo. Right. And then stuff like Cash App or Buy Me a Coffee. Buy Me a Coffee is interesting because, like, wow, that's a relatively small one. But it's all these different brackets of sort of the OSINT that they're trying to do. And then I guess sort of the last one is just like there are some super niche sites or forums or whatever which are very directed towards specific demographics. So there's Black Planet on there, which is geared towards black people. There is FetLife, which is a fetish forum or website. And then I think there's a. Some furry stuff on that.

[Sam Cole]

There's some furry stuff on here.

[Joseph Cox]

Okay, thank you for corroborating.

[Emmanuel Mayberg]

It's more.

[Sam Cole]

Just confirm.

[Joseph Cox]

Yes, they will go to. They will go to any community or any site that they think could provide some value at some point in the future to their government or private clients. And I guess I would say, like, web scraping is pretty straightforward. You know, you can write a Python web scraper very, very quickly. Use. Use something called Beautiful Soup, you pass it, whatever. But as I think I've said on an earlier episode, if you're selling to the government, they're going to want the tool to be very reliable. So like Shadow Dragon is, I think, fairly. I'm assuming this, they're going in and they're making their scrapers quite dedicated and specific. It's like if I'm ice or whoever and I click, I want to search this profile, I don't want it to fuck up. I want it to be accurate and I want it to get the data very, very reliably. So that is presumably a lot of the work that Shadow Dragon is putting into this.

[Sam Cole]

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. You talked to or you got a hold of some of these companies that are on this list, right? Like, a lot of them I know did not reply. But what did the ones that did reply have to say for this?

[Joseph Cox]

Yeah, yeah, maybe I'll bring up the list of the ones that didn't reply as well. I can read that out in a second. But sort of. Well, on one hand, not surprisingly, a lot of the companies said, hey, this probably violates our terms of service on scraping and we don't like it. Probably the one that gave me the best statement, simply because it was detailed and on the record, was actually Chess.com, which said, you know, we were not previously aware that Shadow Dragon was scraping data from our site. And, you know, they say they do not permit the use of personal information from our users without a valid legal basis and compliance with applicable laws. And they said, you know, if it's done legally, fine. But like, we didn't know about this. Then you have meta saying the normal stuff, which is more pointing to the terms of service. Same with Snapchat as well, Pinterest. They all just point to the terms of service, which says, don't scrape us. You're not allowed to do that. And again, that sort of brings me back to the thing I mentioned a little bit higher, which is like, is this, in a legal sense, scraping, if it's not creating a database of the data? And I need to brush up on the Computer Fraud and Abuse act when it comes to scraping, because there's been a few cases somewhat recently in the past few years. But I'd be interested to see what people do now with that argument, because some of these companies clearly weren't that happy with it, you know, that being said, many didn't get back to me. Those are Twitch OnlyFans, Tinder, MyFitnessPal, GitHub, FlightAware, Etsy, eBay, Duolingo, Blue Sky, Apple, Amazon and Reddit. And the last one I'll say is that ProtonMail got back to me because they're also in the list. I didn't include their statement because I found it a little bit potentially misleading. They were like, send you unencrypted so nobody can read your emails. It's like, sure, but that's not what's being alleged here. They're talking about scraping what's potentially publicly available. My suspicion is that you enter an email address and it then checks whether you enter a username and then Shadow Dragon then checks. Well, is there a username associated with an email address on protonmail? That's my assumption, but I don't have that solid enough to put in a full article. But yeah, I just thought it was interesting and important and a good time to get this sort of list out. Basically, yeah.

[Sam Cole]

And what did Shadow Dragon have to say for themselves?

[Joseph Cox]

So when I asked Shadow Dragon if this constitutes scraping, and I sent the list of sites as well, they said Shadow Dragon doesn't log customer inquiries or the resulting data, so we can't provide information that violates the privacy settings of individual account owners using these platforms, including data they've deleted. So as I say in the article, in other words, the searches are performed live on the sites when the Shadow Dragon user requests it. And Shadow Dragon is saying, we're not violating terms of service because we're not like, making this massive database of information. I don't know. I guess we'll see what people make of that.

[Sam Cole]

You know, I'm sure this is not the end of Shadow Dragon.

[Joseph Cox]

No.

[Sam Cole]

Okay, let's leave that there, as Joe says, and then we'll be back with a story by Emmanuel about Moraine Drain Cue the music.

[Rachel Toback]

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[Joseph Cox]

Hey, it's Joseph again. If you're a new listener to the 404 Media podcast or even a long time one, you might not be aware of all of the impact our journalism has had recently or how we even got here in the first place. In 2023, the four of us quit corporate media to go independent. We were sick of working for a VC backed company that put profits before journalism, that gave birth to 404 media. Since then, we've stopped the spread of AI books in public libraries, triggered class action lawsuits against AI companies, got Congress to pressure big Tech in various ways, and we've even shut down surveillance companies. This real world impact is only possible because of our pay paying subscribers. As a journalist owned business, they are the engine that powers our journalism and where the vast, vast majority of our revenue comes from. So please consider signing up today for $10 a month or $100 a year at 404 Media Co membership and get bonus content every week and access to all of our articles. Thank you and enjoy the rest of the podcast. All right, and we are back. This story is written by Emmanuel. The headline is NASA, Yale and Stanford Scientists Consider quote, Scientific Exile, end quote. French University says. Sorry Emmanuel, this actually starts with another story you did. I can't remember if we spoke about it on the pod, but you did this first story about this French university and then this new one. So just briefly, what is this French university and what did they previously announce?

[Emmanuel Mayberg]

So in early March, I got a press release from this university in France called Aix Marseille University. It's the largest, I believe, research university in the country. And they announced this program called Safe Place for Science. It is something that they've done under other names in different forms over the years. But basically it exists to allow people, scientists, researchers in countries where they're no longer able to do their research because of the political situation and inviting them to this university in France in order to continue to do that research there, both to support the scientists and also to support this research, which in many cases is about climate health, things that will benefit all of humanity. And the difference is that this time the program is targeted specifically at American scientists, who we have heard from since Trump got into office and started issuing all these executive orders that we've reported on that ultimately result in pulling funding from universities, from government agencies that do research for clearly political reasons. We've done a lot of stories about how the administration is nuking the existence of any page or paper that mentions diversity because they have this crusade against dei, and that has obviously affected researchers as well. If you're studying, let's say, how cancer treatment is impacting people in certain communities, certain minorities, I've heard from people who have had that type of research funding pulled. So the university is inviting American researchers to come do this research in France. And it is not just words. They have 15 million euros allocated for this. And initially the plan was to have 15 scientists from the US come and do this research in France.

[Joseph Cox]

Gotcha. So that's the context. That's what happened before, and the broader climate in which, you know, scientists in the US Are finding that they probably can't continue their work. What happens now? Basically, the university had an update, right?

[Emmanuel Mayberg]

Yeah. So I wrote that story. And honestly, the reason I wrote it is because the fact that a French university would offer this is just sort of humiliating to the United States in a way. I mentioned this in that initial story, but when we think about scientists moving to different countries to continue their research, like the two examples that come to mind is in Nazi Germany, a lot of Jewish scientists fled Germany to the US to continue doing their research. That plays a big part in Oppenheimer, the movie. If you've seen that.

[Joseph Cox]

Thank you for making that current. So.

[Emmanuel Mayberg]

It'S a good portrait of that type of scientists and why they would move. And then the other example is obviously the Cold War and Russian scientists defecting to the West. Like, that was a big thing that was happening at the time. It is not something that, as far as I know, we've seen happen from the US to other countries. Usually people come here to do advanced research at private companies, at universities, at government agencies. Historically, America has been the draw for that type of thing and not pushing people away. That's why I thought it was notable. But I kind of wrote it and moved on. It seemed a little bit like, if you read the wording of the French press release, there's a little bit of. I don't know. It's hard for me not to read it as mocking the Us a little bit.

[Joseph Cox]

And you don't know. It is sometimes hard to tell that, yes, they say they've put money on the line, but have. You don't know necessarily how seriously to take it. Not through any fault of their own, just because I think we're pretty skeptical people until this next story where, I mean, it looks like people are interested. Right?

[Emmanuel Mayberg]

Yeah. So two things happen. So I published this story, and I immediately start hearing from scientists in the US who are like, hey, like, I just read your story. Like, can I get more information? Like, is there somebody I can talk to and how do I get involved in this? Which was surprising. And. And I just pointed them at the university's website if they were interested.

[Joseph Cox]

Surprising, especially because you don't work at the university, for a start.

[Emmanuel Mayberg]

Yeah, but it just, like, it's a level of interest. Right. There was like a real level of interest. And I was like, notable. I'll just make a note of that. But a week later, the university put out another press release, and they were just clear about the fact that they've heard from a lot of scientists, and it's scientists at the leading American universities and agencies here. And I think they said they've heard from, like, 25. From researchers at 25 leading institutions and that they're already working. There's so much interest that they're working on expanding the program and working with the government to get more funding and arrange housing for these people. And then also possibly working with other European universities who can absorb all these scientists. Because the way they describe it is, like, there's so much interest that maybe some of them can go to other countries and do work at other universities.

[Joseph Cox]

Yes. So you managed to then actually speak to somebody who. I'll let you correct my phrasing of it, but either they have expressed interest or they're considering it, or they've at least reached out to the university. What did they have to say about this?

[Emmanuel Mayberg]

So this is someone who. This is one of those people who reached out to me shortly after I published the initial story. And when I started writing this story, both you and Sam gave me the very good note, which was like, okay, this is an interesting press release, but it would be better if we heard from one of the people who is actually interested in doing this. So I reached out back to this person and I said, hey, are you one of the people who is doing this? And they are. And they are in the middle of the application process of taking part in this program. And I'm unfortunately not able to say A lot about what they do and where, because that they believe would endanger their current position before they secure this new position. But I would say that it is one of the top institutions at the country. And it is a very. It's not like some obscure, weird liberal arts field of study that this person is in. It's like it is a. It is a hard, science, important field of research that, that they're in. But their funding was pulled because the work overlaps with some concept of minority focus and they're no longer able to do their research. Their funding was pulled. They're kind of running on fumes. The money that they have already secured and they're thinking about what's next. And for them, the only option is to look for other countries, other universities that are still interested in doing this kind of research.

[Joseph Cox]

Yeah. So what are we seeing? Is it potentially a brain drain? And I mean that in two ways. The first is that kind of what you spoke about with earlier historical cases and I would add, you know, East Germany and the Berlin Wall and there as well, that's one thing with like people leaving. And then almost the much more immediate one is just like, as you say, research being stopped. And it's like, well, okay, even if they don't leave, the research is being killed, essentially. What do you think some of the impacts are that we've already seen of this? And what might we see in the short to medium term of this?

[Emmanuel Mayberg]

Yeah, so the immediate impact is real and that is across agencies, across universities. There is a hiring freeze. And not only a hiring freeze. People who have already been accepted to PhD programs have had those offers rescinded. And these are not, again, not small universities that were already teetering on the edge of insolvency or something like that. It's like Harvard has a hiring freeze. There is a. Sorry, one of the Massachusetts school. It's a UMass school, I believe, but it's a big medical school and they've had PhD offers rescinded. So these are people who have been accepted to research positions and they thought they were going to start working there next year and that's not happening.

[Joseph Cox]

Including cancer stuff.

[Emmanuel Mayberg]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's a big one of the. I live next to one of the biggest children's hospitals in the country, one of the best ones in the world. And I know somebody who is like in neuroscience there that's doing very important research. And like her research was, was pulled, which I think is like. So there's the immediate economic job losses issue. But the thing that really freaks me out. And I don't know, like, the way things are going now, you can, you can pick what you want to be freaked out about. There's no shortage. And it's hard to like say what is the worst thing. But I don't know. I'm pretty rocked by this idea that it's going to take us time to feel the fact that the administration has kind of sold the future away. Like if we keep going, like things can still turn around. You know, maybe the midterms come around and they reverse course in some way and money comes back and funding comes back. But if this country doesn't have the draw for people to research cancer and anything. Artificial intelligence, right. Like a lot of that work is being done in private companies. Maybe that work for now continues to happen here. But a lot of it is also being done at government agencies and universities. Like a lot of progress is being made at these places that are no longer, no longer getting funding. And I think because they talk about, because the administration talks a lot about the DEI aspect of it, maybe people find it easy to dismiss as, oh, we're just losing that stuff. But it's not just that stuff. It's like across the board, Harvard, one of the best schools in the world, no hires, that's not a good place to be. That's not like a world leading democratic country, scientific powerhouse. That's not where you want to be as a country. And that's where we are right now.

[Joseph Cox]

Yeah. And sorry, just last thing, what does your coverage maybe look like in the coming weeks, months? Is it speaking to more people who are considering leaving and that sort of thing? What are you thinking?

[Emmanuel Mayberg]

So there's already been a lot of coverage about the type of science that has lost funding and unfortunately there's so much of it that I imagine that I can probably do some of that as well and just focusing in, focusing on some of the stuff that we're losing because of these executive orders. But then maybe also what is the future of this research? Where is it going to happen? Where are these people going to go? What does it look like for the rest of the world for the US to not be the center of so much scientific progress? I'm definitely interested in that. I hope that if these people can't get funding here in the US that they can go to France and continue that work there. But we don't know, we haven't seen this kind of shift before. So it'll be definitely interesting to follow how this all shakes out.

[Joseph Cox]

For sure. Well, on that horrible note, we will leave it there.

[Emmanuel Mayberg]

You're welcome.

[Joseph Cox]

Well, that's why I said at the top of the show, go listen to the other podcast for a laugh because we're going to talk about this sort of stuff. But if you were listening to the free version of the podcast, I'll now play us out. If you are are paying for a full media subscriber, we're going to talk about something that is actually very fun, very interesting how super Nintendo consoles are getting quicker as they age, as in the hardware ages and somehow the consoles are performing better, faster. Really interesting stuff. You can subscribe and gain access to that content at 404 Media co. As a reminder, 404 Media is journalist founded and supported by subscribers. If you do wish to subscribe to 404 Media and directly support our work, please go to 404 Media co. You'll get unlimited access to our articles and an ad free version of this podcast. You'll also get to listen to the subscribers only section where we talk about a bonus story each week. This podcast is made in partnership with Kaleidoscope. Another way to support us is by leaving a five star rating and review for the podcast. That stuff really helps us out. This has been 404 Media. We will see you again next week.