Loading summary
Transcript80 lines
- [00:01]
Podcast Sponsor/Ad Voice
This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block. Or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it, ready to make anything online make sense. There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up, required compatibility and availability. Veris 18
- [00:26]
Jason Kebler
this is lazy. If you are doing this, I'm not coming to your party, I'm not coming to your function, I'm not coming to your business. No matter what your event is, no matter what your business is. Your poster looks the same.
- [00:43]
Joseph (Host)
Hello and welcome to the 404 Media podcast where we bring you unparalleled access to hidden worlds, both online and IRL. 404 Media has joined this family company and needs your support. To subscribe, go to 404 Media Co as well as bonus content every single week. Subscribers also get access to additional episodes where we respond to their best comments. Gain access to that content@404 media co. Also do remember to subscribe to our YouTube channel where you can watch all of our episodes and video. Subscribe@YouTube.com 04mediaco I'm your host, Joseph, and with me are all of the 404 Media co founders, the first being Sam Cole.
- [01:27]
Sam Cole
Hello.
- [01:28]
Joseph (Host)
Emmanuel Mayberg.
- [01:29]
Emmanuel Mayberg
Hello.
- [01:30]
Joseph (Host)
And Jason Kebler.
- [01:31]
Jason Kebler
Hey, what's up?
- [01:33]
Joseph (Host)
All right, good to be back. We're going to jump straight into a story that I think everyone has seen in some sort of way. I was just on break and I saw examples myself and I was going to send them to you, but then I actually had my first phone off. That was the entire point. But they were absolutely everywhere. Of course, I'm talking about ChatGPT, or AI Generated Posters of businesses being absolutely everywhere. The headline of this piece is we are living in a ChatGPT flyer pandemic. Jason, you wrote this. We'll get into what these posters are for those people who don't really know. But when did you actually start noticing this was a thing? Because surely you'd seen them a ton. But then something clicked and you really started noticing all of these AI generated posters.
- [02:24]
Jason Kebler
Yeah, I think shamefully, I didn't notice them for a while, but I was walking around my house and I saw like one of these easels that, you know, like a sidewalk sign that businesses put out, like on the sidewalk in front of their restaurant. And it was for surf lessons. And I could Tell that, like, the ocean was AI generated and everything was, like, really generic. And then I realized at the bottom of the poster, there were, like, all these, like, generic icons that was like Fun Waves, Fun times family hang 10. And for some reason, that just, like, clicked for me. This wasn't even that egregious. We'll talk about sort of some of the examples of Changes ChatGPT posters that we've seen over the last few weeks that readers and listeners have sent us. But this one was, like, quite inoffensive as far as these things go. But for some reason, I was just like, that's AI. I know that's AI. And that was in the morning of Someday that I was walking around and I feel like by lunchtime I had seen similar AI generated posters, like, everywhere, just in my own neighborhood. And I was like, oh, my eyes are open to this now. I see them everywhere.
- [03:42]
Joseph (Host)
Yeah, once it clicks, you're like, oh, God, I can't stop seeing them everywhere. Sam, are you the same? Are you seeing them everywhere as well?
- [03:50]
Sam Cole
Yeah, I am now. I saw it was like a local ice cream shop posted on Instagram, an AI flyer, like, this weekend. I was like, how are we still doing this? It is something that I started noticing about a year ago where people were using. Stores were using that cartoony, like, comic strip sort of illustration style in their advertising. And I saw one, I think I texted you guys about it, like, when I saw it a year ago in Brooklyn, and it was like a guy in a oven, and it was in front of, like, an appliance store, and it said, get AC and stop cooking yourself. But he has, like, no, it's just like, shoulders up. He's in a. In a tiny oven or he's huge. No legs, no anything. He's just like, sticking out of the oven, like, cooking. I was like, this is bizarre and freaky and I don't like it. But you do have to keep seeing it over and over to clock it, because you just see one instance of that and you're like, that's a weird illustration. And then you see the same exact style over and over, and you're like, oh, that's AI.
- [04:48]
Joseph (Host)
Yeah, it was similar with the Studio Ghibli stuff when that was big for a bit, and then businesses started doing that as well. And that wasn't as sort of didn't have as long a tail as this. It seems like everybody's doing these posters, but the comic strip stuff as well. Emmanuel, are you seeing sort of these flyers everywhere as well?
- [05:07]
Emmanuel Mayberg
Yeah, it's one of those things where I wasn't thinking about it at all. And as soon as Jason pitched the headline, I was like, oh my God, he's still right. I have been seeing them everywhere and I would say there's like two places where you see them. One is actually online, like it's businesses, I assume they also print them out, but I see them on Facebook. Right. It's like a local store or a class or like a studio or something. We'll share a flyer as a digital image on Facebook, which maybe is printed out or not. I don't know. I also see them around the city. It's a certain type of business that does it. And I think understandably, most of the time when we cover AI, we kind of look at big corporations and how they're using it. I've looked at like Panera ads before and wondered if they're using AI and stuff like that. But it is actually kind of smaller mom and pop shops that are using this stuff. It's like not high end places, but kind of mid tier, low end places that are just filling a niche that they, I don't know, used to draw by hand on a chalkboard or something.
- [06:21]
Joseph (Host)
Yeah, I mean, like they're the ones that are going to get the most, I guess, financial benefit of it. You know, they may not have the money for a graphic designer even to outsource it or fiverr or something like that. And I don't know, they realize, oh, we can just use AI to quickly generate this flyer that's going to be great for business. But people don't like it, obviously. Jason, what sort of the reaction been not just from sort of our readers and listeners who sent in examples, but like people are talking about this online, right, where they're saying, this sucks, please don't do this.
- [06:56]
Jason Kebler
Yeah, I mean, this is one of those things where I did notice this on my own. I was like, oh my God, this is crazy. And then I started seeing it and then I was like, are other people talking about this? And one place that people are talking about this a lot is like in the artists and graphic design community, obviously. Because I think one, it's an example of their jobs being taken away. A lot of these people are freelancers or do gig work and they're maybe not getting as many commissions. And then the other thing is like, it's offensive to them. Like just the style of it is like so in your face. It's like if you've seen these, there's almost no white space or, like, design sensibility on any of them. It just, like, almost all of these posters just, like, assault your eyes with just, like, stuff. And then another thing that's a dead giveaway, I think, and a big one is the font where it has, like, really jagged edges. There's usually like the. A back brush stroke across them, and it's like, there's little, like, firework type things coming out of the text. And it's just, like, really aggressive. And it reminds me a lot of, like, Papyrus and Impact and Comic Sans and these other, like, design memes that we've seen over, you know, the course of various decades. But basically, like, there's been a lot of designers on Instagram being like, don't do this, and sort of saying, like, we. We are living in, you know, a ChatGPT poster pandemic. That's, like, actually not my framing. That was like, the framing of several different viral Instagrams that I link to and show in the. In the article. And it's become, like, a major topic of conversation there. Just being like, this is lazy. If you are doing this, like, I'm not coming to your party, I'm not coming to your function, I'm not coming to your business. And then there's been examples of bars and music venues and things like this that take flyers from the community where they might have, like, a bulletin board or maybe they, like, post events on their Instagram or their Facebook or something like that. And a lot of these places have stopped taking flyers that are clearly AI generated one because it kind of demonstrates, like, a lack of effort in what it is that you're going to be doing. And I think some places are scared of having a, like, Willy Wonka Chocolate Factory experience, which was, like, this party, I believe it was in Scotland or maybe Ireland. It was like, a year and a half ago. And all of the. All of the, like, promotional materials were AI generated, promising this, like, really crazy, like, Willy Wonka experience for kids. And then you show up and it's like a few plastic folding tables, and it's just like, the saddest thing you've ever seen. And it's very similar to, like, Fyre Fest, although the scale of it was, like, much less. But I think that venues and people are, like, scared of getting into a situation like that, because with AI, you can promise this, like, ridiculous, magical experience at your event or your restaurant or whatever, and then the actual, like, party is going to just be like, shit, you know?
- [10:13]
Joseph (Host)
Yeah, it was in. It was in Glasgow in February 2024. Sam sent an example of one of the posters to our group chat. And, yeah, it's everything you said. There is no white space. It's like. It's almost like looking more at, like, a menu than a poster, you know what I mean? Like, a really horrible laminated menu inside, like, a crappy restaurant or something. And it feels more like that. And do you know what prompt they're using? Like, are they doing, like, an elaborate prompt where, like, well, I need to give it the date and stuff, like, presumably. Right. Like, I'm just wondering how it's making so much fucking information on this poster in response to a prompt, you know?
- [10:56]
Jason Kebler
Yeah, it's really interesting because at first I thought, like, this was Canva, which is, you know, like a online graphic design program that, you know, we use for some things and has become really popular. And I didn't actually realize it was ChatGPT for a while. You know, there may be other AI tools. Like, I'm not saying every single example is definitely ChatGPT, but the vast majority of them are ChatGPT, from what I can tell, because ChatGPT, like, makes the same type of poster over and over and over again. And I, like, tested this out a bit. I haven't seen so many videos or guides that are like, here's how to make a ChatGPT poster. But I think what's happening is literally, like, people who are experimenting with ChatGPT, it's the most popular AI tool out there, are saying, I need to make an advertisement for my business, or I need to make a flyer for my business, or I want to make a poster or a sign for my business. And then if you ask ChatGPT that, it will, like, say, yes, of course, like, give me the following information. And then it will ask you, like, what's the name of your business? Like, what is you? What do you want the logo to look like? You know, what day is your party? If it's a party, what time is your party? Like, all of this. And so I did that a few times just for fake parties where I was like, I'm gonna have a fourth of July party at Jason's house.
- [12:22]
Joseph (Host)
And you put your real address into ChatGPT.
- [12:26]
Jason Kebler
And I did that. And it. What it's spit out on the other side was, like, exactly one of these posters. And so I think what's happening basically is ChatGPT will guide you through the process where the, you know, so that's why it's ending up looking so similar, is because you'll say Like, I want a professional poster for my business. And it will say, it will give you like a, A prompt back and it'll say, get, you know, answer the following questions. And that's what's happening, I think.
- [12:54]
Joseph (Host)
Yeah. How many? So you've seen your own examples? We've seen them as well. But then people, readers and listeners were sending them to you as well. Did you like, put a call out on bluesky or an email or something or.
- [13:08]
Jason Kebler
Yeah, I did a few things. So one, for the last few weeks, I've been asking all of you guys to send me examples that you see. And I find it like, way more interesting when these are out in the real world versus, like, posted on Facebook. Although seen some really, like, wild ones on Facebook. But like, I like the. My own spotting interests are like really big versions of it. So like on billboards, on like the facades of buildings, you know, physical signs, I just find it to be. It's like they went through the extra effort to actually print them out and stuff like that. So in the email when we published this article, I said, like, if you've seen these, send me examples. And then when I posted it on Blue sky and on X, I said, you know, this is going to be a thread of the worst ChatGPT posters you've seen. And I got so many responses. I got like hundreds of responses. And a lot of them are like, I wouldn't say inoffensive, but they're just kind of all samey where it's like, here's, you know, we're doing like a fourth of July event. There's tons of Fourth of July ones done by either, like, local bars. There was tons of like, World cup ones.
- [14:24]
Joseph (Host)
World cup were the ones I saw. Yeah, I saw.
- [14:27]
Jason Kebler
But the ones that I like, really loved were when it was something like offbeat or odd. Maybe we can show some of them on YouTube. We can, like, flip through them. But like, my favorite one is one called Belt to Ass energy drink that was outside of a New York City bodega. And it's like, I don't know what the fuck this energy drink is, but it's like insane. On the Venice beach boardwalk, I saw one that's just like viral snacks, exotic snacks by TikTok. And then it's just like, so clearly AI generated. You know, there was one for like, endangered fish done by like a local government. There was this Arby's takeover one that. I don't know if this one may have been a joke, like, but I did see it going around A lot, but it's just like a mountain of meat and like Pikachu is on it. It's just like. It's an assault on your senses. We'll show it. There's like a sushi taco. One that's just like, has a cat holding a bunch of sush sushi tacos that are clearly fake. There's one for like a gay bear meetup in South Africa that has a quote from Paul McCarthy, which I think they meant Paul McCartney. Unclear. Yeah, just like a lot of this type of thing.
- [15:58]
Sam Cole
Paul's also not a bear.
- [16:00]
Emmanuel Mayberg
No.
- [16:02]
Joseph (Host)
There's a lot of confusion.
- [16:03]
Sam Cole
Let's fact check this, right?
- [16:04]
Joseph (Host)
A lot of confusion going on there. I mean, you touched on this, given the blowback in sort of the creative space and the artist communities and that sort of thing. But you did actually speak to someone at a creative design studio for some perspective, Jason, like, what did they say? It was a place in Toronto, right?
- [16:21]
Jason Kebler
Yeah, I thought that what they had to say was quite interesting and not something I had thought about where they were basically, like, shitty graphic design has existed forever. Which I knew, of course. It's like you've seen really busy, poorly done graphic design all the time. I'm guilty of making it myself. But they saw this as kind of like the YouTube thumbnail fication of real world, where everything sort of starts looking the same and is trying to grab your attention in this very specific same way. And I think that small businesses and businesses in general have been been trying to find out how to cut costs, like, since forever. And if you're not an artistically inclined person that has probably been through like, skimping on your graphic design and your flyers and things like that. So I mentioned earlier, like, templatized signs and graphic design is something that's been around forever where, like, I'm just going to dump this into, like, you know, either Canva or Ms. Paint or whatever. And that resulted in like, tons and tons of like, really weird posters and flyers. The difference is that when you had people doing that, it usually resulted in things that were, like, uniquely bad. Like, they were bad in an interesting way. You know, that said there were memes I mentioned earlier. It's like there was a long time where businesses were using Comic Sans for everything or they were using papyrus font. Like yoga studios were using papyrus font or like, I feel like a lot of like Thai and Japanese restaurants were using like papyrus font to, like, imply that they were fancy in some way.
- [18:15]
Emmanuel Mayberg
And Clipart. Clipart was like a aesthetic.
- [18:18]
Joseph (Host)
Oh, yeah. For sure, yeah.
- [18:20]
Jason Kebler
Then of course, like impact font from memes and stuff. And it's just like you associate these design elements with either different types of businesses or different types of like, graphic design, like eras, I guess. But to me, I like, long for those days. I don't know if I'm just like a boomer about this, but I enjoy when things are bad in a unique and interesting way. And what we're seeing with these ChatGPT posters is that no matter what your event is, no matter what your business is, your poster looks the same because it's being run through the same software using like similar prompts and that sort of thing. So regardless of whether you're throwing like a dance party or you have like a restaurant or you're doing an ocean cleanup event, like the, the graphic design ends up looking the same and it's kind of sucks.
- [19:15]
Emmanuel Mayberg
Exactly. To this point, I'm sharing a tweet that I saw in Slack and basically it is cycling through, I don't know, dozens, hundreds of these posters. And this person whose name on Twitter is Manny44, he's an artist. I've talked to him for a previous story when we were advice a long time ago. But he says Counterpoint, ChatGPT flyers are the first original aesthetic of seen in years and they will be looked upon nostalgically in 10 years. I thought that was a pretty interesting point. I wonder what you think. I don't like necessarily agree or like it, but I will concede and I think, Jason, this is kind of exactly what you were just saying, where nostalgia has a way of transforming like the stinkiest herd into something you love. So I can imagine that being the case.
- [20:17]
Jason Kebler
Yeah, I mean, I, I, I, I saw that post as well. And I think it's interesting if this is. People have said this about AI Slop as well, where they're like, AI slop is actually very creative. And it's creative in like the following ways for the following reasons. And like, one of those reasons is because it creates something that's like, surreal or weird because of, like, because of the disconnect between what a human is asking for and what the AI is interpreting it as. And you know, for some other reasons as well. Such as, like, you can make anything very quickly. And I guess I like, I understand the argument, like, I do, and I think it's a position that someone could hold, but I don't really think, I don't think that we'll look back on this and be like, wow, that was like the dawn of a boom of new advertising. And, you know, it was like, really good for small businesses and all of that. And I think one of the reasons for that, and I guess we should be very explicit here, it's like a lot of small businesses can't afford a graphic designer or don't have time to. It's like they're running really small margins. It's like, harder. It's harder than ever for like a small restaurant to succeed. And.
- [21:32]
Emmanuel Mayberg
And that's where we're seeing most of these. Like, that's where most of these are coming from.
- [21:36]
Jason Kebler
Yeah. And so, like, I don't want to. I'm not trying to, like, specifically shit on any, like, specific small business that doesn't understand the, like, conversation that's happening on Blue sky or Instagram or whatever. Like, a lot of these are very kind of like, offline businesses that are doing this. I think one, I wanted to write about it because I just started seeing them everywhere. And also I should note, this is not like an American phenomenon. This is happening all over the world. People sent me examples from South Africa, from Japan, from the Middle East. Like, I saw them in Europe when I was just in Europe. Like, everywhere, in all sorts of different languages. Like, this is happening everywhere. But what's happening is people are having this, like, visceral rejection of this sort of thing. And I think it's something where maybe small businesses are not going to know that unless they're quite online. It's hard to say, like, how at scale the rejection of this is, but, like, it is a big conversation that's happening and people are upset by it. And I think it's just, like, worth acknowledging that as well. And then there's also been a move to, like, just do it in Ms. Paint, like, do it on, like, do a handwritten sign. Like, if you do a handwritten sign with chicken scratch, like, that is more interesting and notable than a lot of the things that we're seeing now.
- [23:03]
Joseph (Host)
Yeah. Do you think some businesses will realize it's potentially bad for them? But that said, what is somebody gonna go in to one of these stores and be like, hey, I'm not giving you my business because your flyer is ChatGPT generated? I mean, some people might, but I don't know whether that divides ever going to be crossed. You know what I mean? I guess we just have to wait and see if people actually, I don't know, take their business elsewhere or something.
- [23:32]
Jason Kebler
Yeah, I mean, the theory that I've seen is that it will, it won't hurt you so much in the short run, but maybe in the long term you'll start to, like, annoy your customers. Your customers will think, like, this is really lazy. Or maybe, I mean, maybe it is something where it's just like, well, I'll accept it. Posters will get better. Like, it will. Things like this will get integrated into things like Canva and other graphic design tools that. Where maybe there is more human, like, involvement with some AI elements. I mean, AI is being shoved into, like, every Adobe product, for example, and sort of where AI begins and human. Where like human development and art starts. And like, you know, if you apply a filter to things like, is that AI like, blah, blah, blah. Like, that's an open question. I think maybe that's just like, where this will eventually go. And this is like the early days of people just typing this into ChatGPT and just using whatever pops out on the other side. Like, maybe it will get better over time. I don't. I don't really know, but right now they just like, look terrible.
- [24:37]
Emmanuel Mayberg
I think I will note if you're looking for optimism. Injury and accident lawyers, I think, have not picked up generative AI yet in their ads. And they're like the vanguard of beautiful shitty art. So maybe, maybe they know something. You know, Morgan and Morgan. Top Dog. Shout out. Shout out to Top Dog.
- [25:00]
Jason Kebler
Call Jacob. Ask Jacob.
- [25:01]
Emmanuel Mayberg
Yeah, they're not doing it. They're still doing bespoke, you know, shitty ads. And maybe that's a good sign.
- [25:08]
Joseph (Host)
That's beautiful. You know, one font that will never, ever go out of style. Copper plate Gothic, bold. See that everywhere. Literally whenever I see that font, I, like, nudge my friend and be like, that's copper plate Gothic world. You know, when we go past it, great font that's never going to go down the Papyrus or Comic Sans route.
- [25:27]
Jason Kebler
I didn't know this and now I'm looking at it and you're right. I see this everywhere. It's classic.
- [25:32]
Emmanuel Mayberg
I don't like it. I don't like it.
- [25:33]
Joseph (Host)
It's the. It's the funk from Hitman Emmanuel from the early Hitman games.
- [25:36]
Emmanuel Mayberg
That's how it goes. That's nothing for me.
- [25:38]
Jason Kebler
We gotta go back to Times New Roman. I used to return. We gotta go back to that.
- [25:45]
Emmanuel Mayberg
Return to tradition.
- [25:47]
Joseph (Host)
Yeah, we tried to do that. Yeah, exactly. All right, we'll leave that there when we come back after the break. Waymo is snitching. We'll be right back after this.
- [26:03]
Podcast Sponsor/Ad Voice
Foreign.
- [26:08]
Jason Kebler
If you've listened to this show for more than a week, you Know our beat is uncovering how your data is quietly harvested and exposed online. And if you're like us, working remotely, constantly on the move, and running your entire life off your laptop and phone, well, you're leaving a massive digital footprint. Every time you jump between networks, check emails on the go, or browse from a new location, your device is broadcasting your activity. Advertisers can track your activity, leading to targeted ads, price discrimination and a sense of being monitored. It's the kind of systemic tracking we'd normally write a story about. That's why we recommend surfshark. At its core, surfshark VPN keeps your online activity private. By hiding your IP address, it encrypts your connection, making your online activity much harder to track. So your research, your sources and your personal data stay private no matter where you're working from. But surfshark does far more than that. It blocks ads and trackers, which cuts down on the price discrimination games that sites based on what they know about you. It includes Alert, which monitors your ID for data leaks, and an email scam checker that protects against phishing attacks. And if you game, it helps defend against DDoS attacks and ISP throttling since you're always on the move. The best part is that one subscription secures unlimited devices, so your entire household is covered. Go to surfshark.com 404 Media to get four extra months of Surfshark VPN with the reassurance of a 30 day money back guarantee. Or just use code 404 Media at checkout. That's surfshark.com 404 Media People think a lot about their clothes, but they often settle when they buy glasses. They find a pair that's fine, but then you wear them every single day on your face for the next few years. Because buying glasses feels like such a hassle that you don't want to think about it all that often. That's what surprised me about Warby Parker. Warby Parker has made the whole process of buying glasses easier. And for the first time, I found frames that I actually am excited to wear. Warby Parker's virtual Try on feature is honestly the coolest part. You open your phone, point the camera at yourself, and you can see different frames on your face in real time. That's important for me. I have like a really big wide head kind of, and so I was able to just like use Warby Parker's Try on feature. And it took the guesswork out of trying to imagine what they'll actually look like. These are my sunglasses that I wear honestly every single day. These are the Elios. I actually have them in two different colors because I love how they look on my face and honestly I get compliments on them way more often than I expect. They feel premium, they're comfortable and they don't feel like I have to spend a fortune to get quality prescription. Glasses start at just $95 and Warby Parker also has sunglasses, contacts, online eye exams, plus more than 300 retail stores if you want an in person option and if you have vision insurance, they'll even help you check your eligibility and automatically apply your benefits. I've used Warby Parker for many years. At this point they become my everyday go to sunglasses. I live in la, it's sunny here a lot. I'm wearing these all the time. I've also had several eye appointments at Warby Parker and I really have enjoyed those exams. They've been painless, really easy to get in and out of and I felt like I was getting quality care right now. Buy one pair of glasses and get 20% off any additional pairs@warbyparker.com 404 that's 20% off any additional pairs when you purchase one pair@warbyparker.com404
- [29:45]
BetterHelp Sponsor Voice
this episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. We talk about mental health more openly now, but asking for it, well, that's a different story can still be hard and BetterHelp has the research to prove it. BetterHelp's 2026 State of Stigma report surveyed 2,000Americans and revealed that 85% of Americans believe getting support is wise, yet 74% say society discourages people from doing so. There is this gap between knowing that you need some support, that you need help. Maybe you just need someone to talk to about what's going on during your week and actually going out and getting it. There is still some stigma around getting help for mental health. A lot of us know that we've got issues. We have a hard time going out and getting support for those issues. That's where better health comes in. BetterHelp has quality therapists that all work according to a strict code of conduct and are all fully licensed to work in the United States. And they have a matching commitment. They do the initial matching for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. There's a short questionnaire that helps identify your needs and preferences and their 12 plus years of experience and industry leading match. Fulfillment rate means that usually you get a good person the first time, but if it doesn't work out you can switch to a different therapist from any of their tailored recommendations. So please don't let stigma stand in the way of support. Start therapy with BetterHelp. Sign up and get 10% off at BetterHealth.com 404Media that's B-E-T-T-E-R-H-E-L-P.com 404Media.
- [31:38]
Joseph (Host)
All right, and we are back. Sam, this is one you wrote. I believe cops say Waymo snitched on teens for allegedly drinking and shooting a toy gun straight off. There's like a lot of unanswered questions I would say right now, but like, what we do know is already crazy in and of itself. Let's just start with what did the police say? Like, what was this statement that the police put out?
- [32:05]
Sam Cole
Yeah, I mean, just as a caveat, I guess. This entire story is based on police statements. So take that as you will.
- [32:14]
Joseph (Host)
Famously reliable.
- [32:16]
Sam Cole
Famously reliable. Famously always accurate. Waymo hasn't replied to, as far as I can tell, anyone's request for comment, mine or any other news outlets. And a lot of people cover this. So they are staying quiet about it. So what we have is what the cops said. So on July 6, the San Mateo Police Department, which is in the Bay Area, posted on Facebook, parents, do you know where your teens are? Waymo does. Great. I love that we're getting cute right off the jump. So it says two 15 year olds up to trouble in A Waymo this afternoon were detained after Waymo reported they were drinking and shooting from the vehicle. I won't read the whole thing, but B the too long didn't read is they they say that Waymo told the police, called the police, alerted the police to these 15 year olds who were shooting an Orbeez gun, which if you're not familiar with Orbeez, God bless you. It's like a little gel bead, like a little water bead, which I assume can probably hurt. Probably feels like a BB gun or something if you get shot with one.
- [33:22]
Joseph (Host)
So less than a BB gun. Like I know a BB gun, but it's like a level below that.
- [33:27]
Sam Cole
Right? It's not like an airsoft gun, it's like a little water pellet gun. But they say that they were shooting Norby's gun from the car as they sipped on afternoon libations while being chauffeured around town in the driver's vehicle. Again, wish they would be more specific about what exactly they were drinking because later in other outlets they tell reporters that they were drinking Alcohol. Again, we don't really know for sure this is all allegedly, but basically Waymox called the cops is what the police said at that point. And we know a little bit more now based on other news outlets reporting on this. But that's where we were at on July 6th.
- [34:08]
Joseph (Host)
Yeah. So the key bit of the statement there is Waymo reported. Right? That's what the cops said. So do we know if it was like an automated system? Do we know if it was an employee? And if we don't, there are cameras inside Waymo's. Right. That people may not fully realize.
- [34:28]
Sam Cole
Yeah, I mean, that's a big part of the conversation is like people don't fully realize that There are like 29 cameras inside of a Waymo. So we know now from a story that K R O N Kron, I guess, is maybe how you would say it. The local news outlet in the Bay Area talked more to the cops and they said a couple days after this happened that a Waymo employee was remotely monitoring the car and basically lied to the kids in the car and said, because if you're in a Waymo, if you're not familiar, an employee, like a support person, can get on there, like, get in the speakers of the car, basically, and be like, hey. Or, you know, get on the screen, the touchscreens and stuff and make an announcement. Says like, hey, this is what's happening. But the employees told the kids that the Waymo was having mechanical issues and had to stop. And then at that point, the cops say that Waymo then directed it, directed the car to a spot where the police were waiting. So they, like, they did a sting. Yeah, right. And then the cops were there waiting with like. The cops didn't know because the Waymo support person was like, there's someone in the. In the car with something that looks like a gun because it was like a toy gun that was like painted over. And these toy guns look like. I mean, they're like kind of big. They don't look like little like water guns. But they didn't know for sure what it was that they had in the car. So there were a bunch of cops waiting for them. It was like five cops were waiting at this spot and they got out of the car with their guns and there's video of this. And then opened up the Waymo doors and found these two kids in there shooting orbeez and I guess drinking. They. The police said that they're reviewing the situation for underage drinking charges. But yeah, it's. It's super Interesting, because I think people don't realize that if you're in a Waymo, you're. There's always the potential. They say that they're not continually monitoring what's going on inside of the car. But I do think there is some kind of passive monitoring happening because how would they know that these kids were messing around in a car with a. Waving a gun around, you know, drinking.
- [36:47]
Joseph (Host)
So yeah, there must be some sort of thing which is monitoring the audio, monitoring the visuals, because you're not going to just live monitor every single Waymo that's on the road at once. Right. It needs to be surfaced in some capacity.
- [37:01]
Sam Cole
Yeah. And like Waymo is transparent about this. On their support pages, like they say that a support team may review video under certain circumstances, including after an issue is brought to our attention, and may access live video during a trip in more urgent circumstances. But it's not very clear when those circumstances are brought to Waymo's attention. If not from you pushing a button that says like, I need help, which you can do instead of a Waymo, you can say like, I need to talk to a support person immediately. I assume these 15 year olds didn't ask Waymo to take a look. I don't know, maybe they did. Maybe they were like, check this shit out. But I doubt it. You know, like. Yeah, we've seen instances before where people claim that Waymo has chimed in, a support person has said, like, you need to get inside the car because they're like hanging out the car like with their phone or you need to get seated or something like that. So there's been like more minor cases than this, but I think this is the first time that a Waymo's actually like delivered someone to the police.
- [38:04]
Joseph (Host)
Yeah.
- [38:04]
Sam Cole
Which is literally a plot of a cyberpunk side quest, by the way.
- [38:10]
Joseph (Host)
Yeah, yeah, I think the Delamain car, right.
- [38:13]
Jason Kebler
When you get into a Waymo, it tells you, or at least like maybe on the app it tells you that the cameras are always on, but the microphones are not. But they have microphones and that they can like enable the microphones at any point. If they think like something bad is happening and it's not clear how they determine like something bad is happening. Whether that is done by a human, whether that's done by like image recognition, whatever. It seems like in this case it was done by this human Waymo employee. But I would have to imagine it's like a mix of the both of the two. And I think that's like a very. I like to know, like, how are they determining when there's like, distress occurring?
- [38:54]
Joseph (Host)
Yeah. And like, this was probably, at least in Waymo's eyes, like a very legitimate use of that. Like if they see a gun shaped objects, they feel they, they need to act or something. But you still want to know as a passenger or even a passerby, well, what systems are in place. So it's not like it's just, could a Waymo employee just log on anytime and just start looking at me or whatever. Like we've had with so many of the various smart devices scandals over the years when it comes to audio or video and that sort of thing. I mean, Jason, this relates to some of your earlier coverage about, you know, cops sending subpoenas to Waymo for footage collected by the vehicles. Like, just remind us what sort of that context is.
- [39:36]
Jason Kebler
Yeah, I mean, there's been at least one case in la, maybe more, where the lapd, like requested footage from Waymo. And this was, this was basically like LAPD knew that a crime occurred somewhere near a Waymo, and then they retroactively went and asked Waymo for the footage that the, that the car recorded, like, of the outside world. Like, I'm not aware of footage or anything that's come from inside a Waymo where a crime was being committed in a Waymo or where like, like this is a different thing that's happening. But I think that, I mean, it's obviously very related. But I'm saying that usually it's like an after the fact thing where the cops are already aware of a crime and then they go and they request the footage and they either subpoena it or they request it. Like you've done reporting that a lot of social media companies, and I think maybe telecom companies to some extent have like these portals where law enforcement can request footage that they don't have to go through a subpoena pro a formal, like, legal process. And I think that it's. It's kind of unclear the extent to which Waymo is willing to cooperate with police. And I think that in this case, where it's like they're proactively going to the police, that's like, quite concerning. And I think it's just a reminder that these things are surveillance vehicles, like on wheels, basically.
- [41:10]
Joseph (Host)
Yeah, same with the delivery robots and various other things we're seeing. And on that, Sam, we are seeing more of this backlash against autonomous sort of systems. But also Waymos specifically. I can't remember who shared it in Slack, but there was this video of a Guy beating the shit out of a Waymo like a couple days ago or something, I guess. We haven't done any reporting on it, but what do you think's happening there? Is this just part of a built up resentment against these vehicles or something? What do you think?
- [41:45]
Sam Cole
Yeah, I think so. I think it's probably in large part that it's also. I mean, we've talked about our conflicting feelings about Waymo on this podcast before. I see people break the law in incredibly dangerous ways every single day in Brooklyn and elsewhere in ways that are near death experiences, just walking around. So I don't know, it's like I'm ready to beat the shit out of any car that comes near me ever again. And maybe a Waymo will be in my path next time, I don't know. But there, there's also been a lot of instances lately where Waymos are just fucking up massively. I don't know if you guys saw the video of the Waymo running over the fireworks over the fourth of July weekend. It just stopped over a rocket, you
- [42:34]
Joseph (Host)
know, it just parked sort of thing, kind of.
- [42:37]
Sam Cole
Yeah, it just stopped there. I think it probably realized too late that it was driving through the middle of like a party, which is like, that's not good. And there's somebody in the car recording that. Like, you know, that's not safe either. It's like they, they abide by the rules of the road the way a robot would. But then in these situations that require like a human mind, they just totally work it. So I don't know. I think people are frustrated by everything in this space and anything that involves automation. And I think driverless cars are a part of that. And it's the same way that people kick the delivery robots for blocking the sidewalk. It's like these are private companies operating in very public spaces and using these public spaces as experiments. And I think that is their whole business model and they can't function without it. And they should be ready for people to kick the shit out of their robots. Choose to. You know, it's like they're also covered in cameras. So I don't suggest doing that. Please don't do that. You will probably go to jail for destruction of public.
- [43:44]
Jason Kebler
Public.
- [43:44]
Sam Cole
Not public property. Private property.
- [43:46]
Joseph (Host)
In a public place.
- [43:47]
Sam Cole
In a public place. So, yeah, I don't know.
- [43:49]
Joseph (Host)
It's.
- [43:50]
Sam Cole
It's an interesting time. We see a lot of people defacing cameras in public, things like that. Which again, is another private company operating as an experiment on the public. So I get it for sure, Totally makes sense.
- [44:06]
Joseph (Host)
All right, we'll leave that there if you're listening to the free version of the podcast and I'll play us out. But if you are paying 404 media subscriber, you get to hear about how I bought a $3,000 cyber suit that electrocutes your muscles. How about that? You can subscribe and gain access to that content at 404 Media co. As a reminder, 404 Media is journalist founded and supported by subscribers. If you do wish to subscribe to 404 Media and directly support our work, please go to 404 Media co. You'll get unlimited access to our articles and an ad free version of this podcast. You'll also get to listen to the subscribers only section where we talk about a bonus story each week. This podcast is produced by Alyssa Midcalf. Another way to support us is by leaving a five star rating and review for the podcast. That stuff really does help us out. This has been 404 Media. We'll see you again next week.