Loading summary
Transcript96 lines
- [00:00]
Maddy Myers
After Polygon, I was like, this has happened to me too many times. If I'm going to do something like this again, I'm going to do it on my own terms.
- [00:11]
404 Media Host
Hello and welcome to the four four Media podcast where we bring you unparalleled access to hidden worlds, both online and IRL. 404 Media is a journalist founded company and needs your support. To subscribe, go to Four4Media Co as well as bonus content every single week. Subscribers also get access to additional episodes where we respond to the best comments. You also get early access to our interview series that' gain access to that content@fourfourmedia. SEO today I'm joined by Maddy Myers, editor in chief of Mothership. She is also a co host of the video games podcast TripleClick. Maddie launched Mothership with co founder Zoe Hanna in January. It's a queer and women owned independent publication that focuses on gender and games. Maddie, hi.
- [00:52]
Maddy Myers
Thank you for being here. Hi. I'm so excited to be here. Big404 fam. As everyone should be.
- [00:59]
404 Media Host
Oh my gosh. It goes both ways. I'm so excited to talk to you. I was so excited to see Mothership launch. I know it's only been a few months, which feels like years.
- [01:06]
Maddy Myers
It does, actually. It feels like years in terms of the stresses of owning a small business and all that that entails, which it's. It's going great. But I think psychologically it's been a big adjustment for me and for Zoe because before this we actually worked together at Polygon. We were salary women at Vox Media, but that obviously went awry when Polygon got sold to Val that in May of last year. And after that point we were like, I think it's time to do something different. And here we are several months later.
- [01:39]
404 Media Host
Hell yeah. Love it. Yeah. I think your story parallels our own in some interesting ways, just from the ways that you launched and you decided to do this. But we'll get into all that and I think longtime listeners of the podcast will be like, oh yeah, this is kind of the way that all these indie media outlets end up launching is they get really disgruntled and they're like, fuck this.
- [02:01]
Maddy Myers
Or they get laid off. Or in our case, we actually didn't get laid off, but like 34 of our colleagues did. And first I quit and then Zoe quit and then we reconvened and we're like, what are we doing with our lives? Which I think is a little bit of a stranger outcome. Like, for a lot of people, it's like, you get laid off and then you're like, okay, I'm gonna make a new choice. But in our case, we actually didn't, and then had to make the choice to quit with nothing lined up, no severance, nothing, and just. Just make the decision to start a business together.
- [02:31]
404 Media Host
That's how we did it almost exactly. We. Vice was doing mass layoffs, and we were like, are we going to get laid off? We're watching all of our brilliant colleagues get laid off. So then we just. We decided to pull the band aid and quit, which was very scary.
- [02:45]
Maddy Myers
It's scary, but it is also empowering to be like, no, I'm going to make a decision about my own life for once. After years of being subject to the whimsical of media companies. Because I did work at Kotaku prior to Polygon, and I was there during the Univision to Jim Spanfeller. And that is what actually led to the launch of TripleClick as an independent podcast. So in that sense, I was like, I've kind of done that part before. And I know that owning something yourself is really meaningful.
- [03:17]
404 Media Host
Yeah, absolutely. I definitely want to walk through just the origin story, but I also want to walk through your. What brought you here personally today. So you were a games journalist at the Boston Phoenix, which is an alt weekly. Was that a print publication?
- [03:31]
Maddy Myers
Yeah, print, yeah. We were. We were using InDesign, which is like a digital program to lay out pages. But there were. I have a lot of, like, memories of us literally laying out pages on those huge lightboards. It's like. It's one of those experiences that very few other journalists I meet have, because even by the time I was working there. I graduated college in 2008 and also started my first day of work at the Phoenix on the day of my last final exam at bu. And that was like, when I started my entry level job. But I was there until it went out of business in 2013. And yes, it was a print publication in print all the way to the end. And part of why it went into business is because our income, because we were free Alt Weekly was based on classified ads, which is like, this is the old timey way that that papers and magazines were running and that supplied pretty much all of our income. We also sold ads, but that wasn't like the biggest chunk of income. It was classified ads. So pretty much as soon as Craigslist existed, any newspaper that subsisted off of classified ads was doomed. And we never found an alternative funding model that was effective, at least not in Time. But also I don't know that we ever could have because as you know, the funding models for online publications, unless you're like a massive legacy publication like the New York Times, you're kind of screwed because you're relying on hundreds and hundreds of thousands of subscribers, basically. But way back in the Phoenix days, in 2013 when it went out of business, I actually at that time I had been doing a lot of feminist games criticism at the Phoenix. Very left leaning publication, the Phoenix. People might remember.
- [05:19]
404 Media Host
It's mentioned as alt weeklies often are.
- [05:21]
Maddy Myers
Of course, all alt weeklies are. But I think what's happening, what it's most famous for is breaking the story. It's mentioned in Spotlight in like one sentence where the journalists are being curmudgeons about the fact that the Phoenix beat them to this story that's about, you know, Catholic priests and the conspiracy to move them around when they were being credibly accused of molesting children. So the Phoenix is pretty famous for having broken that story. But no surprise then that it would be left leaning as a publication overall and that they would really welcome feminist criticism. So in 2013, I was like 26 years old and really bright eyed and I was like, I'm gonna make my own feminist games publication. And I realized within a couple months that I had no clue what I was doing. I didn't even get to founding one. I was just like, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know how to earn money, I don't know how to start a publication. Like what? So I ended up just freelancing for a couple years and kind of continuing to try to find places to do feminist games criticism. I did a lot of work at Paste during that time and then eventually got a full time job again at the Mary Su, which was this amazing feminist blog that was actually founded by Susanna Polo, who I would eventually work with at Polygon. It was a site that was founded explicitly to be like a geek girl, quote, unquote blog. You know, it was right after Gamergate. There was so much to discuss in that world and like we were getting harassed every day. But like it felt so empowering to be able to do that kind of work and have a staff of people that just fully supported me in a way that almost frankly nowhere I've ever worked quite has. Even the Phoenix. A lot of times when I would get harassed for my work. I got my first death threats in 2011 over articles I was writing there. And a lot of people at the Phoenix Were like, we don't even really understand gamers or what's happening to you. And they kind of. I mean, they were supportive, but they didn't understand it, you know. But the Mary sue was amazing because it was like we were all in it. We'd all already been through Gamergate and we were like, we understand this fundamentally. And that was part of what was so cool about working there. And it was one of the things that with Mothership, I was kind of hoping to recreate because the Mary sue was actually acquired by Gamers Group, which is another kind of like Valnet esque megacorp that just acquires companies and kind of lays off as many people as possible. Typically, this is just kind of typically what they do and then replaces them with contractors. And that happened to the Mary Sue a few years ago. So I did make the choice to leave the Mary sue for Kotaku. I was like, you know, Kotaku's gonna pay me way more. And there's a lot of people who didn't know who I was until I started working at Kotaku, which is fine. It's a much bigger website, has a huge readership comparatively, and that was good for my career. But it also was so much harder to work at a place where, I mean, I'm certainly not the first person to talk about this, but Gawker Media has such a lone wolf sensibility. It's like a real every man for himself. And I use those gendered terms very specifically. Or it's like, you gotta just survive it, baby. Like, that was just like really the vibe there. And I felt very alone a lot of the time, even though it was a great job. I don't want to make it sound like I'm dissing anyone in particular there, but it was so different from the Mary Sue's sense of camaraderie and also sense of like, we're an explicitly feminist site. As opposed to Kotaku and Polygon, which are mainstream gaming sites where the majority of the readers are male and where if you're gonna write a feminist piece of criticism there, you have to write it with the vantage point of like, people are not going to understand a lot of the things you're saying. And so you need to write it from a not just 101 level, but like 100 level. Like, you need to get out of college and go back to high school or something. If we're gonna use course numbers to describe it. But I've also really missed being able to just be like, I'm just gonna write really for People who already get it. Like, it feels so empowering to just be like, I'm gonna make a website that's actually not for everyone. It's actually just straight up not gonna be for everyone. It's gonna be for people who want this. And that can be whatever gender identity you are, but you need to already be on board, and that is what Mothership is. We're assuming you're already on board with the concept of the site.
- [09:40]
404 Media Host
Yeah, I mean, it all relates to what I was when I. When I saw that you were writing for. You were writing games journalism for an alt weekly at. That is like, whoa. Because, you know, I was writing for an alt weekly in 2010 and, like, my audience was like a very rural, like, Virginia, and they. I was introducing them to topics like online dating.
- [10:01]
Maddy Myers
Yeah.
- [10:02]
404 Media Host
And people who met on OkCupid. And, like, how crazy.
- [10:05]
Maddy Myers
Yeah. Like, the Internet was like this wild thing that you would have to explain to people.
- [10:09]
404 Media Host
Yeah, yeah, Whoa. The Internet. And so, like, it's a different thing to start that way. And then also to, like, be like, I know that there is a. There's an audience out there who does get it and who does understand what I'm saying, and I can write for them. But I will leave out these other people who need a lot of, like, 99 level prerequisite learning about the Internet.
- [10:29]
Maddy Myers
They're still taking their. Their games culture, SATs, I guess. I don't know. Yeah, exactly.
- [10:35]
404 Media Host
They'll get there.
- [10:36]
Maddy Myers
Yeah.
- [10:37]
404 Media Host
So I just think that's. It's a. It's interesting kind of evolution. Why did you decide to get into games journalism to begin with? Like, how did you start writing about
- [10:45]
Maddy Myers
games so way, way back. We're going way back. I mean, obviously I played games my whole life, and I was gonna ask
- [10:51]
404 Media Host
you what your first video game ever was that you remember playing. So we can go that far back? We can go back to the crib.
- [10:56]
Maddy Myers
Yeah, let's go all the way back to that. It was bouncing babies, which is a DOS game. But let's not go back to that. We don't need to go back that far. I was like a toddler on my dad's knee playing bouncing babies on our ancient computer. I feel like I do have the trajectory that a lot of people have who started gaming really young, when they're still millennials, which is that my dad had access to computers from work and brought them home. And so I had computer access from a really young age. So they were very encouraging of me playing games, and that helped, I think but then that meant that I was reading a lot of games publications. And like most girls growing up in that era, they were aimed at boys. And that was something that was really confusing to me. After a certain point, once you get old enough to kind of understand what people are telling you about gender, you're really confused by it, usually. Cause you're like, this doesn't make any sense. Or at least that was my reaction where I was like, why am I being told that I'm not supposed to like certain things and that other people are allowed to like them? That's ridiculous. And I think those are things that are learned and not innate. Like, you do have to kind of teach those gender norms to people over the course of their life. And that's. I realize it's all theory, but that's a theory with which I agree. And so I found that pretty alienating. I also tended to be into a lot of games that were associated with boys. I really liked competitive games and competing. I liked fighting games and first person shooters the best. And I was super into them in high school and in college. And in college I was reading a bunch of games publications and I was reading IGN a lot because that's the biggest one. Still is now, I would say. And I remember feeling like their game reviews just weren't very well written, which I don't think is too cruel to say of like, early 2000s era IGN. I don't know that anybody looks back on that era of IGN and is like, boy, those are some great, great pieces. This was when they were doing like, Babe of the Week. Like, this is. This is the era of IGN that's been like deleted from IGN's archives. And where they've like posted apologies and been like, we've taken down Babe of the Week. We're so sorry they ever did Babe of the Week. That would be like, them literally posting photos of women who work in the games industry. It wasn't just like they were Lara Croft. They were posting like human women with jobs and being like, this is our Babe of the week. Which is just completely nuts that that's how game sites used to operate. So I was reading it and I was like, this sucks. First of all, I didn't identify as a feminist at this time. I was like, I'm just like a girl that plays games. And I feel like people should acknowledge that this is an audience that exists. And like, the more I read, the more I kind of became a feminist because of this. I was like radicalized by the fact that there was Nothing for. And so because of that, I was like, I should write about this. I love writing. I knew I wanted to be a writer, and I didn't know what kind, and I knew I liked games, and I thought they were really exciting and, like, this really cool art form. And so I ended up applying to a bunch of internships, writing internships, and magazine internships. But there was only one, the one at the Boston Phoenix, that mentioned video games. Because the Phoenix was actually one of the only, like, paper publications at that time, which is, like, we're talking mid to late 2000s, that was starting to put video games into the art section. So, like, picture a newspaper. Like, usually the art section is going to have dance, theater, music, reviews, movie reviews, obviously book reviews, all the classics, right? And then maybe they've got some comic book coverage in there. And that's like, they're kind of. They're including some nerds. It was so rare to have video games covered at all. And, like, to this day, the New York Times has, like, really occasional games coverage. Like, that's even. That is, like, a coup for them. So the fact that the Phoenix had a games column was so, like, exciting to me. And so I was like, this is a job I really want. So I really gunned hard for that one. And when they didn't call me back, I, like, did the thing my boomer parents told me to do, where I went to the office, and I, like, went to the receptionist, and I was like, I just want to ask some questions. Can I get an informational interview?
- [15:06]
404 Media Host
That did used to work.
- [15:07]
Maddy Myers
It did work, because they were so confused by it that they were like, okay, you're, like, coming here in person to beg for an unpaid internship. Sure, you can have that. You can continue to work here for free. This was before they were legally required to give you college credit, by the way. So I literally just worked at the Phoenix for free for a year and a half for no recompense. But it was great. And I got to do some game reviews in that era and learn how a newspaper worked. These are the kinds of jobs that I'm worried don't exist anymore, especially at local papers that essentially are gone everywhere. But I learned so much there, and I just thought everybody there was the coolest person in the world. And I still kind of think that. So, yeah, that was how it happened. I just kind of elbowed my way in and had, I think, an interesting enough perspective on games that they thought it was interesting. I mean, just. It's unfortunate, but, like, back then the fact that I was a woman, I'm sure they were like, oh, that's weird. A woman that's playing video games. All right, let's give that a shot.
- [16:12]
404 Media Host
This girl wants to write about games.
- [16:14]
Maddy Myers
Exactly. Yeah. So that, I'm sure, was part of what made me seem different.
- [16:20]
404 Media Host
I totally relate to a ton of that. And it was just a totally different era that I don't think actually does exist anymore. And that makes it hard to give any kind of real advice or guidance to anyone coming in now because it's like, how do you know you really can't just elbow your way into a lot of these places? And you kind of do have to just do it yourself in a lot of ways. So you and Zoe launched Mothership in January. So it's only been three and a half, four months.
- [16:46]
Maddy Myers
Yeah, we launched it at the end of January, too. So if you think about it, it's been like two and a half months. We have been so lucky, honestly, that there are so many other people like us, our wonderful readers, who are like, I also wish a publication like this existed. And I'm really excited to hear about it and read it and support it and that, I think before we launched it, I was like, what if only six people exist? You have no sense of this. And I'm sure you all felt this way launching 404, where you were like, how many people are there, really? Especially if you're going from working at a place like Vice that has such a foothold in Google search results. And that's where, I assume, so much of your traffic is coming from, where you're just like, there's people who are reading our articles and they aren't paying attention to our bylines. They don't know who we are. They're just Googling this topic and they're finding our reporting. And, like, that's how Polygon worked. And a lot of times, Kotaku slowly, over time, went from being a place where people would visit the homepage every day to also being at the mercy of Google. And that the idea of, like, convincing people to go back to how things used to be, where it's like, just go to the homepage of a website or subscribe to a specific website. It's such a shift in how we're asking people to think as readers, and it requires the onus to be on them so much more that I just. I understand people's doubt about it, too, where they're like, but this isn't what I do. I Google a topic and then I click on this thing or I scroll through Google News or my social media feeds, and I see what people are talking about, and then I click on the article from there to change. That mentality is scary. And so that's part of why I've been so relieved that there were enough people, maybe people who already knew who I was or who Zoe was or Polygon or whatever. Certainly a chunk of them are that. But I think they're also just people who found us based on the message of it and are like, this is just the kind of website I want, so I want to read it based on that.
- [18:45]
404 Media Host
Yeah, Yeah. I definitely want to get into, like, the monetization of it all, because that was for sure a learning curve. It was something that we knew that we needed to do immediately off the bat with 404. But you're asking a lot to say, give us $10 a month to help us keep this thing going. I mean, it's not a lot in the grand scheme of things, but it is like.
- [19:05]
Maddy Myers
But it is, though. I do understand that it's a lot.
- [19:09]
404 Media Host
Yeah, it's a lot. Person to person. It's like, can I have $10 so I can keep doing this journalism? It's like, that's a hard muscle to. To work when you're used to just, like, putting things on the Internet. And like, someone Googles porn and they find my articles because I'm on Vice. It's like. And then they're accidentally reading about, like, labor.
- [19:27]
Maddy Myers
It's a weird thing for them to click on if they were Googling porn. Mind you, they might have been looking for something else, but they ended up reading 404 Media.
- [19:34]
404 Media Host
It used to be just like, you could put like, porn in just the slug and the deck, and people would just click to it.
- [19:41]
Maddy Myers
I know. Well, because. Okay, so that's like a whole mentality shift on our part as reporters is that it's kind of amazing. And it took me a while of getting used to this. My wife was having to put up with me week after week, being like, we can just do whatever headline we want. It doesn't matter anymore. The URL doesn't matter anymore. That's not how people are reading our stories. It's not how people are sharing our stories or finding them. And she's like, you're saying this like it's a bad thing. And I'm like, no, I'm saying this in a shocked voice because I've spent the past 15 years of my life thinking about Google, and now I Don't think about it anymore. And instead I'm like, people are finding us organically, so then I need to incentivize them to find us organically by just writing something really cool that they want to share with someone else. It's old school. It's like how the Internet used to work.
- [20:30]
404 Media Host
Yeah. It's a more freeing way to write and I think it's a more, I mean, it's a more pleasant way to write anyway than having to think about like what a robot is gonna think about. My particular headline was just a very poisoned era of journal. And I think we're still in it, but with the new subscription models are coming out for sure.
- [20:50]
Maddy Myers
Yeah. Diminishing returns though, I would say.
- [20:53]
404 Media Host
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, it's just, it's getting harder and weirder to do that and a lot of people are just saying we're going to do it a different way.
- [21:07]
Ultra Pouches Advertiser
Have you ever noticed how automatic it becomes? Like you wake up and immediately reach for coffee and then it turns into multiple cups every few hours just to keep from crashing. I started realizing I was doing that way more than I wanted to and it wasn't even making me feel that good. I'd get that caffeine spike, then feel kind of jittery or just off, then I'd crash later. And honestly then I have trouble sleeping. It's like a bad cycle. That's why I started using Ultra Pouches and honestly they've been a pretty big shift for me. First off, these are completely nicotine free and caffeine free, which sounds weird at first because you're like, okay, then what's it actually doing? Ultra partnered with neuroscientists and built these nootropics and adaptogens designed for focus and smooth energy. So instead of a spike and a crash, it's more of a steady, clear headed focus. They've got things like infinity PX for clean energy, L theanine for calm focus, alpha GPC for mental processing, plus B6 and B12 for energy and mood. And you still get that pouch experience, just without the stuff that makes you feel wired or off later. I've been using these again for a couple of weeks now. I keep them at my desk and I'll pop one in when I'm starting work. It's just a smoother focus and I don't feel on edge like I did sometimes before. I've also noticed that I'm not getting that late day crash and my sleep's been a lot better, which makes sense because there's no caffeine hanging around in your system and they actually taste good. I just tried the new Blue Razz flavor and yeah, it's exactly what you want it to be. That sweet, slightly tart candy vibe. Probably my favorite so far. They've also got cool mint, wintergreen, tropical and watermelon. But again, Blue Razz is my favorite at the moment. Overall, it's just a cleaner way to get into that focused, locked in state without the usual trade offs. Ultra is the ultimate guilt free pouch, delivering instant focus and mental clarity without nicotine or caffeine. New customers can use code 404Media to get 15% off@takeultra.com that's takeultra.com for 15% off with code 404Media. After your purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them that 404 Media sent you. Spring is here, which means it's officially time to let those thighs breathe. I've been wearing Chubbies lately and I get why people are obsessed. These are the kind of shorts you throw on and immediately feel better. Like more comfortable, but also somehow more put together. I've been rotating through their original stretch shorts and the biggest thing is the fit. They've got that elastic waistband, they stretch, they move with you, but they still look clean. And you can pick your length depending on how bold you're feeling. 4 inch, 5.5 or 7 inch inseams. And if you're heading anywhere near water, their classic lined swim trunks are legit. I surf all the time and I always wear these when it's warm enough to not have a wetsuit and I get tons of compliments. They're super soft, quick drying and their built in liner actually feels good. Not like those old school liners that you wanted to immediately cut out. And then I've also added their Friday shirts to my rotation, which are lightweight and breathable. Perfect for just about anything this time of year. You can't really go wrong with anything with Chubby's, but again, I've been wearing their classic lined swim trunks like pretty much anytime I go to the beach. I live by the beach, so I'm there all the time. I feel like I practically live in these things. Uh, they're super comfortable and they actually look good without trying too hard. I also love that they come in like dozens and dozens of different styles, so at the end of the day it's just an easy spring upgrade. Better fit, better comfort, better vibe. Whether you're getting Dressed for your workday, a workout, or a weekend getaway, Chubby's has you covered for a limited time. Chubby's is giving our viewers 20% off your order with our code 404 media@chubby shorts.com that's code 404 mediaubbyshorts.com support our show and tell them we sent you. Don't blend in with the crowd. Stand out with Chubby's. I don't know about you, but I like actually seeing my money stay in my account. Unfortunately, for a long time my wireless bill did not feel that way. Between the high monthly costs, random fees and those free perks that somehow made the bill even higher, it just felt like I was overpaying every single month. That's why I finally switched to Mint Mobile. And the difference is honestly, kind of ridiculous. Instead of paying what I used to with a big carrier, I'm now getting premium wireless for way less. We're talking plans starting at just 15 bucks a month over a year. That's hundreds of dollars saved. Mint exists to fix the whole overpaying for wireless problem. You get high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network, just without the inflated price tag. It's also super easy to switch. You can bring your own phone and number, activate with ESIM in minutes and you're good to go. No long term contracts, no hassle. And right now you can ditch overpriced wireless and get three months of premium wireless service for 15 bucks a month. I've switched to Mint Mobile and honestly I have only really noticed the bill and that it's a lot lower. I still get really great wireless service at a very low cost. If you like your money, Mint Mobile is for you. Shop plans@mintmobile.com 404 Media that's mintmobile.com 404 Media upfront payment of $45 for a 3 month 5 gigabyte plan required, which is equivalent to $15 a month new customer offer for first 3 months only. Then full price plan options available, taxes and fees, extra c Mint Mobile for details.
- [26:57]
404 Media Host
So you and Zoe realized that you needed to launch this new thing. Walk me through that moment where you said we should try this versus like we should go work in, you know, comms or something. Like we should go freelance.
- [27:10]
Maddy Myers
Yeah, like we should, we should go into pr. I feel like in my telling my my miniature life story career story, I've sort of left out the part where I also became really jaded over time and Like, I think that kind of happens to everyone. Every. Every feminist, certainly, but like, also everyone about everyone, left leaning politics in general, I think, is that over the past decade I just started being like, maybe people don't even care about feminism anymore. You know, maybe people don't even care about having a specific angle for a story. It wouldn't even occurred to me in 2025 and 2026 to think about that. And so I really have to give credit to Zoe here because after we both quit Polygon and we're DMing each other on Discord and just talking about how existential we were being, like, what are we doing with our lives? She was the one who was like, you know, when I think about what I really want to do, it's actually found a feminist games website. And I was like, I feel like I'm talking to myself in the past. She's also 10 years younger than I am. I'm 39. And I feel like she is therefore at a different place in her career where she like, still. I mean, it sounds crazy, but it's like she still believes she can change the world. And like, we all actually still need to believe that, because we can. And as corny as that is, I'm like, we actually can. And we do a little bit every day. Because when I think about what changed my mind when I was a teenage girl and I was like, oh, I'm not a feminist. I was reading the Borderhouse, which was this old feminist gaming blog, and I was reading Shakesville, and I was reading feministgamers.com and all these livejournal groups and stuff. I was reading what was there and I was like, all right, they're making points. I see where they're coming from. I see what this feminism thing is all about. Those things really changed my mind and. And I want to be that for someone now. And I think we still need that. Like, it never stopped being necessary. And if anything, it's more necessary now because I look around and I'm like, no one's doing this. It just doesn't exist anymore. There's the Flytrap, which is a feminist newsletter that I read that's founded by a lot of feminist bloggers who've been around for a while even that. I'm like, that's one of the only examples I can think of that's kind of doing that type of thing. And it's upsetting. So I also am like, maybe we need to bring some of this energy back. Like, the men's rights movement is back. So maybe we need to bring some of this other energy back too, where we're like, actually, no, we don't have to. We don't have to live like this.
- [29:46]
404 Media Host
Yeah, actually, no, actually, it's just a complete sentence. So why did you decide to do a media outlet versus just going your freelance ways or trying to get another job?
- [30:01]
Maddy Myers
I think because the fact that Polygon was sold and the fact that I have watched other publications get sold, it really made it clear to me the extent to which I don't own my work. And that is a really upsetting feeling. If you've written as much as I have over the years, there's so many stories I own, don't own, rather, that are offline. For example, like, a ton of my Phoenix stories are really hard to access now. And like, some of my stories, like the URLs have changed multiple times. The layouts have changed multiple times. You can barely read them anymore.
- [30:33]
404 Media Host
That makes me crazy. When they change the link, I'm like,
- [30:37]
Maddy Myers
yeah, like, I used to have a writing portfolio on my website. I don't have it anymore because I'm like, I cannot keep up with where these URLs are even located anymore. Like, my own work is, like, ephemeral. And that's part of publishing online is that it is ephemeral. But I also have no control over what happens to it at this point. All my stories for the Mary sue are profiting Gamers Group, and they're making financial decisions they don't agree with. And all the stories that I wrote for Kotaku gave a profit to Jim Spanfeller. And all the stories that I wrote for Polygon are profiting Valnet. The list goes on. And of course they are. I'm making the most obvious statement in the world. This is what it is to have a job, right? You write these things, they don't belong to you. You have no right to them. And they made me money during the specific time period that I worked there, but now they don't make me money anymore, even though some of those stories actually still get traffic. And that is just sort of this inherently just kind of demoralizing thing. It's just like death by a thousand cuts, right? So after Polygon, I was like, this has happened to me too many times. I can't. If I'm going to do something like this again, I'm going to do it on my own terms. I'm going to own it. And that means that I've also created a freelance contract whereby there's A clause where freelancers can ask to republish the work after 30 days. And that may sound really simple, but a lot of contracts don't include things like that and that type of thing. I'm just like, like, let's just normalize it. Let's just make it so that people can own their own work and have it on their own terms if they want to. So that was a big reason, was that, that. And I'm like, if I found this website, I'm never going to sell it. I know my own morals. I'm going to own Mothership until it dies or I die. And that's it. With any luck, this will be the last job I ever have.
- [32:33]
404 Media Host
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that is how we view 44 also. It's like we don't know how to do anything else.
- [32:38]
Maddy Myers
Yeah, that too. I don't know how to do anything else.
- [32:41]
404 Media Host
Right. Yeah. It's like I don't have any other, any other skills that I could use to have a job anymore. So this is what we're doing. And that was kind of. That was the conclusion we came to also was like, we can't, we can't keep going in a world that we don't own this very important to us, very personally important and important to our readers. Work where, you know, like, the company that we're writing for can just change the URL, break the link, take it down entirely, cover it in the craziest ads and put it behind a subscription wall, which is new and interesting. But yeah, it's like just getting, getting used to archiving your work and doing that enough times and then realizing, oh, actually I don't want to have to. To think about this in the way that I'm thinking about it because I want to be able to know where my story is going to be in six months, in a year, so I can reference it again. Because this is all building on something that is a body of work and is relating to itself. And it's very frustrating when it disappears. And it does disappear. Sometimes it does.
- [33:45]
Maddy Myers
Or it's just that the person that owns your work previously is just not an operator with whom you agree anyway. And maybe that's a compromise you're willing to make for a time period, but then that person is willing to resell it it to someone else who also makes other decisions with it. And to just have all of that be out of your hands, it's tough. I mean, I think, like, if I had chosen to just freelance, I'm really appreciative that there's a lot of outlets that I could pitch to now, including 404, like all these other kind of independent outlets that I could write for, where I do actually feel that sense of trust, where I'm like, I don't think like Aftermath is going to sell their archives. I don't think that's gonna happen. And that gives me a lot of comfort too, to be like, even for the writers out there, I mean, I hope our freelance writers feel this way about us as well, where it's like, we're gonna try to look out for you every step of the way in a way that other jobs that you've had couldn't. Because the editor you were writing for also kind of didn't own their own section, didn't have a lot of control over what they even got to say yes to. And that's depressing. Like, we gotta put the power. Now I'm like saying my sermon from the mouth. We gotta put the power in the hands of the journalists. You know, like it's, that's how it. I think that's the only way though. We've all gotta learn how to use financial software and become small business owners. I don't like it either.
- [35:12]
404 Media Host
Unfortunately.
- [35:13]
Maddy Myers
It's better than the alternative. I've tried the alternative for a long time and this is better.
- [35:18]
404 Media Host
Yeah. And like, I mean, this is, it is something that, like, I think was a learning curve for us. For me in particular. Jason and Emmanuel were in some of the rooms where they were making some of the more higher level decisions at Motherboard, for example. But I was just a journalist before this and not thinking about the, not thinking about the financials very intentionally, they kept the rest of the team very separate from those decisions because they do tend to distract from the work. And so I'm wondering how you and Zoe are finding being business people now, running a company while also doing the work. Because it is, it does feel like two halves of your brain that you're having to navigate all day long, having to switch between, you know, how am I going to think about my subscription flow and then how am I going to think about getting this source to talk to me are two different things, but you have to do them both in the same 30 minute span.
- [36:16]
Maddy Myers
It's true, it's true. I, I think that takes getting used to. But I, I personally have the benefit of having been more in, I guess the Jason or manual role in the sense that at Polygon at least, and at Kotaku, I was deputy editor by the time I left and that meant that then when I went to Polygon and I was running the game section and I. I was in a lot of leadership meetings where we talked about our financials at Polygon. So I had a lot of insight into how the site was doing financially and what those decisions were. And that was really cool. I really appreciated getting all those ins because it taught me a lot and it showed me a lot about how you can make it work. And I think that's a huge benefit that I have. That and the fact that we launched TripleClick, which is my podcast, as an independent venture. TripleClick is also an LLC. It also has financials and things that we have to consider about how are we going to spend the money. And having had those experiences already, I'm just at such an advantage. I've realized, compared to a lot of other people who are like, I'm doing this for the first time, where I think it is getting dunked into corporations and just being like, oh, my God, there's so much to think about. This is really hard. And I don't wanna undersell that. It is just an advantage I had was that I already had to think about the business of a publication for many years before doing this. And I'm so grateful, honestly. It's just luck that I was able to be in those positions and also be let into those rooms earlier in my career so that I could make those decisions now. And. And also, it is kind of different now because Polygon obviously had a lot more money than Mothership does. So we were talking about very different amounts and also very different income streams. Like, Polygon did sponsored content, it did E Commerce, and it did ad deals. And those were, like, three pretty equal income streams. Each of those was, like one third of Polygon's income. We really had diversified income streams. And that was always, like, a huge comfort to us at Mothership. The stressful part is that we have one income stream and it's subscribers, and that's it. And, like, really what I think you're getting at is the fact that a lot of times in journalism, we're separate from ad deals, because psychologically, you don't want to be selling ads against your content because you don't want it to bias you. Like, even subconsciously. Like, you don't want to be in a position where you're like, okay, we are selling a bunch of ads to Star Trek this week. They got a new show and we got Star Trek all over the site. But, oh, we got an opinion story this week about how the new Star Trek sucks ass. Like, should we maybe not publish that? That's not even a conversation you wanna have, you know, you wanna just run that story without even knowing those Star Trek slash ads are gonna be there. You know what I mean? You wanna just not even have that be a consideration and not even have to think to yourself, oh, what if I piss off this advertiser? Ideally, you have that barrier to the degree that you have an advertising department that's like, oh, well, we pissed off this advertiser, but it's our job to find other ones. And it's why, if ever Mothership does sell ads, we are hoping to contract it out to someone who can do it for us. Because I already am aware of those psychological barriers and I don't want to have to face them. I don't want that to have to be a moral quandary I face. And so it's part of why we haven't got ads right now is because I'm like, this is a problem. We need to figure out how to do it. And I know you at 404 have chosen to have ads, and I'm sure this is a conversation you've had, and it's really hard. I think that's probably the hardest part is, like, the advertising barrier and trying to factor that in. But for now, we just are dealing with subscribers, which is also stressful because I'm like, my readers are literally paying my rent. I hope they like what we're doing because if they leave, then that's one less person's money. And it's, you know, you worry about things like that, but, you know, I'd be worried about anything. I'd be worried about anything at any other job.
- [40:09]
404 Media Host
So, yeah, there are worse things to worry about, honestly. And it is. I mean, the advertising thing is, like, it's interesting to see some of the other indies kind of where they land on this and like, where they evolve on this. It's something that we've had since we had the door open too, since the beginning. And then pretty early on we were like, actually, I think we can do this because it is another thing that we have control over. Unlike a publication where you're not in control of what ads are appearing next to your articles that you might not agree with and you might not support. We can say, actually, we can put down this, like, barrier between us. And we, we do have a. A service that does our ads and like, they're selling the ads, but we can talk to them directly. And that's Another piece of the company that we control.
- [40:53]
Maddy Myers
Yeah. Which is pretty empowering too, I would imagine.
- [40:56]
404 Media Host
Yeah, for sure. We can make those. Those decisions. But then also with the subscribers, it's like we've gotten to the point where the people who are coming to the site are not anymore. Our, like, friends, family and fans. They're new here, which is an interesting thing, and they have opinions about our coverage and they make them known. And they do sometimes say, I'm gonna unsubscribe because I don't agree with what you wrote. And that's their prerogative. That's totally fine. But it is something that you have to kind of get used to hearing and taking into consideration with a. A very small grain of salt. As long as you know what you're writing and what you're publishing is something that you believe in and you stand by, people will probably disagree with it sometimes and probably won't like it. And they won't like the other business decisions that we make either. And that's okay. You're not. You don't have to like everything we do. This is now a big group of us, like a big audience, a big readership. Thank God. That's a great problem to have. But, you know, people who are like. I'm not. People who are obviously not familiar with our work already coming in and saying, I think that you should cover it this way and that way. And we're kind of like the people who know us know. They know that we have and that we will and that we've. That this is all, again, part of a much larger conversation of our beads. But it is. The subscription model is such a different thing, and I'm sure it was such a learning curve for you guys also.
- [42:19]
Maddy Myers
It still is, I think. I mean, it's. After two and a half months, I'm still every day like, this is crazy. Like, this is a completely different way of thinking about college stories.
- [42:29]
404 Media Host
Yeah. We still learn new things about how to do it and the best ways to do it. And it's all good. It's all good learning.
- [42:35]
Maddy Myers
It is. And it's all ultimately so freeing comparatively, to write for people who are directly interested in what you are writing. Just that alone is huge.
- [42:48]
404 Media Host
Yeah, definitely. You wrote a piece that we'll link to in the show notes for the Guardian before launch or simultaneously with launch. And you wrote. The problem I saw with the idea of founding website that you've founded was not that people would. Wouldn't want it, but that they. You didn't see a good Way to pay for it. Journalism is facing a monetization crisis since the advent of the Internet. It's hard to convince readers to pay for something that they are used to getting for free. Um, and then I was listening to the the Post Games podcast with Chris Plant. That Chris Plant, your former Polygon colleague?
- [43:22]
Maddy Myers
Yeah, Former boss, now also an independent creator.
- [43:26]
404 Media Host
Yes.
- [43:27]
Maddy Myers
A small business owner of the podcast Post Game.
- [43:29]
404 Media Host
I'm also linked to that episode. It was a really good episode. Really interesting, that. Some of the history stuff I had no idea about. But you said in that podcast with Zoe, we need to renormalize paying for journalism, which, again, as we touched on earlier, is. It's something that audiences need to renormalize themselves with. And also journalists need to renormalize the idea that your work is worth more than, like, a click and that you do deserve to be compensated fairly for your labor. What a concept.
- [43:57]
Maddy Myers
This used to actually already be normal. So I was playing this game, News Tower, which is set in the 1930s, and you're a newspaper tycoon. In that game, you're actually a total degenerate newspaper tycoon who's in the pocket of the mob. So maybe as a comparison, isn't entirely fair, but something that really shocked me about that game because it's set during the Great Depression, so all of your readers are hard up, but they will pay for your newspaper because they have to. And one of the things that I did before deciding on the payment tiers for mothership was actually look up. I was like, okay, we're in hard economic times right now. Like in 2026, we are. How much were people paying for newspapers in the Great Depression? And let me, like, adjust that for inflation. And like, imagine, like, okay, how many stories were they publishing? That was actually part of how I decided that $7 a month was gonna be how much we charged was because I was like, I'm imagining a paper like ours, a really tiny paper. What would you charge for that? In a really tough economic time, but a time period when people were used to paying for journalism, what would that look like? Maybe that's crazy. I don't know. I love that. It just was like, how do I decide? How do I decide how much we charge? And that's how I settled on seven bucks a month. But I think that's about right. Seven to ten. It's kind of what a lot of our peers are paying or charging, rather. And I think it's reasonable. And I think we just have to start being like, this is Reasonable. And if this is what you want, you're paying for people to do a job, and that's what it is, and you're getting something in exchange for it.
- [45:27]
404 Media Host
Yeah. If you're sad when you see your favorite journalists get laid off. But you're also saying, I can't click on this because there's a paywall. I can't read this because you put a paywall up.
- [45:39]
Maddy Myers
Yeah.
- [45:40]
404 Media Host
I have questions about you as, like, you must be the median voter, because you're very confusing to me.
- [45:46]
Maddy Myers
Yeah, I mean, I think they probably are the medium voters, and I'm not sure any of them are actually reading our sites. I think those are just people who are complaining to dunk on us, but. But I also know there are people out there just from our back end. There are definitely people out there who I think are paying $7 one time to read an article and then leaving. And for the record, I'm okay with that, too. I'm happy to have that happen. I think that's okay too. You know, maybe you can only afford to pay it once, and you see some stories on our site that you're like, I really just want to read these. Great. That's okay too. It's all okay. If anything, I wish we had more models where I could let you pay a dollar for just one story. Our CMS hasn't implemented that functionality yet, but you pay what you can, when you can. As long as you're respecting the value of what we do, then we're golden.
- [46:31]
404 Media Host
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I only really have one question for you left, and it is an annoying one, and it is one that we get. Um, and it's not annoying that people ask it. It is annoying that I don't ever really have a very good answer because.
- [46:45]
Maddy Myers
So you're gonna stump me with it.
- [46:46]
404 Media Host
So I'm gonna stump you with it. But, I mean, maybe you probably have a much wiser answer than I do. Usually I'm like, I don't know. I don't know what tomorrow is gonna bring. But what do you see as your biggest challenge ahead of you? What are you seeing as, like, the next kind of barrier, the next, like, thing that you guys are gonna achieve that you're gonna jump over? Like, what's the. The horizon for you guys?
- [47:05]
Maddy Myers
So. So there's so many challenges already that it's like, oh, my God, I don't know. What's the next challenge? Jesus. I. It's like, I'm already. I'm worried about the current challenges, so I had I had gone into this just being like, well, maybe we'll get a few hundred subscribers, and that'll be a huge success. And, like, within a couple years, we'll have thousands, I hope. But we actually already got. We have about 2200 subscribers now, and that's huge. And, like, that is a huge number that I honestly didn't think we'd achieve so quickly. And so instead, I think our current challenges are about how best to spend the money. Because of our business model, we publish a ton of freelance stories, and that's because of the mission of our site. We want to publish marginalized people. We don't want the perspectives to just be me and Zoe. So the biggest chunk of the pie chart for us is actually our freelance budget every month, and then Zoe and I make less as a result. I'm hoping that eventually we can have enough subscribers that we can maintain that big freelance budget and pay Zoe and I more of a livable wage. That's, like, our next goal that I'm hoping we can reach. But my fear, like, if we're kind of casting further into the future, is what would it look like if we were to grow? Who would be the next person we would hire? What would that role be like? Thinking about that, I think, is really difficult, especially, like, looking at a landscape where so many of our peers have been laid off, and I know of so many talented people that I'm like, oh, I'd love to work with them. I'd love to work with them. And, like, at Polygon, I had this benefit of having dozens and dozens of coworkers. And, like, if I was publishing something about, I don't know, Resident Evil or whatever, I could be like, oh, my God, there's four people here who are big Resident Evil fans. And I could just send this draft to them and be like, are we screwing anything up? I've lost all of that. I don't have all that institutional knowledge. It's just me and Zoe, and we have Nicole Clarke and Alyssa Mercanti have been doing some freelance editing work for us. So it's not like there aren't more people who are working on editing for us, which is amazing. We're capable of paying freelance editors from our big freelance pot. But I'm just like, oh, it'd be so, so awesome if Mothership was a huge publication. But, like, what is the journey between here and there? I don't know. I hope to get there. I would love to be a big publication. I just. I don't know how we get there and I don't want to screw it up on the way. So that's what I, that's what I worry about is growth actually is like, how do we grow sustainably? And I think that's probably the same fear we all have, right? Like, how do we make this work and actually grow?
- [49:37]
404 Media Host
Yeah, yeah. And it does feel, it's like, I guess also just uniquely from journalism perspective of like, everything changes all the time. The next three months might not look like the last three months in the economy and the industry, you know, like, it's just everything could collapse at any moment. Is the mindset that we're coming out of as journalists who've been at these bigger outlets so having these problems of like, okay, now it feels like things are pretty stable. So now what is not a problem that I've had in a minute because I've not been able to like, think that project that far into the head. It's like, it's like, oh, when am I gonna get laid off?
- [50:12]
Maddy Myers
Yeah, I know. It's like, well, I better, I better treasure this job now because it could end at any time is how I have often thought about jobs.
- [50:18]
404 Media Host
Yeah, I better take the salary and like, get all my doctor's appointments in and get the PTO taken and like, like make sure everything is in order before I get laid off because that's going to happen in the next six months.
- [50:29]
Maddy Myers
How much dental work can I get done in the next year?
- [50:32]
404 Media Host
How many prescriptions do I need to fill? Yeah, and it's just getting out of that mindset, I think is. Is a big part of the first few months slash years, you know, now, now what? Everything is stable and we're in calmer seas. How do we grow this into something that feels really good and doesn't betray any of our original dreams and vision for the thing, but also evolves in a way that feels natural and sustainable. So if we figured out. Well, then, you know, Just kidding, I mean, well, it's about. It's something that we talk about literally all the time is growth and how to grow and when to grow and if to grow. I had a conversation last night that was with a. I went to a fellowship dinner at Columbia with mid career journalists and they're in business school and they were, they were like, what's your growth plan? And also what's the. How is the temptation to just be small forever?
- [51:28]
Maddy Myers
Yeah, I think that's completely reasonable. And there are absolutely days where I'm like, maybe mothership is me and Zoe forever and we Just keep increasing the freelance budget. I don't know.
- [51:37]
404 Media Host
Yeah. There are so many different ways to do it.
- [51:39]
Maddy Myers
I also don't really want that. I really do eventually want it to have more people. Yeah, I do. Yeah.
- [51:44]
404 Media Host
The collaborative aspect is huge.
- [51:47]
Maddy Myers
Yeah. Having full time coworkers, it can't be said enough. I mean, we've both been freelance writers at one time or another and I value them so much and appreciate so much what they do for us. But I'm also like, I want to be able to give more people full time jobs and also have more coworkers to interface with and help improve the site in like a longer term basis. And you gotta have that. We gotta get back to that reality within this sustainable model that we've created.
- [52:18]
404 Media Host
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I am so excited to see what's next for you two and for the site and for everything you're gonna do. It's so cool.
- [52:29]
Maddy Myers
Right back at you. It's so, so great that we exist in a world where 404 media can be read every day. It's wonderful.
- [52:36]
404 Media Host
Yeah. I mean, I feel like we, like the, the era that we're in, whatever it is, is very exciting with all the new indies coming out and we're all building on each other, learning from each other all the time. Which is my favorite part of doing this whole wacky, wacky thing that we're doing. So thank you so much for being here.
- [52:54]
Maddy Myers
Thanks for having me.
- [52:55]
404 Media Host
Everyone go to Mothership Blog. Subscribe immediately at the highest tier you possibly can. Make it a yearly subscription, please.
- [53:05]
Maddy Myers
I'm okay.
- [53:05]
404 Media Host
No, no, no, no, no, no.
- [53:07]
Maddy Myers
All right.
- [53:07]
404 Media Host
Make a yearly subscription. Make it recurring and yeah, support. Support Maddie and Zoe because their work is phenomenal. And go check out the site they just wrote about Marathon.
- [53:19]
Maddy Myers
Oh my God. Aren't we all worried about how it's doing? I'm.
- [53:22]
404 Media Host
I don't play it. I don't know anything about it. The guys were like, get out. And I was like, goodbye, Go talk about marathon. Because I do not know anything about it. So if you're listening to this and you just listen to that podcast, go read their marathon coverage. Because I. Maybe I'll go read it and I'll learn something. As a reminder, For Media is a journalist founded and supported by subscribers company. If you wish to subscribe to four four Media and directly support our work, please go to four for Media Co. You'll get unlimited access to our articles and an ad free version of this podcast. You'll also get to listen to the subscribers only section where we talk about a bonus story each week, which is where the marathon coverage is, I think. I haven't listened yet. This podcast is made in partnership with Kaleidoscope and Alyssa Midcalf. Another way to support us is by leaving a five star rating and review for the podcast. That really helps us out. This has been four four media. We'll see you again next time.