Border Czar Tom Homan - Exclusive One on One

Summary

Podcast Summary: The 47 Morning Update with Ben Ferguson
Episode: Border Czar Tom Homan - Exclusive One on One
Release Date: May 21, 2025

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Introduction

In this exclusive episode of The 47 Morning Update, host Ben Ferguson engages in a compelling discussion with Senator Ted Cruz and Border Czar Tom Homan. The conversation delves deep into the recent strides made in securing the U.S. border under the Trump administration's renewed efforts, contrasting sharply with the previous Biden administration's policies.

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Achievements Under Tom Homan and the Trump Administration

Tom Homan begins by outlining the significant improvements in border security since President Trump resumed office. Highlighting the drastic reduction in illegal crossings, Homan shares impressive statistics:

• Reduction in Illegal Crossings:
  "Under Biden administration, we were dealing with 10,000, 11,000 even a few times 15,000 aliens; today it was 211." [02:51]

• Gotaway Numbers:
  "We went from 13, 14,000 to 211. Yesterday, it was 39." [03:27]

• Discretionary Releases:
  "During the first hundred days, Trump administration had 1 discretionary release compared to 184,000 under Biden." [03:42]

These figures underscore the effectiveness of the Trump administration's policies in curbing illegal immigration and enhancing border security.

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Policy Changes and Their Impact

Jamie Rubin, acting as a spokesperson, emphasizes the pivotal executive orders issued by President Trump:

• Executive Orders:
  "Remain in Mexico, third safe country agreements, and ending catch and release were major game changers." [05:34]

• Legal Framework:
  "Under federal statute, an alien arrives at our border without proper documentation to enter. The language is 'you shall be detained.' We are enforcing that." [06:13]

These measures have not only reduced illegal crossings but also significantly impacted the operations of human and drug trafficking organizations.

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Sanctuary Cities and Accountability

The discussion shifts to the role of sanctuary cities in undermining border security:

• Dangers of Sanctuary Cities:
  "Sanctuary cities mean I don't have access to jail, arrest a bad guy. It's dangerous for everyone." [22:44]

• Accountability Measures:
  "We're holding sanctuary cities accountable, filing lawsuits, and working with the DOJ to ensure compliance." [23:13]

Tom Homan stresses that sanctuary cities hinder law enforcement efforts, posing significant risks to public safety by allowing dangerous individuals to remain in communities.

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Terrorism and Public Safety Concerns

Senator Ted Cruz raises alarms about the potential for terrorists entering the United States through porous borders:

• Terrorist Threats:
  "We're convinced we have over 2 million known gotaways. Some of these are from terrorist-sponsored countries." [25:44]

• Preventive Measures:
  "We've arrested over 400 people on terrorist watches coming to the southwest border." [25:56]

Homan concurs, highlighting the ongoing threat and the challenges in completely vetting every individual crossing the border.

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Drug Trafficking and Cartel Impact

The conversation addresses the rampant drug trafficking facilitated by lax border policies:

• Fentanyl Trafficking:
  "There's been a decrease in fentanyl seizures at the southern border, correlating with our enhanced security measures." [34:59]

• Cartel Revenues:
  "In 2018, Mexican cartels made roughly $500 million from human trafficking. Last year, it surged to over $13 billion." [35:53]

• Collaborative Efforts:
  "We need the U.S. to partner with Mexico to dismantle these powerful cartels effectively." [38:11]

The substantial increase in cartel revenues under Biden's administration is attributed to the lack of stringent border controls, exacerbating violence and corruption in Mexico.

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Legislation and Budget Initiatives

Ben Ferguson and Senator Cruz discuss forthcoming legislation aimed at bolstering border security:

• Reconciliation Bill:
  "We'll get funding for the wall, technology, more border and ICE agents, detention beds, and advanced surveillance systems." [10:19]

• Budget Requirements:
  "We need more infrastructure, technology upgrades, and sufficient detention beds to handle arrests efficiently." [07:49]

The proposed budget seeks to provide comprehensive resources to sustain and expand the successful measures already in place.

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Recent Events and Legal Accountability

Highlighting the importance of law and order, the podcast touches upon recent incidents involving elected officials:

• Congresswoman LaMonica McIver Incident:
  "Charges against her for assaulting an ICE officer send a strong message that no one is above the law." [40:34]

• Accountability Stance:
  "Even members of Congress must adhere to legal standards. This upholds the integrity of law enforcement operations." [40:34]

This segment underscores the administration's commitment to enforcing laws uniformly, ensuring that personal grievances do not impede national security efforts.

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with heartfelt acknowledgments of the hard work and dedication of border patrol and ICE agents:

• Acknowledgment of Efforts:
  "These men and women, they're mothers and fathers too. They put their lives on the line every day." [43:35]

• Closing Remarks:
  "God bless the men and women of Border Patrol, God bless the women of ICE, and God bless this great nation." [43:35]

Senator Cruz and Tom Homan are lauded for their pivotal roles in enhancing border security, with a collective emphasis on the continued need for robust measures to maintain national safety.

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Notable Quotes

• "We handed the Biden administration the most secure border ever had at that time." — Jamie Rubin [02:51]

• "President Trump's executive orders were a game changer." — Jamie Rubin [05:34]

• "Sanctuary cities mean I don't have access to jail, arrest a bad guy. It's dangerous for everyone." — Jamie Rubin [22:44]

• "We're convinced we have over 2 million known gotaways. Some of these are from terrorist-sponsored countries." — Sen. Ted Cruz [25:44]

• "We want to finish building the wall. It's a matter of enforcing the law." — Jamie Rubin [07:49]

• "Even members of Congress must adhere to legal standards." — Jamie Rubin [40:34]

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This episode provides an in-depth look at the current state of U.S. border security, emphasizing the significant progress made under the Trump administration's policies. Through robust discussions and compelling data, Ben Ferguson, alongside Senator Cruz and Tom Homan, paints a picture of a nation striving to reclaim its borders and ensure the safety and prosperity of its citizens.

Transcript

[Jamie Rubin]

You're listening to an iHeart podcast.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I'm Christiana Manpour and I've been on the front lines and interviewing world leaders for more than 30 years.

[Jamie Rubin]

And I'm Jamie Rubin, a former advisor to both Presidents Clinton and Biden.

[Christiane Amanpour]

We were married for 20 years and divorced for seven. Now we've joined forces on the X Files to make sense of how we ended up with no world order. Listen to Christiane Amanpour presents the X files on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

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[Ted Cruz]

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[Ben Ferguson]

Welcome. It is Verdict with Senator Ted Cruz, Ben Ferguson with you. Senator, one of the best things about getting to do this show is having on brilliant minds from within the administration who get to talk directly the American people. And today we get to have another very special guest, a good friend of yours, the border Czar is joining us and I'll let you take it from there.

[Ted Cruz]

Well, Tom Homan is serving as President Trump's Border Czar. He is the former Acting Director of the U.S. immigration and Customs Enforcement and he has been border Czar since Trump resumed office as president. His formal title, which I like, is White House Executive Associate Director of Enforcement and Removal Operations. And to be clear, his job is to secure the border, keep us safe, and remove dangerous illegal aliens. He's doing a hell of a job. Tom, welcome to Verdict.

[Jamie Rubin]

Thanks for having me.

[Ted Cruz]

So let's start with just how are we doing? We're four months in, almost five months into the Trump presidency. How are we doing Tell us what has happened since President Trump became president again on the border.

[Jamie Rubin]

Well, President Trump today. I'm talking to you today, Senator Cruz. We have the most secure border in the history of this nation today. Most secure border ever. I mean we even beat Trump 45. We handed the Biden administration most secure border ever had at that time.

[Ted Cruz]

Yep.

[Jamie Rubin]

But the data is even better now. And let me give you a few numbers, just a few numbers. Under Biden administration, we were dealing with 10,000, 11,000 even a few times 15,000 aliens today. Yesterday it was 211. We went from 13, 14,000 to 211.

[Ted Cruz]

And that's across the entire southwest border.

[Jamie Rubin]

Yes. Got away under Biden, an average got away day and under Biden was 1800 plus. 1800 plus. What was the gotaways yesterday? 39.

[Ted Cruz]

Wow.

[Jamie Rubin]

And then the most impressive number, the first hundred days on President Trump compared the first same time period last year. Under Biden, Biden released over 184,000 illegal ambulance in this country. The Trump administration won. There was nine releases, but four more material witnesses. As you know, we want them to come here to testify in a cartel trial. So four we want to come in. Four came across the border in such bad shape that we had to call an ambulance and take care of the medical needs. We had to allow them inside to do medical treatment. But we had 1,1 discretionary release compared to 184,000 released under the same time period. Biden most secure border history of this nation. Interior enforcement operations. ISIS arrested three times more criminals than Biden did during the same time period. We got more to rest. We got many more to rest, but they're already hitting the ball out of the park and we're going to keep doing it. We need to do more of it. And we're hoping for a budget real soon here so we can step up efforts there. But it's game changing. President Trump's been a game changer. And the men and women, vice and men and women, Borbatro stood up, took it on the task and President Trump did in seven weeks. But Joe Biden couldn't or wouldn't do in four years.

[Ted Cruz]

My favorite line from President Trump's most recent State of the Union address is when he said, you know, Joe Biden stood here a year ago and said that he couldn't secure the border without new legislation passing Congress. And then Trump said, it turns out we didn't need new legislation, we just needed a new president. And that's powerfully true. So let me ask just a Simple question for those. Look, you're an immigration expert, but for someone at home, how did the numbers drop so precipitously? What specifically are y' all doing differently than what Joe Biden and Kamala Harris did?

[Jamie Rubin]

The biggest thing we've done is the president's executive orders were a game changer. Remain in Mexico a game changer. Have the third safe country agreements a game changer. And finally ending catch and release. People know you come to our border now, you're not being released. And we just found the law because as you know, under, under federal statute, an alien arrives at our border without proper documentation to enter. The language is you shall be detained. Not maybe not. Think about it. Not problem Shell. And that's exactly what we're doing. Those three things by themselves have been a major game changer and all three of them were by President Trump.

[Ben Ferguson]

I want to talk to you real quick about the international fellowship of Christians and Jews. Most of us, when we go to bed at night, we don't have to worry about there being an explosion that awakes us in the middle of the evening. We climb into our beds, we turn off the lights and we sleep in relative safety. But the people of Israel are facing non stop threats on seven different fronts. They do have a red alert system to warn of incoming attacks. And last month red Alerts blared nearly 50 times every single day. Something we can't imagine living with. The toll on families and first responders is brutal. And right now, Israel's first responders are facing an urgent need. Life saving supplies that are running low. And that's why the work of the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews is so critical. Your gift of only $150 will help provide first responders with helmets, flat jackets, medical rescue bags, and even armored service vehicles to keep people alive. Your gift is urgently needed. And if you want to stand with the people of Israel, you can call 888-488-IFCJ. That's 888-488-4325. You can also give securely online at ifcj.org. that's if cj.org you mentioned budget a moment ago and how important it is to have the budget for you guys to continue your job. Explain for everyone listening, is that referencing the big beautiful bill and what is in there that you need so much to continue to do your job at the border?

[Jamie Rubin]

Well, we want to make the border secure permanently. So we need more infrastructure, right? So we need to finish building a wall. Now let's be clear. Every place they build a Border barrier, illegal immigrations went down, illegal drug flow went down. But most importantly, Wal women and children can't get over that wall. The most vulnerable. So they go to a place where there's not a wall and what's waiting on them, the men and women of the border patrol, first of all. So the ball saves lives. So we need to finish the border barrier. We need money to finish the technology within the existing border wall. Because not only did President Biden stop the construction of the wall, he stopped adding the technology in that smart wall. Technology that lets us know when someone climbs that wall, touches wall, dig under that wall. Technology where borb patrol agents in the middle of nowhere and can get on a radio and use a wall as a repeater to talk to other agents for help. There are some places on the southern border where they lose all communication. So all that technology needs to be done. More technology at port of entry to make sure no fentanyl is coming through. And as far as the interior enforcement, we need beds. Right now we got about 52,000 people in detention. We're funded at 34,000. ICE is already in the hole. We need about 100,000 beds because everybody we arrest needs a bed. We just don't arrest somebody in New York City and put them on plain leave. We got to detain for several days to several weeks to get travel documents, get flight arrangements, flight clearances. So we need beds. So we need, you know, so this budget that, the pending budget right now, the big beautiful bill will give us money for those beds. They're going to give us thousands of more border agents, thousands more ICE agents. It's going to give ICE a budget to bring in more contracts up. What I mean by that, badges and guns shouldn't be sitting at a desk doing reports of processing. They shouldn't be sitting at a desk doing travel documents and all the, all the administrative duties that occur within ice. You can have a contractor sitting there doing that work. Give that badge and gun, get him out on the street to arrest the public safety threats and national security threats. So we need the money. Like I said, we're doing more than Biden did. But Biden wasn't doing anything. We need to do 10 times more than Biden too, not three times more. And I'll leave you with this. We got 700,000 illegal aliens in this country with a criminal conviction walking the streets of this country. We got to get them. We got to get them quickly. We got 1.4 million illegal aliens who do had due process at great taxpayer expense were ordered removed by a federal judge and didn't leave and they become fugitives. We got a lot of work to do and we need money to do more. We're doing good, but more money we have, the more we can do well.

[Ted Cruz]

And Ben, I'll say this, that Congress, we will get this reconciliation bill passed. It's going to take time, it's going to be bumpy, but we'll get it done. And when we get it done, we're going to have funding to build the wall, we're going to have funding for technology on the wall, we're going to have funding for more border patrol agents, we're going to have funding for more ICE agents, we're going to have funding for more detention beds, we're going to have funding for more fixed wing and rotary wing aircraft. We're going to have funding for more drones and more infrared and technology. We are stepping in now. It's going to take a little bit of time to get the bill across the finish line, but I'm confident we'll do it. And I will say it really underscores something we've said on Verdict many times, which is the most important factor in securing the border. And this is what Tom said just a minute ago, is a policy decision and it is a decision. What happens when you apprehend an illegal immigrant? And if the answer is you put them on a plane and you fly them back home, they all have cell phones, they pick up their phones and they call home and they say, don't come, they're not letting you stay. And the flip side is true. If when you apprehend them, you let them go, you say, what city do you want to go to? And you put them on a plane, you put them on a bus and you let them go in every city in America, which is what Joe Biden was doing again, they all have phones. They pick up the phone, they call their friends and family and the numbers skyrocket. And so when President Trump left office the first time, he had produced the lowest rate of illegal immigration in 45 years. That's what Joe Biden inherited. It immediately skyrocketed to the worst rate of illegal immigration in history. Joe Biden allowed 12 million illegal immigrants to come into this country. And regular listeners of Verdict will recall. I predicted, I said we will see the numbers plummet and it won't take a year, it won't even take six months. It will happen immediately. Because on day one, catch and release is going to end and we're gonna see the numbers Plummet. Now, all that being said, Tom, let me ask you honestly, I will admit I predicted loudly that the numbers would plummet. I'll confess, I didn't think they'd drop over 99%. Are you. I'm surprised at just how massive the success is. Are you a little bit surprised or no?

[Jamie Rubin]

I'm not surprised about the success. I'm surprised how fast that happened. When President Trump, when he called me, asked me to be the border czar, of course I didn't hesitate. Came back and the first meeting he had, he asked me, how long would it take you, Tom, to secure the border? I said, sir, I need. I need at least 120 days. He says, well, look at a 90. I said, sir, all the respect. 120 days. Even pushing it. We did this seven weeks. Seven weeks. Numbers already down 90%. And you're exactly right. Everything you said was right. But I want to add one thing. When Joe Biden opened that border up, he's the first president in the history of this nation who came into office and unsecured a border on purpose. This wasn't mismanagement, this wasn't incompetence. He ran on open borders and that's exactly what he did. You know, so when you tell the whole world you enter this country legally, don't worry about it, we're going to release you anyways. And when you got a secretary, my orchestra ice. You can't arrest somebody for being here illegally unless they got a serious criminal conviction. The whole world's going to come. You can cross the border illegally. You get released in 24 hours. We won't give you a free plane ticket to the city of your choice. We're going to put you in a free hotel room. We're going to give you three meals a day, we're going to give you free medical attention, and guess what? Hang out for 120 days. We're going to give you a work authorization. The very reason they came here, not because of asylum, because they wanted a job. So Biden did what he did on purpose. And President Trump came back in seven weeks again. Seven weeks. Did what Joe Biden couldn't do or wouldn't do.

[Ted Cruz]

Repeat the numbers you said about how many illegals are in the US Right now who have criminal convictions. And to be clear, these are convictions for crimes other than crossing illegally into the country. Every illegal has committed that crime. But how many have convictions for murder, for rape, for other crimes other than crossing the border illegally?

[Jamie Rubin]

Just under 700,000.

[Ted Cruz]

I mean, that is a stunning number. And what you're saying, and I agree with you, is that Joe Biden deliberately chose. We're going to leave murderers here. We're going to leave rapists in America. We're gonna leave child molesters in America. We're not gonna send ICE to arrest them. We're not gonna pick them up, we're not gonna deport them. That they put partisan politics above protecting American families, above protecting our kids.

[Jamie Rubin]

That's why I woke up four years pissed off every morning. President Trump, when he called me, asked me to come back, and he said to me, you've been bitching about it for four years. Wanna come back and fix it? And I did. Because I knew every morning I wake up, and Senator, you know this just as well as I do. I knew every morning when I woke up how many children died crossing the border last night.

[Ted Cruz]

Yeah.

[Jamie Rubin]

How many women got sexually assaulted? How many people on terrorist rosters got across the border? How many women and children were sex trafficking in this country? How many billions of dollars did the cartels make? How many Americans died in the last 24 hours from fentanyl coming across the open border for four years? I was pissed off. President Trump came back. Like I said, in seven weeks, we had a border down 90% in seven weeks. So, you know, like you said, it was a matter of President. A matter of enforcing the law. You know, I'll tell you, Senator Cruz, and, you know, every time I see in the meeting, every. Every time I see you in a meeting, I call you out. I call you out because you've been the tip of the spear on this thing. I appreciate your work in us. You're from Texas, you know, and God bless Governor Abbott, and Governor Abbott did. He was more of a Secretary of Homeland Security Mark has ever been or ever thought of being. So God bless state of Texas. They took the. They took the first rail on this. And again, I can't thank you enough. Every time I see, I call you out. Thank you for being the tip of the spear. I see you everywhere wanting to secure border. And you're fighting hard for me, and you're fighting hard for the men and women of Border Patrol. You're fighting hard for the men and women of ice. I love each and every one of those men that put their lives on the line for this country every day. Men and women. And I appreciate your fight for them. You've had their six from day one, and I love you for it. I appreciate it.

[Ted Cruz]

Well, Tom, let me thank you for that. I appreciate that. And I appreciate your passion and commitment. You're showing up and you said something that I think is really important for our listeners to understand. You and President Trump right now are quite literally saving lives. You are saving lives. There are Americans and there are significant number of Americans who are alive today because a violent criminal did not cross the border, was not released and didn't murder them. There are women who have not been raped because you've stopped the Biden practice of releasing rapists. There are children and the number of children who haven't been physically and sexually assaulted by human traffickers, it is already, I think, well into the thousands. And I want you to think about that. Thousands of little girls, thousands of little boys have not been violently, repeatedly raped by human traffickers. Why? Because President Trump came in and because you've been the borders, are implementing it and secured the border and those kids are no longer being trafficked. That is a profound legacy in just four or five months.

[Jamie Rubin]

And let me go one step further. Trump asked me to do three things. Secure the border, run the largest, largest deportation operators ever seen, and find these children. The Biden administration, over half a million children were smuggling in this country, separated from their families, smuggled in this country and put in the hands of sponsors, many unvetted sponsors. The last administration lost track of 300,000 of them. President Trump's committed to finding as many as he can. We've already found over 7,500 of them.

[Ted Cruz]

Wow.

[Jamie Rubin]

Some of them were perfectly safe with family, some were perfectly safe and some weren't. Example, just there for yesterday, a 14 year old little girl, already sex trafficked, was pregnant, living with two men who were trafficking there. Well, they're going to prison and we're helping that little girl. So we're going to rescue every one of these little girls and make sure that they're safe because many of them are going to be okay with family members. They just didn't respond to problems or so forth. But many, I guarantee, I've been doing this for over 40 years. Many of them are in sex trafficking, many of them are in forced labor, living a life of hell every day. We're committed to finding every one of these little children and making sure they're safe.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I'm Christiana Manpour and I've been on the front lines and interviewing world leaders for more than 30 years.

[Jamie Rubin]

And I'm Jamie Rubin, a former advisor.

[Ben Ferguson]

To both Presidents Clinton and Biden.

[Christiane Amanpour]

We were married for 20 years and divorced for seven. Now we've joined forces on the X Files to make sense of how we ended up with no world order. Listen to Christiane Amanpour presents the X files on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts.

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[Ted Cruz]

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[Ben Ferguson]

Tom, you mentioned finding them all. Let's talk about sanctuary cities for a second. It's very clear Democrats are not backing off of that. How dangerous is the policy and who is being harbored in these cities that are refusing to work with you guys? Will there be accountability? Are they harboring Ms. 13 gang members and domestic terrorists? Foreign terrorists. Those that are putting the fentanyl out in society. How dangerous are these cities?

[Jamie Rubin]

Well, they're dangerous. They're dangerous for everybody because in a sanctuary city means I don't have access to jail, arrest a bad guy. Public safety threat. In the safety and security of a jail, were the aliens safe, the officer safe and the public safe? When sanctuary cities knowingly release a public safety threat back in the street, it certainly puts the community at risk, even puts the alien at risk because anything can happen during a street arrest. And a great, it puts the officers at great risk because now we got arrest of a criminal alien public safety threat on his turf. He has access to who knows what weapons. It's very dangerous. And yes, we'll hold sanctuary cities accountable. It's Pam. Bonnie's already filed lawsuits against several. We're, we're, we're working with DOJ now. Again, we want, we want. Where's that bright? Where's that where's that line? When do you cross that line? You can sit there and watch ICE do your job. Because here's what irritates me the most. I don't care what party you're in, if you're an elected mayor, elected city council person or elected governor, your number one responsibility is the safety and security of your neighborhoods, your communities. ICE has been clear from the beginning with President Trump. We're going to prioritize public safety threats and national security threats. Why will you not help us make your community safer? There's no downside on that. And sanctuary cities want to argue. Well, we're a sanctuary city because we want victims and witnesses of crime, if they're illegally in the United States, to feel comfortable coming to the law enforcement without fear of working with others. That is a bunch of crap. Victims and witnesses of crime don't want the bad guy in the neighborhood either. And as far as the illegal alien community, I'll say this. Despite being here illegally, many of them are God fearing family people. They don't want a predator in their neighborhood either. They don't want someone convicted DUI 10 times driving through their neighborhood either. So, you know, if you go to the immigrant community and ask them one simple question, would you rather have ICE operating in the jail or in your community? What do you think they're going to say? They're going to say the jail. So sanctuary cities will be held accountable. Matter of fact, we're reissuing the ICE detainer. We just changed the new ICE detainer. We're letting them black and white. Let them know this person is a designated terrorist. This person is a designated returned felon. We're going to let them know exactly who they're detaining based on biographic and biometric information and see what they do. Are they going to violate Lake and Riley Act? Then we'll go out to prosecution. Are they going to normally release a terrorist? Then we're going to go out to prosecution. So it's about to get a lot tougher and it's the right thing to do.

[Ted Cruz]

Well, and let me ask you, how worried are you that there are terrorists who came across the southern border in the last four years that are out there and that are planning acts of terror in the United States right now?

[Jamie Rubin]

I'm convinced we got over 2 million known got aways. Why did 2 million people pay more to get away? They pay the cartels a lot more money to escape apprehension and get to New York and Chicago. Weber, why did they pay less? Why would you pay more to get away because you don't want to be vetted, you don't want to be fingerprinted. This just scared the hell out of every American. Scares the hell out of me. Somebody's going to be, you know, child traffickers. Some of these are carrying fentanyl and some of these are going to be people from a terrorist sponsored country under Joe Biden. We arrest over 400 people on terrorist watches coming to the southwest border. If you don't think a single one of the 2 million got aways, didn't come from a country sponsoring terror, didn't come here to do us harm, then you're just crazy. As you know, it was. What was it? Just not a few months ago, we arrested eight that were planning a terrorist attack, a Russian type terrorist attack in the United States. Luckily, the intelligence community call them on some chat and we were able to arrest them. But we're not perfect. The intelligence community isn't perfect. They weren't perfect in Afghanistan. They weren't perfect on a lot of things. So God help us. I think they're here. There's intelligence reports saying they're here. We know where some are and being monitored, but we don't know where others are. So that scares the hell out of me.

[Ted Cruz]

Well, and as you know, Chris Wray, the former director of the FBI, every few months would come to Congress and he would do everything but set off an alarm and bang a drum to say we are at major risk of a terrorist attack from the open borders. Hamas and Hezbollah have declared jihads on America. As you know, the border patrol under Joe Biden was advised beyond on the lookout for Hamas, Hezbollah and Palestinian Islamic Jihad terrorists coming across the southern border. And one of the things, Tom, you said that was really important, of the 12 million illegal immigrants that came under Joe Biden, roughly 2 million of those were gotaways. That's by far the most troubling of all those folks. The other 10 million are people who are apprehended. And apprehended in many instances is the wrong term because as you know, and I spent a lot of time down on the southern border. I almost always go out on midnight patrol with the border patrol agents when I'm there. Apprehended doesn't even characterize what they were doing. Most nights people would cross the border and they'd go look for a border patrol agent and actively turn themselves in because the result would be that Joe Biden would say, where do you want to go? And would fly them to wherever they wanted. To be literally, the Biden administration was the last mile of the human trafficking network. But Tom, what you said is exactly right. Those 2 million gotaways are much more likely to be violent criminals, much more likely to be murderers or rapists or child molesters, much more likely to be Ms. 13 gang members, much more likely to be terrorists. And that's the population that is most worrisome. And speaking of Ms. 13 gang members, just when I thought politics could not get weirder, the Democrats have decided to go all in, making their central party platform be that we should admit more illegal aliens. And in particular we want more Venezuelan gang members. Ms. 13 gang members here. And they've decided that Kilmar Abrego Garcia is their poster child for the Democrat Party. Tom, how confident? Tell us about Abrego Garcia. How confident are you that he's a gang member, that he's a criminal?

[Jamie Rubin]

I'm very confident. And I've talked to the head of vice numerous times. People don't understand. So he got no due process. Yes, he did. He got due process from two different federal judges who said he's illegal in the United States, a citizen El Salvador, and he gave an order of deportation. He had a great due process, a great taxpayer expense. On top of that, men and women, ice. And they sent those two plane loads of TDA and MS.13. Hundreds and hundreds of hours were spent on every case. They went through the criminal history, the immigration history, they went through intelligence report, they went through confidential informant statements, they went through wiretaps, they went through a bunch of stuff to certify these people were members of TDA and Ms. 13. So they got due process several times. Obrego Garcia's home. He's a citizen of El Salvador. And for those the Democrats say, well, they made a mistake. I still say it was a mistake. It was an oversight, a temporary oversight. Because here's the problem. He had a withholding order. He'd not be returned to El Salvador because he feared death from a gang. Two things have changed since that order was given. Number one, he's a designated terrorist. So that withholding order has been set aside. Number two, the gang he feared no longer exists in El Salvador because of great work President Bukele did there. So the circumstances surround that withholding order are no longer valid. And here's what would happen if somebody was make this guy return to the United States. He would be detained and removed the next day. If not to El Salvador, to another country. He is not here. But as President Bukele said, he is A certified national of El Salvador. He has home. He has home. He is a certified MS.13 member. Not just by ICE, by local police departments, intelligence reports, immigration judges in the country of El Salvador says his MS.13 member, he's home. He's exactly where he should be. This country, his wife, his neighborhood is a lot safer because he's locked up.

[Ben Ferguson]

I want to go back to accountability for a second, Tom, and I want to ask you. There are a lot of people that believe that there were laws that were broken deliberately in the last administration. They knew they were breaking the law. One of those would be former Homeland Security Secretary Mayorkas that you mentioned a moment ago. Should he be criminally prosecuted for his role in the border crisis if it was as deliberate as it now seems?

[Jamie Rubin]

Look, I think what he did was borderline treasonous. I'm not an attorney, I'm not a prosecutor. But what he did, he did more damage to this country. Him and the Biden administration, what they did to this country. I can tell you when they open that border up, sex trafficking, women and children increase tenfold. A record number of migrants died making that journey. Over 4,000. A record number of Americans died from fentanyl that come across that open border. And it's just what he calls this country. And from a national security perspective, because here's what his orders were. Process quick release quick. They didn't care about the crisis, they cared about the optics of the crisis. If there's no overcrowding, there's nothing to see here. So border trades were processed as quick as they could and releasing as quick as they could. And there's been several instances where they released so quickly, the FBI scanned and come back and it came back hot after they already been released. They came back as a known inspector terror. So, yeah, what he did was unconscionable. What he did is, in my opinion, borderline treasonous. He should be held accountable because a lot of deaths occurred under his watch. And look at, like Senator Cruz said a few minutes ago, right now, 96% decline in illegal immigration when 96% less people are coming. How many women aren't being raped? How many children aren't dying crossing that border? How many no suspected terrorists aren't getting in the country. How many pounds of fentanyl is not getting in the country. What are you going to see? Under President Trump's administration, fentanyl deaths would decrease. Sex trafficking would decrease, Smuggling would decrease. And no inspector terrorists, they got no open that anymore. Now that we got the board secure every single border patrol Agent is on the line on patrol doing his national security duty under Joe Biden. It was an average, Most days, an average 70%. 7 0. 70% of agents were no longer on patrol. They were changing diapers, making baby formula, making hospital runs. The last time I went down there, before the election, I talked to hundreds of board police and told them, hang on, hang on, change is coming. I really think President Trump's going to win. Where they told me no. We're sick of being tourist stations. We're sick of being Uber drivers. We process and deliver these people to the very same people who pay for their smuggling. They couldn't recruit. They couldn't. People were quitting. They were quitting before they were even eligible for retirement. They couldn't read the recruiting numbers. You know, last month, ice. Excuse me, Borbatro had the highest recruiting numbers and the history of that agency just last month.

[Ted Cruz]

That's fantastic. And look, I will say Tom is not exaggerating at all. Like when I would visit with border patrol agents, the frustration. Look, the men and women who sign up for the border patrol, they do do so because they're patriots. They do so because they love America. They do so because they want to keep our communities and our families and our kids. Kids safe and they want to be out on patrol. Look, that's what you sign up in the job. And they were sitting there just shuffling paperwork. They were processing and just running a revolving door to try to release as many illegal immigrants as fast as possible. That's what mayorkas. Look, viewed his job is accelerate illegal immigration, not stop it, but make it go more quickly. Let me ask you, Tom, you mentioned fentanyl. What do we know about the numbers of fentanyl traffic over the first four months of the Trump administration?

[Jamie Rubin]

There's been a decrease. And I've got from three or four different sources, the percentage decreases different from every source. The problem is the CDC doesn't have good metrics on fentanyl. But look across the country, you can see the decrease in fentanyl. Fentanyl is being seized on the southern border and it's the metrics. And that's maybe something you all could work on up there in the Senate. CDC needs to track this more. More, more accurately. Like I said, you got. You got a number of deaths reported by states, you got a number of deaths reported by cdc. None of them match. So. But we do know there's been a reduction. You don't see, you know, 300 people dying every day from fat loss. We did that. Did see, right we know we don't have two 9, 11's a week happening from kids dying from fentanyl. So I don't have exact numbers, but we already see the effects of a secure border.

[Ted Cruz]

And, Tom, let me ask you also. So one of the things we've talked about on this podcast. In 2018, the Mexican drug cartels made roughly $500 million from human trafficking. Last year, the drug cartels made over $13 billion from human trafficking. That's a 2,600% increase. Do we have any data yet? Do you have any visibility on what has happened to the drug cartel's revenue? Because one of the worst consequences of what Biden's open border did is it turned these vicious, murderous, transnational criminal organizations into incredibly wealthy powerhouses, and it put huge resources in their pockets. Do you have any data on what's happened to their revenues?

[Jamie Rubin]

Well, one of the best things President Trump did was designated terrorist organization, because these cartels have killed more Americans than every terrorist organization in the world combined. We knew that's why there's so much violence in Mexico. The last four years, cartels were fighting each other for control of the plazas. Why? Because they're making record amounts of money smuggling people, record amount of money in trafficking women and children, and a record amount of money moving dope across that border. Now, with the border secure, we're hitting them where it hurts. Smuggling's down. Both drugs and people trafficking is down. So we're hitting where it hurts. That's why the latest intelligence reports I see they're trying to produce and push more fentanyl into Asia and European nations because their market here in United States has been so brutally attacked. I wish what would happen is that Mexico would agree with President Trump to let us help them take the cartels and wipe them off the face of the earth. Because right now, they're like the Jalisco cartel. They're in 44 countries around the globe. They're like a Fortune 500 company. It's going to take the United States to take them out. Mexico's failed for decades to do it. And a lot of Mexico, you know that military, police and government officials are corrupt. I'll say this. A lot of the corruption is forced corruption because you're a police officer in Mexico, you're making, you know, $400 a month. But a Mexican cartel comes up and offers you 10,000, look the other way, and you're going to take it or they're going to kill you and your family. I think Mexico will be a much Safer, a much more prosperous country if they let President Trump help them wipe the cartels off the face of the earth.

[Ted Cruz]

Look, that is absolutely right. Let me underscore that point. A lot of people don't realize, particularly those on the left, that what Joe Biden and the Democrats did, it wasn't just horribly cruel to the American people, it was horribly cruel to Mexican nationals in Mexico. Turning these vicious criminals into the most powerful economic force in Mexico has increased the murder rate, the crime rate, the kidnapping rate. I visited with a Mexican mayor of a town on the other side of the border, and I'm not gonna say which mayor, because he told me in confidence, because he was afraid, but he said in his town they had had over 3,000 disappearances. Just people, Mexican nationals living in Mexico who just ran afoul of the cartel and they just disappear and they find mass graves. And the suffering and murder and kidnapping that has happened in Mexico because of the Democrats political decision, I think was cruel and horrible. And, Tom, you're exactly right that the US Military can take out the cartels. And we've done it before in Colombia. President Uribe asked the military to come in and take out the cartels in Colombia, and we came in and did that, and we could do it again. And I do think it would be much better if the Mexican government invited us in. It would have transformational impact within Mexico.

[Jamie Rubin]

Save a lot of lives. Like, say, Mexican cartels have killed thousands of judges and prosecutors and journalists and citizens. So, you know, I wish they. I wish they joined with President Trump, because that would be a game changer for Mexico and the United States.

[Ted Cruz]

All right, final question. We saw just this week that New Jersey Democrat Congresswoman LaMonica McIver was charged for assaulting law enforcement at an ICE facility. Tell us how important that is. And what do you think about the fact that charges were brought for assault? We saw during the Biden administration repeatedly law enforcement, Customs, border patrol, ICE agents were subject to physical assault. No charges were brought. How important is it that these charges were brought?

[Jamie Rubin]

The sons of Strong messages is very important. It also proves I don't bluff. I'd said from the day of inauguration, if you want to not support ice, well, shame on you. But you have that right. If you want to protest against ICE and protest against Trump's policies, that's fine. If you want to watch ICE come in and clean your city up because you're a sanctuary city, don't want to help, you can do that, too. But I said from day one, you can't Cross that line. You can't cross the line of impediment. That's a felony. You can't cross the line. Annoying and harboring, concealing of illegal ambulance, that's a felony. You certainly can't commit criminal trespasses at our facilities. And for God's sakes, you can't put hands on IO officers. And this happened during the same time frame, the same week. I went to Blue Mass in Washington, D.C. in remembrance of the men and women of law enforcement put their lives on the line for this country every day. So we spent a week. No. Just praising these men and women talking to their families who also pay the ultimate sacrifice. They lost a loved one forever. Children lost their fathers and mothers and mothers. Fathers lost their sons and daughters in the same week. We're supposed to be honoring law enforcement. You got. You got some member of Congress put their hands and shoving an ICE officer, which makes that facility very unsafe. And I'm sick and tired of hearing, well, we have congressional oversight responsibilities. There is a right way and wrong way to do it. You don't force your way in a facility. You don't put hands on an officer. There's. We do oversight all the time. And what are they finding out as people are getting tours, not facility, that they have the high se tension standards in the industry. And it puts every. Every other detention center in jail in the state of New Jersey, whether it's a county or state, it puts them to shame because our detention standards are so high. So when you go and cause that kind of practice, what we're trying to maintain of a city with very dangerous people inside, we got to protect not only the criminals, we got to protect the employees and the citizens on the outside. What she did was just horrendous. She put hands on an officer like they said, for four years, no one's above the law. You damn right they're not above the law. Even members of Congress. The president is above the law. But these are members of Congress.

[Ted Cruz]

Look. Amen. And I will say, Tom, I've visited dozens of ICE facilities and CBP facilities. I've never found it difficult to refrain from physical assault on an officer. Somehow that temptation was never there for me. And in fact, for the opposite, it is my job to have their backs. That's a job I take incredibly seriously. And I just want to say, Tom, you are a patriot. You are a great American. We have roughly a million unique listeners who listen to verdict. And I want to say on behalf of all of them and on behalf of 31 million Texans, thank you for what you are doing. You are keeping my children safer. And Tom, I am grateful you are on that front line for us and you and President Trump are making a massive difference for the entire country.

[Jamie Rubin]

Well, I appreciate that, but I'm not gonna take credit. Please give the thanks for your listeners. You see a border agent, you see a nice agent?

[Ted Cruz]

Yes, yes.

[Jamie Rubin]

Just say thank you because I cannot believe the hate they're we knew they're gonna take hate as soon as President Trump got back in. But say thank you because these men and women, they're mothers and fathers too. They don't hang their heart on a hook at home when they go to work. They see a lot of terrible things. They put the life on the line. At 3 o' clock this morning when everybody is sleeping, me and Senator is sleeping. At 3am this morning, there's borderless standing on a dirt trail someplace going to take something on. They don't know if it's just an illegal alien or heavily armed drug smuggler. They're going to take it on. And the nearest back of us miles away. God bless the men and women of Bor Patrol, God best the women of ice and God bless this great nation. We're taking it.

[Ben Ferguson]

Amen.

[Ted Cruz]

Amen.

[Ben Ferguson]

Don't forget we do this show Monday, Wednesday and Friday. Hit that subscriber auto download button on those in between days. Grab my podcast, the Ben Ferguson Podcast. I'll keep you updated on the latest breaking news there as well. And the senator and I will see you back here on Friday morning.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I'm Christiana Manpour and I've been on the front lines and interviewing world leaders for more than 30.

[Jamie Rubin]

And I'm Jamie Rubin, a former advisor to both Presidents Clinton and Biden.

[Christiane Amanpour]

We were married for 20 years and divorced for seven. Now we've joined forces on the X Files to make sense of how we ended up with no world order. Listen to Christiane Amanpour presents the X files on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts.

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[Ben Ferguson]

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[Jamie Rubin]

You're listening to an I Heart podcast.