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- [00:00]
Ted Cruz
For the first time in probably 1700 years, Christians around the world will not be permitted to celebrate Easter in public. What is a country founded on religious liberty supposed to do when the government locks the churches? This is Verdict with Ted Cruz. Welcome back to Verdict with Ted Cruz. And happy Easter.
- [00:27]
Michael Knowles
I'm Michael.
- [00:28]
Ted Cruz
I'm Michael Knowles. Senator, sorry we can't be celebrating today together. We're at a safe social distance. I think I am not exaggerating here when I say this might be the first time since the Diocletian persecution that Christians have not been able to go to their churches on Easter. Is that an exaggeration?
- [00:48]
Michael Knowles
Well, you know, I gotta say, it is so commonplace to have podcasts talking about the Diocletian persecution. I mean. I mean, it really. I'm worried that we're gonna run into the traffic online with.
- [00:59]
Ted Cruz
That's true. The view spike through the roof. Right.
- [01:03]
Michael Knowles
You and I have never seen anything like this in our lifetimes. And it's, you know, all of us, we're doing everything from home. And whether that's church, whether that's work, whether that's time with the family, it has good aspects to it. And it also makes people pretty stir crazy.
- [01:21]
Ted Cruz
This, I think, is the big issue for people. I think for a while, people like taking a few days off work. Obviously, that got real old real fast when people lost their jobs. I think people actually, for the first few days of this shutdown, were kind of excited. It was something new. It was dangerous. Maybe we were all gonna band together again. That kind of got real old real fast. The one thing that I think was always a sticking point was the churches, the government closing down the churches. To my mind, that's unprecedented in the United States. Is that what you're hearing and seeing as well? I mean, is that just a different category?
- [01:55]
Michael Knowles
Look, it's a hard challenge because if you have, as we do, a pandemic, a public health outbreak, there is precedent for quarantining laws. There's precedent for preventing large gatherings. You know, I will say it. In this time of crisis, you know, people's real character comes out. Who they are comes out. And I gotta say, some of these Democratic politicians are just jackbooted thugs. I mean, they're authoritarians. They believe in the power of the state. So, you know, Bill de Blasio, mayor of New York, now listen, New York has got it worse than anywhere else in the country. It is horrific. The deaths that have happened there, the infections, people are scared. I get all of that. But de Blasio Said, listen, if any church or synagogue meets, we're gonna come after you, and we will permanently shut you down. Now, who the hell are you to permanently shut a church or synagogue down? And I actually understand saying, okay, you can't have a public gathering. You know what my church is doing? We're meeting virtually. Yeah, I think that actually makes good sense. But you see some of these political leaders just eager to strip away liberty, and they seem to have a real animosity to faith. That's right.
- [03:15]
Ted Cruz
If you look at New York, I mean, that's exactly the right example where it's not de Blasio saying, we're gonna shut you down for the whole of this pandemic. You are not gonna be allowed back into your building, pastor, until afterward. But that's not where they stopped it. They actually said, we will per. Shut you down. And he actually singled out churches and synagogues. He didn't go after any other faith groups. He just went after churches and synagogues. How convenient. It's not just de Blasio, though. It's going on around the country. And even for the people. I know a lot of conservatives, we want to keep our rights, but we're obviously willing to entertain some quarantine.
- [03:51]
Michael Knowles
In Pennsylvania, they arrested a woman for driving her car.
- [03:55]
Ted Cruz
Oh, my God.
- [03:56]
Michael Knowles
Driving your car. You're not violating social distancing. You're sitting in your own damn car. This is not a state, Right? Not yet. And you're seeing, you know, North Carolina, they invest. Arrested David Benham. David and Jason Benham. The Benham brothers are friends of mine. They're great guys. So the North Carolina governor, a Democrat, determined that elective abortions are essential. And so that abortion clinics could gather, they could all get together. And so the Benham brothers went outside and wanted to provide pregnancy counseling, wanted to peacefully tell moms that were coming in that were considering abortions. You know, there are alternatives if you wanna pursue adoption. Here are some of the resources available to you.
- [04:41]
Ted Cruz
Right.
- [04:41]
Michael Knowles
And they sent the police to arrest them. And actually, the video. I tweeted out the video. I'd encourage you watch that video because, you know, David is. He said, look, we're being peaceful. He's very calm. He's not angry. They're not harassing anyone. He said, we're six feet away. We're not gathering. We're not violating social distancing. But if the governor's gonna say that the abortion is essential, that the doctors and all the staff can gather there more than 10 people in public, then how can that be essential. But yet the counseling of pregnancy alternatives is not equally essential. And it's interesting. The officers are arresting him and you can see the officers are reluctant. And David, to his credit, he's praising the officers. He said, listen, thank you for your service, particularly now. I mean, he's polite, he's praising them. And it just shows. Look, and I don't want to make this partisan. And if there are Republicans doing it, I will happily call them out too. It just seems to be. It's the Democratic governors and the Democratic mayors that, that in that instance, you know, he's. He's hard pro abortion and hard and anti pro life.
- [05:55]
Ted Cruz
Yeah.
- [05:57]
Michael Knowles
And so it's not, if you wanna say neither of em are essential, fine, that I actually understand that determination. But you can't pick one side and silence those that would try to give alternatives.
- [06:08]
Ted Cruz
Well, it's so ironic. And it totally gives away the game where they say if you gather together to procure an abortion, that will not endanger life. And let me tell you something, abortion 100% of the time endangers life. They say, no, that won't endanger life. But if you go and offer some counseling, you also gather together, that will endanger life. It's so backwards. It's such a power. You know, certain states have made exceptions.
- [06:30]
Michael Knowles
You know, in Colorado, they arrested a dad for playing T ball with his kid. I mean, that's nutty. I spoke last night to a Nevada state legislator who was complaining the Nevada governor has shut down golf courses. Now, I gotta say, Michael, it's hard to think of a sport more situated to social distancing. Listen, if you're with it, if you're closer than six feet, you ain't doing it right. Like you ever. Like. I'm all for acting sensibly to protect the public safety, but there's some that are just eager to put on that jackboot and it's scary.
- [07:08]
Ted Cruz
Now, what do you make of these different states? I mean, some states, they've been arresting pastors if they try to hold services. Other states have made an exception for religious services, and it varies state by state. Luckily, we haven't had one national one size fits all policy for this. I mean, how is that gonna play out even after the pandemic's over?
- [07:27]
Michael Knowles
Listen, our law has always respected religious liberty. The First Amendment protects religious liberty. I think we should do everything possible to protect people's right of faith. At the same time, I think the responsible thing to do is to act to protect the community. So my church, Heidi and I are members of First Baptist Church in Houston. It's a big, big church. We've been going to church virtually online. Our pastor made the very, I think, very sensible decision to say we're not going to bring people together and have thousands of people in a sanctuary while there's a global pandemic going on. And, you know, I will say it's Easter. Easter, you know, Easter Sunday. For as long as I can remember, we would always go to church on Easter Sunday and celebrate the return of Jesus. But it's worth also remembering for those of us who are Christians. The church is not a building. The church is not bricks or mortar. So I'm sad not to be there. It's nice to be able to sing and have the music in person. It's nice to be able to worship together. But it actually has been beautiful. So what we do every Sunday morning is we come down, come down to the living room and we put the live stream of our church up on the tv. And Heidi and the girls and I, just the four of us in the living room, and we'll watch and participate, and we have to kind of drag the girls out of bed. And it's nice. I'll have a cup of coffee and I'll confess, I've done church sometimes in my slippers, which I don't normally do.
- [09:09]
Ted Cruz
Ditto. Same here. I'm ashamed to say, but I did.
- [09:12]
Michael Knowles
But it's interesting. Number one, I was talking to my pastor earlier this week. He said that, that the viewership has gone through the roof, that a ton of people are logging on and watching it online who wouldn't necessarily come in person. And it is interesting because we're ending up having much longer conversations with our girls about the sermon, about what's going on. If you're in church, you don't want to talk in church and bother people. If you're in your living room, you can talk to each other and you can say, hey, what do you think about what he just said? And you can have conversations that flow out of it that are. What the Bible said is the church is the body of believers, is everyone who is a Christian, that we're the church, not the building. And so even though Easter Sunday, most of us are not going to be in a physical church, if we are giving thanks for Jesus resurrection, then we're celebrating Easter and the church is celebrating. And I hope also listen, this is a time, you know, I remember back when Hurricane Harvey hit Texas, and it was devastating in Texas. It was second costliest natural disaster in U.S. history. And it was really amazing to see the churches all throughout Texas, especially on the Gulf coast, coming out and helping people. Helping people whose homes had been destroyed, who. Everything they had was lost. And it was a time when the church was doing what the church should. The church should be helping people, people in need, people who are scared. You know, our church, we've had one member, a woman in her 80s, who died of COVID 19. And, you know, the ministry for seniors, it's hard for seniors to be isolated. And this is a time I hope and I believe the church is doing more to help people who are scared, who are in need. Even if we don't gather in person, it's much more important for the church to reflect the love of Jesus than to stand in one particular building.
- [11:21]
Ted Cruz
Right. And I think there's something else going on here, too, with regard to the pandemic, which is people always think about Easter, but you forget that you don't get Easter without Good Friday. This is a reminder. This whole season of Lent, which, by the way, has corresponded exactly with the coronavirus pandemic. Lent being begins, and you get ashes on your head if you're a Catholic or certain other denominations. And they say, remember, man, you are dust. To dust, you shall return. And it's very easy in modern life to forget that someday, eventually, we're all gonna die. We might not die from the coronavirus, let's hope, but we will die eventually. And that reminder that, you know, I think it was Dr. Johnson said, hanging concentrates the mind. You know, when you look death straight in the face, it focuses you on the bigger questions. In a way, locking down the churches might have a pretty positive effect on religion in the country.
- [12:11]
Michael Knowles
It also brings families together, whether you like it or not. Look, Caroline said, you know, I can't stand it. I've been in this house for a month. And I mean. And she's 11. And I'm like, sweetheart, I know we all have. We're, like, ready to jump out the windows. But there have also been so every day, Heidi and I, we've had lunch with the girls, We've had dinner with the girls. That's never happened. And the whole time, we've been a family we've never had. And I'll tell you one thing. So we've started doing a couple of things. One, we go for walks every evening. Sometimes family walks. We walk the dog. Sometimes it's just Heidi and me, but the whole neighborhood is out walking, and it's like central Houston now. We're Six feet apart. We stay at a distance, but it's like central Houston became Mayberry. I mean, it's an amazing thing. But something else we've started doing that I wanted to do for a long time, is every night we're reading from the Bible. And listen, I've wanted to do that regularly. And we've done it sometimes. We've done it sporadically, but not with real discipline. And part of it is being in the Senate. Typically, I get up Monday mornings, I fly to D.C. and I'm gone for four days. I come back Thursday night. It's hard as a dad if you're in town two, three days a week. It's hard to sort of have a family discipline of. After dinner, we sit down and read the Bible. And I've been, like, guilty and thinking about it. We need to do more of it. And so with all this time at home, Heidi and I decided, all right, we're gonna do this. And our girls didn't like it. I mean, it was a big battle. This was not mild or easy. And so we started with just Matthew, chapter one and reading three chapters a night. I think the first night, it took us, I don't know, hour, hour and a half to get through three chapters. The girls were acting up. It was a bit of a mess. But it's interesting. We've gotten through. I think we're at, like, Matthew chapter 24, so we haven't done it that long. But it's been each night, and it has been really. And what's interesting is it just so happens we're right now moving into Good Friday and Easter. Just the timing worked out. We didn't sit down and plan it like this. But, you know, last Sunday was Palm Sunday. And we were reading in Matthew where it talks about Palm Sunday and Jesus riding into Jerusalem on the back of a donkey. And by the way, my pastor says something very interesting that I didn't know. I don't know if you knew. Did you know that Palm Sunday, the Sunday before Easter, was the day traditionally in Judaism when they selected the lamb to be sacrificed?
- [14:58]
Ted Cruz
I did not know that.
- [14:59]
Michael Knowles
I had never heard that. Our pastor said that this last Sunday. And I thought that was fascinating because a lot of what we've been talking about with the girls was the parallel with Passover and the entire story of Passover, which we kind of take digressions as we're reading the Bible to say, okay, the people of Israel were in captivity in Egypt and the 10 plagues. And so Catherine sang a song on the 10 plagues that struck Egypt. But we were talking about that for the angel of death to pass over your home, that you had to put the lamb's blood on the side of the door on the top. And that is what Easter is all about, is that Jesus was the lamb sacrificed for us. And the Passover lamb, Jesus was that same sacrifice. And that story, having the opportunity to talk about it at this time, where Easter's at home, it has made it, I think, in many ways more meaningful than being in a big service with controversy.
- [16:08]
Ted Cruz
This is something that my wife and I have been doing too, in our little one bedroom apartment. I think probably my greatest risk of death right now is not any pandemic. It's gonna be mur when my wife finally snaps. But if that doesn't happen in the meantime, what we've been doing especially, cause we're Catholics, so we have certain icons and religious images around. And when we go to church now, the church is at the kitchen table and we live stream it in from our priest who's down in Southern California, and it's just him on a live stream. And it really focuses you on these images. So then it's just my wife and I sitting in kitchen chairs. You know, there's no smells and bells, there's no beautiful music going on. It's really just us contemplating some of these images, listening to these words, listening to these prayers. And it does remind you when Jesus says, when you pray, go into your innermost closet, do it in solitude and really make it about that connection to God. And it just gives you another sense when you go and pray the rosary at night and it's just the two of you and everybody's quiet, no one's outside. In a way, it really amplifies your prayer and your spiritual connection to God, even when you can't go into your own church.
- [17:20]
Michael Knowles
Well, and I'll say this, this also cuts across faith. So some good friends of ours who are neighbors who are Jewish, and they celebrated this week their Passover Seder, which ordinarily they would do with the whole extended family. And they were telling me, okay, so we're just doing it with mom and dad, and they have a daughter who's really close friends with Caroline, and they have a son who's a little bit younger. And they said what they're doing is just, they're FaceTiming on, I think, iPads with their extended family. So with parents and sisters, you know, they're not, you know, most of us are not seeing our parents. My dad's 81. My mom's 85. I hadn't seen either one of them in over a month. Cause I'm not gonna jeopardize their health. But it is interesting. Even a Passover Seder. You know, I've been to a lot, lot of Seders and they're wonderful and fun, but you think of them as, you know, big groups of multi generational extended family. And with technology, you can even do that. If it's just a few of you and you're trying to socially distance, you can still have a wonderful faith and family experience together. And I suspect we'll look back at these. It wouldn't surprise me if when our girls are grown, they look back to this time of spending day after day and week after week together as a family, as some of their favorite time ever. Now, they wouldn't admit that now.
- [18:46]
Ted Cruz
Right?
- [18:47]
Michael Knowles
Who would? But it is, you know, Caroline is in our front yard right now building a little bit of a tree house in a tree and, you know, coming and pulling me out of. I'm on conference calls with work and doing all just. I'm in the middle of what basically a teletour across Texas, like meeting, talking with all different communities. But like Caroline comes yesterday and says, you know, dad, we need your help to cut the lumber. I'm not very handy. But thankfully I have told her, okay, no power tools. As an 11 year old, I don't want severed digits. So I got the jigsaw and managed to cut the board without in fact severing any of my digits. So that was good. It's a positive. But it's kind of right in the middle of the day. It's like, come to the garage and let's cut lumber to build the treehouse.
- [19:35]
Ted Cruz
There's something really nice about that. And I've noticed the same thing as you mentioned with your friends in the Passover Seder. People, family members, old friends that I have not called in a long time. Now we're just doing calls because that's what people are doing. And speaking of connecting with people virtually, I know we've only got a few minutes left, but I do want to get to some of the mailbag because we've got some very important questions here. This is the most important one that I've read in weeks. Senator, this is from Amber. Does Ted think Joe exotic should be pardoned? I'm serious. I want his opinion. Michael can answer too. Senator, what's your answer?
- [20:11]
Michael Knowles
Well, I will say I cracked up laughing that this week at the White House press Conference. They asked if Joe Exotic should be pardoned. And President Trump, I'm not sure he knew what was going on, but said, yeah, yeah, we'll have to look at that. And that was. That was pretty darn funny. You know, I've got a pet theory.
- [20:30]
Ted Cruz
Yeah.
- [20:30]
Michael Knowles
That the prospect of Joe Exotic being pardoned is why Obama delayed endorsing Joe Biden. Because, you know, look, apparently Joe Exotic ran for President in 2016 against. Against me. I didn't know it at the time. Against Trump. So who knows? Maybe Joe Exotic's on the ballot in 2020 and Obama's holding the endorsement back. Waiting for the tiger King endorsed.
- [20:55]
Ted Cruz
This is the most brilliant political insight I have seen in so long. I am now. I don't know my feelings on Joe Exotic getting a pardon other than I endorse Barack Obama endorsing Joe Exotic. So I guess that means we gotta spring him from the slammer. Very good point, Senator. Next question from Peter. Is there any evidence that China purposely delayed and lied in their report in order to tank the world economy, considering that theirs was already in shambles?
- [21:24]
Michael Knowles
So that's an interesting question. There is absolutely evidence that China purposely delayed and that they covered up, that when the Wuhan outbreak was ongoing, that they hid evidence of it, that they punished the scientists who were trying to blow the whistle, including the doctor who courageously did it anyway and has since died of COVID 19. You know, I'm not aware of any evidence that they did it with the intent of tanking the global economy. I think that's probably a stretch. Although when it comes to ascribing malign intentions to the Chinese Communist, you almost can't stretch too much.
- [22:04]
Ted Cruz
There's no limit.
- [22:05]
Michael Knowles
But, you know, I had an old boss who was a federal judge who used to say, never attribute to malice what you can attribute to incompetence. And listen, I think the Chinese covered it up because they were embarrassed because they didn't want people to know. I think there's a very real possibility that this outbreak occurred from some sort of accidental transmission. There were two facilities within miles of the Wuhan wet market, where we think this started, that were studying coronaviruses in bats. And I haven't seen any evidence that this was. Look, there's some Internet theories that this was manufactured and is like bioterrorism. You know, look, I'm skeptical that the Chinese government would release a virus on their own people. We've seen tyrannical governments torture and murder their people. But. But doing it deliberately, I've seen no Evidence of that. What strikes me as entirely plausible is that it was a screw up from one of the labs that. That. That may have been studying this virus. As I said, we know they were studying coronaviruses from bats. And then the whole cover up was to hide their embarrassment, to hide their. And the reason that matters is if they hadn't covered it up, we could have gone in, we could have contained this outbreak maybe, and found the people who were infected and isolated them and dug the contact tracing and potentially stopped this outbreak from becoming an epidemic and then a pandemic. That if you stop it at the origin, it is entirely possible that the deaths worldwide and the trillions of dollars of economic destruction could have been covered up if the Chinese had. It could have been stopped if the Chinese hadn't engaged in this cover up.
- [23:57]
Ted Cruz
All right, final question. This is maybe the most important one of all. What are you eating on Easter? And who is doing the cooking?
- [24:04]
Michael Knowles
You know, it's funny. I don't know. So yesterday, Heidi and I were taking our walk, and Heidi was like, all right, what do we want to do for Easter? And I'm like, well, what do you mean, what do you want to do for Easter? And she's like, well, no, we need to, like, do something for Easter. I'm like, did your family do, like, big Easter things? And like, I gotta admit, my family, like, we would go to church and then we'd just come home and hang out as a family. It was a Sunday. I mean, we didn't. Like, it wasn't put on the suit.
- [24:29]
Ted Cruz
And tie and formal.
- [24:32]
Michael Knowles
It was. I mean, it was not. And we had this big discussion because Heidi kept asking me, no, no, what do we want to do? And I'm like, what do you mean, do? Like, same thing we do. And she's like, all right, how about an Easter egg hunt? I'm like, okay, we've done those for our girls. And I think Catherine, who's nine, she's more into it than. Caroline is probably a little too cool for an Easter egg hunt, but I'm like, sure, if you want to get some plastic eggs and put candy or money in them, put it in the backyard. We can do that. But. So I don't know what we're gonna eat. That's the short answer. We'll probably. Heidi and I are terrible cooks.
- [25:04]
Ted Cruz
Yeah.
- [25:05]
Michael Knowles
Although Caroline has begun cooking at home. So we haven't figured it out is the short answer. I think we'll do a nicer. Nicer meal than just cold pizza.
- [25:14]
Ted Cruz
Right?
- [25:16]
Michael Knowles
But. But I I don't know what it'll be. And. And maybe we'll order out. It's literally. Heidi is pressing me, saying we need to have a big sort of Easter meal. You know, most Easters, I would have done, like, gone to church and then, like, gone and taken my mom out to dinner or something and done, like, a brunch at a restaurant. So we're obviously not gonna do that.
- [25:36]
Ted Cruz
You could always have the mimosas, but you gotta do it at home. You know, it's funny because I think what most people are gonna do is more like what you did growing up, which is it'll be the first Easter in the pajamas. And frankly, that doesn't sound so bad. Nice time to spend with family, obviously. Senator, happy Easter to you and happy Easter to everybody else who is listening. I'm Michael Knowles. This is Verdict with Ted Cruz.
- [26:05]
Michael Knowles
This episode of Verdict with Ted Cruz is being brought to you by Jobs, Freedom, and Security pac, a political action committee dedicated to supporting conservative causes, organizations, and candidates across the country. In 2022, jobs, freedom and Security PAC plans to donate to conservative candidates running for Congress and help the Republican Party across the nation.