← The 47 Morning Update with Ben Ferguson
The 47 Morning Update with Ben Ferguson
In the Trenches for School Choice ft. Education Secretary Betsy DeVos
00:25:12
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- [00:00]
Ted Cruz
One week ago, the Senate voted on the most significant school choice legislation in our nation's history. And joining us to discuss it are the two authors of that legislation, Education Secretary Betsy DeVos and the host of this show. This is Verdict with Ted Cruz. I think I should point out I was not one of the authors of that legislation. That would be the. The actual host of the show. Senator Ted Cruz. And Madam Secretary, thank you so much for being here.
- [00:31]
Betsy DeVos
It's a pleasure.
- [00:32]
Michael Knowles
Well, it is great to have Betsy join us. You know, Betsy and I have been friends now, I think, what, two decades at least. Yes. And I gotta say, Betsy is extraordinary. She was a nationally renowned business leader and she's been an education leader for a long, long time. She has been fighting for school choice in the trenches, fighting to make a difference for kids in the inner cities, kids that are struggling to give them a chance.
- [01:09]
Betsy DeVos
Well, thanks, Ted. It's a pleasure to join you and to have a chance to talk about my passion.
- [01:13]
Ted Cruz
You know, I've noticed something about this issue. It seems so clear cut. There seem to be so many advantages to school choice. Madam Secretary, you seem like a very nice, lovely person, and yet this issue, and you in particular, have elicited the ire of the opponents of school choice. Why is this issue one that seems to drive these opponents crazy?
- [01:36]
Betsy DeVos
Well, there are a lot of defenders of what currently is the status quo. A lot of adult interests at stake and a lot of power and financial resources at stake. But what's at stake that's even more important than that is the future of kids in this country. And for over three decades, I have been advocating for, especially kids from the most vulnerable backgrounds and families to have the same kind of opportunities that my children have had my grandchildren. And it is a justice issue, in my view, and one that is becoming increasingly in the sights of more and more parents as we've tried to get kids back in school this fall.
- [02:24]
Ted Cruz
Well, when I hear about the education issue, it's funny because we don't talk about it quite as much. And yet this issue that people kind of consider to the side is really the future of the country. Right. You're talking about how you raise up an entire generation of Americans.
- [02:39]
Michael Knowles
Well, and I think that really has been driven home right now during the time of COVID when you've got schools shut down all over the country. What's happening as a practical matter right now is I think with an awful lot of kids, they're not getting an education.
- [02:52]
Ted Cruz
Yeah, yeah. And this was a problem, I suppose, even before the lockdowns, shut down schools. It's a broader problem, obviously exacerbated now. So I'd like to just get into a little bit of what we mean when we talk about school choice and specifically what is in this legislation that you've written.
- [03:08]
Betsy DeVos
Well, I like to use the picture of a backpack, because most kids go to school with some kind of a backpack. So let's picture that child with the financial resources that go to support that child's education, which now go to a system or a building, but in that backpack for that child and their family to take to whatever school or whatever learning environment is gonna work for them, whether that's homeschooling or now with the pods that are forming or micro schools or using it for a virtual school. For some kids, learning at a distance has worked well. It's a small percentage of them, probably, but for some, that's the right thing for the future. Well, all families should have those resources following their child or their children to the right environment for them.
- [03:59]
Ted Cruz
And this includes a topic we've heard a lot about, charter schools. And I have to tell you, not only are there these activists who are opposing it, but it goes all the way up to the Democratic nominee for president, Joe Biden, who came out and said that he not only opposes school choice, not only opposes charter schools, but he explicitly, Madam Secretary, opposes you.
- [04:21]
Betsy DeVos
So I have one more question.
- [04:22]
Michael Knowles
Sure.
- [04:23]
Betsy DeVos
There are lots of people who think there are other ways to solve all of these problems. And NEA members have pushed back against what we think are very misguided school reforms like charter schools. Regularly now, we've seen families and communities who will join us in fighting to save that neighborhood public school. You know how we feel about charter schools. We'd like to know how you feel about charter schools.
- [04:52]
Michael Knowles
I will not.
- [04:53]
Ted Cruz
There will not be no federal dollars.
- [04:55]
Michael Knowles
I'm not Betsy DeVos, nor will my.
- [04:57]
Ted Cruz
My Secretary of education be anything like her in terms of her attitudes about public schools. No privately funded charter school would receive or private charter school would receive a.
- [05:10]
Michael Knowles
Penny of federal money.
- [05:11]
Ted Cruz
None.
- [05:12]
Betsy DeVos
It's really unfortunate that former Vice President Biden forgets the fact that in 1997, he gave an impassioned speech in favor of school choice on the Senate floor. And so he has turned against and turned his back on the kids that he supported and those families he supported then in favor of the teachers union bosses and those special interests that are blocking kids from seeking the best education for them.
- [05:41]
Michael Knowles
You know that clip you just played, it highlights a couple of things. One Biden's being interviewed by the head of the biggest teacher's union in the country. But two, he tells her he's willing to do anything they want. And in particular, he pledges to do everything he can to cut off the funds for charter schools. It's interesting. You see Biden slamming charter schools. Charter schools actually are public schools. I mean, part of what Biden says there is incoherent, as it sometimes is, in that he says privately funded charter schools. Charter schools are public schools that are publicly funded, and they've had great records of success. Some of the leading charter schools in the country, like KIPP and Yes, Prep, started in Texas and have had incredible results.
- [06:35]
Ted Cruz
People are seeing this now, obviously, acutely, when it comes to the coronavirus lockdowns. But you've been talking about this for a long time, and I know, Madam Secretary, you have been working on this, it seems like forever. I mean, you have put a lot of your energy and your career into this. Why? What did you see? How did you see this issue coming before so many others did?
- [06:55]
Betsy DeVos
Well, it started when my oldest son, who's now 38, was starting kindergarten, and I began to volunteer at a small Christian school in the heart of our city. And I saw for every family that had children there, there were 10 or 20 other families that wanted to have their kids there, but they have to raise 90% of the operating funds from benefactors in the community. And these families were so grateful to have kids in this little school. And I began seeing it as the justice issue that it is and started advocating for policy change. Thought that through persuasion or logic that we could help change people's minds, but soon recognized that the policy change has to go with political pressure. And so that was the impetus and that was the progression for me to get involved. And that involvement has taken shape in many states around the country that today have school choice programs for families. And now to have this opportunity at the federal level to advance this notion. And now, at a time we were just starting to talk about the fact that right now there are many parents who are. Are in places that they chose to have their children, but the schools are not responding. They're not answering what the family's needs are today. And so I think the receptivity to school choice and the notion of school choice is increasing dramatically on a daily basis, almost.
- [08:28]
Michael Knowles
So I've worked very closely on school choice legislation with Betsy, and we'll talk about what the Senate just voted on, but I've done numerous events with her at the Department of Education at the White House. And some of the most powerful things that she's done is that she brings in actual students. She brings in often high school kids that are typically African American or Hispanic. They're invariably low income, and they just tell their stories. They tell their stories about really being in rough, challenging environments and what it meant for them when they got a scholarship, when they went to a charter school, when they were given a lifeline where otherwise they were gonna drown. And I have to say, Betsy and I both participated in a roundtable at the White House with the president on this. And a number of these students. And the press wouldn't cover the students. Give me a 15 year old black kid who is desperately saying, please give me an education. Thank you, Secretary DeVos, for fighting for my education. And the 6:00 news will air it. I mean, it is like the oxygen sucked out of the room. They don't want you to hear these stories.
- [09:47]
Betsy DeVos
You're absolutely right, Ted. All you need to do is listen to the stories of a couple of these kids who've had the opportunity. I think about Denisha Meriwether, whom I've known now for quite a few years. She grew up in the Jacksonville, Florida area. She failed third grade twice and was on the verge of getting kicked out of school. And her godmother said, we gotta do something different here. So she found a Florida school choice scholarship, got her into a different school. And Denisha will tell you today, within 10 days of being in that school, she said her life was on an entirely different trajectory. She graduated high school, the first in her family to graduate high school. She went on, graduated college, and now has earned a master's degree and is now actually promoting this opportunity for kids everywhere. But you think about the life change that happened because she had that opportunity through that scholarship in the third grade, too. In the third grade.
- [10:52]
Ted Cruz
You know, it's not in college in.
- [10:53]
Betsy DeVos
The third grade so early. Yeah. And she just, you know, she's one of hundreds of thousands of kids who, who've had scholarships funded by private benefactors in places where they don't have school choice. But I think about. You talked about the charter schools and the demand for charters. There are over a million families on wait lists for charter schools around the country, and yet we have the teachers union combating even charter schools, publicly funded public schools, simply because they're organized differently.
- [11:30]
Ted Cruz
As you say, Senator, we talk about this term social justice. We throw it around you. You do wonder about regular old justice, you know, the old term of giving people what they deserve and treating people fairly. And this is at the heart of this issue. And Madam Secretary, I would like to turn from school choice and lower education up to higher education, because I know you have focused on a justice issue there as well, and that's the issue of Title ix. And for those, it's a bit of a complex issue, but it seems to me from the outside that there are campus tribunals that have been trying students for crimes outside of the criminal justice system with no respect, basically, for due process. And very few people had taken it up until you took over your job.
- [12:17]
Betsy DeVos
Well, I remember when Title IX went into the law, went into effect, and of course, it was originally to ensure that young women had equal access to sporting opportunities. And so when I came into this job and realized very quickly what a serious overreach the Obama administration had made into this issue by issuing their Dear Colleague letter, which essentially told campuses and institutions how to handle matters of sexual misconduct on campus, but dramatically restricted and took away what we would consider fundamental rights, due process rights, and the presumption of innocence. And in the process, countless students were getting hurt on both sides of the issue. So we went, as you know, we went through the formal process, the formal rulemaking process to put clarity to this and to restore balance and fairness and to give all students the comfort and the knowledge that if they are ever in such a situation, they have a process to rely on that is going to be just and fair for everyone.
- [13:31]
Michael Knowles
So let me one thing you mentioned that I want to pause and reflect on. All of us were taught growing up that the way something becomes a law is it passes the House, it passes the Senate, it's signed by the president, and then you have legislation. But what you just mentioned there is that that was not, in fact, what the Obama administration did. They did a Dear Colleague letter. What do you mean by that? Like, how did they do this?
- [13:55]
Betsy DeVos
So they issued a letter to education institutions saying, this is how you must handle these matters on your campuses and completely circumvented the proper process as established by Congress and basically did as they did in many other areas, which was simply decree their political agenda by writing a Dear Colleague letter and signing it. And so I rescinded it very soon after taking office and began the process of going through the whole Administrative Procedures act, which now carries the force of law. But importantly, it puts a framework around these issues that is fair and reliable for everyone involved.
- [14:47]
Michael Knowles
So in the hyper partisan world we live in, the Twitter world has characterized the Department of Education rules as essentially condoning sexual assault, saying that we're not going to punish sexual assault on college campuses. Now that's not the case.
- [15:03]
Betsy DeVos
Not at all. Not at all. What it does is actually give survivors complete control over what happens. And it ensures that schools, if they report some incident or misconduct, that schools have to immediately provide supportive measures, whether that be changing dorm rooms or class schedules or issuing a no contact order. And then that individual, that complainant, is the one who's in charge of what happens next, whether they want to file a formal complaint or not, whether they want to proceed with other additional formal action or not. But the process is very clearly articulated. Putting that individual in charge of what happens and ensuring that they can continue to act according to Title ix, that they can continue to access their education in an equal manner.
- [15:59]
Michael Knowles
Well, and in the American justice system, due process is a regular feature. It's a constitutionally mandated feature of criminal trials. So that if Michael goes out and kills someone on the street, which by the way, he does often, just be aware of that.
- [16:17]
Ted Cruz
You can't say this sort of.
- [16:20]
Michael Knowles
Even if he's a murderer, if he gets arrested and prosecuted, he's entitled to due process, which means he'll have a lawyer appointed, he'll be able to cross examine witnesses. So if you and I walk upstairs and see him commit the crime and we go on the stand and say it was him, that was that Knowles guy, I tell you, I saw him, it was that same light blue suit.
- [16:42]
Ted Cruz
That guy was rooting for the Lakers, I think.
- [16:44]
Michael Knowles
But, but he, he has the right to cross examine the witnesses. He has the right to see the evidence against him and to contest the charges. All of that's true if you're charged with murder. But yet because of the Obama administration, for a 18, 19 year old kid facing an allegation on campus, in a lot of instances they weren't given the basic due process any other American would.
- [17:10]
Betsy DeVos
Be given and hundreds of cases that were ultimately overturned in the courts because they didn't handle it appropriately and they didn't afford due process to the individual.
- [17:20]
Ted Cruz
Because I see the question you're raising, Senator, which is, you know, this issue has been so demagogued. But I think it just comes back to that point you raised, which I think we should keep coming back to. It's a matter of justice. These professor and administrative tribunals obviously are ill equipped to deal with a crime. The survivors and the accusers are entitled to their legal protections, which are now being thrown out the window. And of course the accused are entitled to due process. In our system that being thrown out of the window, too.
- [17:48]
Michael Knowles
And by the way, Michael, you want to talk about rampant hypocrisy? Joe Biden has been accused of sexual assault.
- [17:56]
Ted Cruz
Right.
- [17:57]
Michael Knowles
If Joe Biden were operating under the Obama Biden campus rules, he'd have been expelled, thrown out of the. I guess thrown out of the presidential race. Is that the equivalent?
- [18:06]
Ted Cruz
No, no.
- [18:07]
Michael Knowles
Can you run when you're in college? Now, he disputes the claim. Yeah, he disputes the claims, but there is an allegation, a serious allegation of an alleged victim who's come forward and charged him with forcible sexual assault. I don't know if he did it or not. And I actually believe. Look, I think there are aspects of the MeToo movement that are very positive and confronting and punishing sexual assault and sexual violence is very important. But it doesn't mean every allegation is true and people are entitled to defend themselves. But the hypocrisy is Biden wouldn't survive his own standard.
- [18:44]
Betsy DeVos
That's right.
- [18:45]
Michael Knowles
You have to assume if Joe Biden wins that he promised he won't have an education secretary like Betsy DeVos. I fully expect them to try to reverse the rules protecting due process that the Department of Education has put in and to try to return to the star chamber. If there's an accusation, the student's life is destroyed regardless of the evidence, not to mention school choice. And as we've talked about this podcast, as you know, I've got a new book coming out October 6th called One Vote Away about the Supreme Court. There's an entire chapter in the book on school choice. And I talk about. There's a landmark case at the Supreme Court called Zellman versus Simmons Harris, where it was a challenge to the Ohio school choice program and the court upheld it. 5, 4. We are one vote away. One radical leftist that Joe Biden would happily appoint would vote to strike down every school choice program in America. I mean, it is. That's something you talk about, something in the election that people don't realize is on the ballot. It's part of the reason I wrote this book, to focus on all of the different constitutional rights that are hanging in the ballot. The Senate just voted on a targeted emergency relief package directed at Covid and the economic disaster on the education side. It took a long time for the Republicans to unite. And in particular, I held out my vote and I said, I'm not going to support it unless you include school choice provisions. And the school choice provisions that I authored and introduced with Betsy at the Department of Education. And what the provision is, it is $5 billion a year in federal tax credits for individuals or companies that make contributions to scholarship granting organizations. And it's dollar for dollar tax credits so that if you write a check to a scholarship granting organization in your home state, you get a credit on your taxes. What that means is that's $5 billion of new funds that go to scholarships for K12 education that the states implements the state's design so they can vary depending on the needs in each state. But you look at all the kids right now who are trapped at home, whose schools aren't meeting, they aren't teaching, they aren't learning. That's an immediate infusion of $5 billion a year of scholarship for those kids to get. And by the way, it also includes kids with disabilities that need special treatment, special therapies. A lot of kids with disabilities are getting completely left behind right now. It was the most far reaching school choice provision ever voted on. Much of the Senate Republican conference fought me. Betsy and I were talking repeatedly on the phone over and over again throughout this. Senator Mike Lee joined me. And so Mike and I both, we told the conference, said it's real simple. If you include the school choice provisions, we'll vote yes. If you don't include them, we'll vote no. And so they couldn't get to 50 without us. And it was, I mean, you want to talk about a battle? And we had some conference calls where my colleagues in the Republican conference were yelling at me, were screaming, were opposed. We're saying they're absolutely not gonna do it. But we made very clear, we talked in another podcast about Israel and the importance of lack of ambiguity. We made very clear if you want our votes, include the bill. The end of the day, Republican leadership included the bill and we united the Republican conference. We got 52 out of 53 Republicans. The only Republican who voted no was Rand Paul and he was against all of it. He just voted against the whole thing.
- [22:27]
Ted Cruz
Right.
- [22:27]
Michael Knowles
Other than Rand, we got every single Republican united and voting in favor of the most far reaching school choice provision ever. That is a big, big deal and it's a major victory and bets. And I worked hand in hand to make that happen.
- [22:42]
Betsy DeVos
Yes. And Ted, you, kudos to you and to Mike for really standing firm on that. And I think actually if you were to query most of your colleagues, they would say they realize more today why that is important. And I expect that going forward there's going to be much broader support because they're seeing Today, the families that need it and want it and they can't deny it any longer.
- [23:10]
Ted Cruz
And before I let you go, I know we only have a couple minutes left, but I would be remiss if I didn't ask. I know there are a lot of families that are wondering right now when the schools are going to reopen. On the point of clarity, we know that a lot of teacher unions have been opposed to the reopening. So what is that battle looking like and what is that timeline looking like?
- [23:29]
Betsy DeVos
Well, every district makes that decision themselves in concert perhaps with their state leadership. But the president and I have been very, very explicit about the fact that families need to have the option of kids going to school in person.
- [23:44]
Ted Cruz
Yeah.
- [23:45]
Betsy DeVos
The ones who are being hurt the most are the ones who need to be there in person the most. And so we will continue to beat that drum. And I urge and encourage parents across the country to raise their voices. They're being denied hearing in all too many places. I think right here of Fairfax county, right outside of Washington, where they were going to offer two days a week in person. Now it's zero days a week in person. And I understand on the first day the whole system crashed. Well, those aren't choices. That's not supporting your constituency at all. And there's no excuse for it.
- [24:23]
Ted Cruz
Right. Well, it sounds like you've got your work cut out for you. But thank you, Madam Secretary, for all that you do. Thank you for explaining this issue, both of you. And by the way, congratulations on this vote in the Senate. We hope, of course, to see much more of it. Madam Secretary, Senator, I'm Michael Knowles. This is VERDICT WITH Ted Cruz.
- [24:41]
Betsy DeVos
Foreign.
- [24:50]
Michael Knowles
This episode of Verdict with Ted Cruz is being brought to you by Jobs, Freedom and Security pac, a political action committee dedicated to supporting conservative causes, organizations and candidates across the country. In 2022, jobs, freedom and Security PAC plans to donate to conservative candidates running for Congress and help the Republican Party across the nation.