Is a Hotdog a Sandwich? ft. Senator Mike Lee

Summary

Podcast Summary: The 47 Morning Update with Ben Ferguson Episode: Is a Hotdog a Sandwich? ft. Senator Mike Lee Release Date: June 23, 2020

In this engaging episode of The 47 Morning Update with Ben Ferguson, host Ben Ferguson delves into a multifaceted discussion with Senator Mike Lee and guest Senator Ted Cruz. The conversation traverses the intricacies of Senate procedures, the state of the judiciary, personal anecdotes from the senators' backgrounds, contemporary legal issues, and concludes with the lighthearted question: "Is a hotdog a sandwich?"

1. Senate Procedures and the Need for Amendments

Discussion on Senate Lunch Dynamics: The episode opens with a candid conversation about the informal but crucial Senate lunches where Republican senators gather to discuss legislative strategies. Senator Cruz highlights the importance of allowing each senator to introduce amendments and engage in unlimited debate, emphasizing that the current restrictive practices undermine the Senate's foundational role.

• Senator Ted Cruz [01:18]: "When we bring up a piece of legislation... every member is supposed to have access to unlimited debate and unlimited opportunities to introduce amendments."

Critique of Current Legislative Practices: Senator Mike Lee critiques the elimination of the amendment process by both Democratic leader Harry Reid and Republican leader Mitch McConnell, arguing that it leads to a binary voting system that doesn't reflect the diverse opinions of constituents.

• Senator Mike Lee [02:50]: "The way the Senate was formed is such that every member is supposed to have access to unlimited debate and unlimited opportunities to introduce amendments. It hasn't been working like that lately."

2. Personal Relationships and Backgrounds

Forming Alliances in the Senate: The conversation shifts to the personal relationship between Senators Cruz and Lee, highlighting their shared backgrounds as Supreme Court clerks and their alignment on constitutional conservatism.

• Senator Ted Cruz [06:37]: "We went on a walk around the Capitol grounds, talking about every conceivable legal, political, and constitutional issue for the next two hours."

Family Histories and Personal Anecdotes: Senator Cruz shares personal stories about his family's history, including a tragic account of his grandfather's murder and the wrongful execution of his great-great-grandfather, John D. Lee.

• Senator Ted Cruz [13:44]: "John D. Lee was a Mormon pioneer... he was blamed for the sins of a couple of other people."

Senator Lee adds his own anecdote about having boots made by a convicted murderer during his time in Texas.

• Senator Mike Lee [15:29]: "I have had boots made by a murderer... Darby was Simon, probably early 60s, skinny little guy, but who had committed two murders."

3. Judicial Activism and the Supreme Court

Critique of the Supreme Court's Evolution: The senators critique the shift towards judicial activism in the Supreme Court, pointing out key decisions that have altered the balance of power between federal and state governments.

• Senator Ted Cruz [17:32]: "The Supreme Court decided a case called NLRB v. Jones and Laughlin Steel Company... it eroded federalism by giving more power to Washington D.C."

Historical Appointments and Their Impact: Senator Lee discusses the appointment of justices who align with Democratic ideologies, despite being nominated by Republican presidents, thereby weakening conservative influence on the Court.

• Senator Mike Lee [20:39]: "John Paul Stevens... Gerald Ford put John Paul Stevens on board... Republicans bat .500."

4. Contemporary Legal Issues: Uber Eats' Discriminatory Policy

Analysis of Uber Eats' Fee Waiver: The discussion turns to a contemporary issue where Uber Eats announced waiving delivery fees for black-owned businesses while maintaining fees for others. Both senators vehemently condemn the policy as discriminatory and illegal under federal civil rights law.

• Senator Mike Lee [23:54]: "I think it's plainly illegal... they cannot discriminate under federal civil rights law."
• Senator Ted Cruz [25:27]: "Do you want to live in a country where that happens, where that's lawful? I don't think so."

5. Philosophical Debate: Is a Hotdog a Sandwich?

Lighthearted Conclusion: In a playful end to the episode, the senators tackle the age-old question: "Is a hotdog a sandwich?" Senator Lee expresses indifference, emphasizing his focus on more pressing issues, while Senator Cruz firmly categorizes a hotdog as its own distinct entity.

• Senator Mike Lee [25:49]: "I just don't give a damn. I really do care about hot dogs, but whether it's a sandwich or not, I just don't care."
• Senator Ted Cruz [26:49]: "It's its own genre. It's its own species. So to call it a sandwich doesn't give it the dignity that it deserves."

Conclusion

This episode of The 47 Morning Update offers listeners a deep dive into the Senators' perspectives on legislative processes, judicial overreach, personal histories that shape their political views, and contemporary legal challenges. The engaging dialogue is punctuated with notable quotes and personal anecdotes, providing a comprehensive understanding of the issues discussed.

Notable Quotes:

• Senator Ted Cruz [04:38]: "That's not right. That's not how the Senate was created."
• Senator Mike Lee [05:15]: "The Senate is supposed to be the greatest deliberative body in the world."
• Senator Mike Lee [20:39]: "Republicans, at best, bat .500."

This structured and insightful conversation is invaluable for listeners seeking to grasp the complexities of American legislative and judicial systems, the importance of procedural integrity, and the personal motivations driving these influential senators.

Transcript

[Michael Knowles]

As our country continues to roil from all the turmoil, we are joined today by people who can explain everything from the basic questions, the US Constitution, all the way up to the policies that are being crafted right this very minute. And because they don't invite me to their lunch where they actually talk about these things, we'll bring them here into the podcast studio and get into all of it. This is Verdict with Ted Cruz. Welcome back to welcome to Verdict with Ted Cruz. I'm Michael Knowles, not just joined by our usual senator, but by a second senator as well. Senator Mike Lee. Gentlemen, I am not going to tell you how deeply offended I am that I was not invited to your Senate lunch. But because we're all here together, perhaps you can fill me in on what's been happening.

[Ted Cruz]

First of all, we'd love to have you at our lunch, just get elected to the Senate. We'll welcome you with open arm.

[Michael Knowles]

Just that small issue first. Okay.

[Mike Lee]

All right. You'd fit in well, and you're a Californian. I'm sure Dianne Feinstein is looking over her shoulder.

[Michael Knowles]

Terrifying.

[Mike Lee]

Sees you approaching rapids.

[Michael Knowles]

I appreciate the support, Senator, and I'm sure it's just a matter of a few days.

[Ted Cruz]

Californians have been looking and searching for years for a constitutional conservative. You fit the bill.

[Michael Knowles]

So I understand this was a pretty rowdy, interesting lunch. Take us behind the scenes. What happened?

[Ted Cruz]

We talked about a number of things, including the need to allow each senator to introduce amendments and have those amendments voted on.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay.

[Ted Cruz]

You know, when we bring up a piece of legislation, it's never supposed to be the case that you bring a piece of legislation to the Senate floor and then that is the beginning and the end. That then would represent a simple binary choice. All in or all out? All good or all bad. The way the Senate was formed is such that every member is supposed to have access to unlimited debate and unlimited opportunities to introduce amendments. It hasn't been working like that lately. There are a lot of reasons for that, modern, historical reasons. But the fact is there's now a widespread developing bipartisan concern that we're effectively nullifying the votes of most Americans who elected their senators.

[Michael Knowles]

Right, right.

[Mike Lee]

Look, Washington's broken. We know Washington's broken. One of the ways it's broken is the Senate doesn't operate. So we had at lunch today, whenever the Senate's in session, all the Republican senators have lunch together. So we have lunch together on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, all together. And. And these can be pretty raucous scatterings. I mean, we get some vigorous, sometimes Angry arguments. Today we had a big debate over amendments. The basic right, as Mike said, the most fundamental as a senator. Historically, for two centuries, you've had two powers. Unlimited debate. You can talk as long as you want, and unlimited amendment. You can offer any amendment you want.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay?

[Mike Lee]

The second one has been obliterated as a practical matter. Harry Reid, the Democratic leader, eliminated amendments, and then Mitch McConnell, the Republican leader, eliminated amendments. And what we have now instead is basically the leaders draft the bills in their office and they drop them fully complete on everyone. Everyone has to vote yes or no or shut everything down, and it's wholly corrupt. And so at lunch today, both Mike and I argued vigorously. Look, what we said to the other senators is, right now we have two senators and 98 people who stand around and waiting to see what those two senators are gonna do. And that's messed up. And I think we ought to go back to unlimited amendments. That's how the Senate used to operate. You could literally pull out a piece of paper and write an amendment, hand it in. And the argument they give against it is they say, well, someone may have to vote on a difficult amendment. Oh, my goodness, how terrifying.

[Michael Knowles]

Not a senator.

[Mike Lee]

And so they raise it as well. The Democrats will put some. You know, maybe the Democrats will put funding of the National Department of Kitten Rescue. And if you vote no, apparently you want kittens to die.

[Michael Knowles]

You hate kittens. Yeah.

[Mike Lee]

Well, guys, you know, man up. Yeah. Put on your big boy pants and decide how you want to vote. It's not the end of the world. If you decide, I can't stand the little furry critters, then defend that to your constituents. And if you decide I love me some kittens, okay, fine. Defend that to your constituents.

[Ted Cruz]

That's part of what's so hard about this, is that it puts you in a terrible position. You don't get to amend it, then you have to take it or leave it in its entirety. It's a simple binary choice. I love this bill. Love everything about it, or I hate this bill, hate everything about it. That's not right. That's not how the Senate was created. And what we've been doing is not only contrary to the Senate rules and history and tradition, it's also contrary to common sense.

[Mike Lee]

By the way, for the record and the fact check clarifiers, I love kittens.

[Michael Knowles]

You are not gonna vote. Okay. Well, it's good.

[Mike Lee]

I'm glad.

[Michael Knowles]

Yes.

[Mike Lee]

Yesterday, I texted my daughter Caroline, a cute little picture of a kitten, just.

[Michael Knowles]

Just because I am relieved to hear that, you know, this is a very interesting point because I think when people think about what the Senate does, people always think about the issues. Okay, it's this issue and you're for it or you're against it. But what you're talking about is a matter of process. And the process here is in many ways just as important, maybe more important than the issues themselves, because the Senate is supposed to be the greatest deliberative body in the world, and yet there's very little deliberating going on.

[Ted Cruz]

Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. The process precedes and is antecedent to the policy. It's very difficult to get to good policy. It's also very difficult to get to accountable government in a constitutional republic like ours, unless you have individual members, once they are elected, being able to make an informed decision about legislation and being able to improve it as they see errors.

[Mike Lee]

So, and you know, the word might just use their accountability. It matters a lot. Where do you want a bill drafted? Do you want it in a smoke filled room hidden in Washington where the lobbyists make every corrupt deal on earth?

[Michael Knowles]

Right.

[Mike Lee]

Or do you want it in the open? Do you want it in the floor of the Senate where if you've got a provision you support, stand up, defend it, and actually face argument on the other side? Right. Having an open amendment process is how you actually have accountability, where the people can see what are the decisions being made by our elected officials.

[Michael Knowles]

This is one thing you've really shown me, and I think you've shown to the audience on this show, is just how much the personal relationships here matter. You know, Senator so and so makes this speech and you heard something on the floor and then you responded in a certain way or maybe over lunch, you had these arguments. So I have to ask you something that I typically only ask when I'm on a double date. You know, I'm speaking to a married couple. How'd you meet? How'd you meet?

[Ted Cruz]

You know, I felt like I had known Ted Cruz for a long time before I ever actually met him. We had a number of common acquaintances. We both clerked at the Supreme Court. Not at the same time. In fact, I saw Ted Cruz argue in the Supreme Court several times long before I had ever met him.

[Michael Knowles]

Oh, wow.

[Ted Cruz]

He's very good at it. By the way. Shortly after I got elected to the Senate in 2010, we were both in town in Washington for the Federalist Society Symposium. I was also here from for some Senate orientation meetings. I got a call from Ted Cruz saying, hey, I'm Ted Cruz. I'd like to meet you. I thought, this is great. This is a guy who has a lot of common friends. I need to finally meet him. So he came by, we went down to my office that was then in the basement of the Russell Building, and he confided in me that he was thinking about running for the United States Senate from Texas in 2012. And I said, okay, in that case, we need to talk. So we went on a walk around the Capitol grounds, talking about every conceivable legal, political, and constitutional issue for the next two hours. And at the end of it, I said, look, it's highly unlikely that I will ever in this lifetime meet somebody who is this close to being my ideological twin. If you run for any federal office, I will endorse you.

[Michael Knowles]

That's. You know, actually you bring up this point that I was. I was thinking about with both of you. You both came to real national prominence in the days, those wonderful old days of the Tea Party movement, when there was so much energy behind the conservative cause and specifically a pro liberty, pro constitutional cause. Where does that stand now? Because, you know, as you talk about discussing all these court cases and all these sorts of things, I don't think every one of our politicians necessarily does that. So where are we? Where does the cause of liberty stand today?

[Mike Lee]

Well, let me say this. By ordinary measures, by historical measures, neither Mike nor I have any business being in the U.S. senate. It is bizarre that we're there on a whole lot of fronts. For both Mike and me, the first office either one of us was ever elected to was U.S. senate.

[Michael Knowles]

That's pretty good.

[Mike Lee]

That's weird. Mike, when he was elected. So Mike was elected to the Senate two years before I was.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah.

[Mike Lee]

Mike Lee was the first U.S. supreme Court clerk in the history of the United States of America to be elected to the Senate. He actually was elected simultaneously with the other first clerk, which is Richard Blumenthal, who had clerked for Brennan on the Supreme Court. So the two of them together became the very first clerks ever.

[Ted Cruz]

Now, veto clerk and a Brennan clerk. We had to balance out each other.

[Mike Lee]

Now, think about for a second. That's weird, actually, that it took until 2010 for a Supreme Court clerk to get elected.

[Michael Knowles]

That is.

[Mike Lee]

Yeah. Part of the reason is most Supreme Court clerks are geeky academic. They're not the robust, strapping examples of manhood.

[Michael Knowles]

A couple of Cary Grants over here, right?

[Ted Cruz]

Movie star quality.

[Mike Lee]

That's right. So, look, Mike and I are both law nerds. We met at FedSoc. FedSoc is law nerd prom.

[Michael Knowles]

The Federalist Society.

[Mike Lee]

Yes, it is. Everyone together. And so we met. Mike had just been elected to the Senate. I was planning to announce my Senate campaign, like, a couple months later. And so I remember I went to his basement office. He was still in. Like, when you're newly elected to the Senate, they stick you in this tiny little basement office for a few months. It's kind of hazing, basically. Right. But I remember walking with him. You were filing your form requesting what committees to be on. So I walked with Mike while he. You know why he's on Judiciary Committee? Because he filed that form saying, I want to be on Judiciary Committee. And we talked about all sorts of legal issues. I remember the issue, though, at the time, there had been. I think it was a GAO report that had come out just recently that said the total value of all Federal land was $14 trillion. Now, at the time, the national debt was also $14 trillion. Says something that. That was $8 trillion ago. Right.

[Michael Knowles]

The good old days.

[Mike Lee]

But those numbers. And that was coincidental. But that suggested to both of us a natural and really elegant solution. Sell the damn land, pay off the debt, and by the way, keep the parks. That's fine. The parks are very small percentage. But sell all the rest of it. Yeah. That connection, I think, was important. And you're right. It was the time of the Tea Party. We were focused on rein in spending, rein in debt, defend liberty, believe in civil liberties. By the way, that. Look, both Mike and I are passionate about the Bill of Rights and protecting civil liberties, but both Mike and I also ran underdog campaigns. And so one of the things I think would be helpful to actually, before even talking about how you got elected to the Senate, it's worth folks understanding where Mike comes from. So Mike's dad was Rex Lee. He was the US Solicitor General under Ronald Reagan. He was a legendary Supreme Court advocate, one of the finest Supreme Court advocates to have ever lived. What was it like growing up in Rex Lee's house? What was the dinner table like?

[Ted Cruz]

My dad was a fantastic person. American Bar Association Journal did a piece on him while he was Solicitor General and described him as Huck Finn in a morning suit. Because he was folksy, he was relatable, he was quirky. You know, he didn't act like somebody who thought a lot of himself. At the same time, he focused a lot on and loved the law and loved the Constitution. I think I was 30 before I realized that not every family discusses the presentment clause around the dinner table.

[Michael Knowles]

Just most families. Some do not just normal families.

[Ted Cruz]

We talked about these things. I remember when my dad first explained Roe versus Wade to me, and I was about nine or 10 years old, and I asked him the question, okay, so separate and apart from what gives them authority as federal judges to make this determination? Why is this a federal issue rather than a state issue? And I thought my dad was gonna tear up right then.

[Michael Knowles]

My boy. My boy. Yes, yes.

[Ted Cruz]

Got one child who listens out of seven.

[Mike Lee]

Wow.

[Michael Knowles]

I mean, that's a tremendous formation. And then you go and you clerk.

[Mike Lee]

At the Supreme Court, and you do need to. Before the clerking, I want to take an even greater digression and understand that as honorable as the lineage is, there also is some murky. So in your ancestry is the story of murder.

[Ted Cruz]

Yeah, look, I could write volumes on this one. My great, great grandfather was a guy named John D. Lee.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay.

[Ted Cruz]

John D. Lee was a Mormon pioneer, one of the early settlers of Utah. He was executed on federal murder charges.

[Mike Lee]

Really?

[Ted Cruz]

For a crime?

[Mike Lee]

He was kidding.

[Michael Knowles]

Wow.

[Ted Cruz]

A crime he didn't commit. He was acting under military orders, and he didn't actually kill anyone. He was blamed for the sins of a couple of other people. Isaac Haight and Philip Clingan Smith.

[Michael Knowles]

But of course, Senator Lee defending his family here. Okay.

[Ted Cruz]

All right. And then his grandson, my grandfather, was himself the victim of murder. He was murdered just a couple months before my dad was born. And his murderer was tried for murder for. For reasons we've never been able to understand. After the trial went on for several weeks, just before the case went to the jury, the prosecutor got weak kneed. Prosecutor decided to allow the defendant to plead out to the lesser included crime of manslaughter.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay.

[Ted Cruz]

Then the judge let him out on time served in pretrial custody. But my dad was 18 before he had any idea his father was murdered. His mother remarried, and my dad grew up just being told that his father died in a hunting accident.

[Michael Knowles]

Wow. On the point, not the victim of the murder, but on the murderer question, I will admit, on this show, since we're just among friends, I too have a murderer in my family line. I just found this out. One of my ancestors who was on the Mayflower, John Billington, was the first man in the new world to be executed for being a murderer. So really, I too descend from a certain degenerate. Did he do it years ago? Oh, he did it. This guy was notorious. He totally did it.

[Ted Cruz]

Well, but in Texas, Ted tells me that it's a defense to murder if the victim needed killing.

[Mike Lee]

That is absolutely True. So I'm not aware of any murderers in my ancestry.

[Michael Knowles]

Good.

[Mike Lee]

But I may have you beat on one thing, which is I have had boots made by a murderer. So when I was Texas SG in Huntsville, in the prison, a lot of the state officials would get boots made by a guy who was in Huntsville, and his name was Darby, and he was there for double homicide, and he was a leathersmith. He was very, very, very skilled. And so I went to get fitted, and it was measured to your foot. So you stand, and it's kind of. Darby was Simon, probably early 60s, skinny little guy, but who had committed two murders. And it's interesting when you have a double murderer who tells you, okay, stand still. You actually just stand still. You're like, all right, I'm not gonna screw with you. You can measure. So I had the boots being made, designed, had the seal of Texas on it. I was really psyched. And then, like, a month or two later, I got a call from the prison, and the warden said, well, Ted, I got some bad news. You're not gonna get your boots. They said, yeah, we're not letting Darby handle sharp instruments to him.

[Michael Knowles]

I guess that's common sense. That really should.

[Mike Lee]

So I don't know what happened, but Darby got out of the boot making business, and I never got the boots that I had planned to buy from the prison. I never got them.

[Ted Cruz]

You know, we couldn't have made that discovery before. You're fitting. He must have liked you, though. He had the opportunity.

[Mike Lee]

You were vulnerable, and I guess that's true. You made it out not to have been shanked on my trip to the prison.

[Michael Knowles]

You know, I would like to take this question from the literal killing to a more metaphorical killing for a moment, because I am not a lawyer, I am no expert on the Constitution. I don't know anything about these things. Both of you gentlemen do. And so I want to know. You talk about discussing Roe vs. Wade around the table. It seems to me we have gone a very far way from the original understanding of our constitutional republic to where we are now. Since you guys know the case history here, what do you trace that back to? What are the moments that really just launched the country in a new direction?

[Ted Cruz]

Senator Lee, there's one day that, for me, stands in infamy in American history. Now, look, there are a lot of infamous days in American history, but there's one that I think, relative to its importance, doesn't get the coverage it deserves. Yeah, April 12, 1937. Two days, two years to the day after the Supreme Court had moved into its gigantic marble palace that it's occupied since 1935. The Supreme Court decided a case called NLRB v. Jones and Laughlin Steel Company. It effectively, through a vote of five black robe wearing lawyers, amended the Constitution without going through the Article 5 process of actually amending it and changed the commerce clause, Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3, from the provision giving Congress to regulate actual interstate commerce channels, instrumentalities of interstate commerce and things and persons moving in interstate commerce to the substantially affecting interstate commerce or the things that might in the aggregate have an economic impact that might in turn be interstate in its effect. That was a dramatic transformation away from the structural protections of federalism and separation of powers. It eroded federalism by giving more power to Washington D.C. it culminated over the next few years, inevitably in Congress all of a sudden saying, oh my gosh, we've now got all those power over all these regulatory issues like labor, manufacturing and agriculture and mining, that while economic in nature, take place in one state at one time, all of a sudden they couldn't handle it. So they delegated all of it out to unelected, unaccountable bureaucrats, thus eroding separation of power.

[Michael Knowles]

Senator Lee, I hope you forgive me for laughing during that answer, because this is why I'm glad that I asked you the question. If you had asked me to pinpoint that, I don't think I would have been able to pinpoint that moment. And yet what you're describing is a major change in how power moves in the country.

[Mike Lee]

I will say what you just saw illustrates two things. Number one, why both Mike's staff and my staff get scared when we get together and start geeking out on law, because we both get really, really happy, right? But secondly, look, I wouldn't point to any one decision. There've been a lot of decisions that were problematic. What I would point to is the rise of the activist court, which really got bad. Starting in the 60s and 70s, the framers referred to the courts as the least dangerous branch because they couldn't make the law, they couldn't enforce the law. All they were charged to do was interpret it and apply it in cases and controversies before them. Starting really in the 60s and 70s, the left decided, you know what, it's too hard to actually go through the democratic process. It's too hard to actually convince our fellow citizens of our policy ideas. All we gotta do is get five justices to decree what we like and suddenly the law can be changed. And I have to admit, in the process of this, many of the Worst judicial activists on the court were put there by Republicans.

[Michael Knowles]

It's one of the great iron answers.

[Mike Lee]

Most. If you look at Earl Warren and Bill Brennan, they were both put there by Dwight D. Eisenhower. Earl Warren led the Warren court. Remember, under Nixon, there was impeach Earl Warren bumper stickers. William Brennan led the left on the court for three decades. Now, let's start with those. But look, not only Warren and Brennan, you've got Nixon appointed. Harry Blackmun, the author of Roe vs. Wade, was a Republican appointee. John Paul Stevens. Gerald Ford put John Paul Stevens on board. The leader of the left for decades, David souter, Sandra Day O'Connor, all of these were Republican nominees. If you look at it, Democrats bat almost a thousand. To use a baseball analogy, virtually every one of their nominees does exactly what Democratic politicians would want them to do in any close contested case. Republicans, at best, bat.500. And it's because too many of our elected officials don't really give a damn. And it's because we don't demand a proven, demonstrated record.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah.

[Mike Lee]

So listen, I have publicly advocated for both of the vacancies that occurred under Donald Trump. I urge the president emphatically both times, to appoint Mike Lee.

[Ted Cruz]

That would be great to get rid of me.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah. Get him out of the Senate, send him to that marble palace.

[Mike Lee]

Listen, if I had won in 2016, Mike would be on the court right now. Yeah. Mike is on President Trump's list of 21. In fact, interestingly enough, the Lee family together represents nearly 10% of the list, because his brother Tom is on the list.

[Michael Knowles]

Wow.

[Mike Lee]

One was on. Tom was on the first 11, and Mike was on the second 10. So they disagree on which of the two lists is better. But I made the case to Trump to pence over and over again for both vacancies. If you want someone who we know that we know, that we know will follow the Constitution no matter what. And you know how you know that?

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah.

[Mike Lee]

It's when they've been kicked in the teeth and they keep on going. You know what I want in Supreme Court Justices? Someone who hates DC Cocktail parties. The worst dynamic on Supreme Court Justices is they want to be loved, they want to be accepted, they read the.

[Michael Knowles]

Newspaper, they want to be celebrated by.

[Mike Lee]

The newspaper, by the academy. The way you do it is you move left, left, left, left, left. When I'm looking for a judicial nominee, give me someone who's been through the battles, has been vilified and hasn't blinked, and has been faithful to the law and Constitution that is desperately needed Gentlemen.

[Michael Knowles]

We have about one minute left, but I do want to get your thoughts on one legal issue and political issue that is coming up right now. And it is so egregious to me. I need to know what you think. This is from Evan. This is about Uber Eats. Uber Eats has now declared, in this moment of the protests and Black Lives Matter, that they're going to waive delivery fees for black owned businesses, however that is determined.

[Ted Cruz]

And.

[Michael Knowles]

And they're gonna continue to keep delivery fees for white owned businesses, however that is determined. Seems to me, Look, I'm not terribly educated on the law. This can't possibly be right.

[Mike Lee]

I think it's plainly illegal, Okay? I think they will be sued and they will lose every one of the lawsuits. You cannot discriminate under federal civil rights law. Explicitly discriminate based on race and charge one set of prices to one race and another set of prices to another race. That is against the law. And it's a good example of how these guys look. They want a virtue signal. They want a virtue signal. Okay, fine. This is gonna be a very expensive virtue signal because they're gonna be some class action lawyers ready to sue them and they got no defense. They are openly, willfully, defiantly ignoring federal civil rights law.

[Ted Cruz]

Senator Lee, one question that I would ask to any company that was considering a policy like this is, why would you want to do this when we've spent decades as a country overcoming situations where people make business decisions like this that are inexplicable? You can draw lines in many areas. If you want to, you can offer a discount to seniors. If you want to, you can offer a discount to members of your Elks Lodge, I suppose, if you want to. But federal civil rights law draws a pretty bright line around race. If you were to switch the races out and say, I'm going to offer this price to this race and that price to another, that would be problematic. I agree with Ted. I can't imagine this could possibly be upheld as lawful even if it were. Especially if it were. Do you really want that outcome?

[Michael Knowles]

Right. This is the point.

[Ted Cruz]

Do you want to live in a country where that happens, where that's lawful? I don't think so.

[Michael Knowles]

There's the legal question, there's the political question. We have just seconds left. But now that we've covered the law, we've covered politics, we've covered the Constitution, I need to get to a philosophical question that was asked urgently by one of our viewers. This is from Ryan. Is a hot dog a sandwich?

[Mike Lee]

Senator Cruz, I know this is a big Internet and Twitter thing, but I have to admit, I just don't give a damn. I really, I would like to care about this. I love hot dogs. When I was in high school, my first date that I would take girls on was to James Coney island and get chili cheese dogs because I can't stand people who are pretentious. And it's impossible to be pretentious when you've got cheese dribbling down your shirt. That is a fact. So hot dogs are awesome. It's what I have at baseball games. It's what I have at movie theaters. But whether it's not or not, it's a sandwich, I just don't care.

[Michael Knowles]

This was an evasive political answer, Senator, if you don't mind my saying so.

[Ted Cruz]

Senator Lee, that was a weak sauce answer. I've got to answer this question. It's not a sandwich. It's not that it doesn't deserve to be in the category of sandwich. It's not that it's inferior. It's its own genre. It's its own species. So to call it a sandwich doesn't give it the dignity that it deserves. It's its own category. So it's sort of like debating whether or not a corn dog would be a sandwich. Well, it's surrounded by bread. Not really a sandwich. It's a different genre.

[Michael Knowles]

I can tell that this debate could continue for many, many hours, but unfortunately, we're out of time. Senator Lee, thank you so much for being here. Of course, Senator Cruz. I'll see you very soon. I'm Michael Knowles. This is Verdict with Ted Cruz.

[Mike Lee]

This episode of Verdict with Ted Cruz is being brought to you by Jobs.

[Ted Cruz]

Freedom and Security pac, a political action.

[Mike Lee]

Committee dedicated to supporting conservative causes, organizations and candid across the country.

[Ted Cruz]

In 2022, jobs, freedom and Security PAC.

[Mike Lee]

Plans to donate to conservative candidates running for Congress and help the Republican Party across the nation.